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[Bucca]

The ones screaming transphobia are the ones not understanding biology and sports, not the ones going against the Olympic committee because a cis man played tennis against a woman once.

Repeat with me : CIS MEN AND TRANS WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.

There is a thing called hormone therapy. It is like opposite dopping. Trans women usually have LOWER than average testosterone levels. Also sports players are the ones at the top of what average is.

If you people think because she had a male puberty she still has advantages than I guess cis women should start taking dopping at that age because every single dopping test is only for a few months

This isn't just about test levels. Bone density, power output, muscle fiber activation/recruitment, etc. Men have biological/genetic advantages in strength and power output. Point. Blank. A woman will not be able to match a man when it comes to these things. Especially if they don't start hormone therapy before puberty hits (Male or Female).

Of course, there will always be outliers in populations, but the fact still remains.

It. Is. Not. Just. About. Testosterone.

 

[CebollaDeAbbott]

If that's their view they need to present a defined, reasonable standard for transgender athletes to meet. Or, if their view is to never allow transgender women to compete, they need to be public and upfront about their exclusion and change their name to a better fitting one.

I agree.

 

[Adam Sadler]

The ones screaming transphobia are the ones not understanding biology and sports, not the ones going against the Olympic committee because a cis man played tennis against a woman once.

Repeat with me : CIS MEN AND TRANS WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.

There is a thing called hormone therapy. It is like opposite dopping. Trans women usually have LOWER than average testosterone levels. Also sports players are the ones at the top of what average is.

If you people think because she had a male puberty she still has advantages than I guess cis women should start taking dopping at that age because every single dopping test is only for a few months

No one in this thread is acting like CIS Men are the same as Trans Women. There’s been multiple people who have even acknowledged that a trans women would be at a disadvantage playing with cis men as well. This situation isn’t as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be. Stop it and read some of the posts going into more detail about this.

 

[Zoe]

She's reportedly well below that standard. By a few factors, according to some articles, not as though she got 0.1 nmol/L below and called it good.

It would help if you posted your sources

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Honestly, there isn't really enough data either way. I say let her compete for a season, and if she then ends up completely dominating as expected then you have your empirical evidence for the rules. If not, well, then there is no issue. That season will probably suck for the other players but this is a growing period sort of situation where the lack of strong precedent means a decision needs to first be made BEFORE you can actually focus on making an official policy.

 

[cartographer]

It would help if you posted your sources

Those same guidelines do outline that in order to determine eligibility for competition, a transwoman “must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition”. According to reports, however, Mouncey’s latest reading was well below these guidelines, and could be as much as 20 times higher before approaching the recommended limit.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...denying-transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey

 

[CebollaDeAbbott]

Honestly, there isn't really enough data either way. I say let her compete for a season, and if she then ends up completely dominating as expected then you have your empirical evidence for the rules. If not, well, then there is no issue. That season will probably suck for the other players but this is a growing period sort of situation where the lack of strong precedent means a decision needs to first be made BEFORE you can actually focus on making an official policy.

This isn't the only issue.

Aussie Rules is a very physical sport. Very very tackle heavy. It's also completely legal to perform maneuvers such as this.

Now this rarely happens in AFLW (at the moment) But the point is, it can happen. This is a dangerous sport. If there is a serious question as to the safety of the other athletes, I feel it is better to err on the side of caution. At least until there is more evidence.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

This isn't the only issue.

Aussie Rules is a very physical sport. Very very tackle heavy. It's also completely legal to perform maneuvers such as this.

Now this rarely if ever happens in AFLW (so far.) But the point is, this is a dangerous sport. If there is a serious question as to the safety of the other athletes, I feel it is better to err on the side of caution. At least until there is more evidence.

I mean, that's the empirical evidence. Obviously if her first tackle results in her piledriving another player into the emergency room then take her out of the game. Like I said, it's gonna suck for somebody no matter how it plays out so it's best to just put the cards on the table so we can get around to making real decisions based on more than just theory. I feel for anyone whose on the receiving end of a bad hit but that's kind of the nature of the game; if you are gonna play you have to be prepared to get hurt.

