Exactly. A device that focuses on everyone usually ends up not focusing on anything.Your line of thought is what got Nintendo into the mess they're in. It's not possible to serve both the hardcore audience and the casual audience from day one without sacrificing something. And the hardcore audience is certainly more important than the casual one at the beginning. It's like you're learning nothing from the Wii U when one of their exact aims was to try just that. Good luck with these hopes because it will never happen. No games company is stupid enough to try what you're suggesting. Well Nintendo was, and we're seeing how that's turning out for them. Both Sony and Microsoft keep both audiences in mind, but are also smart enough to know when to prioritise.
Such a simple point I'm amazed I don't see it more often. The most powerful platform there is also gets the most creative and lowest budget games."Innovation" and "creativity" and "gameplay" have long been the flawed catchcry defense of underpowered hardware. Hardware power does not force developer homogeneity. Hardware power does not stifle "creativity." Hardware power does not, in itself, drive up development costs.
"Innovation" is not a synonym for changing control inputs.
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.
You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.
Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.
You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.
Words cannot describe how much I hate these kinds of posts.
You cannot generalize vast swaths of people like this, especially in such a dismissive, caricatured way.
I nominate this for best post that will not see responses because it's easier to let it get buried than argue against it. Not that I've never done that but it'd take one hell of an inspired argument to dispute this.
So can they go back to creating an ACTUAL 2D Mario game, with NEW worlds, NEW enemies, and NEW power ups, instead of half assing it like they do with the recent 2d Mario games?
I like Galaxy, 64, and Sunshine just as much anyone else, but come on now.
Also, isn't Christmas 'shopping' celebrated in Japan, not in a religious sense but more as an event.
I assume you mean the PC? The PC market works because it has healthy digital distribution platform and doesn't have nearly the same expectations placed on it that new consoles do. Ironically, it's one platform where both audiences can both co-exist without any discrimination. By making it very clear from the start what benefits powerful hardware can convey, there isn't the same graphics arms-race among publishers to find the next big thing in that area. It occurs, but it's not nearly as all-consuming as it is on consoles.Such a simple point I'm amazed I don't see it more often. The most powerful platform there is also gets the most creative and lowest budget games.
Gaf is not a single collectiveAngry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"
Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."
*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"
*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"
*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."
*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"
*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*
*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"
Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.
SM3DW is exactly what I wanted from a new mario, I am glad they stepped away from NSMB, sales problems aside, I respect them greatly for SM3DW and ALBW. I got a PS4 but still find my Wii U purchase more than justified between WW and SM3DW.
Yes, because it should be readily apparent to anyone that "Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF" is clearly a very non-specific term meant to represent a wide swath of all disappointed Nintendo fans on the forum and wasn't directed at a very select, (hopefully) small group of people who are going over board to slam a game's merits based on disappointing sales and was in no way intended to be hyperbolic in any fashion.
I'm in the same boat. It makes me genuinely sad to see people being so negative about the whole thing.
Then maybe you should stay away from sales threads if you can't handle the realities of how the console and its games are performing.
Ambition isn't important in itself; ambition is striving to do something. It is only the end result we feel. What they are ambitious towards? Making a good game. Some degree of ambition is required to achieve good results, but only measuring the ambition (however this is even possible, or accurate based on the little you may know about game development) is placing the cart before the horse. You've become so nostalgic to earlier sensations of novelty that it has blinded you to the initial appeal of videogames. Not the newness they are wrapped in, but the fun derived from complex interactivity and feedback.
Even so, the whole idea that Mario is a consistent "game-changer" is a myth to begin with. It is clearly untrue from SMB1 to (actual) SMB2 to SMB3 to SMBW, none of these are giant leaps. SM64, of course, is. That's a jump you only make once though. Moreover, it is not like SM64 invented 3D gaming, it merely made a fine selection of 3D mechanics. It made the best of new fertile ground. From there on you get nothing even nearly comparable to being one of the first successful 3D games. Galaxy? There is nothing particularly special going on with Galaxy, nothing that makes it "game-changer" (especially the meaningful changing of other games and which are made). It has a gravity-themed mechanic (although sometimes it is little more than a visual effect, i.e. a "gimmick") that may or may not contribute to fun in a 3D platformer, but not much else.
