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Could MS slowly bring back their DRM features over time?

Do you believe that Microsoft will slowly reintroduce the Xbox One DRM over time?


Results are only viewable after voting.

Finalizer

Member
There is seriously nothing anyone could do to prevent a digital platform from happening.

The entire DRM reversal on the Xbox One says otherwise. There is clearly resistance to adoption of a digital future if it isn't on the consumer's terms.

The idea that you are shipping a 2 cent piece of plastic half way around the world, so you can walk to your TV and put it in a tray is absurd. Games are the last place this transition is happening and it's long overdue. I think when you see the instantaneous nature of PS4 and Xbone it will be incredibly jarring to walk to your television to put a disk in the console.

You can pass it off as trivial, but it's absolutely not. For many people it's been years since they have touched physical media. Between smartphone app stores, Roku streamers, smart TVs, iTunes, Pandora... Disks are dead. I can't tell you when the last time I've seen physical media in someones possession and data will back this up.

You're getting too caught up in your own personal experience to see the bigger picture. You think physical media is already dead. That a number of outlets for all sorts of physical media still exist, not just games mind you, says otherwise for the public at large.

Again, not saying that a largely digital future for games isn't coming, but to say it's inevitable, and that we'll accept whatever is thrown at us is naive. We already have precedent that says otherwise.

EDIT: More food for thought: If the Steam of today was exactly like it was when it was introduced, PC gamers would not have adopted it as the default platform for PC gaming. Valve worked on improving the platform in order to make it more appealing to consumers, then they came to accept the transition to it. Neither MS nor any other console manufacturer will get away with slapping DRM all over their system and enforcing a digital ecosystem without providing consumer-friendly benefits in the process.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
You can pass it off as trivial, but it's absolutely not. For many people it's been years since they have touched physical media. Between smartphone app stores, Roku streamers, smart TVs, iTunes, Pandora... Disks are dead. I can't tell you when the last time I've seen physical media in someones possession and data will back this up.

This is some grade-A anecdotal evidence right here. Wow.
 

ypo

Member
Microsoft is one of the most untrustworthy and anti-consumer companies out there so the chance is high.
 

border

Member
I read the topic header and thought, "Of course they won't bring the DRM back -- obviously not, that's a stupid idea, it'll never happen!"

Then I was pretty aghast to see nearly 80% of people here think it's at least a possibility. That's ridiculous.

Ignore how much you distrust Microsoft. Ignore how much you dislike Microsoft. From a purely logistical standpoint, how in God's name are they going to re-introduce mandatory DRM? What happens to the millions of used games that would be sitting on retailers' shelves and in eBay/Amazon sales? What happens when they essentially brick/break the console for everyone that doesn't have a reliable internet connection? What happens when overseas soldiers and service men can no longer play the game system they purchased?

If they could not withstand the terrible PR they got from E3 2013, how in God's name could they withstand the PR fallout that happens when suddenly a large segment of their customers cannot even play the system?

They're done, the policies are set in stone for the rest of the generation. There's really no plausible way they could suddenly decide to switch things up.
 
...and I'm sure you swore up and down that you would absolutely never in a million years use that piece of shit DRM, corporate, etc, etc, etc.

Please go back, read his post again, and reply to what he was actually talking about, instead of inventing things that you're "sure" he did in the past.

Again, the key distinction here is the open vs. closed platform issue. Every publisher has the ability to sell the same, binary-compatible games on multiple storefronts on the PC, and the majority take advantage of it. That ability will never exist on consoles, and most of the benefits people see in storefronts like Steam and GOG emanate directly from it.

Let me see if i understand this. Are you saying on the PC if i buy a DRM free game i can sell that file to a friend and he can play it, no strings attached? So the only thing keeping me from distributing that file and both of us playing it is my own honesty?

Err... that's also the only thing keeping you from doing that with a DRM-free game that you don't resell to someone else. :p

Games are the last place this transition is happening and it's long overdue.

Well, for one, you're quite a bit ahead of yourself on this: video revenue is still primarily driven by discs, and total disc sales aren't shrinking quite yet.

