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A critique of Destiny 2's issues (power, loot, end-game) by one of the top players

ACR0019

Member
Couldn't a lot of these complaints be addressed by making every activity as rewarding and engaging as public events? Most are still a blast even when they only drop blues -- tho injection rig needs to die in a ditch already

Public events as the new hotness shouldn't come as a huge surprise since Noseworthy hinted in a tweet that D2 public events were going to be significantly improved and a major design goal.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Some people have fun shooting. Others have fun in an excel type of environment where the thrill is seeing numbers and bars go up.

Destiny 2 has been tuned to suit players who enjoy shooting. The other crowd is like “why what’s the point I have everything and my numbers won’t go higher”. While the rest of us are like “well shooting stuff is fun so that’s why I do it”.

You can really please both crowds. They made a compromise they thought would cater to the larger of those two crowds. Let’s see how it plays out.
Well for now it looks to be the small of these two crowds.
 
I think in general, his view is a very negative outlook on the game, emphasising the negative attributes and neglecting the positive of many of Bungie's design decisions. This is a perspective that overall, is a little narrow, and I personally think one that could be harmful for Bungie to pursue. Particualrly as it neglects to acknowledge any of the benefits of the design decisions that lead to these issues. Because that's the thing, for example it's a shame I don't feel more powerup when I level up, but at the same time, I'm glad of the fact that I'm not leaving my friends behind when I do, his post doesn't acknowledge these, any many other benefits of Bungie's design decisions. I do have some similar thoughts however, but I think his suggestions that balance doesn't matter, as if Destiny

On Balance

One thing to remember, is that balance and fairness, aren't the same thing. One of the problems that the original Destiny had, was that it had only a very small number of weapons that felt unbalanced, and that created a tremendous problem. It meant that the game lacked variety, and ways to play it. In year one, if you weren't using the Thorn, people didn't want you on their trials team, if you weren't using the Ghalahorn, people didn't want you in the Raid. The issue here is not that the game was unbalanced, but that the game was unfair.

A big issue with weapons like the Thorn, is that they caused the game to feel unfair. Yes, technically everyone in the game had the same tools available to them, yes, everyone could grind it out and use the Thorn, but if you tried to use anything else in PvP, the game felt unfair. That sense of lack of fairness existed to a lesser extent in PvE, as you were at a significant disadvantage to your peers if you didn't have the right weapons. It wasn't explicitly unbalanced, it was unfair, and that absolutely affects the user experience.

While balance might be a bad thing for PvE, it's been a good thing for PvP. Destiny 2's Crucible still has its share of issues, but it's been a better experience than Destiny 1's thus far, one that feels fairer, more rewarding, and between the competitive and regular playlist, one that feels more compelling to particulate in. A big part of that has been the fact that it consistently feels fairer than the original. The one-shot snipers and shotguns are gone, meaning players can better understand why they died, and learn what they can do to prevent that from happening next time, and the toned down supers and absurdly overpowered exotics also contribute it being a better experience.

Back onto the topic of fairness and balance not being the same thing - you can create a game that's unbalanced, but one that feels fair so long as you ensure that the player can easily attribute their actions to their outcome. For instance, Fortnite and Player Unknown Battlegrounds are inherently unbalanced games. The encounters depend on whether the player has the right items, but at the same time, failure doesn't feel like it's something that was outside of the players control. Even though there's variance applied to attaining a sniper rifle, there are actionable behaviours that player can pursue to create a deliberate strategy to enable them to perform better.

If the player ends the game with simply a pistol, failing to find anything, they can attribute that outcome to their prior decisions. Everything from where they choose to land, to where they loot, who they choose to shoot, the player can mostly trace the outcome of the match back to their own decision. Despite being unbalanced, the game possesses a sense of agency that still enables it to feel fair, and that's why it remains fun. Because when you end a game, you think about means in which you could have done better, not the fact that the guy only killed you because the game didn't give you the right stuff.

With Destiny 1, it didn't work that way. Why were you struggling on the raid? Well, you hadn't dropped the Ghallahorn. What actionable behaviour could you do to adjust that? Well, nothing. The game was unbalanced, and that felt unfair because the issue was not attributable to any of the players decisions, or anything the player was presently able to action on.