Perhaps the failure here is that you've turned some of the previous Mario games into something "sacred" because you hold newness as something sacred; a feat of magic... a "game-changer". You care too much about "change" and not enough about "game". You want Miyamoto to be a goddamn wizard so that you can be a pre-teen again. This is your way with dealing with the natural process of us becoming desensitized to stimuli. Its the dumber, shallow way out; the only way that can provide instant gratification if you've been around the block. This rage against Mario has nothing to do with 2D or 3D platforming mechanics; it hardly has to do with any genre (as even genres eventually "grow old" and require an appreciation for depth and fine design to remain interesting if one cannot find something "new" from it). The jump to 3D has happened, and can only happen, once. You want to overcome decreasing returns, so much so that you overrated what "magic" was being done with Galaxy. To accept that there is no "magic", that "newness" isn't very important in itself, would kill a large part of the appeal of videogames for you. It would take away what you've been using them as vehicles for.
Don't know why I'm bothering though. Fallacy stacked upon fallacy would be the best way to define your style of argument. I think I saw you mention metacritic scores lol
EDIT: After looking at a quote, I see that I didn't write this very well. Too late to proofread this now, but w/e.
I don't care how much you tried to narrow it down. The sample size was both under-inclusive and over-inclusive. And just plain wrong about some people's motivation.
I know it's easy to knock others down if you strawman them, but the truth is that they aren't as contradictory or plain absurd as you construct them to be.
This has nothing to do with me wanting to be a pre-teen and more about Nintendo making a Mario game that actually is appealing enough to sell systems which 3D World never was. Your an eloquent writer but your points are baloney.
Why is "Pricedrop" crossed off in that GIF?
Are people surprised by this? Of course it's going to be the lowest debut, it has the lowest install base and if it's going to shift systems it'll do it over time not in one big go.
This. You can't move tons of copies of a game if you haven't moved a large enough number of systems. Sill, I was kinda expecting the attach rate to be better.
Why is "Pricedrop" crossed off in that GIF?
Because it had no significant effect on the Wii U's sales?
This thing had a price drop? How much was it initially?? I thought it was always 299.00 USD??
$350 -> $299. Where the hell were you at launch?
This argument makes no sense when the numbers of n64s sold when Super Mario 64 came out was 0 and Nintendo had brutal competition back then yet SM64 easily outsold 3D world.
It did nothing.
When you have people actively rooting for a game to fail regardless of quality, despite the caricature it's still based in some kind of truth.
There is no strawman here, there is a swath of GAF that'll literally come into every single Wii U thread and shit it up because they don't like the fact that Nintendo didn't make a PS4/isn't going 3rd party/whatever.
If you feel that you're part of the caricature he's describing then perhaps its not his assessment that's the issue. Since you're not a usual suspect I see in every thread I can't judge your demeanor but the post he made is pretty accurate for quite a few people. Would you prefer he just listed names off instead?
3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.
Eh, honestly I think one of the base problems of the Wii U is simple competition and word of mouth in an era of increased speed of communication. We're in an era where the Wii U can demonstrably be shown to be basically equivalent to a 360 / PS3 by smart individuals who rip the damn things open....or at the least make cogent arguments to make it seem that way. Throw in a couple of multiplats that confirm it (or make it look worse) and that news spreads. People who don't understand the why's or how parrot the information, even if it doesn't matter. Very quickly the Wii U is "underpowered". A cut., but not fatal.
Then you throw in the pricepoint versus its peers. It's not favorable and meshes with the power argument very poorly. Another cut.
The looming arrival of the PS4 and XB1 cast a big shadow. The thought of "Man, the PS3 was $599, how much are these going to cost? Maybe I don't want to splurge yet...?" The underlying thought process that the new machines would probably be better than the 360 and PS3, machines the Wii U is roughly equivalent to? Another cut.
Announcements arrive, specs are discussed, and the original batch of people like myself who grew up with Nintendo go "Wow, these look good." The hardcore Nintendo fans among us still get the Wii U. They love the games and life is good. Those of us who remember Mario fondly smile, but we also currently have grown up and grown to love Dark Souls and Battlefield and COD and Uncharted and The Last of Us.....and sacrifice the few games for the many.
It's not that we don't want Mario or Mario Kart or Smash or Zelda. We do. There's a lot of other games we want, to, though, and the online world that is the Internet makes the comparisons easy. It doesn't even have to be a correct comparison some of the times, the speed at which things moves just let certain comparisons dominate. Then it becomes a personal decision for many with money being an important factor. More for less. Cut cut cut....
