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Man charged with murder after tricking girlfriend into taking abortion drug.

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T

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
double post
 
P

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Sanky Panky said:
It's murder.

After the mother has made the conscious decision to carry the baby through the pregnancy, for an outside party to purposefully induce the death of the future child constitues as a heinous crime.

And I'm pro abortions.
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That's great, just don't be upset when that attitude leads to that state being able to label all abortions as murder.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Sanky Panky said:
It's murder.

After the mother has made the conscious decision to carry the baby through the pregnancy, for an outside party to purposefully induce the death of the future child constitues as a heinous crime.

And I'm pro abortions.
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Pro abortions?! Blimey, that's a bit strong!

And how can this be murder? I've got no problem with it being a crime - a hugely punishable crime, in fact - but murder? The reason abortions aren't "murder" is because the embryo is not deemed to be a human. It's why abortions are legal. This legal precedent - that embryos are not humans and therefore killing them is not murder - cannot simply be ignored because the person doing the killing is not the woman within whom the embryo resides.

One cannot be deemed to have murdered something which the law has declared effectively disposable.

"heinous crime" != murder. The fact something's bad does not mean lazily slapping "murder" onto it is valid. It's a dangerous precedent to set, and our legal system should be more nuanced than that.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Hari Seldon said:
True, but if someone cuts your finger off they won't be charged with murder. Murder implies that another human has died. There is attempted murder for trying to murder someone and they live. And this is first degree murder, which is life in prison / death penalty.

There is no consistency here. If the fetus is not a human, then how can one be charged with murder for killing it? If it is just a part of the female body, then the same charges for cutting off a finger should apply (what would that be? attempted murder of the mother?)
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Fair point, and I personally don't like the murder charge myself although I would certainly hope that it be a serious charge short of it.
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
ChainedMaster said:
Do you have a source for this? I'm pretty sure that abortions rights are tied to Roe v. Wade, which based their decision on the 14th Amendment. Because a fetal after viability isn't considered a legal person either.
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Most states do not allow abortions after 24 weeks, and most hospitals won't do it after 20 weeks (for both moral and health reasons).
 
S

Schadenfreude

Member
I thought "abortion is murder" was only a religious argument. Does it not count as murder when a doctor does it? Don't get me wrong, it's a fucked up thing what he did and he should definitely get jail time, but how does this work under the law?
 
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timetokill

Banned
The key question seems to be: Is killing unborn "not yet human" children murder or is it not?

One of the arguments you hear frequently by pro-choice people is that it's not murder to have an abortion because the fetus is not yet a human.

Based on that, this couldn't really be murder either, right?
 
O

Omegasquash

Member
ProfessorLobo said:
That's great, just don't be upset when that attitude leads to that state being able to label all abortions as murder.
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Opens the question up for who gets to make the call, actually. In this case it seems to me that if the mother wanted to keep the child, it's life. If not, then there's a different charge since she was tricked into taking medication.

What it could very well serve to do is serve a pro-choice agenda, since it puts choice in the hands of the parent, not the state. I think.
 
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ultron87

Member
So we should just make a new crime that is "intentionally terminating pregnancy without mother's consent" and give that similar sentencing to murder and we're good.
 
G

GulAtiCa

Member
timetokill said:
The key question seems to be: Is killing unborn "not yet human" children murder or is it not?

One of the arguments you hear frequently by pro-choice people is that it's not murder to have an abortion because the fetus is not yet a human.

Based on that, this couldn't really be murder either, right?
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The problem with that argument, is people who are pro-choice are those that support people wanting to get an abortion.

In this case, the woman did not. She wanted to have the child. And now, thanks this guy, she will never be able to see the child grow up, go to school, get married, and have children of their own. That potential life is now lost.
If it's the woman's choice to have an abortion, is it not the same for the opposite then? For those that want to choose to not have an abortion?

This kinda puts the whole thing in a grey area of if it's a life or not, and if it counts as murder.
 
Meus Renaissance

Meus Renaissance

Member
SlipperySlope said:
So women are allowed to murder their unborn babies, but men aren't?
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It's only a baby if the mother wants the child. If not, its a "collection of blood cells". If the woman didn't want this child and took an abortion, it would have been a "choice". As the father here enforced an abortion on her, its "murder". What distinguishes it often is subjective reasoning, or weeks on a calendar.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
aparisi2274 said:
Did you read the article?? It said that he relabeled the bottle to say "Amoxacilian" and he told her to take that, which is an antibiotic... What was in the bottle was a pill that killed her unborn child, because he did not want to be a father.
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More like did you read his post.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
This is going to provide endless entertainment. If one considers this murder then I don't see why all abortions can't be considered murder. The anti-abortion crowd is licking their lips right now.
 