But secondly, games are so far behind precisely because of accessibility, pricing, and convenience issues in their business models -- i.e. exactly the stuff that's wrong with the Xbox One approach. The success of digital distribution in every medium was tied to the arrival of specific platforms that a) competed in an open marketplace and b) provided a concrete, easily understandable sales proposition that was equivalently or more desirable to the physical one.

In music, people got a taste for digital music via Napster, then iTMS drove paid adoption by providing a convenient (and eventually, DRM-free) way to easily download music and then play it anywhere. Now the innovation is in streaming services like Spotify that represent a convenient bargain for heavy-volume users.

In video, the only places that have taken off all offer similar value propositions: iTunes again (and to a lesser degree, Amazon) for permanent sales, and Netflix for a low-price and convenient streaming option.

In books, basically nobody took ebooks seriously until Amazon provided both the physical means to read them and a convenient storefront, while still allowing you to load books from elsewhere onto your Kindle.

On smartphones, apps took off because of their extremely low price, the convenient usage restrictions (any number of devices simultaneously), and the near-guaranteed cross-compatibility that allowed a single purchase to span multiple generations of phones and tablets.

Digital enthusiast games aren't on the level of acceptance that any of these other media have, but the closest they've gotten is via Steam and other PC storefronts, and the reason why is exactly the same as these other platforms: the right combination of openness, convenience, reliability, and price to make digital competitive with physical. To do that effectively for all content, the console manufacturers would have to make some pretty significant changes to their business models, and I don't think either of them is ready to do that seriously yet.
 

Maximus.

Member
I am positive Microsoft will eventually reintroduce many aspects they shared when they introduced the system. Right now its market share, once they secure that they can do whatever they want.
 

Gowans

Member
I don't think it's black and white.

I think they will but as an option. No way would they make it necessary after the feedback.
 

CTLance

Member
The question in the poll is poorly worded in that the timeframe and scope is missing. I voted yes because I believe that the DRM features will remain an important goal for MS even outside XBox One. Not singling MS out in any way, many big players in the software/"content" business have been and will continue to try to get themselves a big helping of consumer rights, but this is an MS topic so MS is the focus. Getting paid for doing nothing is just too tempting.

They've already gotten people used to paying monthly fees for their Office suite, the OS login can be tied to their online framework - the DRM larvae are everywhere, happily squirming around, waiting to hatch.
The entire company is marching lockstep in the same direction, and that stuff will creep into every product they release. Will it happen with the One? Not sure, they got spanked hard and may not be able to openly move about, but they will probably be laying the groundwork at the very least, of that I am convinced.

Their only error was that they wanted to do too much DRM at once. That never goes over well. You have to use some lube and slowly chip away at the status quo, with minute changes that by themselves do not alarm the cattle customers. Stuff that is only slightly inconvenient at time of introduction. Stuff that can be easily explained away, or that applies to such a small subdivision of your user base that the cries get drowned out. By the time the lumbering beasts notice they're trapped it's already too late.

If you need me, I'll be back in the basement.
It needs another layer of shielding, and I just got more aluminium foil in the mail.
 

Finalizer

Member
They could make an arrangement on indies where you could buy a game on the eshop and possibly purchase a steam key for an extra $1 or two.

That's more of a cross-buy thing, which I'd never expect to happen out of principle. (e.g. you don't see PS360 games with the same game compatible for two systems on one disc... inb4 someone proves me wrong on this though, lol) I was more referring to something like, Sony allows Valve, GMG, etc. to make PS4 apps and personally distribute digital versions of PS4 games through their own storefronts. So in addition to Sony's own storefront, you could buy digital PS4 games through Steam and other services.

Would be extremely cool, but I can't see any console manufacturer giving up the kind of control they have over their own ecosystems for it.
 

Sendou

Member
I voted NO but thinking about it it isn't necessarily all that far fetched. Not Microsoft only but Sony too if it benefits them. More so with Sony if they'll be able to secure the market to a significant point.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
What prevents games being as cheap on 360/PS3 as they are on Steam, is it publishers?

I feel like there might be a case to make that console gamers may be subsiding PC gamers Steam sales if that's the case.