In theory, a potential answer then, is to allow gear to be overpowered, but at the same time, to make that equipment accessible. Destiny 1's problem was that a very small body of gear was overpowered, much of which had to be dropped at complete random, meaning that it was easy for the game, and in particular, PvP, to feel unfair because there was nothing tangible that the player could accessibly action on, to get better at the game.

This doesn't mean that balance doesn't matter. This doesn't mean that being able to use a variety of weapons in PvP doesn't matter, and it doesn't mean that Destiny 1 and its experience should be held on a pedestal compared to Destiny 2.

On Power Level

I think the authors' perspective is very narrow here. I think some of the argument is valid, but in general he only emphasises the disadvantages of the power system, and excludes all of the benefits. One of the most crucial benefits of the fact that in general, power level doesn't mean all that much is exclusivity. As someone who's played a tremendous number of MMOs, where your level and minute details of your equipment absolutely matter, it's easy to understand the disadvantages (and advantages) of those systems.

Significantly, on the one hand, an impactful, progressive power escalation of the player helps make the player feel powerful, but it also, typically creates a multiplayer culture where the community is segregated into many distinct compartments. Games with progressive power levels have to have tremendous concern with players at all levels of power, because they want all players, to have meaningful content to engage with.

As an example, a game I used to play was called Wakfu. It featured 200 levels that the player could progress to, and as a consequence of that, players that were level 200, had no real incentive to play with players that were 160, or 80. It took time to progress, and the developers placed emphasis on the impact of your progression, with a significant, and meaningful escalation of your abilities and power. The issue here, is that you can't just leave the players that are level 80, 120, 180 with nothing to do. The developers had to provide content for all of them.

That particular game, features more than 60 dungeons (equivocal to strikes) for players to engage with, with different dungeons being the point of focus for players at different levels. Problematically, Destiny can't facilitate that, if you want to make level 305 feel like it really means something, then you're going to need to add content to players that are 305. If it's just the same raid with higher difficulty modifiers, players are going to complain that they have nothing to do, as soon as they beat it. If you add a new raid, or new body of content exclusively for these players, then well, that's simply a tremendous amount of work that I don't think Bungie are obligated to provide. I don't think anyone can say that Destiny short changed them, even if they now feel they have nothing to do.

You could make power have a greater impact on damage, even if it didn't grant access to new content, but then you'd be likely to split community, between those that were at the right power level, and those that weren't there, deemed useless because they weren't 305. I don't think Bungie want that, it just isn't that type of game. They don't want to sacrifice the inclusivity that the game currently features, and I think that's only likely to be spun into a bad thing by the most hardcore of players.

On Loot and Rewards

I feel that the sense of loot and rewards, is the real problem. I agree, and I have said this weeks ago, that there's no sense of reward description engrams and packages when all they provide you are duplicates which offer no variance.

Bungie want players to integrate this game into their daily lives, everything else about its design, the daily challenges, the milestones, suggests that Bungie want players to come back and play the game, every day. However, why come back tomorrow when the rewards you attain are likely to be the same as the rewards you attained today? The loot system is in disagreement with many of Destiny's other systems, and this is the problem that sits at the heart of the game, not all of this other nonsense.

Reflecting back on my remarks about balanced and fairness, Bungie need to drastically enhance the sense of reward that players get from the game (engrams, packages etc), while at the same time, retaining a sense of fairness where the players feel as though their are actionable behaviours that they can pursue to obtain each particular thing. The idea the author suggests of being able to combine weapons, is a decent suggestion, as it enables players to pursue something specific, and gives players a clear means of doing so, however there are also many others. Being able to reroll individual perks with legendary marks could achieve something similar.

At the same time, I think could be valuable to make exotics, feel more exotic. By the same logic suggested above, provided that players can perform clear actions to pursue a particular item, the game can retain a sense of fairness, while at the same time, being unbalanced. That's the same sense of balance that many competitive shooters have. No one playing Uncharted 4 thinks the AK-47 is as viable as the FAL, or Mettler, but the game doesn't feel broken because there are many alternatives to the better weapons (variety) and all of the weapons are readily available to select (accessibility). With variety and accessibility you can create a competitive environment that feels fair, even if it's unbalanced (MOBAs are another good example of this).

Just my thoughts as a player of the game. I'm not a game designer.
 
Some people have fun shooting. Others have fun in an excel type of environment where the thrill is seeing numbers and bars go up.

