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[Verendus]

Never mind. Waste of time.

 

[Ty4on]

Your line of thought is what got Nintendo into the mess they're in. It's not possible to serve both the hardcore audience and the casual audience from day one without sacrificing something. And the hardcore audience is certainly more important than the casual one at the beginning. It's like you're learning nothing from the Wii U when one of their exact aims was to try just that. Good luck with these hopes because it will never happen. No games company is stupid enough to try what you're suggesting. Well Nintendo was, and we're seeing how that's turning out for them. Both Sony and Microsoft keep both audiences in mind, but are also smart enough to know when to prioritise.

Exactly. A device that focuses on everyone usually ends up not focusing on anything.

"Innovation" and "creativity" and "gameplay" have long been the flawed catchcry defense of underpowered hardware. Hardware power does not force developer homogeneity. Hardware power does not stifle "creativity." Hardware power does not, in itself, drive up development costs.

"Innovation" is not a synonym for changing control inputs.

Such a simple point I'm amazed I don't see it more often. The most powerful platform there is also gets the most creative and lowest budget games.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeah, I feel like most people who throw around the term innovation have literally zero idea what it means. Being innovative means doing something new and different. It has nothing to do with how good that new or different thing is. I can make something that's really creative and ambitious, but ultimately shit. Very few games are really all that innovative anyways. What matters far more than innovation is execution. How well does it do what it's trying to do, not is it doing something that's never been done before. Galaxy wasn't all that innovative. The only remotely innovative thing Galaxy did was the gravity stuff, which didn't matter much half the time, and sometimes just made the game more disorienting. What made Galaxy great was never the gravity gimmick, it was the amazing level design. Whether you like it or not, 3D Worlds inclusion of a fun multiplayer experience in a 3d platformer is more innovative than anything Galaxy did because it has never really been done in a 3d platformer and is a far bigger and more pervasive feature. Whether you use it or not has nothing to do with whether it's innovative. Neither does whether it's actually good. What people seem to talk about is some sort of illusory "wow" factor that has literally nothing to do with innovation and more to do with spectacle. But a wow factor will never make a game great, because it'll always wear off once tech is furthered or once people get used to it. The real classics, including Mario 64, hold up despite their age because the execution is amazing. Nobody who'd never played it before is going to marvel at it the way people did when it first came out because bigger, shinier things have come along that they'll gravitate to instead. People are going to enjoy it because it's designed well and fun

 

[Tookay]

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.

You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.

You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.

One of my favorites from almost every Zelda thread. "*group X* says to do thing A, *group Y* says to do thing B, lol Zelda fans/Zelda cycle amirite guyz"

 

[Luckydude23]

So can they go back to creating an ACTUAL 2D Mario game, with NEW worlds, NEW enemies, and NEW power ups, instead of half assing it like they do with the recent 2d Mario games?

I like Galaxy, 64, and Sunshine just as much anyone else, but come on now.

 

[Agent Unknown]

Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.

You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.

Yes, because it should be readily apparent to anyone that "Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF" is clearly a very non-specific term meant to represent a wide swath of all disappointed Nintendo fans on the forum and wasn't directed at a very select, (hopefully) small group of people who are going over board to slam a game's merits based on disappointing sales and was in no way intended to be hyperbolic in any fashion.

 

[Freezie KO]

Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.

You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.

Agreed. We see a lot of gross simplification and posts that outright tell other posters' what their arguments are.

 

[Kimosabae]

I nominate this for best post that will not see responses because it's easier to let it get buried than argue against it. Not that I've never done that but it'd take one hell of an inspired argument to dispute this.

To be fair, it's an unquantifiable, presumptive premise (the assumption that people's inability to evaluate newer Mario games fairly lies in some subconscious association to excitement and novelty that was seeded in childhood by older games); but it's one that I tend to agree with, because I personally identify with it. I simply grew out of it.

My theory is that this won't be nearly as much of a problem 5-10 years from now, with newer generations. There's simply less kids growing up today in an environment where Nintendo is one of the most relevant, de facto, childhood-magic-makers in town, than there were in the late 80's and 90's.