A fairer model would be

Game + Steam cut = Steam Price
Game + MS cut = XB1 Price
Game + Sony cut = PS4 Price
 

Ding-Ding

Member
They have been pretty clear that its going to come back. Only question is, will it be an update for the Xbox One or be held off for the generation after.

I expect them to do this in an update as it would make more sense. Serve the shit sandwich when everyone is already at the table eating lunch. Then hope that everyone has their mouths full to not be able to mutter a word in protest.

Just like elections, its easier to ammend a policy mid term, than it is to announce a policy before an election so you can be judged on it from the start.

Its mainly because of this, i've accepted that the Xbox One will not be making an appearance in my living room next gen. The damage has been done and MS will have to prove themselves if they want to regain me as a customer for the generation after.
 
Discs unlocking digital licenses was what really required the 24 hr check in, I don't see that returning.
Those that want digital licenses will just have to download from XBL servers.
I can see features like family sharing plan coming back though.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
They have been pretty clear that its going to come back. Only question is, will it be an update for the Xbox One or be held off for the generation after.

I expect them to do this in an update as it would make more sense. Serve the shit sandwich when everyone is already at the table eating lunch. Then hope that everyone has their mouths full to not be able to mutter a word in protest.

Just like elections, its easier to ammend a policy mid term, than it is to announce a policy before an election so you can be judged on it from the start.

Its mainly because of this, i've accepted that the Xbox One will not be making an appearance in my living room next gen. The damage has been done and MS will have to prove themselves if they want to regain me as a customer for the generation after.

I just don't understand this, are people actually saying they will update the XB1 to make it checkin online every 24 hours? There is no chance of this happening. They might sell one without a disc drive or something in a few years but if you buy an XB1 that doesn't require an online checkin, it will never require one.
 

Ding-Ding

Member
Discs unlocking digital licenses was what really required the 24 hr check in, I don't see that returning.
Those that want digital licenses will just have to download from XBL servers.
I can see features like family sharing plan coming back though.

But the family sharing was tied into the online DRM 24 hr check in. Cant see one returning without the other

I just don't understand this, are people actually saying they will update the XB1 to make it checkin online every 24 hours? There is no chance of this happening. They might sell one without a disc drive or something in a few years but if you buy an XB1 that doesn't require an online checkin, it will never require one.

Are you saying that you have never received a console update without a change of terms & conditions?.

Its simply, dont accept the terms, say goodbye to online functions till you do.
 
They wont bring back always online. However I am expecting their 1st party games to eventually be damn near unplayable without an internet connection.


I also expect big publishers to be on the bandwagon. Basically, the only new games you can unrestricted online in 5 years time will be indies. I think they will try the same on PS4, but I dont see Sony doing it with their first party titles and there should be quite a few mid-tier/kickstarted games that dont either.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
But the family sharing was tied into the online DRM 24 hr check in. Cant see one returning without the other



Are you saying that you have never received a console update without a change of terms & conditions?.

Its simply, dont accept the terms, say goodbye to online functions till you do.

No I haven't no, not to my knowledge. Nothing that majorly changed the way the console worked such as this. It will not happen.
 
I guess the pre-order fiasco wasn't enough for MS, comforts me in my decision to punish MS by not buying their console for the first 1 or 2 years. If they try to sneak their shit in sometimes down the way, I'll go back to my "never going to buy stance" pre 180.
 

Syntax

Member
I just don't understand this, are people actually saying they will update the XB1 to make it checkin online every 24 hours? There is no chance of this happening. They might sell one without a disc drive or something in a few years but if you buy an XB1 that doesn't require an online checkin, it will never require one.

Considering that some games themselves are going to be online only or lean heavily on online aspects (such as multiplayer), isn't it going to be required that you connect and therefore update your console to continue playing those games? Especially if a game's multiplayer or otherwise online aspects get patched to incorporate the original scheme of things if/when they're brought back?
 

Walshicus

Member
I voted no because I'm sure the intention of the thread is to ask whether you'll have no choice in a few years but to buy digital copies of games, not whether the old system of rights management will return. Because the old system of rights management hasn't really disappeared given that digital copies will co-exist with retail copies of games.