Destiny 2 has been tuned to suit players who enjoy shooting. The other crowd is like “why what’s the point I have everything and my numbers won’t go higher”. While the rest of us are like “well shooting stuff is fun so that’s why I do it”.

You can really please both crowds. They made a compromise they thought would cater to the larger of those two crowds. Let’s see how it plays out.
It's not that, it's "what's the point of the number going higher past 280?".

It's literally the opposite of what you're reading it as. People see their power level go up, and then nothing happens. You don't get stronger as you can't be over-levelled in Destiny, you don't unlock any significant new experience past 280, you've been able to use all of the guns and armour you've got since half your level ago. What's the point in the level?

People aren't wanting the numbers to keep going up, they're wondering why they keep going up at all. There's no reason to go from 280 to 305 other than a more time limited version of what you've run already that gives you a light above your head, or a reworked version of the raid that could literally be made as hard at 280 by just increasing the enemy damage and health.
 

Bold One

Member
Truly silly can people ever just play games? can people be positive? lol

In times like these, I just like to quote the great Hawkian, for he hath shown us the way.

I see this misguided logic applied often, look at all the people yelling, surely indicative of a massive failure! If they don't correct x, they'll be sorry, just look at all the people complaining about it.

I've yet to be convinced, in terms of launch design without really any knowledge of where the game will go, they made the wrong call.

In this industry, if your game has a playerbase of a certain size, any decision, even those that seem inconsequential (or universally positive) are going to be resented by some percentage of that playerbase. What's more is that the number of people resenting it isn't likely to appreciably change from event to event, just which subset of the total playerbase is upset by it. Sometimes this resentment is invisible, as when decisions are made that screw over the lowest common denominator, a player who does not and will not ever have a NeoGAF account nor post on a forum of any kind about videogames. Sometimes the resentment is mild, as when the decision is made that impacts the median player but does not impact the fringes. Sometimes the resentment is at a fever pitch, as when the decision primarily impacts the vocal minority at the far high end of the spectrum.

Any of these can be "an issue" of course, And live software development is ever an unwinnable game of triage and prioritization to try and fix things that are showstoppers, improve systems for the greatest number of users with the resources available, and add new things to an existing framework, all without breaking anything in the process. Sometimes you're more successful than others.

But for these games, failure is not contingent on any number of complaints. Failure is silence. History strongly indicates that those complaining the loudest also have a high likelihood of playing for another few hundred hours regardless. Meanwhile by design the game attempts to cater to people who may very well not be 100% happy with the product, but are also less likely to ever even experience the problems being described most vocally.

I can guarantee you for example that Bungie considers the posts about people hitting 265 and feeling roadblocked by poor conveyance of the path ahead to be a higher priority issue than the much more fervent and frequent posts by regulars about having "nothing to do." This was a soft cap they attempted to smooth over during initial progression with some success, but I would wager they are unhappy with anyone feeling frustrated at this point in the journey- especially because they simply may not know all of the avenues of progression available.

It makes both good business sense and design sense to prioritize that issue and its potential reappearance going forward- even if a lot of us at the high end of the spectrum never had that issue, rocketing easily past 265 in the first few days, and couldn't care less about it now. Probably many would consider it dumb to allocate any resources to it that could be spent improving things for the most devoted players of the game instead.

But that's a perspective problem and nothing more.

There's a very simple binary at play either: either you enjoy actually playing the game or you don't.
If you do, then your vertical progression is not the source of this enjoyment but merely the way you unlock all the options. It's just how you ensure that you can do whatever you want to do.
If you don't, but would be compelled to play anyway by the introduction of "more to do" in a checklist sense, that's a problem. It's not a failing of the game that it does not encourage people who aren't having fun to continue playing anyway.

The version of the game that simultaneously pleases all types of players in equal measure does not and cannot exist. I've talked about this exact thing so many times, for many different games. I can find big-ass posts I made from five years ago about the same topic, back when I actually enjoyed the arguments themselves. Now having seen exactly how cyclical it is it's just boring.

I don't care at all how casual or hardcore you are. What matters to me is whether or not you're having fun. That's the basis of every attempt I make to help others; it's fun for me, hopefully it makes things more fun for them. If you aren't having fun there is literally nothing for you here that would make this worthwhile and never will be.

