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[Itchy//Tasty]

Really tiny moment in the game that was brilliant, and echoed another similar moment in Bioshock 1: When you're inspecting something, and then turn around 360 degrees and there's a Boy of Silence standing like RIGHT in front of you. I jumped. You win this round, Ken.

 

[spirity]

This game never needed a more human and belivable city, because it clashes with the concept it tries to show (no, its not cut because of the time travel woobley thing you say). It needed to look like a giant beautiful diorama, and they accomplish this perfectly. Its like Disneyland's Main Street, a very beautiful place, but its only a facade (I dont mean Disneyland in a twisted sense like in Infinite, in Disneyland is a facade because its only a park that wants to bring americana childhood memories not a city for people to live, while in Infinite it serves a real and dark purpose), it would never work in real life, thats why even if despising other races, they still need cheap human labour for the thing to work.
The beautiful architecture is only something to hide the horrible society that lives in there.

The archetypal 'a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there'.

 

[Zeliard]

Where was this in the game?

It's the card Robert Lutece gives you in this scene:





The look on Elzabeth's face says it all. Seems an appropriate expression to wear when the Luteces are at it again.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

The archetypal 'a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there'.

Well, I would live there if it wasnt for the dark society behind it lol
I love this architecture.

 

[icespide]

dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

holy shit waaaaaaaaaaaaaat

 

[EliteArtist]

Just clicked for me that the baptism at the start of the game is how they readjust the people to the thinner air in Columbia. Just a small thing i never really figured out till post game.

 

[Zeliard]

Lutrece's juggling with baseballs just before the fair at the start, as seen through the telescope. If you run to that area they're not there.

The Lutece(s) were playing dice ball with the universe.

 

[Red]

My mind keeps floating back to Infinite since I've finished.

I'm trying to pick out more of the meta-narrative... I don't want to reach too far and make tenuous connections, but there's one thing in particular that struck me. The quote about false memories from Lutece, right at the game's start. In the absence of memory, the subject creates false memory. Maybe a commentary on player speculation. Of course on a surface level it refers to Booker's confusion about his purpose in Columbia. But Levine must have known players would be making their own connections using the breadcrumb trail of clues.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Wait, how is Anna and Elizabeth the same person? I thought that Anna was his wife and Liz their daughter and the baby? I didn't see anywhere in-game how Anna is Liz.

How did you miss this?

Did you not finish the game?

Did the game crash after the airship fight?

 

[SolsticeZero]

This game has had an effect on me. Columbia was even in my dream last night. God I love it when my brain gets gangbanged like this.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

This game has had an effect on me. Columbia was even in my dream last night. God I love it when my brain gets gangbanged like this.

They day after I beated I also dreamed about the game.

 

[DarkKyo]

I really hope I get the chance to buy the damn soundtrack. This track is so good, especially over the credits.

I love that track. Makes me think of The Fountain.

 

[IronRinn]

I absolutely loved this game and reading through this thread has been great, seeing people pointing out stuff I may have missed and while I don't have anything to add to the discussion (you guys are thorough) I did notice one thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned. Like many, I immediately started a new game and, while walking on the beach with Elizabeth, I got a bit of dialog that I didn't remember the first time. She asks him how old he is and he states "South of forty and north of you."

The only thing that doesn't quite make a ton of sense there is that Wounded Knee was in December of 1890 and Infinite takes place in 1912. I mean, I suppose he could have been 16-17 at the massacre, although I thought the insignia he had on the wall of his office put him around a Sergeant. I forget. I suppose that could be the case in 1890. Or maybe that was just his rank when he left the army. Hell, I guess he could have been lying about his age too.

 

[Liamario]

This may have been answered, but what was the "debt"?

 

[Keyser Soze]

This may have been answered, but what was the "debt"?

Gambling debt

 

[Liamario]

Gambling debt

I thought that was the case. thanks.

 

[IronRinn]

This may have been answered, but what was the "debt"?

Booker had accrued significant gambling debts which Comstock then purchased in order to pressure him into giving him Anna.

 

[Liamario]

Booker had accrued significant gambling debts which Comstock then purchased in order to pressure him into giving him Anna.

But then, how did comstock get rid of the debt? Time loop?

 

[Voice of Reason]

dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuck

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Maybe I[m going crazy, but there's a guy at the start of the game who seemingly follows you around Columbia. He's sitting on a stoop and talks about how fit you are, then he appears later, whistling and asks how you are.

