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[Muchi Muchi Pink]

This thread is bad.

We have people putting words in each other's mouths.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Amneisac]

I think the joke is supposed to be "well maybe you'll like these ridiculously sexualized men better," although that's still close enough to "haha ur gay" to make me roll my eyes. It's sorta hard to tell from that sentence, though.

Still, Dragon's Crown is one of those rare games that dishes out its ludicrous over-the-top sexualized designs to both men and women, so I find it a little odd that it's being singled out by Kotaku here. The Amazon is hardly your typical "hot lady" character, either.

It really doesn't work like this. Usually in comics and games, men and women are BOTH sexualized in a way that appeals to men. Women don't usually fantasize about super huge jacked dudes, that's what men WANT to be. So you can't just oversexualize both and consider it even.

 

[Metrotab]

.

But it's not objectification. It's exaggeration of physical features. That's what the artist does and likes to do. Why is it bad that he does this? Help me understand this.

 

[Wellscha]

Do you call that an argument?

Someone defending that demeaning art style and sports an avatar that mirrors it? Talk about bias.

 

[Soriku]

I can't believe anyone thinks the response was not a juvenile attempt to call JS gay. Sure, it could mean something else, but the far most reasonable reading is that this is a pictorial version of "ur gay!"

I was on the fence about buying this game as is. I mostly play my Vita on my commute, and as a 34 year old professional I simply would not be comfortable with other adults watching me play as the sorceress or amazon. But what appears to be a juvenile and homophobic outburst from the designer means I definitely won't buy.

As far as sexual insults go this is pretty tame.

"You don't like these women...OK here's some muscular guys."

I mean...whatever man. This is hardly an outburst. Also I really recommend separating your thoughts on a game from something like this that a developer said, but it doesn't seem like you'd be comfortable playing it either way.

 

[Moral Panic]

Nope, there are plenty of other interpreations of Mr Kamitani's response that dont interpet it as either a) an insult, b) a veiled accusation of homosexuality or c) both.

Frankly, no there aren't. Read it again.

 

[Alucrid]

"Well, since you are gay I'm not expecting you to appreciate it."
Same stuff and doesn't sounds offensive.



Again, where is the insult, slur?

Because gay people don't appreciate the same things as straight people?

 

[aeolist]

"IT'S ART" ISN'T AN IMPENETRABLE DEFENSE

ART CAN BE SEXIST TOO

DEAR LORD

 

[SolidSnakex]

I would find it sexist if everyone else was normal proportions and every female character had the same figure.

Yeah, Kamitami seemed to make an effort to give variety. The females actually have the most variety in the game. They have three completely different body types among playable character. You've got a voluptuous character (Sorceress), a muscular character (Amazon) and a petite character (Elf). The male characters are two hulking beasts and a skinny dude.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

You don't follow that? The insult is saying have some gay sex since you don't like this style of woman. I don't know how to make it clearer, sorry.

No it's not.

 

[cutmeamango]

It really doesn't work like this. Usually in comics and games, men and women are BOTH sexualized in a way that appeals to men. Women don't usually fantasize about super huge jacked dudes, that's what men WANT to be. So you can't just oversexualize both and consider it even.

What does the collective cultural (or at least a large, discernible group of) women fantasize of and consider sexualized to them?

 

[Moral Panic]

"Well, since you are gay I'm not expecting you to appreciate it."
Same stuff and doesn't sounds offensive.



Again, where is the insult, slur?

That is quite offensive, and the fact you cant see that is a problem.

jschrier isn't his friend where he is doing some gentle ribbing.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Someone defending that demeaning art style and sports an avatar that mirrors it? Talk about bias.

He likes the artstyle. So what?. I'm not defending his rambling, but I certainly don't see how liking and using Dragon's Crown art as avatars makes people arguments any less valid.

 

[Persona86]

I rest my case.

*I pick up your case and throw it out of the window*

"Ouch!"

 

[Metrotab]

Someone defending that demeaning art style and sports an avatar that mirrors it? Talk about bias.

I don't think you have responded to my question a few pages back, but I'll gladly repeat it:

What's bad about designing sexy characters?

 

[kvothe]

Do arguments in threads like these ever change anyone's mind?

I'd love to jump in but it would only lead to personal frustration and zero satisfaction because the only people posting in threads like these are so steadfast in their position nothing good ever comes of it.

So tiring.

 

[aeolist]

What does the collective cultural (or at least a large, discernible group of) women fantasize of and consider sexualized to them?

in japan? largely more feminine men

here to i guess thanks to bieber

 

[Soriku]

i know this is rly hard for you people to understand

but

sexism against women is a bigger problem than sexism against men

it may not seem "fair" to you but women being an oppressed class for most of recorded history and still being underprivileged compared to men is actually less fair so you can go fuck yourselves if you don't like it

Yeah man, check out this objectification and totally sexist view of women:

http://s4.zerochan.net/Elf.%28Dragon27S.Crown%29.full.634037.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

lolz. Do you really think the intent with this game's art style is to be sexist?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Yeah I did. Tell me, how should I infer this extremely unclear comment? Should I make rash conclusions, especially considering when it's made by a foreign person who is not extremely literal in English?