Finally, the Wii U was more expensive than the original Wii, scaring away the initial glut of casuals that made the Wii successful. Combine that with Wii Fit and Wii Sports are no longer new. The fad had dissipated or could be replicated on other systems (Kinect 1 did sell like gangbusters....a missed point by many). Combine that with perceived equivalency of the system with the Kinect 1 and 360 combo? Another cut.
Those of us with children find reasons to justify it. I could get my son or daughter Mario, or I could get them Lego (insert name here) and Knack and get myself (insert game here)? I think I'll serve us both!
The ridiculously plentiful ads and trailers make it easy to justify. Hell, my 360 has the Gametrailers app that I can just watch and get these ideas from! Our parents always purchased for just us, not us AND themselves. Zee final cut.
Death by a thousand cuts.
It's not Mario that's the problem. It's the overall ecosystem and competition for the Wii U.
3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.
3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.
You can't be real.
3D World would have probably sold a lot better if it had new enemies and new villains. Why didn't they just use Wart as the main bad guy and have the game take place in Subcon? They would have sold few thousand more on nostalgia alone.
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"
Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."
*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"
*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"
*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."
*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"
*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*
*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"
Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.
No, hardware power alone doesn't stifle creativity, but when you combine it with a business model that caters exclusively to an audience that only settles for the most cutting-edge graphics (for consoles), than it certainly does lead to bad situations. Third-parties could just make a graphically competent game and put their resources elsewhere, but they'll never do it because they're trapped in an arms race with other third-parties to make the most stand-out graphics for their audience. Developing games is not a zero-sum situation, but third-parties know that graphics sells, and they're much easier to improve on and advertise than gameplay. So if it's a choice between putting more money into either graphics or gameplay (which it is. don't kid yourself into thinking third-parties have infinite resources and can just do "both"), they'll put their money into graphics almost every time.
Instead of listing off names, how about quoting posts? In fact, the quote button even automatically puts the name there. It's so easy.
It's a strawman. And your post is too. I don't care if Nintendo makes a PS4 (I wanted them to go with a Remote 2.0, and I think most PS4 games look like PS3 games with candy sprinkles). I don't want them to go third party. Yet I do hope for this game to underperform. So I don't fit into your simplistic caricature either.
Ambition isn't important in itself; ambition is striving to do something. It is only the end result we feel. What they are ambitious towards? Making a good game. Some degree of ambition is required to achieve good results, but only measuring the ambition (however this is even possible, or accurate based on the little you may know about game development) is placing the cart before the horse. You've become so nostalgic to earlier sensations of novelty that it has blinded you to the initial appeal of videogames. Not the newness they are wrapped in, but the fun derived from complex interactivity and feedback.
Even so, the whole idea that Mario is a consistent "game-changer" is a myth to begin with. It is clearly untrue from SMB1 to (actual) SMB2 to SMB3 to SMBW, none of these are giant leaps. SM64, of course, is. That's a jump you only make once though. Moreover, it is not like SM64 invented 3D gaming, it merely made a fine selection of 3D mechanics. It made the best of new fertile ground. From there on you get nothing even nearly comparable to being one of the first successful 3D games. Galaxy? There is nothing particularly special going on with Galaxy, nothing that makes it "game-changer" (especially the meaningful changing of other games and which are made). It has a gravity-themed mechanic (although sometimes it is little more than a visual effect, i.e. a "gimmick") that may or may not contribute to fun in a 3D platformer, but not much else.
Perhaps the failure here is that you've turned some of the previous Mario games into something "sacred" because you hold newness as something sacred; a feat of magic... a "game-changer". You care too much about "change" and not enough about "game". You want Miyamoto to be a goddamn wizard so that you can be a pre-teen again. This is your way with dealing with the natural process of us becoming desensitized to stimuli. Its the dumber, shallow way out; the only way that can provide instant gratification if you've been around the block. This rage against Mario has nothing to do with 2D or 3D platforming mechanics; it hardly has to do with any genre (as even genres eventually "grow old" and require an appreciation for depth and fine design to remain interesting if one cannot find something "new" from it). The jump to 3D has happened, and can only happen, once. You want to overcome decreasing returns, so much so that you overrated what "magic" was being done with Galaxy. To accept that there is no "magic", that "newness" isn't very important in itself, would kill a large part of the appeal of videogames for you. It would take away what you've been using them as vehicles for.
The fact that you're the first one to respond to said accusations makes this much more hilarious. I don't think GAF would allow me the space in a single post to paste every shit post you've made over the past two weeks.
And yes, when I read this caricature I thought of you specifically.