Their bodies are full of testosterone naturally that other women would fail a drug test if they had anywhere near that level. You are very loose with your data.
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AFLW block transgender athlete, Hannah Mouncey, from 2018 draft
- Thread starter lush
- Start date
Their bodies are full of testosterone naturally that other women would fail a drug test if they had anywhere near that level. You are very loose with your data.
excelsiorlef
Member
To be fair that doesn't actually change my point. Which is that to me the underlying issue is that steroid abuse is disastrous on the human body.
I'd wager there'd be less likely rules against it if it wasn't but I could be wrong.
Still your comparison wasn't good as I outlined in my previous post.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
At the same time, there has been a lot of insightful discussion around the topic that you are ignoring with your litany of "source please" comments. Refusing to engage in conversation beyond source requests, especially when Google exists, doesnt make for a good conversation. Now that a source has been posted that details how 1 year of hormone therapy isn't enough to reverse decades of male growth and living, can you see how allowing a 6'2", 200lb woman built like a brick house may be unfair to the other women she would be competing with?
I feel like I've learned a lot in this thread.
In regards to transmen and transwomen competing in sports. I expect this will be an issue until the research being mentioned is advanced enough to give solid proof on general timelines on some of the things being questioned. Based on conversation, it seems its not quite there yet.
In regards to transmen and transwomen competing in sports. I expect this will be an issue until the research being mentioned is advanced enough to give solid proof on general timelines on some of the things being questioned. Based on conversation, it seems its not quite there yet.
People in this thread thinking that testosterone levels are the be all end all of physical ability.
Mouncey is biologically male, they have had the effects of male hormones in their body for over two decades.
Their bones are denser and stronger, their muscles are stronger and faster, they likely have a higher pain tolerance, reasonably faster reactions, hell even a more aggressive and determined psychological makeup.
That's in addition to being considerably taller and heavier than anyone else in the league.
Welcome to millions of years of evolution.
Inclusiveness is not the highest priority factor in sport.
Mouncey is biologically male, they have had the effects of male hormones in their body for over two decades.
Their bones are denser and stronger, their muscles are stronger and faster, they likely have a higher pain tolerance, reasonably faster reactions, hell even a more aggressive and determined psychological makeup.
That's in addition to being considerably taller and heavier than anyone else in the league.
Welcome to millions of years of evolution.
Inclusiveness is not the highest priority factor in sport.
excelsiorlef
Member
That's why the rules are in place about how long you have to be on HRT and what levels you have to be at before you can compete... Olympic rules even
My comparison was exactly accurate. My son could not use that medicine because it would give him an advantage over the competition. That medicine was completely beneficial to his health. There was alternatives available so we chose not to go through the hassle of trying to get an exemption.
Anabolic steroid use is only disastrous if done incorrectly. If you have a professional monitoring your cycles and input, you can come off and on as you please without any lasting detrimental effects.
The problem comes with it being abused by people without these professionals, and fucking up their cycles. Causing substantial damage to their liver, estrogen and T levels, among other things.
excelsiorlef
Member
Editing to be more polite:
She's a woman. The Op refers to as she... Why are you using they?
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
But this is by design. Gender restrictions in women's leagues is to protect their sport, because men would by and large clean house in such a league.
Just because that is the current rule does not make it exactly fair, I suspect things will change as this gets more and more exploited. I do not mean legitimate transgender people will exploit it. People will though and they will need to change it.
excelsiorlef
Member
You think a man is going to present as a woman and undergo HRT for years in order to compete.... and that's why trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete?
Pretty sure the poster was trying to not be offensive and messed up.
metalslimer
Member
This is a trickey question to deal with. Considering most biologically born males don't start producing testosterone in any signficant levels until puberty there really shouldn't be any rules against a trans player playing if they have blocked puberty. But I wouldn't want to be discriminatory and take the people who didn't have the opportunity to do that on a case by case basis because the rules are going to start getting real arbitrary. At the same time, they shouldn't just blanket ban people because it's easier.
Wat.
Wat.
You could give him the benefit of the doubt that he was referring to people in Hannah's position or you could start an off-topic semantics war.
Better get on the semantics.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Physically she is, and men have a physical advantage in general. It's not hard to understand, and doesn't have to be turned into a big controversy about transphobia.
boiled goose
good with gravy
It's a tough challenge. Do transgender individuals have to take a lot of hormonal supplements?
Also time of transition could have an effect on terminal biology.
The issue originates of course that we separate sports according to gender (which is not that neatly binary) and that it has a bias towards "naturally" occurring differences.
Of course naturally is in quotations because that's also hard to draw a line. Nutrition, training vs doping, etc
Don't be stupidly reductive. Different than a cis woman doesn't make it "a man".
Something that really surprised me was the gender gap in sports. Even in something mostly speed and skill based like soccer, the best professional female team in the world has a hard time competing with a decent to average male highschool team.