 

[Midou]

SM3DW is exactly what I wanted from a new mario, I am glad they stepped away from NSMB, sales problems aside, I respect them greatly for SM3DW and ALBW. I got a PS4 but still find my Wii U purchase more than justified between WW and SM3DW.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I think this is actually pretty decent considering the lower installed base for the WiiU when compared to the others.

Also, isn't Christmas 'shopping' celebrated in Japan, not in a religious sense but more as an event.

Maybe there are people waiting for that to get 3d world.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

So can they go back to creating an ACTUAL 2D Mario game, with NEW worlds, NEW enemies, and NEW power ups, instead of half assing it like they do with the recent 2d Mario games?

I like Galaxy, 64, and Sunshine just as much anyone else, but come on now.

Super Mario Bros. 4 is coming.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Obligatory

 

[hongcha]

Also, isn't Christmas 'shopping' celebrated in Japan, not in a religious sense but more as an event.

In Japan, New Years is a much bigger deal in regard to gifts.

 

[Kimosabae]

Why is "Pricedrop" crossed off in that GIF?

 

[Sergiepoo]

Such a simple point I'm amazed I don't see it more often. The most powerful platform there is also gets the most creative and lowest budget games.

I assume you mean the PC? The PC market works because it has healthy digital distribution platform and doesn't have nearly the same expectations placed on it that new consoles do. Ironically, it's one platform where both audiences can both co-exist without any discrimination. By making it very clear from the start what benefits powerful hardware can convey, there isn't the same graphics arms-race among publishers to find the next big thing in that area. It occurs, but it's not nearly as all-consuming as it is on consoles.

@Verendus: I hope you're bowing out not because you feel there's no hope for constructive conversation. My only problem is that too many hardcore gamers on this board take the position that benefits only them the most and exclude ideas that don't fit into the hardcore agenda. My only hope is that people acknowledge that there is another side, even if they disagree with it. Strong opinion that exist counter to your own should inspire debate, not kill it.

 

[elrechazado]

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"

Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."

*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"

*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"

*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*

"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."

*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"

*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*

*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"

Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.

Gaf is not a single collective

 

[reelbigtink]

SM3DW is exactly what I wanted from a new mario, I am glad they stepped away from NSMB, sales problems aside, I respect them greatly for SM3DW and ALBW. I got a PS4 but still find my Wii U purchase more than justified between WW and SM3DW.

I'm in the same boat. It makes me genuinely sad to see people being so negative about the whole thing.

 

[Tookay]

Yes, because it should be readily apparent to anyone that "Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF" is clearly a very non-specific term meant to represent a wide swath of all disappointed Nintendo fans on the forum and wasn't directed at a very select, (hopefully) small group of people who are going over board to slam a game's merits based on disappointing sales and was in no way intended to be hyperbolic in any fashion.

I don't care how much you tried to narrow it down. The sample size was both under-inclusive and over-inclusive. And just plain wrong about some people's motivation.

I know it's easy to knock others down if you strawman them, but the truth is that they aren't as contradictory or plain absurd as you construct them to be.

 

[stryke]

I'm in the same boat. It makes me genuinely sad to see people being so negative about the whole thing.

Then maybe you should stay away from sales threads if you can't handle the realities of how the console and its games are performing.

 

[Sponge]

Can't say I'm very surprised. The Wii U needs more than a Mario game to help it at this point.

 

[Bizazedo]

Eh, honestly I think one of the base problems of the Wii U is simple competition and word of mouth in an era of increased speed of communication. We're in an era where the Wii U can demonstrably be shown to be basically equivalent to a 360 / PS3 by smart individuals who rip the damn things open....or at the least make cogent arguments to make it seem that way. Throw in a couple of multiplats that confirm it (or make it look worse) and that news spreads. People who don't understand the why's or how parrot the information, even if it doesn't matter. Very quickly the Wii U is "underpowered". A cut., but not fatal.