This is like that thread about Kamiya where some Americans were harassing him on twitter and he posted something in English/Japanese that said something like "Good
night everyone and some stupid idiot foreigners." and people jumped on him and accused him of hating foreigners when really he was just shitting a few individuals.

I can see how people could see that extremely broken English as homophobic but the first time I read through it it came off as
more "So supposedly this guy thinks I'm
immature because I draw busty scantily clad women. Well surprise, I draw oversexualized men in this game too!" I'm not letting some obviously badly translated quote paint my whole picture of this guy as a homophobe, because I'm not going to pretend like I know what he's thinking.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

What a lot of arguing over a game with such shitty art.

 

[pwack]

I mean...whatever man. This is hardly an outburst. Also I really recommend separating your thoughts on a game from something like this that a developer said, but it doesn't seem like you'd be comfortable playing it either way.

It's a mixture of voting with my pocketbook, not enough time to get through my backlog already, and the uncomfortablity of playing in this public. 2 of 3 would have put me at "maybe buy," 3 of 3 puts me at "not buying"

 

[Kai Dracon]

You do understand that not everything has to be realistic right? especially in a game where magic is a thing?

It is video games. Do you lose your shit when Link gets slashed and go "he should be dead...this is unrealistic yo" or How the fuck does Cloud wield his giant ass sword?

it's an artitistic choice...regardless the reason for that choice. You don't like it for whatever reason? cool. But c'mon.

I find some poetic irony in the fact that a common argument for "justified" character designs - such as scantily clad females - is that it's not a simplistic form of sexism when a character design fits with the world surrounding it.

In other words, a realistic fantasy game in which only the females wear improbable bikini armor comes off looking pretty transparent.

By contrast, the characters in Dragon's Crown all fit in with both the other playable cast members and even the enemies. It's a world of hyperphillic extremes. Everything is Monty Python animation turned up to 11.

 

[Meccanical]

This Thread is no longer Video Games.

 

[Amneisac]

But it's not objectification. It's exaggeration of physical features. That's what the artist does and likes to do. Why is it bad that he does this? Help me understand this.

Yeah, because a lot of game designers design women with big hands and feet and other non-sexual organs, right?

 

[SYNTAX182]

the extreme detail and animation of the unrealistically oversized and exposed breasts perhaps?

But everything is exaggerated. Even the male characters. Are big breasts supposed to stay still? Should the men also wear bras because they're big man breasts are also exposed. About time vuloptous women get represented. It offends me that women have to be portrayed only as a skinny model in a magazine.

 

[Gravijah]

What's bad about designing sexy characters?

In a vacuum? Nothing in particular. Truth is, though, that "designing sexy characters" is about the only thing a large percentage of this medium does.

 

[Kokonoe]

Do arguments in threads like these ever change anyone's mind?

I'd love to jump in but it would only lead to personal frustration and zero satisfaction because the only people posting in threads like these are so steadfast in their position nothing good ever comes of it.

So tiring.

They do not, especially not when the discussion ends up being a back and forth slew of snide remarks.

 

[Lightning Lord]

This Thread is no longer Video Games.

It was hardly about video games to begin with.

 

[Persona86]

Do arguments in threads like these ever change anyone's mind?

I'd love to jump in but it would only lead to personal frustration and zero satisfaction because the only people posting in threads like these are so steadfast in their position nothing good ever comes of it.

So tiring.

No it's like those religious debate threads, around around in circles, nothing ever changes.

 

[aeolist]

Yeah man, check out this objectification and totally sexist view of women:



lolz. Do you really think the intent with this game's art style is to be sexist?

broken links are extremely sexist where have you been

 

[BHK3]

No it's not.

Yes it is.

 

[Schobeleth]

I'd like to point out that this kind of stuff is frowned upon here and does nothing for the discussion other than instigate fighting about the subject being taken personally.

All I meant with that post is that that particular game has been out for years, and yet, AFAIK, it got no such response from journalists and gamers. It's a completely absurd game with even crazier proportions (worse than Dragon's Crown actually, IMO) and yet nothing game from it.

Why now are people using this game to further their agenda? There have been plenty of games with scantily clad women since the beginning of gaming, I just don't understand why people are questioning it now.

 

[Lime]

the existence of straight male privilege in modern society means that objectification of women is more harmful than that of men

it's ok guys i just won the thread you can all go home now

This should be engraved into the walls of each and every gender and race-related thread and discussion on the Internet.

Because it amounts to probably 90% of all deflections of criticism of portrayal of race and gender.

 

[Takamura-San]

I don't think you have responded to my question a few pages back, but I'll gladly repeat it:

What's bad about designing sexy characters?

Designing oversexualized has been clarified "juvenile" for a long time, and it has been a valid argument. Being brought up on this game is a valid argument.

Kamitani's retort has no merit.

 

[shysaursoft]

I wonder if the people in this thread, accusing the burly dwarf image of being a homophobic slur, could watch Turkish oil wrestling and not instantly think everyone there was gay (which usually, they aren't). Just sayin.