In something where strength and size is more important like boxing, wrestling, or even basketball.. it's probably worse.
It's a tough challenge of fairness vs inclusion
Also time of transition could have an effect on terminal biology.
The issue originates of course that we separate sports according to gender (which is not that neatly binary) and that it has a bias towards "naturally" occurring differences.
Of course naturally is in quotations because that's also hard to draw a line. Nutrition, training vs doping, etc
Don't be stupidly reductive. Different than a cis woman doesn't make it "a man".
Something that really surprised me was the gender gap in sports. Even in something mostly speed and skill based like soccer, the best professional female team in the world has a hard time competing with a decent to average male highschool team.
In something where strength and size is more important like boxing, wrestling, or even basketball.. it's probably worse.
It's a tough challenge of fairness vs inclusion
No I think the current rules are not ideal. I do not think that anyone that competed post puberty as a man should be be allowed to compete as a women. There is significant advantage to being a man. If you were never a man or never took up the sport as a man then I think it would be fair to compete as a women. By man, I mean physically post puberty male. Competing for years as a man then transitioning is an unfair advantage in my opinion.
excelsiorlef
Member
The poster was literally referring to Hannah...
Pronouns are not semantics for trans folk.
The best way to confront that is definitely to assume malicious intent. Friendly corrections are out of the picture. Good job helping to make this a toxic topic for people who most likely harbor no ill will.
excelsiorlef
Member
Her female pronoun was literally in a bold sentence of the OP
And those sentences are blatantly directly about Hannah... not all trans women athletes.
But anywho I edited it to be politer
For how many months/years has Hannah Mouncey's testosterone level constantly been at 0.5 nanomoles/litre?
Rumblebones
Banned
It's harsh but it's gotta be a numbers game.
If Mouncey is allowed to compete, that's unfair to all the women she competes against.
If she isn't allowed to compete, it's unfair to her, but not so for all the women she would have competed against.
The decision to block Mouncey from competing may seem harsh, but is the most logical.
At this stage of her life, it doesn't really matter what she takes. She cannot undo her biological advantages. She has the biology a male and that comes with superior bone structure and density and a whole host of other advantages that simply aren't fair to the women she competes against, or safe for that matter considering how gruelling the sport already is.
If Mouncey is allowed to compete, that's unfair to all the women she competes against.
If she isn't allowed to compete, it's unfair to her, but not so for all the women she would have competed against.
The decision to block Mouncey from competing may seem harsh, but is the most logical.
At this stage of her life, it doesn't really matter what she takes. She cannot undo her biological advantages. She has the biology a male and that comes with superior bone structure and density and a whole host of other advantages that simply aren't fair to the women she competes against, or safe for that matter considering how gruelling the sport already is.
Ah yes, insightful conversation like this?
The kind of post that had several people come out and say "Finally" and "This is so true" At least this poster wasn't trying to be subtle about it like some of you.
I'm a little confused on the terminlogy in the first one. "We present the data of Ghent gender team with 56 male-to-female (transwomen) of whom 36 have been in follow-up for 1 year of cross-sex hormonal therapy (CSH)." Mainly this part. Is this saying that 20 of them weren't transitioning?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Well, since it's not true... Probably.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
???
So men don't have an advantage?
She isn't a man anymore, but she very recently competed as a man. Am I taking crazy pills?
DeathbyCheerios
Member
Look at hockey for example
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olym...aging-against-high-school-170704740--oly.html
The top ranked womans national team struggled against high school hockey teams.
These are the best woman hockey players in the world and they are struggling against varsity teams, the players on the varsity teams often don't go too much further than that.
When it comes to most sports men genetically have an advantage. There is no sexism or misogyny there. Its a scientific fact.
If she transitioned at a young age and was going thru hormone therapy than I don't see too much of a problem. But she lived as a man for 26 years.
https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olym...aging-against-high-school-170704740--oly.html
The top ranked womans national team struggled against high school hockey teams.
These are the best woman hockey players in the world and they are struggling against varsity teams, the players on the varsity teams often don't go too much further than that.
When it comes to most sports men genetically have an advantage. There is no sexism or misogyny there. Its a scientific fact.
If she transitioned at a young age and was going thru hormone therapy than I don't see too much of a problem. But she lived as a man for 26 years.
Yeah, no idea where 'not true' is coming from.
Thank you.
I've just seen to many good, considerate people tore apart because they made a mistake. I'd rather people saved the offense and ill will for people who do it maliciously. By all means tear them a new one and I'll be right there with you.
excelsiorlef
Member
Still waiting for an explanation on why you called the difference between she and they semantics though because it isn't semantics. The difference between calling a trans woman she or a trans woman they (when their gender is clear as Hannah's is) is not semantics, it is quite the opposite.
This is so true anyone that has ever watched a kids hockey game. There is that one year that the odd teams have a kid that just does the whole puberty thing early and he just single handedly wins every game.