Edit: I mean, outside of your occasional superstar outliers there has to be some sort of average performance level, stat-wise right? So if after a few games her performance is tracking above average, more so than it was in the men's league, then that could be corroborating evidence as well rather than just physicality.

 

[Adam Sadler]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...denying-transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey

Huh interesting..

 

[Ketkat]

This isn't just about test levels. Bone density, power output, muscle fiber activation/recruitment, etc. Men have biological/genetic advantages in strength and power output. Point. Blank. A woman will not be able to match a man when it comes to these things. Especially if they don't start hormone therapy before puberty hits (Male or Female).

Of course, there will always be outliers in populations, but the fact still remains.

It. Is. Not. Just. About. Testosterone.

First of all, can you stop calling transwomen men? Secondly, can you provide some proof that power output and muscles don't somehow change on HRT, and that those levels of strength aren't within the cis women playing this sport?

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I'm all for trans rights and whatnot but this is the area where it gets tricky. The world's strongest woman doesn't lift/run/punch as much as the world's strongest man. This is not me being a hater, this is just a statistic. Letting a trans woman compete with other ciswomen is a ver complicated topic that I honestly don't have an answer for.

 

[dawgparty]

I was for some reason just thinking about this sort of issue yesterday. I don't really know this would be fixed but it seems super complex.

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

This is obtuse as hell.

 

[Ketkat]

I was for some reason just thinking about this sort of issue yesterday. I don't really know this would be fixed but it seems super complex.


This is obtuse as hell.

Its actually not complex. There are a set of factors that can be looked at and seen if its okay or not. Which is why there are standards that let transwomen compete with ciswomen. All the people who ignore the fact that competitions allow it and say "I don't think they should allow it because men are strong" really is coming from a place of ignorance at best, transphobia at worst.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Its actually not complex. There are a set of factors that can be looked at and seen if its okay or not. Which is why there are standards that let transwomen compete with ciswomen. All the people who ignore the fact that competitions allow it and say "I don't think they should allow it because men are strong" really is coming from a place of ignorance at best, transphobia at worst.

It really is complex. We're 6 pages in and there's no clear answer. Care to enumerate said "set of factors" that could be looked into and how it wouldn't resort in still discriminating trans women? Because there's a difference between a trans women that's been taking hormones since she was 13 vs 25 year old who just started.

It's very complicated.

 

[Bucca]

First of all, can you stop calling transwomen men? Secondly, can you provide some proof that power output and muscles don't somehow change on HRT, and that those levels of strength aren't within the cis women playing this sport?

Where did I do that? I was speaking about Male or Females as a whole, I wasn't referring to the woman in the OP directly. I also referred to her correctly in my first post.

The current research suggests that HRT will change power output TO A DEGREE, albeit there is simply not enough research to firmly cement how much it does or how drastic/insignificant the changes are. And especially so if the HRT is started pre-, intra-, or post-puberty. Due to this, conventional and proven research is still the fallback. This is how it works in the sports/exercise science field.

This is and will continue to be a very complex and difficult matter to deal with until significantly more research is done.

Source: My degree.

 

[GeordieMark]

Its actually not complex. There are a set of factors that can be looked at and seen if its okay or not. Which is why there are standards that let transwomen compete with ciswomen. All the people who ignore the fact that competitions allow it and say "I don't think they should allow it because men are strong" really is coming from a place of ignorance at best, transphobia at worst.

It totally depends on the sport though. The IOC standard is very wide which is potentially a problem. There can't be one set of rules, as the implications vary massively depending on whether we are talking about a foot race or boxing match.

It is complex, and the people studying the subject acknowledge that. Trying to make out it is a simple matter is misleading and wrong.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

It sounds like the league set out guidelines for trans women based on the Olympic committee's guidelines. She met those guidelines and was denied by the league anyways at the last minute. That's a pretty big kick in the teeth.

 

[Ketkat]

It really is complex. We're 6 pages in and there's no clear answer. Care to enumerate said "set of factors" that could be looked into and how it wouldn't resort in still discriminating trans women? Because there's a difference between a trans women that's been taking hormones since she was 13 vs 25 year old who just started.