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hawkshockey11

Banned
I believe the label of "human" should be relative (At least until a determined time in pregnancy) to the woman carrying the child.

If she did not believe the embryo to be a human and chose to have it aborted, it is not murder since it was not considered to be human by the mother.

The opposite is true for someone that does believe the embryo to be human and carries the child to birth.

In this case the woman believed the embryo to be a human and thus the man should be charged with murder.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
ElFly said:
It's her body; if she decides to host a human life inside her or not, it's her decision.
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Sure is. But if the state has decided that this "human life inside her" does not have the right to life - and it has, else she would be tried for murder if she'd chosen to take the pill - then how can anyone else killing it be considered to have committed murder? A horrible act, no doubt, but murder? It cannot be that one person choosing to abort the baby is committing murder whilst another doing the same thing is not. That the former has not right to do so should be subject to a different crime.
 
J

jimi_dini

Member
Ramma2 said:
I don't think the murder 1 charge will stick:

http://articles.dailypress.com/2007-10-17/news/0710170053_1_sentencing-hearing-andrews-cytotec
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A few days later, she discovered the drug purchase when she discovered an e-mailon Riase's computer. Riase later acknowledged what he did in a phone call, and Best reported it to the police.
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I wonder how many times such thing happened without anyone noticing a thing. smh
And it's also pretty fucked up to mention the exact drug he gave her.
 
stufte

stufte

Member
hawkshockey11 said:
I believe the label of "human" should be relative (At least until a determined time in pregnancy) to the woman carrying the child.

If she did not believe the embryo to be a human and chose to have it aborted, it is not murder since it was not considered to be human by the mother.

The opposite is true for someone that does believe the embryo to be human and carries the child to birth.

In this case the woman believed the embryo to be a human and thus the man should be charged with murder.
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That is a really weak argument. Of course it's a human embryo, you can't "believe" it to be anything else. Abortion before a certain amount of time is perfectly legal, no matter what the mother believes is inside her.

What the guy did was wrong, and 100% shitty, but by most legal definitions wasn't murder.
 
S

Sanky Panky

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
Pro abortions?! Blimey, that's a bit strong!

And how can this be murder? I've got no problem with it being a crime - a hugely punishable crime, in fact - but murder? The reason abortions aren't "murder" is because the embryo is not deemed to be a human. It's why abortions are legal. This legal precedent - that embryos are not humans and therefore killing them is not murder - cannot simply be ignored because the person doing the killing is not the woman within whom the embryo resides.

One cannot be deemed to have murdered something which the law has declared effectively disposable.

"heinous crime" != murder. The fact something's bad does not mean lazily slapping "murder" onto it is valid. It's a dangerous precedent to set, and our legal system should be more nuanced than that.
Click to expand...

The minute the mother made the choice that she was going to have the child, barring another cause for a miscarriage, it's only a difference in time for when the father decided the baby was not be born. Would he have decided not to kill the baby after it was born? perhaps.

With that said, he robbed the mother from a son/daughter she had decided to have.
 
S

someday

Banned
stutte said:
So I'm not trying to say one is equal to the other, but:

If a mother gets an abortion without the consent of the father, it's ok. But if the father gets an abortion without the consent of the mother, it's murder?
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To me the problem is that he has to go through the mother's body to cause the abortion. It's not an equal situation and won't be until men are able to carry a fetus to term.

I think a crime was committed but am unsure about the pro-choice aspects of calling it murder. Personally I feel that once the mother decides to carry it, it deserves protection under the law. They've charged people with double murder when killing pregnant women so I guess it's similar.
 
C

cametall

Member
I'm no legal expert (at all) but I think intent might come into play here.

She wanted the baby, he didn't, it's the mother's body (and baby) and her decision (not his). That's probably where it becomes murder.
 
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darkazcura

Member
It's messed up that he did this, and he should be charged with something..not ANYWHERE close to life in prison.

But this thread is bringing up an interesting thought/questions now. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that this is HIS baby too. I don't like the precedent that in the end, the mother seems to have 100% choice in whether the baby is born or not and potentially hit up this guy with child support after he/she is born. If this guy was allowed to sign off on all financial responsibilities towards this child then sure, the mom should be given 100% decision making rights, but this is generally not allowed (?). The father should have a lot more say (obviously equal say wouldn't be possible in this case, but a lot more than 0% say would be nice) in whether an abortion should happen or not because it is also affecting his life. I understand this would be incredibly difficult to govern, but a couple "pro abortion" people in this thread who are okay with a murder charge are kinda scary.

cametall said:
I'm no legal expert (at all) but I think intent might come into play here.