I think it's very likely that both will continue to exist and that's the best approach to take. Customers will be given incentives to switch to buying digital copies of games, but I'm doubtful we'll see a major "AAA" title given a digital-only release. And if Battlefield 5 is digital only, it'll be that way across all consoles.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
Considering that some games themselves are going to be online only or lean heavily on online aspects (such as multiplayer), isn't it going to be required that you connect and therefore update your console to continue playing those games? Especially if a game's multiplayer or otherwise online aspects get patched to incorporate the original scheme of things if/when they're brought back?

Near enough every game is going to be online on both consoles going forward but that is not the same as introducing an 24 hour online check. They can't change this not they are locked in for the generation.
 

border

Member
Are you saying that you have never received a console update without a change of terms & conditions?.

Its simply, dont accept the terms, say goodbye to online functions till you do.

This is true, but there's no way in hell they would ever want to deal with the PR disaster of switching things up, and making the console unplayable for people without a regular internet connection.
 

Ding-Ding

Member
No I haven't no, not to my knowledge. Nothing that majorly changed the way the console worked such as this. It will not happen.

Both the 360 & PS3 has had changes to their T&C's during this gen. Also, PS3 & linux was a major change in how the console worked for those that used it.

You say it wont happen, even though MS have stated a couple of times that they believe in their original policies and regard them as their future. Sooner or later that future will hit.

After the shitstorm that surrounded 'One's' launch, its seems more likely they will implement the changes when consoles are sitting in peoples homes, rather than risk another console launch backlash
 

Syntax

Member
Near enough every game is going to be online on both consoles going forward but that is not the same as introducing an 24 hour online check. They can't change this now that they are locked in for the generation.

I don't want to be pedantic, but they can change it. It's something they could do. Just like you can run up and down the street naked or lick your car clean. It's something that can be done.

So that's not really up for debate, I think. Will they or wont they is the question. I believe they most certainly will try at some point.

"Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon™..."
 
People have been fooled on both PS4 and Xbox One. At least DRM are still here.

Tell me if I'm wrong but it seems that games' installs are mandatory and EA already said that all their upcoming games will require online.

The only things that really changed is the policy around used games.

Actually I'm just thinking that even will al the fuzz and the different precisions Microsoft or Sony gave regarding DRM, always online and all this I'm just lost and I don't really know what will be or not be possible with their systems and the games that are coming.

So one more reason for me to wait.
 
Should be an interesting gen. And I say this as someone who wasn't all that opposed to the DRM stuff.

Read the terms very carefully when you get your XBone folks because you're probably putting yourself over the barrel right there.
 

TechnicPuppet

Nothing! I said nothing!
I don't want to be pedantic, but they can change it. It's something they could do. Just like you can run up and down the street naked or lick your car clean. It's something that can be done.

So that's not really up for debate, I think. Will they or wont they is the question. I believe they most certainly will try at some point.

I take the point, it's technically possible.
 

Ushae

Banned
As long as the features remain for digital customers, there should never be an issue with this. Hoepfully MS have learnt their lesson that physical customers are just as valuable as digital.

Going digital has many benefits, I hope you all can see that.

- Digital renting
- Digital sharing
- No need to swap discs
- No fear of losing the disc
- Good chance for the value fo the games to go down

Just a few off the top of my head. It's the execution that matters. But physical discs need to stay, with an option to bind the game to our account if want.
 

Ding-Ding

Member
This is true, but there's no way in hell they would ever want to deal with the PR disaster of switching things up, and making the console unplayable for people without a regular internet connection.

But they wont make it unplayable, it just wont be playable online (regardles of being a gold member).

Will it cause a shitstorm, yes. However, the vast majority of existing 'One' owners will just grumble but still hit the "Yes I accept the terms" as they are already financially tied into its ecosystem.

Only those with high principles and deep pockets would be likely to dump the console. If MS do this change, they will do it when they have a large userbase. The only way I see these policies being completely dead & buried is if the console tanks.
 

Omikaru

Member
I don't trust Microsoft to not try this again. I thought that they'd at least wait until the Xbox One's successor to do so, but the kind of language they've been using around the issue tells me they might try it with an established install base.