It's very complicated.

Explain to me what the differences are between those 2. And how they matter in the context of sports. Because you talk about how you don't know what the set of factors could be, yet you somehow think there's some distinct difference between the two that matters in this situation.

Where did I do that? I was speaking about Male or Females as a whole, I wasn't referring to the woman in the OP directly. I also referred to her correctly in my first post.

The current research suggests that HRT will change power output, albeit there is simply not enough research to firmly cement this. And especially so if the HRT is start pre-, intra-, or post-puberty. Due to this, conventional and proven research is still the fallback. This is how it works in the sports/exercise science field.

Source: My degree.

Your degree isn't a source. Give me the actual papers. As for when you did that, when you talk explicitly about how men have advantages over women in a thread about transwomen, you know what you were doing.

It totally depends on the sport though. The IOC standard is very wide which is potentially a problem. There can't be one set of rules, as the implications vary massively depending on whether we are talking about a foot race or boxing match.

It is complex, and the people studying the subject acknowledge that. Trying to make out it is a simple matter is misleading and wrong.

Explain to me the difference in advantages that transwomen have in foot races over boxing matches then. These have to be advantages that fall outside of ciswomen ranges as well.

 

[Bucca]

Your degree isn't a source. Give me the actual papers. As for when you did that, when you talk explicitly about how men have advantages over women in a thread about transwomen, you know what you were doing.
.

Okay, how about this: Biologically-born males, especially those who enter/finish puberty, will damn near always have power output/strength that trumps biologically-born women who enter/finish puberty.

Don't accuse me of "knowing what I was doing". I fully support transmen/women in just about every way.

When it comes to sports, especially those of physical contact nature, this is and ALWAYS will be an extremely difficult and complicated matter to deal with UNTIL progression is made in the scientific research.

 

[Ketkat]

Okay, how about this: Biologically-born males, especially those who enter/finish puberty, will damn near always have power output/strength that trumps biologically-born women who enter/finish puberty.

Don't accuse me of "knowing what I was doing". I fully support transmen/women in just about every way.

When it comes to sports, especially those of physical contact nature, this is and ALWAYS will be an extremely difficult and complicated matter to deal with until progression is made in the scientific research.

Why are you talking about males vs females again? How is that relevant to the conversation? Why are you not talking about transwomen vs ciswomen? Why are you not talking about the effects of HRT since that's what is relevant in this situation? Where are these papers that let you speak on such authority that transwomen shouldn't be allowed to compete? And you can say you support us all you want, but I see you very clearly.

 

[Bucca]

Why are you talking about males vs females again? How is that relevant to the conversation? Why are you not talking about transwomen vs ciswomen? Why are you not talking about the effects of HRT since that's what is relevant in this situation? Where are these papers that let you speak on such authority that transwomen shouldn't be allowed to compete? And you can say you support us all you want, but I see you very clearly.

Maybe adjust your shit passive-aggressive tone and stop assuming you think I have a problem with transmen/women?

I'm speaking in terms of male and female because this is how we speak of it in the sports/exercise science field. I'm not using these terms to OFFEND or because I think trans isn't a thing or whatever the fuck you'd like to make up in your mind about me to prove some point.

As I've said, HRT effects (especially long-term) in regards to transitioning athletes is simply not researched enough to come to any sort of concrete conclusion. I never once claimed to be an authority on who transwomen should be able to compete with.

 

[Zoe]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...denying-transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey

Cited article is behind a paywall

 

[MrToughPants]

First of all, can you stop calling transwomen men? Secondly, can you provide some proof that power output and muscles don't somehow change on HRT, and that those levels of strength aren't within the cis women playing this sport?