 

[Keyser Soze]

But then, how did comstock get rid of the debt? Time loop?

Comstock is rich, he could easily pay it of.

It is however not directly explained in he game how Comstock got rich.

 

[kai3345]

dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

fuuuuucckkkk

 

[IronRinn]

But then, how did comstock get rid of the debt? Time loop?

No, he just bought it. He paid the people who Booker owed money to and then Booker owed him. Banks still do it with thing like mortgages and loans. They simply sell the account to someone else, transferring the debt.

 

[Liamario]

No, he just bought it. He paid the people who Booker owed money to and then Booker owed him. Banks still do it with thing like mortgages and loans. They simply sell the account to someone else, transferring the debt.

But if Comstock and Booker are one and the same, how did comstock pay off the debt when he was booker.

 

[SolsticeZero]

But if Comstock and Booker are on and the same, how did comstock pay off the debt when he was booker.

Comstock led a life of Religious Reightousness, so he never accrued the debt in the first place

 

[show me your skeleton]

Really tiny moment in the game that was brilliant, and echoed another similar moment in Bioshock 1: When you're inspecting something, and then turn around 360 degrees and there's a Boy of Silence standing like RIGHT in front of you. I jumped. You win this round, Ken.

i'm pretty certain the boys of silence were jumped about the game, in terms of where they'd fit in. they don't have any movement animations, do they? also considering they're so clearly designed to 'listen', they're just security cameras.

But if Comstock and Booker are one and the same, how did comstock pay off the debt when he was booker.

the debt was amassased after the baptism. comstock became inspired/obsessed with his religious-awakening & didn't fall to gambling, drinking, selling babies. booker, without that redemption, fell on really hard times.

 

[IronRinn]

But if Comstock and Booker are on and the same, how did comstock pay off the debt when he was booker.

Because they exist in separate dimensions. Comstock just opened a tear into Booker's dimension and paid the people Booker owed money to.

 

[Liamario]

Comstock led a life of Religious Reightousness, so he never accrued the debt in the first place

I see. So the debt happened after he chose baptism- in the comstock time line.

 

[sonicmj1]

The only thing that doesn't quite make a ton of sense there is that Wounded Knee was in December of 1890 and Infinite takes place in 1912. I mean, I suppose he could have been 16-17 at the massacre, although I thought the insignia he had on the wall of his office put him around a Sergeant. I forget. I suppose that could be the case in 1890. Or maybe that was just his rank when he left the army. Hell, I guess he could have been lying about his age too.

Building on this, Wounded Knee was in 1890, and Columbia launched in 1898. How did Comstock get the clout and political support for the Columbia project from nothing in just eight years?

A related question for me also comes from Comstock's "Archangel" that brings him his prophecies. Naturally, many of these come from the rifts created by the Lutece machine.

So which came first; the city or the rifts? If the rifts came first, what drew Comstock and Lutece together? If the city came first, how did Comstock create his cult of personality before his gift of prophecy? What inspired him to build the city?

I think some answers are coming together in my head, but the timeline there is a little muddled for me.

On the whole, the narrative came together really well for me at the end, and didn't need much explanation once I gave it a little bit of thought. It's a really impressive game.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

does anything change if you pick the cage instead of the bird and vice versa?

 

[SolsticeZero]

I see. So the debt happened after he chose baptism- in the comstock time line.

Exactly. Gambling and drinking are what Booker used to cope with Wounded Knee. Religion is how Comstock coped.

does anything change if you pick the cage instead of the bird and vice versa?

Nope. It pretty much just shows the futility of minor variables in the grand pictures. Orchestrated perfectly, if you ask me.

 

[Dresden]

dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

oh my

 

[raphier]

So..the whole dept thing was pointless. the dept collector collects dept but also give chance to redemption.

if you look at the end, all other Elizabeths wear the one that is opposite of your choice. It's a direct symbolism to the fact this Booker is different of all the previous
Bookers.

 

[Jibbed]

does anything change if you pick the cage instead of the bird and vice versa?

Not that anyone's aware of.

I've just been looking at the Wikipedia page of the hymn 'Will the circle be unbroken?'.. my mind has been blown further. It was written in 1907 (5 years prior to the events of Infinite), and references 'a better home in the sky', 'the dying savior', 'family is parted' and of course, unbroken circles.