For my part, it does feel a little weird to see some of the hand-wringing, since I'm around 150 hours and I'm not "done" even in the more traditional progression/stuff to do sense:

-In collection terms, I don't have all the exotic weapons, let alone all exotic armor pieces, let alone all of the legendary weapons I want that are currently in the game, let alone all legendary armor and weapons.
-I don't have the two fully optimized armor/mod sets I want on my main character, let alone my other 2
-Only two of my characters are at 305/base level 300
-I don't have 305 versions of many of the weapons and armor pieces I use regularly
-I haven't done all the Adventures
-I haven't done the Prestige Raid (obviously), which I am interested in for the challenge itself
-I would love to go Flawless in Trials, at least once

One interpretation might be that it is my own "fault" that I have played so much and haven't accomplished all/more of these things yet. I suppose that is fair. I could have played more efficiently and focused solely on the most completion/progression possible over time. But would I have enjoyed myself more under those circumstances? Or is it more likely I would simply have more to complain about right now?

Then there's the stuff I don't have to check off a list but keeps me playing anyway. I also generally enjoy the PvP and I'm better at it than I was in D1. I find rolling with a competent team very satisfying and I've always enjoyed Iron Banner, and vastly prefer the Control gametype in D2 to its D1 incarnation, so I'm excited. I am also looking forward to running weekly newbie raids which is its own challenge and reward. Even if playing with DGAF wasn't the most compelling reason to keep playing regardless of content for me- which it is- there's legitimately still plenty for me to do even as an "almost hardcore" player.

But therein lies the rub... Destiny 2 isn't the only game I play. There's a massive new GW2 expansion I've barely been able to sink my teeth into. Cuphead is fantastic and scratches a completely different itch than anything I've played recently. Nioh, which I scrambled to beat in advance of this coming out, has multiple DLCs I haven't touched including one that came out last goddamn week. Despite over 90 hours in Hyrule I still haven't beaten Ganon in BotW, And I heard there's some game coming out this month with a plumber in it or something, I think it's a new IP.

There's no reason that someone with the free time I have available should expect any single game to indefinitely hold my interest for both hours per session and months per year. Even if it could do a better job of it, there's no way I could be convinced that it would be better for Destiny 2 to occupy literally all of my gaming time. I don't want it to. I understand that many people feel differently, and for the moment all I can do is be happy that the game's intrinsic design favors my approach.

The people who benefit from making D2 the only game they play? I play all the time with husbands, wives, parents, people with jobs with whack schedules, people in timezones that put them at all offpeak hours. People who have a dedicated night or two to do some gaming and make it count. People who want to play more and have plenty to do, but can't. All of the progression/grind aspects of D1 that are gone had a tangible effect of making players like this feel like they would get rapidly left behind. I'm not the least bit sad to see them go. For me, bringing them back would really just make the game worse.

Do these changes mean that there is less to occupy the hours of the hardcore day-in and day-out? Of course. But if you aren't having fun it doesn't matter either way. Take a moment to really ask yourself whether or not you are and you should know what to do.
 

TyrantII

Member
Some people have fun shooting. Others have fun in an excel type of environment where the thrill is seeing numbers and bars go up.

Destiny 2 has been tuned to suit players who enjoy shooting. The other crowd is like “why what’s the point I have everything and my numbers won’t go higher”. While the rest of us are like “well shooting stuff is fun so that’s why I do it”.

You can really please both crowds. They made a compromise they thought would cater to the larger of those two crowds. Let’s see how it plays out.


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CLBridges

Member
I don't understand why they didn't just do what Guild Wars does: Balance separately for PvP and PvE.

That's been something asked way at the beginning of D1. Bungie doesn't want to, it is what it is.

Funny thing is when I first played the alpha and getting familiar with the game I thought crucible weapons that were being sold were strictly for PvP. It made sense based on there being a vanguard vendor (pve) and crucible vendor (PvP). I think Destiny would be in a different place had they balanced separately, for the better imo.
 
Just want to throw in the perspective of a casual Destiny 2 player who plays a few nights a week. I can usually get my friends all together to play once a week, at most.

The game is very fun, and I enjoy that I don't have to do end game content to get to 305. Even so, I'm not going to get to 305 anytime soon--maybe never. Not sure I'll ever have the time or inclination to do the raid.