Here

Memory is a process in which information is encoded, stored, and retrieved. For vertebrates, the modern view has been that it occurs only in the brain. This review describes a cellular memory in skeletal muscle in which hypertrophy is 'remembered' such that a fibre that has previously been large, but subsequently lost its mass, can regain mass faster than naive fibres. A new cell biological model based on the literature, with the most reliable methods for identifying myonuclei, can explain this phenomenon. According to this model, previously untrained fibres recruit myonuclei from activated satellite cells before hypertrophic growth. Even if subsequently subjected to grave atrophy, the higher number of myonuclei is retained, and the myonuclei seem to be protected against the elevated apoptotic activity observed in atrophying muscle tissue. Fibres that have acquired a higher number of myonuclei grow faster when subjected to overload exercise, thus the nuclei represent a functionally important 'memory' of previous strength. This memory might be very long lasting in humans, as myonuclei are stable for at least 15 years and might even be permanent. However, myonuclei are harder to recruit in the elderly, and if the long-lasting muscle memory also exists in humans, one should consider early strength training as a public health advice. In addition, myonuclei are recruited during steroid use and encode a muscle memory, at least in rodents. Thus, extending the exclusion time for doping offenders should be considered.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26792335

 

[Pandaman]

If you people think because she had a male puberty she still has advantages than I guess cis women should start taking dopping at that age because every single dopping test is only for a few months

Yeah, if cis women want to compete they should just ruin their lives and their bodies from a young age, clearly that's a viable solution to this problem and not completely asinine.

 

[Ketkat]

Maybe adjust your shit passive-aggressive tone and stop assuming you think I have a problem with transmen/women?

I'm speaking in terms of male and female because this is how we speak of it in the sports/exercise science field. I'm not using these terms to OFFEND or because I think trans isn't a thing or whatever the fuck you'd like to make up in your mind about me to prove some point.

As I've said, HRT effects (especially long-term) in regards to transitioning athletes is simply not researched enough to come to any sort of concrete conclusion. I never once claimed to be an authority on who transwomen should be able to compete with.

You don't claim to be an authority? You said your source was YOUR degree. As in, we should just take your word for it no matter what anything else says. It doesn't matter what a single person with a degree says. What matters is what the papers and the research say. If you think that there isn't enough evidence either way, that's fine. But you don't get to sit here and talk about "Biological men always have the advantage in these three ways because that's what my degree says" and then pretend you weren't the one saying it.

You even said "This isn't just about testosterone" acting like you know that HRT doesn't work in some way for atheletes. You posted these things in response to someone talking about HRT and its effects. If you don't think there's enough evidence, say that. Don't start talking about how men are better when someone is talking about transwomen and not expect me to call you out on your bullshit.

 

[DSN2K]

Your degree isn't a source.

It's not but it gives him far more credibility on the subject then you.

To be honest I think your barking up the wrong tree here looking to argue with people who have generally tried to look at it constructively. Chill maybe and take some knowledge on board so you can argue your case better next time instead of lashing out accusing people of being transphobic at first turn.

 

[Maxim726X]

Its actually not complex. There are a set of factors that can be looked at and seen if its okay or not. Which is why there are standards that let transwomen compete with ciswomen. All the people who ignore the fact that competitions allow it and say "I don't think they should allow it because men are strong" really is coming from a place of ignorance at best, transphobia at worst.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/JBMR.041005/pdf

Just from a quick Google search.

HRT would certainly help even the playing field, but there are still innate physiological differences that would give males the advantage.

 

[cartographer]

Cited article is behind a paywall

Under IOC regulations adopted by the AFL an athlete must prove her testosterone level is below 10 nanomoles/litre, and Mouncey's measurement is 0.5 nanomoles/litre.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...a/news-story/a67db1032bdf7aace62cc6df75266ca7

edit: If that loads a paywall for you, access it via Google. I didn't get a paywall that way.

 

[Ketkat]

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/see-the-skeletal-differences-between-women-and-men

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/JBMR.041005/pdf

Just from a quick Google search.

HRT would certainly help even the playing field, but there are still innate physiological differences that would give males the advantage.

Once again. If these don't have anything to do with HRT, I don't know how you can make an authoritative statement on whether transwomen should compete or not. Stop looking at studies entirely about cis men and thinking they apply to transwomen in sports.

It's not but it gives him far more credibility on the subject then you.

