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[Flightmare]

I'm really sick and tired of people discussing "crappy" CPU when they don't know what they're talking about. Lemmings.

If you're not nintendo then you literally don't know what you're talking about

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I'm not sure about specifics or accuracy but here is a chart I found with some interesting numbers. Don't forget these numbers aren't just for the home consoles but for handhelds as well.

Source?

 

[nekomix]

Except that the 3DS is tracking ahead of the DS and has been from the very start and we've passed the point where the DS Lite was introduced. The rise of iOS and android isn't affecting their handheld business as people thought and assumed it would.

For hardware, yes, for software... There clearly is a problem about software sales on 3DS compared to DS games. That's where smartphones have made a big hit.

Concerning WiiU, it's a conflict between two philosophies for consoles : Nintendo's one (mastered, highly customized, hard-squeezing hardware with maximum efficiency and rentability for development/marketing) and the Western one (aimed towards state-of-the-art tech, huge budget and no so high rentability for development/marketing). Nintendo is struggling right now to cater their philosophy to HD development and it doesn't help for confidence of 3rd party partners, putting aside lackluster hardware and software sales for 3rd party games and tech support for 3rd party before the launch.

 

[roddur]

When nintendo makes their next mistake, then we move over to the next thread

i believe it'll be "anyone who shits on nintendo about anything nintendo does", then.

 

[StevieP]

If you're not nintendo then you literally don't know what you're talking about

I'm not Nintendo and I know it's not a "crappy CPU"

 

[H_Prestige]

I am by no means a 3ds sales expert but isn't the 3ds selling poorly in North America and Europe and software sales on the system there aren't as great?

Correct. Certain people just like to live in a bubble. There are a few who even think the wii u is selling great.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

If a developer has never made a game for your console then shouldn't you be trying to get them on board? Sony didn't give up on trying to give Valve on board for the PS3, even after Gabe ripped the console apart, and eventually they managed to convince them to support it.

But that would require competence and effort, something that can't be accomplished under Iwate/Reggie.

 

[D-e-f-]

I think you have a persecution complex lol. Making jokes is not trolling. Your reactions though are certainly going to bring out the trolls.

That post was a direct reference to someone making fun of an expression I used earlier in this thread without knowing the context. Besides, the trolls don't need to be brought out. They're already quite active.

 

[sp3000]

I'm not Nintendo and I know it's not a "crappy CPU"

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

 

[ascii42]

I'm really sick and tired of people discussing "crappy" CPU when they don't know what they're talking about. Lemmings.

Fair enough, I could have phrased that better. Edited.

 

[Flightmare]

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

DICE has been pretty clear on it as well

 

[theviolenthero]

this. Im suprised people are still in the dark with how well the 3ds is actually doing. That CNN article the other day made the same mistake.

For the first 5 months of this year the 3ds has a grand total of 10 retail 3rd party releases in the USA.

Fast & Furious: Showdown
Crash City Mayhem
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers
castlevania
mh3u
naruto
ethran 4
sonic racing
black bass 3d
croods



For the first 5 months of this year the Wii U has a grand total of 10 retail 3rd party releases in the USA.

re revelations
deus ex se (may have been delayed)
injustice
mh3
nfsmwu
croods
walking dead
amazing spiderman
Fast & Furious: Showdown
Sniper Elite V2

 

[NateDrake]

They have never made a game for a Nintendo system. So their trend continues

 

[Risette]

I am by no means a 3ds sales expert but isn't the 3ds selling poorly in North America and Europe and software sales on the system there aren't as great?

No, you're right. The 3DS has missed every sales projection Nintendo has set in regions outside of Japan.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I don't know if I can link the source here or not. Here's a decent breakdown of the tech. Better examples can be found within NeoGAF in the appropriate Wii U threads. Still, I hope this helps outline things in a simplified manner.