Then you throw in the pricepoint versus its peers. It's not favorable and meshes with the power argument very poorly. Another cut.

The looming arrival of the PS4 and XB1 cast a big shadow. The thought of "Man, the PS3 was $599, how much are these going to cost? Maybe I don't want to splurge yet...?" The underlying thought process that the new machines would probably be better than the 360 and PS3, machines the Wii U is roughly equivalent to? Another cut.

Announcements arrive, specs are discussed, and the original batch of people like myself who grew up with Nintendo go "Wow, these look good." The hardcore Nintendo fans among us still get the Wii U. They love the games and life is good. Those of us who remember Mario fondly smile, but we also currently have grown up and grown to love Dark Souls and Battlefield and COD and Uncharted and The Last of Us.....and sacrifice the few games for the many.

It's not that we don't want Mario or Mario Kart or Smash or Zelda. We do. There's a lot of other games we want, to, though, and the online world that is the Internet makes the comparisons easy. It doesn't even have to be a correct comparison some of the times, the speed at which things moves just let certain comparisons dominate. Then it becomes a personal decision for many with money being an important factor. More for less. Cut cut cut....

Finally, the Wii U was more expensive than the original Wii, scaring away the initial glut of casuals that made the Wii successful. Combine that with Wii Fit and Wii Sports are no longer new. The fad had dissipated or could be replicated on other systems (Kinect 1 did sell like gangbusters....a missed point by many). Combine that with perceived equivalency of the system with the Kinect 1 and 360 combo? Another cut.

Those of us with children find reasons to justify it. I could get my son or daughter Mario, or I could get them Lego (insert name here) and Knack and get myself (insert game here)? I think I'll serve us both!

The ridiculously plentiful ads and trailers make it easy to justify. Hell, my 360 has the Gametrailers app that I can just watch and get these ideas from! Our parents always purchased for just us, not us AND themselves. Zee final cut.

Death by a thousand cuts.

It's not Mario that's the problem. It's the overall ecosystem and competition for the Wii U.

 

[reelbigtink]

Then maybe you should stay away from sales threads if you can't handle the realities of how the console and its games are performing.

I can handle it just fine. But quality and popularity are often at odds with one another. It sucks to see a good thing brushed aside for whatever reason.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Ambition isn't important in itself; ambition is striving to do something. It is only the end result we feel. What they are ambitious towards? Making a good game. Some degree of ambition is required to achieve good results, but only measuring the ambition (however this is even possible, or accurate based on the little you may know about game development) is placing the cart before the horse. You've become so nostalgic to earlier sensations of novelty that it has blinded you to the initial appeal of videogames. Not the newness they are wrapped in, but the fun derived from complex interactivity and feedback.

Even so, the whole idea that Mario is a consistent "game-changer" is a myth to begin with. It is clearly untrue from SMB1 to (actual) SMB2 to SMB3 to SMBW, none of these are giant leaps. SM64, of course, is. That's a jump you only make once though. Moreover, it is not like SM64 invented 3D gaming, it merely made a fine selection of 3D mechanics. It made the best of new fertile ground. From there on you get nothing even nearly comparable to being one of the first successful 3D games. Galaxy? There is nothing particularly special going on with Galaxy, nothing that makes it "game-changer" (especially the meaningful changing of other games and which are made). It has a gravity-themed mechanic (although sometimes it is little more than a visual effect, i.e. a "gimmick") that may or may not contribute to fun in a 3D platformer, but not much else.

Perhaps the failure here is that you've turned some of the previous Mario games into something "sacred" because you hold newness as something sacred; a feat of magic... a "game-changer". You care too much about "change" and not enough about "game". You want Miyamoto to be a goddamn wizard so that you can be a pre-teen again. This is your way with dealing with the natural process of us becoming desensitized to stimuli. Its the dumber, shallow way out; the only way that can provide instant gratification if you've been around the block. This rage against Mario has nothing to do with 2D or 3D platforming mechanics; it hardly has to do with any genre (as even genres eventually "grow old" and require an appreciation for depth and fine design to remain interesting if one cannot find something "new" from it). The jump to 3D has happened, and can only happen, once. You want to overcome decreasing returns, so much so that you overrated what "magic" was being done with Galaxy. To accept that there is no "magic", that "newness" isn't very important in itself, would kill a large part of the appeal of videogames for you. It would take away what you've been using them as vehicles for.