Quite frankly, I don't want to go to the trouble of selling a console since it is heavy, expensive to ship and a huge bother to me, and GAME's trade-in prices are dreadful. So yeah, I'm taking a wait and see approach here. No Xbox One until the end of the gen, if at all.

But recently my gut is telling me they'll try and pull a fast one on their customers in this gen, so I voted yes.
 

Ding-Ding

Member
Going digital has many benefits, I hope you all can see that.

- Digital renting
- Digital sharing
- No need to swap discs
- No fear of losing the disc
- Good chance for the value fo the games to go down

That would be the case if we are talking about an open platform like the PC, as you have multiple choices as to who is the provider. On closed platforms, there will only be one choice.

We have heard the whole digital will be cheaper than retail before. However, it always sticks to RRP on release. At the same time, retail chains sometimes go lower as they have competition.

Hell, in some cases (Hi EA) digital has been hideous. I have seen 55 quid online compared to 38 quid in shops. Also, discounts on older games seem to take longer to hit digital copies on consoles, where retail just wants to clear stock
 

Walshicus

Member
Yes, once Xb1 has a big enough installbase I expect them to introduce drm features slowly, one at a time.

How do you introduce the system they had piece by piece? It doesn't work like that.

It's already in place for digital purchases. What Microsoft *wanted* this generation was to not have retail disc based games. The disc under the original model was just a delivery method for the digital copy of the game. I don't see how you can have the two in parallel without also having dual retail releases, which would be pointless.

No, they'll heavily push digital marketplace content with cheaper prices and extra content (e.g. free DLC), but I think it's incredibly unlikely they'll make any changes to the retail model now.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Yes but with exceptions.

I doubt they will make any changes to physical games. They will remain the same as they are now.

Digital media might get the DRM back but it will allow family sharing, game trading and selling of digital content.

Basically, the best of both worlds.
 

dejay

Banned
I voted no, but I should have voted yes. Kinda. I'm not sure it will be the same types or in the same manner, but both Sony and MS are moving in that direction. Sony is mastering the bait and switch, MS failed at the heavy hand and is switching to bait and switch, although their bait is still heavy handed still heavy handed.
 

Sakujou

Banned
If ms does this so will sony.

Its mind boggling how a lot of sonyfans think that sony wont do such bad things.
A lot of bad things happened from sony:
-psn hack
-ps2 emulatin got cut down
-with every revision the ps3 got uglier and less sturdier

Sony changed their game policy to charge for online gaming and no one cares. But back then, everyone hated ms for charging for something like this.

Ms plays a vital role in the videogameindustry but unfortunately no one cares about them. Especially in germany you can see how nearsighted people are sometimes knowing facts sometimes just pure hate for the other side :http://rhyuji.consolewars.de/post/152408/xbox_one_oder_playstation_4_schnell_gefragt_auf_der_gamescom_xd

O this page you can see on the yt clips posted, how many peeps are for ps4 and how many will buy the xbone... So sad.
 
They pretty much said themselves that the DRM features would be back eventually... They just "believe" the consumer is not ready for them yet.

In other words, they are selling you a product they didn't want to make in hopes of slowly turning it back into what it was supposed to be in the first place.
 
This makes me really curious to see if someone will do a video where they buy the Xbox One at launch and keep it offline for a whole day, just to see what would happen. Could you imagine if it turned out that the original 24 hour check-in software was still present and denied you the option to play your games? Or what if it outright just blocked you from using the console if you don't download the patch? The backlash would be insane.
 
One of the few clear things about MS' Xbox One announcement is that their "vision" was one of having software licenses tied to accounts, hardware that was locked with scanning peripherals and online DRM and reduced user rights of ownership.

One of the other things MS has stated rather clearly was that they remain committed to their original vision. Why wouldn't they? It favours them immensely.

With the 360 they took away most user's ability to use any sort of online functionality that didn't involve waving your credit card at one point. With the Xbox One they showed that they wanted to limit even more what the user was capable of doing with his software and how they could use it.

I have to be honest with you guys, Microsoft's vision of the future is immensely scary for consumers. It may be inevitable that we all go digital at some point but if that is the case I'll prefer to go digital with a company that respects my rights better as a consumer instead of one that wants to take those rights away under some sort of guise.
 
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