To be honest I think your barking up the wrong tree here looking to argue with people who have generally tried to look at it constructively. Chill maybe and take some knowledge on board so you can argue your case better next time instead of lashing out accusing people of being transphobic at first turn.

I don't see how it gives him more credibility than me when he can't do anything to cite any of his claims. I know a lot more about HRT than this guy very clearly. Seeing as I've had to actually talk to doctors about it and gone through it myself.

 

[Bucca]

You don't claim to be an authority? You said your source was YOUR degree. As in, we should just take your word for it no matter what anything else says. It doesn't matter what a single person with a degree says. What matters is what the papers and the research say. If you think that there isn't enough evidence either way, that's fine. But you don't get to sit here and talk about "Biological men always have the advantage in these three ways because that's what my degree says" and then pretend you weren't the one saying it.

You even said "This isn't just about testosterone" acting like you know that HRT doesn't work in some way for atheletes. You posted these things in response to someone talking about HRT and its effects. If you don't think there's enough evidence, say that. Don't start talking about how men are better when someone is talking about transwomen and not expect me to call you out on your bullshit.

The "Source: My degree" was meant to portray that I am related to this field of study and have knowledge in some ways relating to this subject, not that I am an end-all-be-all authority on the matter.

It is important to consider that an M->F transitioned athlete was, at one point, biologically a male though. The fact of that can't just be thrown out because of HRT and test levels. There are other factors to consider.

 

[Ketkat]

The "Source: My degree" was meant to portray that I am related to this field of study and have knowledge in some ways relating to this subject, not that I am an end-all-be-all authority on the matter.

It is important to consider that an M->F transitioned athlete was, at one point, biologically a male though. The fact of that can't just be thrown out because of HRT and test levels.

And why's that? What does your degree have to do with HRT? Something that is related to endocrinology? How can you speak authoritatively on the subject of it when you say that your field hasn't done any studies on it.

 

[Maxim726X]

Once again. If these don't have anything to do with HRT, I don't know how you can make an authoritative statement on whether transwomen should compete or not. Stop looking at studies entirely about cis men and thinking they apply to transwomen in sports.

Compare female bodybuilders and male bodybuilders, then. They're both loaded to the gills with steroids and TRT, but the underlying physiological differences don't go away because they're loaded with testosterone.

I find it hysterical that you're calling other people ignorant and claiming they're transphobic when you've come up with nothing to back up your argument.

 

[Bucca]

And why's that? What does your degree have to do with HRT? Something that is related to endocrinology? How can you speak authoritatively on the subject of it when you say that your field hasn't done any studies on it.

Sports/exercise science is a field that encompasses this exact issue. Endocrinology goes hand in hand with sports performance and physiology/kinesiology.

Our field has done studies in it, but like I've said many times, there hasn't been ENOUGH studies or hard-proof, both in my field and more specific fields, to change the "rules of engagement" at large when it comes to this matter.

 

[Ketkat]

Compare female bodybuilders and male bodybuilders, then. They're both loaded to the gills with steroids and TRT, but the underlying physiological differences don't go away because they're loaded with testosterone.

I find it hysterical that you're calling other people ignorant and claiming they're transphobic when you've come up with nothing to back up your argument.

I've asked people to explain what they thought was the case with the problems they had. They gave nothing concrete showing that they have no idea what they're talking about yet they feel that they know what's best for competitions. Comparing female bodybuilders and male bodybuilders, assuming both are on testosterone, doesn't apply to this situation either. MtF and FtM go through very different changes, and its important to realize that studying one side doesn't show you hardly anything about the other.

Sports/exercise science is a encompasses this exact issue. Endocrinology goes hand in hand with sports performance and physiology/kinesiology.

Our field has done studies in it, but like I've said many times, there hasn't been ENOUGH studies or hard-proof, both in my field and more specific fields, to change the "rules of engagement" at large when it comes to this matter.

Then link to these studies that support you. Because the way I see it, large competitions are allowing transwomen to compete with ciswomen. Why do you think they would do that if most people have issues with trans people? Is it because they felt like there was no conclusive evidence one way or the other and they should just wing it and take the backlash?