Don't know why I'm bothering though. Fallacy stacked upon fallacy would be the best way to define your style of argument. I think I saw you mention metacritic scores lol

EDIT: After looking at a quote, I see that I didn't write this very well. Too late to proofread this now, but w/e.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to be a pre-teen and more about Nintendo making a Mario game that actually is appealing enough to sell systems which 3D World never was. Your an eloquent writer but your points are baloney.

 

[Chindogg]

I don't care how much you tried to narrow it down. The sample size was both under-inclusive and over-inclusive. And just plain wrong about some people's motivation.

I know it's easy to knock others down if you strawman them, but the truth is that they aren't as contradictory or plain absurd as you construct them to be.

When you have people actively rooting for a game to fail regardless of quality, despite the caricature it's still based in some kind of truth.

There is no strawman here, there is a swath of GAF that'll literally come into every single Wii U thread and shit it up because they don't like the fact that Nintendo didn't make a PS4/isn't going 3rd party/whatever.

If you feel that you're part of the caricature he's describing then perhaps its not his assessment that's the issue. Since you're not a usual suspect I see in every thread I can't judge your demeanor but the post he made is pretty accurate for quite a few people. Would you prefer he just listed names off instead?

This has nothing to do with me wanting to be a pre-teen and more about Nintendo making a Mario game that actually is appealing enough to sell systems which 3D World never was. Your an eloquent writer but your points are baloney.

Case in point.

"YOU MAKE A GREAT POST BUT YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT"

 

[UNCMark]

Why is "Pricedrop" crossed off in that GIF?

Because it had no significant effect on the Wii U's sales?

 

[lifeexpectancy]

Are people surprised by this? Of course it's going to be the lowest debut, it has the lowest install base and if it's going to shift systems it'll do it over time not in one big go.

This. You can't move tons of copies of a game if you haven't moved a large enough number of systems. Sill, I was kinda expecting the attach rate to be better.

 

[Anticitizen One]

This. You can't move tons of copies of a game if you haven't moved a large enough number of systems. Sill, I was kinda expecting the attach rate to be better.

This argument makes no sense when the numbers of n64s sold when Super Mario 64 came out was 0 and Nintendo had brutal competition back then yet SM64 easily outsold 3D world.

 

[Ricerocket]

Why is "Pricedrop" crossed off in that GIF?

It did nothing.

 

[Kimosabae]

Because it had no significant effect on the Wii U's sales?

This thing had a price drop? How much was it initially?? I thought it was always 299.00 USD??

 

[SlowRevolution]

Disappointing but not that surprising. 3D World looks incredible but I'm not paying $300 for a console that's only producing first-party games every once in a while (no matter how good they are), and I think a lot of people feel the same way.

 

[Ricerocket]

This thing had a price drop? How much was it initially?? I thought it was always 299.00 USD??

$350 -> $299. Where the hell were you at launch?

 

[Kimosabae]

$350 -> $299. Where the hell were you at launch?

lol. Shows how little I cared for this system (and Nintendo) a year ago.

 

[Astery]

Popular Nintendo IPs are not front sale loaders most of the time, but tend to have long legs. I'm not surprised by the low sales either, given that the interest in the system itself ain't high as say DS was, plus the lower install base.

 

[Ishan]

This argument makes no sense when the numbers of n64s sold when Super Mario 64 came out was 0 and Nintendo had brutal competition back then yet SM64 easily outsold 3D world.

launch hype .

 

[Riposte]

They should put "Make gamepad optional" on the blackboard, because that's where the most meaningful price drop will come from. Probably won't ever happen though.