I always assumed straight guys could appreciate well-defined men without any sexuality coming into it.

 

[Soriku]

broken links are extremely sexist where have you been

Works for me? Here you go though:

http://s4.zerochan.net/Elf.(Dragon'S.Crown).full.634037.jpg

 

[Persona86]

Yeah, because a lot of game designers design women with big hands and feet and other non-sexual organs, right?

Exaggeration of female design. Females tend to not have big hands and feet in the first place.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Schreier posts shitty article calling Kamitani a 14 year old.
Kamitani makes shitty post saying 'you don't like big boobed women? Have a big chested man instead.'

People are outraged at the 'homophobic outburst' claiming Kamitani is telling Schreier to 'have some gay sex.' Claims that anybody who doesn't react in an insulted manner is simply perpetuating homophobia.
The reaction is worse than the original article and response imo, at least we got some nice art out of those.

 

[Dead Man]

No it's not.

What is not what? He wasn't saying that, or saying that is not an insult, or what?

Edit: from your subsequent post I will assume the latter. If you had read the thread of conversation, you will see that I had prefaced the whole thing by saying 'if it was his intent to call him gay because he didn't appreciate the art, this is why calling him gay is offensive' then the rest followed. Try to keep up when replying, I know it is tempting to rub out a witty three word response.

Schreier posts shitty article calling Kamitani a 14 year old.
Kamitani makes shitty post saying 'you don't like big boobed women? Have a big chested man instead.'

People are outraged at the 'homophobic outburst' claiming Kamitani is telling Schreier to 'have some gay sex.'
The reaction is worse than the original article and response imo, at least we got some nice art out of those.

Oh, you are outraged that people are outraged. Cool. Very meta.

 

[2San]

What a lot of arguing over a game with such shitty art.

Well yeah, no point in arguing the gameplay, seeing Vanillaware's track record, which will be pretty shitty.

 

[Alucrid]

This is like that thread about Kamiya where some Americans were harassing him on twitter and he posted something in English/Japanese that said something like "Good
night everyone and some stupid idiot foreigners." and people jumped on him and accused him of hating foreigners when really he was just shitting a few individuals.

I can see how people could see that extremely broken English as homophobic but the first time I read through it it came off as
more "So supposedly this guy thinks I'm
immature because I draw busty scantily clad women. Well surprise, I draw oversexualized men in this game too!" I'm not letting some obviously badly translated quote paint my whole picture of this guy as a homophobe, because I'm not going to pretend like I know what he's thinking.

"It seems that Mr. JASON SCHREIER of kotaku is pleased also with neither sorceress nor amazon."

I think this sentence is pretty clear. Schreier doesn't like how the two characters look.


"The art of the direction which likes was prepared."

So how the hell does this end up as "Well surprise, I draw oversexualized men in this game too!"

and not

"Here's some of the art that he likes."

 

[Gravijah]

Why now are people using this game to further their agenda? There have been plenty of games with scantily clad women since the beginning of gaming, I just don't understand why people are questioning it now.

That's not true. People have been questioning the design of women in games for a long time now. Dragon's Crown is not a special case.

 

[V_Arnold]

Works for me? Here you go though:

http://s4.zerochan.net/Elf.(Dragon'S.Crown).full.634037.jpg

Works without tha apostrophe after Dragon

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

In a vacuum? Nothing in particular. Truth is, though, that "designing sexy characters" is about the only thing a large percentage of this medium does.

At least this time is actually good art.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

BAHAHAHA

Welcome to the club, brother! It's only a matter of time

Just had to check out that AmazonXSorceress thingy out of curiosity. Oh my

 

[BHK3]

Works for me? Here you go though:

http://s4.zerochan.net/Elf.(Dragon'S.Crown).full.634037.jpg

 

[robotzombie]

i know this is rly hard for you people to understand

but

sexism against women is a bigger problem than sexism against men

it may not seem "fair" to you but women being an oppressed class for most of recorded history and still being underprivileged compared to men is actually less fair so you can go fuck yourselves if you don't like it

Cool, so your response to people being treated unfairly is to treat others unfairly. That sounds like a great attitude that will certainly go a long way to achieve harmony

 

[tafer]

You don't follow that? The insult is saying have some gay sex since you don't like this style of woman. I don't know how to make it clearer, sorry

Doesn't look like sex at all, and even if it was, so what?

That is quite offensive, and the fact you cant see that is a problem.

Boy and now it got personal, I'm out.

 

[Metrotab]

In a vacuum? Nothing in particular. Truth is, though, that "designing sexy characters" is about the only thing a large percentage of this medium does.

But this isn't just fanservice pandering. This is the one game where the overt sexualisation makes artistic sense! Why is THIS game getting so muck flack for it, especially when people have been clamouring for 'artistic vision' in games?

It simply boggles my mind that this game gets called sexist and mysoginist for daring to have a unique character design.

 

[7Th]

What's the problem with a creator designing a game specifically to fit his own tastes? Kamitani is the only reason Dragon's Crown even exists which, to begin with, is a niche game that has a very specific target audience. There are much better targets for righteous rage.