She wanted the baby, he didn't, it's the mother's body (and baby) and her decision (not his). That's probably where it becomes murder.
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It shouldn't be only her decision unless she is willing to drop all possible child support claims before she gives birth. I'm not saying she would go after this guy, but hey, you never know. If he didn't want the baby, he should have a say.

Let me be clear, though. The way he handled it and what he did was WRONG. He should be charged with something. I just don't know what. Poisoning?
 
A

Aristion

Banned
questionmark said:
I am a strong supporter of abortion. But I can get behind this charge. The reason I support abortion is because I don't really give a shit whether a fetus can be considered alive or not, none of that matters (to a certain point obviously), the only thing that matters to me is the womans right to choose whether or not to carry the baby to term. The woman in this case was cruelly robbed of that choice in this case. Disgusting act, which needs to be punished severely. The exact charge brought against him is not really important to me personally, just as long as it is strict.
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The fuck is this shit? You don't care? You fucking kidding me?
 
E

ElectricBlanketFire

Member
darkazcura said:
It's messed up that he did this, and he should be charged with something..not ANYWHERE close to life in prison.

But this thread is bringing up an interesting thought/questions now. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that this is HIS baby too.
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Wow. I'm pro-choice and this is boldly stupid.

Guy should get any and all punishment coming to him.
 
S

someday

Banned
darkazcura said:
It's messed up that he did this, and he should be charged with something..not ANYWHERE close to life in prison.

But this thread is bringing up an interesting thought/questions now. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that this is HIS baby too. I don't like the precedent that in the end, the mother seems to have 100% choice in whether the baby is born or not, and then get hit up this guy with child support after he/she is born. The father should have a lot more say (obviously equal say wouldn't be possible in this case, but a lot more than 0% say would be nice) in whether an abortion should happen or not because it is also affecting his life. I understand this would be incredibly difficult to govern, but a couple "pro abortion" people in this thread who are okay with a murder charge are kinda scary.



It shouldn't be only her decision unless she is willing to drop all possible child support claims before she gives birth. I'm not saying she would go after this guy, but hey, you never know. If he didn't want the baby, he should have a say.

Let me be clear, though. The way he handled it and what he did was WRONG. He should be charged with something. I just don't know what. Poisoning?
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I don't think anyone is forgetting this. The point is he isn't the one carrying the baby/fetus.
 
S

Sanky Panky

Banned
darkazcura said:
It shouldn't be only her decision unless she is willing to drop all possible child support claims before she gives birth. I'm not saying she would go after this guy, but hey, you never know. If he didn't want the baby, he should have a say.

Let me be clear, though. The way he handled it and what he did was WRONG. He should be charged with something. I just don't know what. Poisoning?
Click to expand...

I think the father's decision ends at "condom vs no condom" and "pull out vs deposit my seeds inside a vagina". Whatever happens to the other human being he is potentially impregnating is his responsibility, and her choice.

I am aware that a condom may not work, or the woman can lie and say she was on the pill. Not for the condom, but if the woman lied, I agree that there should be some legal protection against claims of child support.
 
M

MrDenny

Member
I don't understand what his line of thinking was.
After the abortion happened, did he actually think he could get away with it?
 
D

darkazcura

Member
Sanky Panky said:
I think the father's decision ends at "condom vs no condom" and "pull out vs deposit my seeds inside a vagina". Whatever happens to the other human being he is potentially impregnating is his responsibility, and her choice.

I am aware that a condom may not work, or the woman can lie and say she was on the pill. Not for the condom, but if the woman lied, I agree that there should be some legal protection against claims of child support.
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In the end, that's all I'm really saying. I never said what he did was right. I only said this brings up an interesting discussion in my mind about how much say a potential father has in an abortion.
 
D

darkazcura

Member
ElectricBlanketFire said:
Think about the fact you edited your post after I already posted.
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I didn't change anything I said. I only added and changed some grammar. what the hell?


Omegasquash said:
Some people don't. Different opinions on the matter make the world go round.



Um.
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Are you denying it's his baby? And I think I'm going to make this clear in every post I make just in case this bites me in the ass for people who don't read my original post. I clearly said what he did was WRONG. I'm just wondering why a guy has no say at all and then can get hit with potential financial burdens when he knew he couldn't handle something like that before the birth of the child. I would make a thread about this, but I'm still a Junior. I'm not justifying what this guy did. This story and the reactions to it just brought up a question/thought in my head.
 
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