 

[God Dayumm]

It did nothing.

Because the price drop was nothing. Only $50 and then many retailers haven't caught up to it yet. The bundle I want is $330 on Amazon from some scalper seller. Not a very attractive offer.

 

[Freezie KO]

When you have people actively rooting for a game to fail regardless of quality, despite the caricature it's still based in some kind of truth.

There is no strawman here, there is a swath of GAF that'll literally come into every single Wii U thread and shit it up because they don't like the fact that Nintendo didn't make a PS4/isn't going 3rd party/whatever.

If you feel that you're part of the caricature he's describing then perhaps its not his assessment that's the issue. Since you're not a usual suspect I see in every thread I can't judge your demeanor but the post he made is pretty accurate for quite a few people. Would you prefer he just listed names off instead?

Instead of listing off names, how about quoting posts? In fact, the quote button even automatically puts the name there. It's so easy.

It's a strawman. And your post is too. I don't care if Nintendo makes a PS4 (I wanted them to go with a Remote 2.0, and I think most PS4 games look like PS3 games with candy sprinkles). I don't want them to go third party. Yet I do hope for this game to underperform. So I don't fit into your simplistic caricature either.

 

[Anticitizen One]

3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.

 

[Loco4Coco]

3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.

LOL.

 

[lifeexpectancy]

Eh, honestly I think one of the base problems of the Wii U is simple competition and word of mouth in an era of increased speed of communication. We're in an era where the Wii U can demonstrably be shown to be basically equivalent to a 360 / PS3 by smart individuals who rip the damn things open....or at the least make cogent arguments to make it seem that way. Throw in a couple of multiplats that confirm it (or make it look worse) and that news spreads. People who don't understand the why's or how parrot the information, even if it doesn't matter. Very quickly the Wii U is "underpowered". A cut., but not fatal.

Then you throw in the pricepoint versus its peers. It's not favorable and meshes with the power argument very poorly. Another cut.

The looming arrival of the PS4 and XB1 cast a big shadow. The thought of "Man, the PS3 was $599, how much are these going to cost? Maybe I don't want to splurge yet...?" The underlying thought process that the new machines would probably be better than the 360 and PS3, machines the Wii U is roughly equivalent to? Another cut.

Announcements arrive, specs are discussed, and the original batch of people like myself who grew up with Nintendo go "Wow, these look good." The hardcore Nintendo fans among us still get the Wii U. They love the games and life is good. Those of us who remember Mario fondly smile, but we also currently have grown up and grown to love Dark Souls and Battlefield and COD and Uncharted and The Last of Us.....and sacrifice the few games for the many.

It's not that we don't want Mario or Mario Kart or Smash or Zelda. We do. There's a lot of other games we want, to, though, and the online world that is the Internet makes the comparisons easy. It doesn't even have to be a correct comparison some of the times, the speed at which things moves just let certain comparisons dominate. Then it becomes a personal decision for many with money being an important factor. More for less. Cut cut cut....

Finally, the Wii U was more expensive than the original Wii, scaring away the initial glut of casuals that made the Wii successful. Combine that with Wii Fit and Wii Sports are no longer new. The fad had dissipated or could be replicated on other systems (Kinect 1 did sell like gangbusters....a missed point by many). Combine that with perceived equivalency of the system with the Kinect 1 and 360 combo? Another cut.

Those of us with children find reasons to justify it. I could get my son or daughter Mario, or I could get them Lego (insert name here) and Knack and get myself (insert game here)? I think I'll serve us both!

The ridiculously plentiful ads and trailers make it easy to justify. Hell, my 360 has the Gametrailers app that I can just watch and get these ideas from! Our parents always purchased for just us, not us AND themselves. Zee final cut.

Death by a thousand cuts.

It's not Mario that's the problem. It's the overall ecosystem and competition for the Wii U.