I like that things are simpler. I like the balance. I like the more open world. I even like Crucible. None of this top player, end-game stuff means anything to me. This stuff always reads like evidence that the writer should move on and play different games, because they've hit an enjoyment wall. That's fine. That's normal.

Every time I play now, I make a little progress. That feels good. If I do hit the cap, it won't really change my play behavior much--I'll just be ready for Nightfalls when my friends are.

And this is at its core the problem with Destiny 2. They created the game for the most absolute casual player and many are having a hard time dealing with that. The reality is until a real Destiny competitor appears (Anthem?) they can do whatever they want.
 
And this is at its core the problem with Destiny 2. They created the game for the most absolute casual player and many are having a hard time dealing with that. The reality is until a real Destiny competitor appears (Anthem?) they can do whatever they want.

The weirdest thing for me has always been how little they seem to care when it comes to taking inspiration from games that are out that already(and they clearly are taking inspiration from in other areas) can appeal to casuals and more hardcore players.
 

urge26

Member
For the life of me, I'm not sure why you thought that statistic helped your argument.

You can't compare the time you played a game over the course of three years to the time you've played a game that has been out for a month.

Okay, you feel like you hit a wall now. But I don't believe you if you tell me that you never felt that way during Destiny 1 at least once.

Seriously, if you drop down from the 196 hours you played in the first month to, let's say 50 hours per month on average over the next three years, you'll have the same playtime as Destiny 1.

Relax. It's okay to feel like you've hit a wall in a video game you played for nearly 200 hours in a single month. That's normal.

Wasn't an argument bro, it's the feelings of someone who loves the game and wants it to be as special as it used to be. You also don't need to come to the defense of Bungie against those that are flat out saying we want a reason to play everyday.
 

hank_tree

Member
Couldn't a lot of these complaints be addressed by making every activity as rewarding and engaging as public events? Most are still a blast even when they only drop blues -- tho injection rig needs to die in a ditch already

Public events as the new hotness shouldn't come as a huge surprise since Noseworthy hinted in a tweet that D2 public events were going to be significantly improved and a major design goal.

No. The issue isn’t that the activities aren’t rewarding.

The issue is that power level is basically meaningless so there’s no reason to do those activities past 280.
 
I've seen 3 really ignorant arguments made in this thread.

1. I don't want random rolls.

Random rolls don't have to be that random. There are a million ways to have variety in the gear that drops while simultaneously avoiding a horrible RNG based grind. Making each perk a mod slot or having perks become rerollable. Or the very system Slayerage outlines in the OP which it seems most people aren't even reading.

2. I can log in every week and make progress I don't want a crazy grind.

No one wants a crazy grind. No hardcore player is asking for a crazy grind. I just want a reason to play the game. Exotics are all garbage. Most weapons are the very definition of meh. What gear is there to look forward to?

3. These complaints only come from the hardcore Destiny elite with 500 characters and 1 billion hours played.

I'm mid 280 power level. I have 2 characters (it takes 4 hrs to hit 20 on a second character I did it within the span of 2 days listening to 2 podcasts). I really only play the game for Trials so I mostly just play on the weekends. Yet I and many others all have these issues. It's not just hardcore players who have these issues. I have been mid 280 for a while and have 0 reason to level up. Which means I have 0 reason to do any endgame activities.
 
He hit it on the head. The problem I’ve been facing with Destiny 2 is that they’ve built this amazing experience, but they cut it off at the end game. The reason I loved Destiny 1 so much was that they created this world that I wanted to go back to every night. I’d get on, see what my friends were doing, and work on making myself stronger and building that perfect arsenal so that we could tackle harder and harder challenges.

In Destiny 2, I’ve already hit a wall. I still want to be able to log on every night, live in this world, and play with my friends... but there’s nothing to do. We’ve hit 300+, we have all the weapons and armor we want, and there’s no incentive to do any of the end game content. So even when I do get on, nobody else is there. It’s really disappointing after all the fun we had with Destiny 1.
 
All I can hope for is that the bungie devs read forums like this and take the complaints to heart. Destiny 2 was supposed to be Destiny 1 but better, and yet somehow it's worse.
 

urge26

Member
He hit it on the head. The problem I’ve been facing with Destiny 2 is that they’ve built this amazing experience, but they cut it off at the end game. The reason I loved Destiny 1 so much was that they created this world that I wanted to go back to every night. I’d get on, see what my friends were doing, and work on making myself stronger and building that perfect arsenal so that we could tackle harder and harder challenges.