DeathbyCheerios
Member
Physical advantage isn't everything. There is small hockey players that do well but the skill level has to be much higher and they have been used to taking a beating their whole hockey lives.
I've seen lot's of arguments that male puberty made her have greater bone density in this thread. That argument being, even if her test is low the higher bone density alone gives her an unfair advantage and that alone should disqualify her.
What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?
What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?
robotzombie
Member
I've seen lot's of arguments that male puberty made her have greater bone density in this thread. That argument being, even if her test is low the higher bone density alone gives her an unfair advantage and that alone should disqualify her.
What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?
That it's one of a multitude of physiological/biological differences that are all working together to create the differences between sexes and not the single defining factor? That would be my guess
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
It's a complicated issue. Transwomen want to be seen as full women in every way. When something like this challenges that struggle, people get defensive. It is clearly absurd to suggest that Transwoman are not meaningfully biologically different than woman.
Transwoman have every right to be who they are in society, but this league's mission is to create a safe space for biological women to compete. Allowing a former male athlete to compete against them would violate the entire reason for the leagues existence.
I've seen lot's of arguments that male puberty made her have greater bone density in this thread. That argument being, even if her test is low the higher bone density alone gives her an unfair advantage and that alone should disqualify her.
What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?
Which sporting body separates competition on the basis of bone density alone??? It's combination of differing physiology that creates divisions of competition. It's the reason that there are different divisions in regards to age, sex, etc. The problem is the basis of separation of those divisions are very concrete while gender is extremely fluid. It's a very complex issue.
DeathbyCheerios
Member
Transitioning requires hormone therapy correct?
Would those same drugs be allowed in sports leagues normally or are they banned substances?
Ok. I'm sorry.
TechnicPuppet
Nothing! I said nothing!
This is the correct but difficult decision. Women in general get treated like shit. Their safe spaces need to be protected and in my opinions that unfortunately means to the exclusion of transwomen.
yes, because the biological advantage is not actually because of her gender
correlation not causation
women of all fitness exist
Yeah, I feel it is far more complicated than 'bone density' or 'testosterone'. All we have is a hundred years of evidence showing that in the big, popular sports, women are not as good as men and it's clearly due to their physiology. If it was just bone density and testosterone and they could keep up otherwise, we would see more women in roles like a goaltender in the NHL. It actually happened once. A woman played 1 game as a goalie in an NHL preseason game in the 90s.
Oh I know my son was a small skilled defenseman and that always got matched up with Goliath. You can shut him down but as the game goes on the man just wears you down and they double and triple shift him. It just takes so much more energy for the smaller player. Once every team has at a couple of those guys it all balances back out. When that big kid Ts one up and the Goalie parents are yelling for kids to get out of the way its pretty funny.
Juwanna Mann was a documentary.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
It's because of her sex though.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
He did the exact same thing the last trans thread he post in.
DeathbyCheerios
Member
Bingo.
A sex she lived and grew as for 26 years
eot
Banned
No one tried to give a proper rebuttal to this
RollingCheese
Banned
It absolutely blows my mind how so many fellow neogaf members haven't got a clue how muscle growth and biology works.
Let's take this example to break this down.
Let's take a male 6 feet tall and a female 6 feet tall starting out at the same weight of 170 lbs.
Put them in to a training chamber.
Assume they both have the exactly same routine, nutrition, exact same dedication and motivation, no steroids allowed of any sort, no protein powder, only organic steak and chicken breast.
After 1 month, the male will have substantial muscle growth or at the very least much more muscle growth and physical brawn compared to the female due to testosterone.
The female, while tone, will be nowhere near as ripped. This doesn't even take in to account biological differences between the two sexes, which includes bone density. Decades of misinformation and acceptance of fake science have really have a detrimental effect on biological knowledge and understanding in this society and it is freaking sad.
We do need to be more inclusive, but this is the wrong freaking battlefield.
MTF trans will absolutely wreck the competition if they didn't undergo full blown hormonal therapy for at least a few years, and even then their inherited physical powers of their previous sex will still be more than enough to crush any average female.
Let's take this example to break this down.
Let's take a male 6 feet tall and a female 6 feet tall starting out at the same weight of 170 lbs.
Put them in to a training chamber.
Assume they both have the exactly same routine, nutrition, exact same dedication and motivation, no steroids allowed of any sort, no protein powder, only organic steak and chicken breast.
After 1 month, the male will have substantial muscle growth or at the very least much more muscle growth and physical brawn compared to the female due to testosterone.
The female, while tone, will be nowhere near as ripped. This doesn't even take in to account biological differences between the two sexes, which includes bone density. Decades of misinformation and acceptance of fake science have really have a detrimental effect on biological knowledge and understanding in this society and it is freaking sad.
We do need to be more inclusive, but this is the wrong freaking battlefield.
MTF trans will absolutely wreck the competition if they didn't undergo full blown hormonal therapy for at least a few years, and even then their inherited physical powers of their previous sex will still be more than enough to crush any average female.
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