This guy gets it. I love Mario. I grew up on Mario games. I was still playing Mario as an adult with 64 and Gamecube. But nowadays, there are just too many reasons NOT to get a Wii U and the new Mario games, and too few reasons TO get one.

I love games. All kinds of games. I refuse to pay $300-350 for a system where the ONLY games I can see myself playing on it are the handful of Nintendo IPs. If I were in the market today for a system and couldn't afford a PS4 or XB1, I certainly wouldn't jump in at the Wii U's price point for such a limited selection when I could get a 250gb 360e or 500gb PS3 super slim, with over a thousand titles to choose from on each, for a mere $199. Rayman legends would cover my platformer desires just as well as any Mario game, even though it's not a true comparison b/c Rayman is 2D and Mario3DW is 3D. Still, it would suffice, and does in fact (own Rayman Legends on my 360 and may double dip for it on the XB1).

Unforunately nothing has really filled the hole that Zelda leaves in my gaming world on other consoles, but like I said sacrificing the depth and breadth of other consoles' libraries in favor of a more expensive Wii U for one or two titles I'd like just doesn't make any sense for most of us adult gamers in our late 20s or 30s.

If/when the WiiU ever finally hits the $150 price point, or $199 with a pro controller, I may bite, but not until then.

 

[Sciz]

3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.

You can't be real.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.

Sure. For all the you's that really care about that.

I'd say getting near universal acclaim from the press and vocal fans was more important.

 

[Loco4Coco]

You can't be real.

Did he get banned?

 

[tiggerkiddo]

3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.

Wart isn't really that memorable in the grand scheme of things.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"

Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."

*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"

*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"

*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*

"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."

*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"

*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*

*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*

Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:

"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"

Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.

 

[Biker19]

No, hardware power alone doesn't stifle creativity, but when you combine it with a business model that caters exclusively to an audience that only settles for the most cutting-edge graphics (for consoles), than it certainly does lead to bad situations. Third-parties could just make a graphically competent game and put their resources elsewhere, but they'll never do it because they're trapped in an arms race with other third-parties to make the most stand-out graphics for their audience. Developing games is not a zero-sum situation, but third-parties know that graphics sells, and they're much easier to improve on and advertise than gameplay. So if it's a choice between putting more money into either graphics or gameplay (which it is. don't kid yourself into thinking third-parties have infinite resources and can just do "both"), they'll put their money into graphics almost every time.

Do you really think that it's better hardware or better graphics that increases development costs? Seriously? They don't. Look at EA with Crysis. At the time, that was the best looking game on the PC, & that game was only ran off of a $23 million budget.

If development costs are increasing, it's because of mismanagement from publishers when it comes to spending too much money on development of games &/or spending too much money on advertising/marketing the games. All because that most 3rd party publishers want their games to be the next COD in sales.

Plus thanks to the PS4's technology being very similar to PC, it'll be easier and less expensive for game studios to develop games for the console (they talk about it here, & here).

 

[Chindogg]

Instead of listing off names, how about quoting posts? In fact, the quote button even automatically puts the name there. It's so easy.

It's a strawman. And your post is too. I don't care if Nintendo makes a PS4 (I wanted them to go with a Remote 2.0, and I think most PS4 games look like PS3 games with candy sprinkles). I don't want them to go third party. Yet I do hope for this game to underperform. So I don't fit into your simplistic caricature either.

The fact that you're the first one to respond to said accusations makes this much more hilarious. I don't think GAF would allow me the space in a single post to paste every shit post you've made over the past two weeks.

And yes, when I read this caricature I thought of you specifically.

 

[Spieler Eins]

Ambition isn't important in itself; ambition is striving to do something. It is only the end result we feel. What they are ambitious towards? Making a good game. Some degree of ambition is required to achieve good results, but only measuring the ambition (however this is even possible, or accurate based on the little you may know about game development) is placing the cart before the horse. You've become so nostalgic to earlier sensations of novelty that it has blinded you to the initial appeal of videogames. Not the newness they are wrapped in, but the fun derived from complex interactivity and feedback.