In Destiny 2, I’ve already hit a wall. I still want to be able to log on every night, live in this world, and play with my friends... but there’s nothing to do. We’ve hit 300+, we have all the weapons and armor we want, and there’s no incentive to do any of the end game content. So even when I do get on, nobody else is there. It’s really disappointing after all the fun we had with Destiny 1.

We all want a reason to logon. I find myself playing for tokens, to get shit gear. Doesn't matter that all my characters are 305. Fact is that the game is in a very very bad place, and people will drop like flies.
 

The1Ski

Member
Disagree with most of the arguments about the loot. The change to having set rolls was a massive improvement to the game and actually makes drops fun. So many times in Destiny 1 I would get a weapon that many had been raving about, only to have a bad set of rolls. It was more discouraging than anything. Felt like you were chasing the random perks more than the actual weapons.

...

.

That point goes both ways though. You could get a mid tier weapon with outstanding rolls and it could easily become a favorite and MORE FUN weapon that's actually viable.

Yes, getting the god roll of the best weapon in the game is not realistic for most players but effort should have rewards. And for casual players that luck out and receive such an item they've got something to tell their friends about and share with the community. There's literally zero posts on any forum titled "check out this roll on ...!" It's not an aspect of the game. What is there to talk about regarding loot in this game aside from boring perks?
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
All I can hope for is that the bungie devs read forums like this and take the complaints to heart. Destiny 2 was supposed to be Destiny 1 but better, and yet somehow it's worse.

Well, if they are reading this I'd like to say that it's absolutely better than the original at launch.
 
Well, if they are reading this I'd like to say that it's absolutely better than the original at launch.

Why wouldn't you talk about the state we left Destiny 1 in and moved to Destiny 2. Why would you just not even consider the four total expansions that they had that largely improved upon every aspect of the game?
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
There's a middle ground somewhere (that could keep causuals and the hardcore engaged) between (A) a cynical endgame that relies on manipulating player's OCD/FOMO and doesn't respect their time, and (B) a one-and-done approach.

That's all people seem to be advocating for.

Please stop reducing every mention of the potential benefits of RNG loot to meaning that players want a return to a "forever 29" situation again. Nobody is pining for meaningless grinds or artificial filler.

Please stop Vastly overstating how crucial so-called "god rolls" were to being able to enjoy D1 content to make the situation sound worse than it was in order to support their opposition to any reintroduction of hunting for an RNG drop. As someone who put 1000+ hours into D1, don't insult my intelligence by trying rewrite the past of D1's endgame(s).

What's odd is that other games and Destiny itself had solved some these problems but bizarrely Bungie completely discarded that. It's going to be odd if after all is said and done with this Activision deal, players will look back on The Taken King as peak Destiny. But it's starting to look that way to me. Will be interesting to see how the approach to DLC plays out.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Why wouldn't you talk about the state we left Destiny 1 in and moved to Destiny 2. Why would you just not even consider the four total expansions that they had that largely improved upon every aspect of the game?

I know, it's hilarious. "Hey, i'm okay with you ignoring all the improvements you made over 3 years. Thanks!"
 
I'm happy with it...I just don't have the time to grind like I did in D1, so this lets me concentrate on my other games while still letting me jump in when I want.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Why wouldn't you talk about the state we left Destiny 1 in and moved to Destiny 2. Why would you just not even consider the four total expansions that they had that largely improved upon every aspect of the game?

Because the biggest complaints are that vanilla Destiny in its first four months was better than Destiny 2 now.

That's crazy talk, of course. But yes, the overall system of Destiny 1 was better than Destiny 2 by the time it finished. Most of my issues stem from stuff like that.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
I'm happy with it...I just don't have the time to grind like I did in D1, so this lets me concentrate on my other games while still letting me jump in when I want.

If you are putting in 30+ hours per week into Destiny, then you have more than enough time to "grind" like people did unnecessarily in Destiny 1.
 

TyrantII

Member
Please stop reducing every mention of the potential benefits of RNG loot to meaning that players want a return to a "forever 29" situation again. Nobody is pining for meaningless grinds or artificial filler.