The Xbox 360 uses a 3.2Ghz Tri-core, multi-threaded CPU that uses in-order execution and has long pipelines while the Wii U has a 1.24 Ghz Tri-core, single-threaded CPU that uses out-of-order execution with short pipelines. On the surface this looks bad, but really it is the exact opposite. Yes, the clock speed is slower but it uses newer chip, so it is more efficient at handling tasks. A longer pipeline means that if there is a fault early on, all of the data is wasted and it must finish its way through before the task can be started over. A shorter pipeline means that if there is a fault, it doesn’t take as long to start over regardless of where it happens.

Think of the in-order and out-of-order execution like lines at the grocery store. With in-order there is one line and even if you have less stuff, you have to wait for the person in front of you. With out-of-order, an employee sees you standing there with a basket of items rather than a cart, opens up the express lane so you are able to leave your line and check out. This is a heavily simplified explanation, but you get the general idea. Out-of-order is more efficient and eliminates the need for multithreading, which is why it only has a single thread. This is also why some launch ports on the Wii U run a little bit worse as out-of-order execution can only do so much when the game is specifically coded to utilize multithreading.

That was just the CPU, now on to the GPU. The 360 GPU is capable of Directx 9, and has 10mb of DRAM available to it elsewhere on the motherboard. The Wii U GPU is heavily customized to the point that “tech-heads” and people who analyze die shots for a living can’t tell what chip it is derived from, much less what 30% of it actually does. That being said, it is heavily rumored to contain Directx 11 equivalent functions, and has 32mb of eDRAM available. eDRAM allows for faster access than DRAM and at a higher bandwidth since it is embedded right onto the GPU. The system also utilizes GPGPU processing which allows the GPU to handle functions that would normally be executed by the CPU, reducing the strain all-around. There are far more technical aspects I could get into, but my point has been made.

 

[Schnozberry]

But that would require competence and effort, something that can't be accomplished under Iwate/Reggie.

Or, like in the PS3/Valve situation, giant bags of money. You'd be amazed what can get smoothed over with a giant check ceremony.

Nobody has yet to adequately explain to me why this is a big deal. Most of what avalanche said was bleedingly obvious, and the one controversial point about Nintendo being hard to reach seems to run counter to what a lot of other indie studios are saying. Interestingly enough, people actually making games for Wii U don't seem to report this problem.

This just seems like the GAF daily excuse to pile on Nintendo.

 

[H_Prestige]

DICE has been pretty clear on it as well

They obviously have no idea what they're talking about, the trolls. They should check the WUST some time for some tips.

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

Ouch

 

[Schnozberry]

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

4A Games took an early look at a dev kit and said they didn't have the resources to make it work. That was also before the 25% clock bump and before the tools had matured. They didn't really make much of an effort, and admitted as such.

 

[dragonfart28]

Source?

They were compiled based on financial statements from each company.

Basically, Nintendo got more than four generations worth of profit with the success of the Wii/DS.

The gulf in money printing between them and the competition will never be matched in this industry's history.

 

[Effect]

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

I believe it came out that they were basing their opinion on the very early specs of one of the first dev kits and even then didn't actually have the dev kit themselves to even run software on. I believe they admitted this in the end. Also don't believe they ever looked at any of the final ones and have not commented at all on the final dev kit .Since then we've had different comments (positive) from those that actually have the dev kits and worked on them with current software and documentation.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Didn't come out they only were basing their opinion on the very early specs of one of the first dev kits and even then didn't actually have the dev kit themselves? That they never looked at any of the final ones and have not commented at all on the final dev kit? Since then we've had different comments from those that actually have the dev kits and worked on them with current software and documentation.

Wait, you're actually putting it into context???

How dare you.

 

[StevieP]

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

They obviously have no idea what they're talking about, the trolls. They should check the WUST some time for some tips.



Ouch

I'm sorry guys - does that statement go against the narrative you're trying to set?

 

[Replicant]

Wii U™: The Dust Collector sounds like a fun game. Maybe it can star Luigi and his vacuum cleaner?