Even so, the whole idea that Mario is a consistent "game-changer" is a myth to begin with. It is clearly untrue from SMB1 to (actual) SMB2 to SMB3 to SMBW, none of these are giant leaps. SM64, of course, is. That's a jump you only make once though. Moreover, it is not like SM64 invented 3D gaming, it merely made a fine selection of 3D mechanics. It made the best of new fertile ground. From there on you get nothing even nearly comparable to being one of the first successful 3D games. Galaxy? There is nothing particularly special going on with Galaxy, nothing that makes it "game-changer" (especially the meaningful changing of other games and which are made). It has a gravity-themed mechanic (although sometimes it is little more than a visual effect, i.e. a "gimmick") that may or may not contribute to fun in a 3D platformer, but not much else.

Perhaps the failure here is that you've turned some of the previous Mario games into something "sacred" because you hold newness as something sacred; a feat of magic... a "game-changer". You care too much about "change" and not enough about "game". You want Miyamoto to be a goddamn wizard so that you can be a pre-teen again. This is your way with dealing with the natural process of us becoming desensitized to stimuli. Its the dumber, shallow way out; the only way that can provide instant gratification if you've been around the block. This rage against Mario has nothing to do with 2D or 3D platforming mechanics; it hardly has to do with any genre (as even genres eventually "grow old" and require an appreciation for depth and fine design to remain interesting if one cannot find something "new" from it). The jump to 3D has happened, and can only happen, once. You want to overcome decreasing returns, so much so that you overrated what "magic" was being done with Galaxy. To accept that there is no "magic", that "newness" isn't very important in itself, would kill a large part of the appeal of videogames for you. It would take away what you've been using them as vehicles for.

If there's no way out, start devaluing past Nintendo games? Just because Mario 64 had the biggest jump, doesn't mean the others had none at all - like 3D World does now. SMW was an obvious generational leap in presentation, so was Sunshine. Before they started rehashing concepts, you always had at least one title for each generation that tried to change up core concepts, aesthetics and simply being perfectly suited to the new hardware. Sunshine might have failed, but it at least tried to experiment by being based around water mechanics while offering (at the time) amazing visuals. Galaxy was of course completely different from Sunshine, trying to downplay ,,nothing but gravity lolol'' in comparison to cat suits is funny, to say the least. Shit, for some reason Galaxy managed to be an event when it came out and Miyamoto didn't even need to become a youth wizard - man, I sure wonder why that is... lol
The reality is they never before dared to simply put a direct sequel (of a 2 year old handheld game on top of that) on a new home console that also happens to look worse than fucking Mario Kart and some 2 year old Sonic game - which automatically makes this title less ambitious than it's predecessors, no downplaying Galaxy in hindsight is gonna change that. Which would be okay, if the WiiU otherwise would have had a start on par with the GCN or Wii - but no, it was their worst first year ever with nothing but straight rehashes, map packs (including another unremarkable Mario game) and a couple of niche titles that were sent to die. It's a console with nothing but poor efforts solely based on last gen leftovers because they were once successful, now culminating in their flagship title that isn't even up on par with it's predecessors. And as expected, no spamming comparison gifs or high metacritic was ever gonna change that it's a map pack (if the minimal file size wasn't proof enough already) which is thankfully rejected by the home console audience that Nintendo is treating like shit right now. Casuals won't see the difference between this and 3D Land, just like with NSMBU, and hence no value in a console that offers nothing unique outside of that. (Including the controller which sees less use from devs than the Wiimote does even on WiiU) Meanwhile, you sure as hell could have never confused the orginal Mario Land with Mario World regardless of how much of an (un)informed gamer you were.

 

[Freezie KO]

The fact that you're the first one to respond to said accusations makes this much more hilarious. I don't think GAF would allow me the space in a single post to paste every shit post you've made over the past two weeks.

And yes, when I read this caricature I thought of you specifically.

Which is exactly why such a caricature is inaccurate, because that doesn't reflect each of my views. But simple arguments for simple people...