14 weeks running VOG here for a pair of boots.

Yup, never want that back. But I do want some sort of end game gameplay loops to play around with. Destiny always claimed to being your guardian / progression with you. Hell, the game encoded a "look what you did in destiny 1, memories!".

The problem with Destiny 2 is there won't be memories like that because of the lack of gameplay meaningful loops past the end game that keep people invested. They don't need a super grindy end game again, but they do need something rewarding besides clearing thrall running g out of a cave.

PvP at least have competition as a gameplay loop. PvE players? Nothing. No clan projects. No weapons systems to play with. Nothing to hunt down. Not awesome customizations. Just shoot things isn't enough for a game that claims and puts such an emphasis to personalize your character and gear so much.
 
The real issue is a lack of endgame content. Same issue with Destiny 1. Have fun buying 4 more expansions before you have a full game. I'm sitting this one out.
 

SomTervo

Member
The main complaint here is that D2 is an incredible game with some slight errors that prevent it from being the BEST game (only slightly kidding). If you are sleeping on it then it's your loss.
Actually D2 was built for people like you, not the fans, so if anything you should check it out.

Actually you should be hyped. It seems that Destiny 1 fans, hate 2. But look at me. I hated 1 but I love 2.

Soon after posting I actually scrolled down and saw some feedback that suggested this was the case.

Either way, I'm not taking the risk until prices drop. For me it's a big risk. Destiny is my most regretted purchase of all time. (Not joking.)
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
So wait, there's no point to doing Raids now? You can max out from loot earned from anywhere?

Right. There's no point to doing the raids other than to get the raid weapons themselves. Of course, you also get free raid gear if someone from your clan beats the raid. So, I guess, you don't even need to do the raid for gear. It's just sent to you. :)
 

Swhalen

Member
Pretty spot on.
Since sniper rifles are now heavy weapons why can’t we get a super powerful sniper like Icebreaker back ? Borealis is cool, DARCI is useless ...
 

Kane1345

Member
Good read. I was going to pick this up on PC at launch but I think I'll sit this one out till it's sold with the base game and expansions (if things improve of course)
 

urge26

Member
Soon after posting I actually scrolled down and saw some feedback that suggested this was the case.

Either way, I'm not taking the risk until prices drop. For me it's a big risk. Destiny is my most regretted purchase of all time. (Not joking.)

Destiny is my greatest purchase of all time (not joking). Hence my disappointment with the fact Bungie ignored 2 years of improvements to make something "better than vanilla". Tired of the defense force, and I'm about as big a fan boy as they get after pouring money into art books, guides, funko, macfarlane, special editions, multiple platforms, systems, and mega bloks. Bungie made: a better campaign, story a really enjoyed. A better Nightfall, and better clan integration. Everything else, garbage tier. I'm not going to go to bat and I certainly hope they're reading this.
 

ocean

Banned
The ๖ۜBronx;251588753 said:
It's not that, it's "what's the point of the number going higher past 280?".

It's literally the opposite of what you're reading it as. People see their power level go up, and then nothing happens. You don't get stronger as you can't be over-levelled in Destiny, you don't unlock any significant new experience past 280, you've been able to use all of the guns and armour you've got since half your level ago. What's the point in the level?

People aren't wanting the numbers to keep going up, they're wondering why they keep going up at all. There's no reason to go from 280 to 305 other than a more time limited version of what you've run already that gives you a light above your head, or a reworked version of the raid that could literally be made as hard at 280 by just increasing the enemy damage and health.
Same as it’s ever been. Even in D1 with the terrible grind to 30, once you hit 30 you’d take as many shots to kill a Level 30 Goblin in VoG as it’d take to kill a level 8 one in Patrol.

Number chasers have always wanted Destiny to be something it’s not, for better or worse. If you can log on and have fun by shooting stuff then the game is fun. Otherwise it can only ever be fun for a few weeks or days a year when the number game is relevant.

I still play D1 a ton despite there being no “rewards” I don’t have - because the shooting is fun. I can see how it’s not like that for some people but hey, it is what it is.
 

george_us

Member
Being able to stop playing the game isn't a bad thing.