 

[MisterR]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

She's way bigger and stronger than the other athletes, it could very well lead to severe injuries for the other women.

 

[appaws]

I think she should be allowed to compete. People are born with genetic advantage for athletics all the time. No matter how much certain people train, they will never have the genetics to be as good as some of the top athletes.

This would be the de facto abolition of women's sports.

 

[flkraven]

Dick move that they waited until the last minute to tell her. I personally don't disagree with their decision ultimately, but I think they could have been far more respectful and gave ample notice.

Sports are inherently discriminatory. Nearly every sport discriminates based on gender. Combat sports discriminate based on weight. This is done in an effort to create some semblance of a fair playing field, and is typically done for the good of 'weaker' party. For example, women are able to play in the NBA, NHL etc but almost never do because, so far, they haven't been good enough to crack the lineup. So we have women's hockey or the WNBA, where men are not allowed to play. If gender had no bearing on athletic talent in these sports, we wouldn't need separate leagues.

So in the situation of a transgender person, they really can't change how their physiology developed as they were younger. They have every right to identify as any gender they wish, however it is nearly impossibly to measure how being born a different gender impacts their abilities. In this incredibly complicated issue, I understand why they would want to keep a trans woman out of a women's only league.

 

[Bucca]

Then link to these studies that support you. Because the way I see it, large competitions are allowing transwomen to compete with ciswomen. Why do you think they would do that if most people have issues with trans people? Is it because they felt like there was no conclusive evidence one way or the other and they should just wing it and take the backlash?

At the end of the day, competitions are governed by rules that are set by their prospective organizations. An organization can be as inclusive or exclusive as much as they'd like based off whatever parameters they deem worthy or necessary.

Whether they feel the evidence is conclusive enough to warrant banning or not banning is by and large the opinion of the organization's rule setters, despite what the scientific evidence at the time may or may not show.

 

[Ketkat]

At the end of the day, competitions are governed by rules that are set by their prospective organizations. An organization can be as inclusive or exclusive as much as they'd like based off whatever parameters they deem worthy or necessary.

Whether they feel the evidence is conclusive enough to warrant banning or not banning is by and large the opinion of the organization's rule setters, despite what the scientific evidence at the time may or may not show.

So, what you're saying is. You don't know anything about the situation and the way it affects transwomen. Yet somehow you still feel the need to come in here and talk about how we shouldn't be competing?

If you don't know anything, and there's not any studies you can point to. Explain what you meant by this.

It. Is. Not. Just. About. Testosterone.

That seems to imply that you know something about HRT and how it affects the competition. And seeing as you've consistently been talking about how men have advantages over women, just say what you've been avoiding this whole time about trans people and HRT.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I've asked people to explain what they thought was the case with the problems they had. They gave nothing concrete showing that they have no idea what they're talking about yet they feel that they know what's best for competitions. Comparing female bodybuilders and male bodybuilders, assuming both are on testosterone, doesn't apply to this situation either. MtF and FtM go through very different changes, and its important to realize that studying one side doesn't show you hardly anything about the other.



Then link to these studies that support you. Because the way I see it, large competitions are allowing transwomen to compete with ciswomen. Why do you think they would do that if most people have issues with trans people? Is it because they felt like there was no conclusive evidence one way or the other and they should just wing it and take the backlash?

Can you link any studies that support your position with regard to HRT and sports performance? You keep asking for sources but I haven't seen you substantiate jack shit.

 

[Apocryphon]

She weighs the same as some heavyweight boxers and averages 15cms taller than the other female players? Does she actually have a physical advantage? And if so, does she have that advantage because she was born male?

If we accept that in the vast majority of sports, women wouldn’t be able to compete with men if the gender divide was scrapped and the answers to the questions above are yes then it’s pretty clear cut. If the answers are no then this will keep happening for years and will continue to be messy and unfair.

 

[Bucca]

So, what you're saying is. You don't know anything about the situation and the way it affects transwomen. Yet somehow you still feel the need to come in here and talk about how we shouldn't be competing?

If you don't know anything, and there's not any studies you can point to. Explain what you meant by this.