 

[sp3000]

I believe it came out that they were basing their opinion on the very early specs of one of the first dev kits and even then didn't actually have the dev kit themselves to even run software on? That they never looked at any of the final ones and have not commented at all on the final dev kit? Since then we've had different comments (positive) from those that actually have the dev kits and worked on them with current software and documentation.

There isn't going to be a large performance difference between the two simply from a clock speed increase. They are called developer kits for a reason, because they provide a strong approximation of final specification.

Even if you going to try to ignore their comments, DICE said a similar thing and they were working with final hardware.

 

[H_Prestige]

I'm sorry guys - does that statement go against the narrative you're trying to set?

Yeah, the "narrative" that Wii U game devs know more about the CPU than some fanboys on GAF.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

They were compiled based on financial statements from each company.

Basically, Nintendo got more than four generations worth of profit with the success of the Wii/DS.

The gulf in money printing between them and the competition will never be matched in this industry's history.

Thanks.

 

[Maxrunner]

So if EA was at one point the BIG partner why didnt they gave nintendo the minimum requirements for the engine?

 

[StevieP]

Yeah, the "narrative" that Wii U game devs know more about the CPU than some fanboys on GAF.

Hahah now I'm a fanboy. I own every platform I want to play games on, thanks. The overwhelming majority of which are on PC.

However, the narrative about the CPU is not one that's marred in many conflicting reports, right? It's not like you could find developers to say the opposite or anything. But don't take my word for it. Carry on.

Or in the words of blu below

I wonder how many of the 'CPU was proclaimed bad by such-and-such dev' posters in this thread realize stupid they sound for those with a clue.

 

[blu]

I'm much more inclined to trust the Metro developers, who have actually made a game, than some random poster who has never even programmed on it and yet claims to know its capabilities

If only half the world's homebrew scene had not programmed for the downclocked Espresso..

I wonder how many of the 'CPU was proclaimed bad by such-and-such dev' posters in this tread realize stupid they sound for those with a clue.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I believe it came out that they were basing their opinion on the very early specs of one of the first dev kits and even then didn't actually have the dev kit themselves to even run software on. I believe they admitted this in the end. Also I don't believe they never looked at any of the final ones and have not commented at all on the final dev kit .Since then we've had different comments (positive) from those that actually have the dev kits and worked on them with current software and documentation.

Thank you for outlining this.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Or, like in the PS3/Valve situation, giant bags of money. You'd be amazed what can get smoothed over with a giant check ceremony.

Nobody has yet to adequately explain to me why this is a big deal. Most of what avalanche said was bleedingly obvious, and the one controversial point about Nintendo being hard to reach seems to run counter to what a lot of other indie studios are saying. Interestingly enough, people actually making games for Wii U don't seem to report this problem.

This just seems like the GAF daily excuse to pile on Nintendo.

Well, it points to resource issues. Nintendo, in all these years, has yet to expand/revamp a developer relations department.

Say you're a developer, and want to work with Nintendo.

What do you do to contact them?

Is there a simple way? How easy is it compared to Sony's?

An initial search (and correct me if I'm mistaken) shows this for Sony

http://www.scedev.net/docs/IRF.pdf



and this for Nintendo:

https://www.warioworld.com/apply/devapplication.asp

 

[H_Prestige]

Hahah now I'm a fanboy. I own every platform I want to play games on, thanks. The overwhelming majority of which are on PC.

However, the narrative about the CPU is not one that's marred in many conflicting reports, right? It's not like you could find developers to say the opposite or anything. But don't take my word for it. Carry on.

If DICE is saying it's shit while someone else says it's fine, what does that tell you?

If a product gets a 50% positive rating does that mean it's good? Or does that mean it has some very real deficiencies?

What is your opinion on the Xenon? Or the CELL? Or how about that netbook CPU in the new consoles?

 

[Mastperf]

If only half the world's homebrew scene had not programmed for the downclocked Espresso..