GUYS. IT REALLY HAPPENED.

GUYS?

 

[IronRinn]

does anything change if you pick the cage instead of the bird and vice versa?

On my new run through I chose the Cage instead of the Bird. Haven't gotten far enough to see if there is a change. I did like that instead of just shooting the guy in the airship station, like I did the first time, I just kept asking for my ticket and he eventually stabbed me in the hand, which led to Elizabeth wrapping my hand in a piece of cloth. So now my right hand has a knife wound right through the AD and a piece of Elizabeth's dress wrapped around it. Nothing major but still, they took the time to put it in.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Not that anyone's aware of.

I've just been looking at the Wikipedia page of the hymn 'Will the circle be unbroken?'.. my mind has been blown further. It was written in 1907 (5 years prior to the events of Infinite), and references 'a better home in the sky', 'the dying savior', 'family is parted' and of course, unbroken circles.

GUYS. IT REALLY HAPPENED.

GUYS?

Ken Levine is a time traveler! He IS the Luteces!

 

[show me your skeleton]

Building on this, Wounded Knee was in 1890, and Columbia launched in 1898. How did Comstock get the clout and political support for the Columbia project from nothing in just eight years?

A related question for me also comes from Comstock's "Archangel" that brings him his prophecies. Naturally, many of these come from the rifts created by the Lutece machine.

So which came first; the city or the rifts? If the rifts came first, what drew Comstock and Lutece together? If the city came first, how did Comstock create his cult of personality before his gift of prophecy? What inspired him to build the city?

i see it as a time-loop, both of them happened because they both happened, if that makes any kind of sense?
he saw the visions because of lutece's machine working in the future, which only could have been built because comstock saw the visions.

i assume comstock's religious zeal & charisma made him a pretty liked politician, coupled with his desire to do anything in order to win. this is a person who did some seriously awful things just a few years prior at the age of 16 (or so). his doctrine/political stance was tapping into the fears of the time as well.
i could've missed something though.

Not that anyone's aware of.

I've just been looking at the Wikipedia page of the hymn 'Will the circle be unbroken?'.. my mind has been blown further. It was written in 1907 (5 years prior to the events of Infinite), and references 'a better home in the sky', 'the dying savior', 'family is parted' and of course, unbroken circles.

GUYS. IT REALLY HAPPENED.

GUYS?

i'm sure quite a lot of protestant literature mentions a better home in the sky

 

[Jibbed]

Ken Levine is a time traveler! He IS the Luteces!

Ken Lev.. Lutece?

Oh my god.

 

[UV-6]

I totally missed this part in the game. Where was it?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

dunno if anyone posted this, but I'm freaking out

Wow, that's definitely song bird. I don't know what to make of this.

Double mind fuck for me as I was just listening to Comstock's second voxophone.

One man goes into the waters of baptism. A different man comes out, born again. But who is that man who lies submerged? Perhaps that swimmer is both sinner and saint, until he is reveals unto the eyes of man.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

The look on Elzabeth's face says it all. Seems an appropriate expression to wear when the Luteces are at it again.

She has some seriously amazing expressions throughout the entire game. I think I mentioned in the earlier thread, but when you're on the elevator to Finkton and Fink is talking about how he wants YOU and not Liz, she gives you this half smile half "what the FUCK is he talking about?" look, and there's no uncanny valley, no nothing. It's just perfect.

 

[megalowho]

Building on this, Wounded Knee was in 1890, and Columbia launched in 1898. How did Comstock get the clout and political support for the Columbia project from nothing in just eight years?

A related question for me also comes from Comstock's "Archangel" that brings him his prophecies. Naturally, many of these come from the rifts created by the Lutece machine.

So which came first; the city or the rifts? If the rifts came first, what drew Comstock and Lutece together? If the city came first, how did Comstock create his cult of personality before his gift of prophecy? What inspired him to build the city?

I think some answers are coming together in my head, but the timeline there is a little muddled for me.

On the whole, the narrative came together really well for me at the end, and didn't need much explanation once I gave it a little bit of thought. It's a really impressive game.