That seems to imply that you know something about HRT and how it affects the competition. And seeing as you've consistently been talking about how men have advantages over women, just say what you've been avoiding this whole time about trans people and HRT.

It isn't just about testosterone. Doubly so if the transman/woman has already been through puberty.

Muscle cells learn, they have memories. A transwoman who did resistance training for years prior to transitioning will still have those nerve cells innervating their muscles in very specific ways, and in the case of resistance training, how to output the most amount of power/force in the most efficient way possible. Cross-sectional area size of muscle will decrease over time with HRT, that's a fact. It happens even off HRT in cismen once they hit the age of about 30-35. But there hasn't been enough research to see how muscle innervation is affected by HRT and whether or not power output is decreased by enough of a significant amount.

If a case study were to be conducted for the long-term (decade+) effects of HRT in regards to trans athletes then we could possibly see a change in this way of thinking. That's how scientific research works. Something becomes the standard after enormous amounts of research and proof.

 

[darscot]

I have no issue with this, there is a physical difference between men and women. I feel the same thing about steroids, just because your clean the day of competition does not mean you should be allowed to compete, there is long term impact.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I have no issue with this, there is a physical difference between men and women. I feel the same thing about steroids, just because your clean the day of competition does not mean you should be allowed to compete, there is long term impact.

Except being trans isn't risk to your health like taking steroids is (which is the real reason they're banned)

 

[Ketkat]

Can you link any studies that support your position with regard to HRT and sports performance? You keep asking for sources but I haven't seen you substantiate jack shit.

I'm not the one making claims that certain people shouldn't be competing. A discussion doesn't work by someone spouting things out of their ass, and when pressed for a source, that person saying "Well, prove me wrong."

It isn't just about testosterone. Doubly so if the transman/woman has already been through puberty.

Muscle cells learn, they have memories. A transwoman who did resistance training for years prior to transitioning will still have those nerve cells innervating their muscles in very specific ways, and in the case of resistance training, how to output the most amount of power/force in the most efficient way possible.

And can you give some kind of proof that the level of muscle memory in transwomen isn't within range of ciswomen?

 

[flkraven]

Except being trans isn't risk to your health like taking steroids is (which is the real reason they're banned)

Are you implying that the only reason certain performance enhancing drugs are banned is because of health risks?

 

[darscot]

Except being trans isn't risk to your health like taking steroids is (which is the real reason they're banned)

Well that is completely false, there are plenty of positive medical uses for steroids. They are still banned because they provide an advantage. My son had to change acne medicine because it contained a steroid. Completely beneficial to his health and recommended by a Doctor. I should not say he changed medicine, the Doctor said this is the best one and we checked before he used it.

 

[SapientWolf]

First of all, can you stop calling transwomen men? Secondly, can you provide some proof that power output and muscles don't somehow change on HRT, and that those levels of strength aren't within the cis women playing this sport?

They do change:

Anti-androgens and estrogens induced a loss of total and regional muscle mass (-4 to -10% or – median 2kg) and muscle strength (-7.3%) (all p≤0.001) in transwomen. Furthermore total body fat (+25% or median +4kg) and subcutaneous fat mass (+32% at the calf, +58% at the forearm) increased and a lower waist-hip ratio was found (all p≤0.001).

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/endo-meetings.2013.RE.12.MON-591

It's not really enough to close the gap:

Biometric parameters included lean body mass (LBM) and hand dimensions. Mean maximal hand-grip strength showed the expected clear difference between men (541 N) and women (329 N). Less expected was the gender related distribution of hand-grip strength: 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303

On average, an untrained transgender woman would still be stronger than an elite level female athlete even with a 7% drop in strength after a year of hormone therapy.

 

[Rumblebones]

It's unfortunate for the player, but I think this is the right decision, and especially so when it comes to contact sports.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are you implying that the only reason certain performance enhancing drugs are banned is because of health risks?

I'd posit that's why it should be. but I'll admit that was too quick of a comment.

That said still doesn't make the comparison valid... because the only drugs trans women take are estrogen and testosterone blockers.... which are literally the exact opposite of performance enhancing.