I wonder how many of the 'CPU was proclaimed bad by such-and-such dev' posters in this tread realize stupid they sound for those with a clue.

Are you a WiiU developer?

 

[D-e-f-]

So if EA was at one point the BIG partner why didnt they gave nintendo the minimum requirements for the engine?

What does this have to do with Avalanche?

 

[StevieP]

If DICE is saying it's shit while someone else says it's fine, what does that tell you?

If a product gets a 50% positive rating does that mean it's good? Or does that mean it has some very real deficiencies?

It tells me you need context. The CPU most certainly has deficiencies - multiple deficiencies in certain areas. Every CPU has deficiencies. The Jaguar has deficiencies. The PPE has deficiencies. The fucking i7 has deficiencies. Every processor has them in some areas, and doesn't have them in others and, in fact, may excel in certain areas. Get a clue.

Back to your regularly scheduled program of discussing the topic at hand, perhaps? Avalanche?

 

[blu]

Are you a WiiU developer?

No. Do I need to be?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Or, like in the PS3/Valve situation, giant bags of money. You'd be amazed what can get smoothed over with a giant check ceremony.

Nobody has yet to adequately explain to me why this is a big deal. Most of what avalanche said was bleedingly obvious, and the one controversial point about Nintendo being hard to reach seems to run counter to what a lot of other indie studios are saying. Interestingly enough, people actually making games for Wii U don't seem to report this problem.

This just seems like the GAF daily excuse to pile on Nintendo.

Oh stop. Gaf isnt a hivemind. People pile on Microsoft, Sony, Valve, EA, Activision. Nintendo isnt different.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

That post was a direct reference to someone making fun of an expression I used earlier in this thread without knowing the context. Besides, the trolls don't need to be brought out. They're already quite active.

Yes, it was a joke no need to take it so personally. No harm was meant. I'm sure your clever enough to know what to take seriously and what not.

I haven't seen many trolls in neogaf tbh. I have seen many fanboys though.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm sorry guys - does that statement go against the narrative you're trying to set?

Not defending their claims at all but...

I'm not sure you're the guy that should be making condemnations about people's aversion to trusting one source over the other.

Afterall your the guy who for over a year argued to death with me and others that the next Xbox/playstation couldn't possibly have more then 2gbs of high quality ram and engaged in the height of rumor cherry picking to support your assumptions.

 

[Mastperf]

No. Do I need to be?

For you and StevieP to be among the elite few with "a clue" I thought at least one of you could back up your vast WiiU knowledge with something.

 

[Schnozberry]

Well, it points to resource issues. Nintendo, in all these years, has yet to expand/revamp a developer relations department.

Say you're a developer, and want to work with Nintendo.

What do you do to contact them?

Is there a simple way? How easy is it compared to Sony's?

An initial search (and correct me if I'm mistaken) shows this for Sony

http://www.scedev.net/docs/IRF.pdf



and this for Nintendo:

https://www.warioworld.com/apply/devapplication.asp

Are you talking major publisher or small developer? I'm sure major publishers have their contacts. Just recently at GDC, Nintendo created this form for small developers to get information.

https://gdc2013.nintendo.com/sign_up.php

 

[StevieP]

Afterall your the guy who for over a year argued to death with me and others that the next Xbox/playstation couldn't possibly have more then 2gbs of ram and engaged in the height of rumor cherry picking to support your assumptions.

Actually, I was just commenting on the faster memory. Because, at that point - I KNEW (not rumours, KNEW) the PS4 had 2GB of GDDR. And at that time (2011) getting any more of the *faster memory type* than 2GB was improbable. It changed and evolved over time, as here we are in mid 2013 and the system still hasn't launched. FYI, Jaguars weren't supposed to be its CPU either. It was supposed to be Steamroller. This is verifiable. But if you're going to call me out, again - get some context.

For you and StevieP to be among the elite few with "a clue" I thought at least one of you could back up your vast WiiU knowledge with something.