This timeline on Columbia may not be perfect but it might clear up some of your questions. Comstock believes that God is showing him visions of the future via Lutece's invention early on in his born again years. A universe where his flying city cleanses the world at the hands of his daughter is interpreted as prophecy, or at least presented as such. I am not aware if their first encounter is mentioned explicitly in the game. Debuting a vision for what Columbia could be and mean for American Exceptionalism at the 1893 Worlds Fair was the driving force for its creation and backing by the U.S. Govt and probably gave the movement a good amount of exposure.

Also worth noting is that the Founders are a leadership group led by Comstock that we don't get a ton of information on in the main game, aside from Fink and environmental clues. While the main points on how Columbia was introduced to the public, funded and launched are there, there's a lot of room for Irrational to fill in some blanks if they choose to.

 

[Voice of Reason]

She has some seriously amazing expressions throughout the entire game. I think I mentioned in the earlier thread, but when you're on the elevator to Finkton and Fink is talking about how he wants YOU and not Liz, she gives you this half smile half "what the FUCK is he talking about?" look, and there's no uncanny valley, no nothing. It's just perfect.

Also, in the same scene Zeliard screenshotted, if you just stand there after the Luteces leave, she gives this WTF look while looking at you and then back at the piano, then back at you, and so forth.

 

[Zeliard]

But if Comstock and Booker are one and the same, how did comstock pay off the debt when he was booker.

Comstock was created at the baptism, when he underwent the process, felt freed of sins, and then eventually reconciled his past heinous actions as mandated by God to bolster the white man and Comstock's personal view of what America is and ought to be. He never accrued any debt because he never gambled.

The Booker who didn't take the baptism went on to a hard, depressed life where he had a daughter (Anna), but lost his wife, turned to gambling, and then gave up Anna as a last-ditch desperate effort to pay off his debts before having a last-minute change of heart.

Booker unlike Comstock was never able to forgive himself for his actions during the American Indian wars. That's the primary difference between the two men, and that contrast is basically what led to everything else.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Also, in the same scene Zeliard screenshotted, if you just stand there after the Luteces leave, she gives this WTF look while looking at you and then back at the piano, then back at you, and so forth.

Awesome. I'm on my 2nd playthrough on Hard now, will definitely keep an eye out for that.

 

[Dachande]

I've got some questions from the end of the game, sorry if they've been answered already...

How does Elizabeth become as powerful as she is? She's just a regular girl when Comstock takes her, right? Do the Luteces experiment on her after the snatch to give her her powers or something? That doesn't seem to be explained.

Do they ever explain where Songbird comes from or what exactly it is? I assume it's something the Luteces made at some point, but that's never elaborated on.

 

[spirity]

The Lutrece's are pretty funny. If you shoot at them in the room they offer you the shield, they quip about it. If you keep bumping into the female Lutrece after you've flipped the coin, she says stuff like "we won't go until you do" and "if you keep this up i'll have to repeat myself" (which she does start doing of course).

 

[DarkKyo]

I've got some questions from the end of the game, sorry if they've been answered already...

How does Elizabeth become as powerful as she is? She's just a regular girl when Comstock takes her, right? Do the Luteces experiment on her after the snatch to give her her powers or something? That doesn't seem to be explained.

Do they ever explain where Songbird comes from or what exactly it is? I assume it's something the Luteces made at some point, but that's never elaborated on.

Yeah this one has been answered a billion times here.

With her pinky severed and existing in a different universe, she simultaneously exists in two dimensions. Her powers come from this fact. She has the ability to open/look at all worlds once the siphon isn't blocking her full power.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

I've got some questions from the end of the game, sorry if they've been answered already...

How does Elizabeth become as powerful as she is? She's just a regular girl when Comstock takes her, right? Do the Luteces experiment on her after the snatch to give her her powers or something? That doesn't seem to be explained.

Do they ever explain where Songbird comes from or what exactly it is? I assume it's something the Luteces made at some point, but that's never elaborated on.

I believe a vox recording explains that because her finger is in another world the universe gives her powers to fix things?

something about the universe doesn't like to mix its peas and carrots or something.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I think I audibly swore. I wasn't expecting a jump scare that late into the game, they got me good.

I had surmised, just reading around spoilers in the regular thread that something about them was involved in a big jump scare, and I remember seeing them standing on a bed in one of the trailers so throughout that whole building, I was "ready". I was even gearing up for it in the bank because I figured it'd be a sensible place to introduce those characters.

But yeah, I was NOT expecting it then. I also reacted with sudden and extreme violence.