You play until you are satisfied and then come back when new content is released.
This. It's not like this is a subscription based MMO where you're trying to get the most out of your monthly fee. Personally I play for a couple of hours a week maybe to get the powerful gear and check out what Xur has. That fact that I feel like I don't have to play hours upon hours a week is a great thing imo.
 
The real issue is a lack of endgame content. Same issue with Destiny 1. Have fun buying 4 more expansions before you have a full game. I'm sitting this one out.

Other real issues:

Egregious asset re-use/content recycling. There are precious few new enemy types.

No new subclasses.

Shallow, overall uncreative/bland loot pool. Many legendaries are re-used assets from D1. Many armor sets are unappealing. Uniquely designed weapons are too few in number. There should be 3x the loot that there is, and it should all look unique.
 

Mezoly

Member
I think the pace of progression and loot drop is really good with D2. The problem is people are running out of loot and content because of this pace. God rolls are filler content, I know people has said there could be a better solution for random rolls, but the majority I've seen want them completely back to pad the game.
 

vin-buc

Member
I get the whole power level argument. I was playing trials this weekend (which no longer has power level advantage) and the guys I was playing with were like "you're still 280-something" (even though I can hit up to 295) and it didn't phase me at all. Nothing I do in Destiny 2 needs me to be at the cap nor do i see the need to get to it.

I do like the idea of reforging something to be "my" weapon. That's a pretty cool idea. The only thing is that "my" weapon will be dictated by whatever the twitch/youtube community says are the rolls to have. I care more the PvP side of things.

1 mod per armor piece is kinda bum too. I wish they'd rework armor in a significant way. I also wish they'd let you see your whole setup with different shaders for different pieces.
 
The loot system is pretty bad, but random rolls didn't make things that much better. The fact is, we need more interesting loot properties. Exotics are the only interesting loot there is. Everything else, specifically armor, is boring as all hell. Mobility/Resilience/Recovery feels like the most pointless thing ever to me, and armor mods are passive and not very noticeable.
 
I don't want more RNG I just want more loot and specific ways to get them.

I don't want to grind a certain strike because my Uriel's Gift isn't dropping with the right perks.

I'm really enjoying Destiny 2 and it works great for my lifestyle now versus when I was a senior in college with a job offer before I even got back on campus. Lol of course I can stay up until 4AM grinding strikes and raids back then. Now, not so much. Destiny 2 change is timely for me but for my Destiny 1 friends I would imagine it feels rough to lose the chase/grind.
 

sinkfla87

Member
Some of my friends are already pretty much dropping the game too and that's a bummer, but I can't say I blame them. I agree with a majority of what Slayerage says but clearly this isn't the opinion of the entire Destiny playerbase. Destiny 2 definitely improved upon Destiny 1 (at launch) but I think people are forgetting how much even the fans were disappointed with the content and the way certain things were handled in D1 originally, and that D1 launch isn't exactly the hardest bar to raise when the foundation has already been set in stone.

D1 only became greater with every expansion so I expect and hope for that to happen as well but there are some key changes that dull the replayability that may get in the way of achieving that.

Also, Bungie's biggest issue right now is the lack of communication they have with their userbase. They can cherry pick the "toxic" posts on Reddit and pretend all complaints are as such and ignore them, but they responded pretty quickly and adored the ever cringey SnackDad meme.
 

kiguel182

Member
Right. There's no point to doing the raids other than to get the raid weapons themselves. Of course, you also get free raid gear if someone from your clan beats the raid. So, I guess, you don't even need to do the raid for gear. It's just sent to you. :)

You can also play the raid to enjoy the experience... like you can for every part of the game.
 

sinkfla87

Member
You can also play the raid to enjoy the experience... like you can for every part of the game.

I think the Leviathan is a fun experience. Have done it twice so far but given core changes to the Destiny 2 loot system I don't see ever completing it as much as the Vault of Glass.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Wasn't the original Destiny also kinda bad its first year? I remember it wasn't until The Taken King expansion until it really hit its groove.

Destiny 2 is a month old. The PC version isn't out for another 2 weeks. I'm sure Bungie will listen to feedback and improve the game over time.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
The problem with destiny is that there isnt enough content, I mean like why are there only 6 strikes?

There is really only 1 strike per week (Nightfall).
Otherwise, Strikes may as well be removed from the game entirely. At least the the first game mixed them in as part of the progression. Destiny 2 though, they are literally pointless.
 
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