Espresso is an evolution - a re-doing, if you will - of a very well-documented IBM CPU.

 

[Effect]

If DICE is saying it's shit while someone else says it's fine, what does that tell you?

If a product gets a 50% positive rating does that mean it's good? Or does that mean it has some very real deficiencies?

You have to look at what conditions they were under when they formed their opinions. The opinions of those who comment on final hardware and more current documentation matters more. The opinon of those that have actually made games on it matters even more.

Opinions formed based on early hardware and specs they've only heard of or without out actually running any code on kits are suspect and should be at the bottom of the list. Those that had issues with early hardware should be asked if their opinion if different now that final hardware is out. If I recall correctly most if not all the launch games were done on non-finalized hardware with early SDKs.

 

[H_Prestige]

It tells me you need context. The CPU most certainly has deficiencies - multiple deficiencies in certain areas. Every CPU has deficiencies. The Jaguar has deficiencies. The PPE has deficiencies. The fucking i7 has deficiencies. Every processor has them in some areas, and doesn't have them in others and, in fact, may excel in certain areas. Get a clue.

Is the Jaguar CPU crappy?

You have to look at what conditions they were under when they formed their opinions. The opinions of those who comment on final hardware and more current documentation matters more. The opinon of those that have actually made games on it matters even more.

Opinions formed based on early hardware and specs they've only heard of or without out actually running any code on kits are suspect and should be at the bottom of the list. Those that had issues with early hardware should be asked if their opinion if different now that final hardware is out. If I recall correctly most if not all the launch games were done on non-finalized hardware with early SDKs.

DICE was on final hardware. They weren't using some fake version of the system.

 

[Schnozberry]

Oh stop. Gaf isnt a hivemind. People pile on Microsoft, Sony, Valve, EA, Activision. Nintendo isnt different.

People have been piling on Nintendo extra hard lately. It's been like two or three threads a day. Pardon me for noticing.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

People have been piling on Nintendo extra hard lately. It's been like two or three threads a day. Pardon me for noticing.

People are posting news, news that deals with Nintendo. Were you complaining when threads were reported daily about negative news regarding MS?

 

[blu]

For you and StevieP to be among the elite few with "a clue" I thought at least one of you could back up your vast WiiU knowledge with something.

For somebody who pops up in the wiiu tech discussions to voice the occasional strong opinion, I thought you'd have done some rudimentary research. Carry on though, as I'd be the last one to stop you. This forum definitely needs more of your kind.

 

[Amir0x]

even if they changed right now, it would only probably help by the time next gen rolls around... wish Nintendo would just get their head in the game

People have been piling on Nintendo extra hard lately. It's been like two or three threads a day. Pardon me for noticing.

I like how this implies there hasn't been sufficient negative Nintendo news for this to be the case. Schnozberry, Nintendo has no one but themselves to blame for the general malaise hovering over their Wii U platform. Blame Nintendo.

 

[Jonm1010]

Actually, I was just commenting on the faster memory. Because, at that point - I KNEW (not rumours, KNEW) the PS4 had 2GB of GDDR. And at that time (2011) getting any more of the *faster memory type* than 2GB was improbable. It changed and evolved over time. FYI, Jaguars weren't supposed to be its CPU either. It was supposed to be Steamroller. This is verifiable. But if you're going to call me out, again - get some context.

If I didn't have work I need to finish up I'd go to my subscriptions and pull up some of the arrogant and condescending remarks you made to many people, me included, because your own biases made you trust one rumor over another even though some of those rumors you threw out look a lot more right then what you were spouting.

My overall point is maybe instead of acting smug to the guys shitting on the CPU you could do like one of the above posters did and post a thought out response that quickly contextualizes why the CPU isn't junk.

 

[Schnozberry]

People are posting news, news that deals with Nintendo. Were you complaining when threads were reported daily about negative news regarding MS?

Actually, yes. I said multiple times in those threads that I don't believe any of it until we get the reveal from Microsoft.