• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Avalanche (Just Cause) - Wii U dev kits collecting dust, Nintendo is hard to reach

StevieP

Banned
Is the Jaguar CPU crappy?

Yes in some ways, no in others. Just as with many other CPUs. You look at IPC, performance per watt, and the Jaguar is a great fit for Sony. I would think developers would've preferred 4 beefier Steamrollers (as they'd prefer an i5/i7 as well, of course) because it does a lot more work per thread. But hey, you adapt to what you've got to work with.

Why are we discussing this in an Avalanche thread?

Amir0x said:
Schnozberry, Nintendo has no one but themselves to blame for the general malaise hovering over their Wii U platform. Blame Nintendo.

This I agree with. The picture painted in the OP is certainly missing something - some detail. But it's Nintendo's bed to sleep in.
 
Many 3rd parties found the Wii's install base too "small" to work with too.

Is anyone surprised that the Wii U's lower numbers continue be used as an excuse?
 

Schnozberry

Member
Well this is news we do know about so its quite relevant.

Relavent to what? A developer that has no plans for making games for Wii U is not in regular contact with Nintendo, and this is somehow evidence of Nintendo's malfeasance. There are lots of ways Nintendo screwed the pooch with the Wii U launch, but this isn't one of them.
 
Yes in some ways, no in others. Just as with many other CPUs. You look at IPC, performance per watt, and the Jaguar is a great fit for Sony. I would think developers would've preferred 4 beefier Steamrollers (as they'd prefer an i5/i7 as well, of course) because it does a lot more work per thread. But hey, you adapt to what you've got to work with.

Why are we discussing this in an Avalanche thread?
How is the Wii U CPU crappy?

Oh, and I read the topic title and there is actually more to the title than just "Avalanche". Maybe you should try practicing some of that context placement you keep talking about before doing the not so subtle backseat modding.
 
Relavent to what? A developer that has no plans for making games for Wii U is not in regular contact with Nintendo, and this is somehow evidence of Nintendo's malfeasance. There are lots of ways Nintendo screwed the pooch with the Wii U launch, but this isn't one of them.

It's nintendo's job to create good relationships with devs and publishers, not the other way around
 

Schnozberry

Member
Schnozberry, Nintendo has no one but themselves to blame for the general malaise hovering over their Wii U platform. Blame Nintendo.

I'm critical of Nintendo's handling of the launch. They didn't have the tools ready for developers, which I think is the biggest and most notable failure. They didn't advertise the system correctly, and they didn't have the system software in a state of acceptable performance. But in terms of this particular thread, I think it's an overreaction.
 

Raist

Banned
I feel this is very appropriate here... I think it's time to confront this "'Third Parties' never sell on Nintendo consoles" bullshit once and for all, as well as the idea that Nintendo fans don't buy certain genres.

Most of this has nothing to do with the Wii/WiiU. DS games are irrelevant.
And then there's weird arbitrary comparisons between unrelated franchises on different consoles. I mean RE4 vs Bayonetta? Really? Why not compare RE4 wii vs RE5?

If if was so easy for 3rd parties to sell games on Nintendo's home consoles, you'd think they would not disregard them, no? Unless they have some kind of random anti-Nintendo agenda or something.
 
Relavent to what? A developer that has no plans for making games for Wii U is not in regular contact with Nintendo, and this is somehow evidence of Nintendo's malfeasance. There are lots of ways Nintendo screwed the pooch with the Wii U launch, but this isn't one of them.

That's not their job. The Wii U is nintendo's product, and if they want it to sell they're the ones who have to go out and do the hard work.
 

Schnozberry

Member
It's nintendo's job to create good relationships with devs and publishers, not the other way around

It seems like they have with a lot of independent game makers. One developer says he hasn't been contacted and it's extrapolated out to be the prime example that represents Nintendo's entire approach to third parties. That's the part I disagree with.
 

zruben

Banned
It's nintendo's job to create good relationships with devs and publishers, not the other way around

to be fair, if I publish a game, I would like to publish them in all the possible plataforms... you reach more people and you win more money...

so, it's not a "crazy idea" to think that the publishers should do some RP once in a while.
 

sp3000

Member
People have been piling on Nintendo extra hard lately. It's been like two or three threads a day. Pardon me for noticing.

If you aren't interested in a thread, don't post in it. Reasoning that it shouldn't exist because of your Nintendo persecution complex isn't a valid reason.
 

Azih

Member
to be fair, if I publish a game, I would like to publish them in all the possible plataforms... you reach more people and you win more money...

so, it's not a "crazy idea" to think that the publishers should do some RP once in a while.

That only happens when there is platform that publishers think they can get a good ROI on.

Publishers were begging to develop for the NES, and they were begging to develop for the PS2. Guess why? What did those two have that the WiiU doesn't?
 

Oppo

Member
It seems like they have with a lot of independent game makers. One developer says he hasn't been contacted and it's extrapolated out to be the prime example that represents Nintendo's entire approach to third parties. That's the part I disagree with.

Not sure if you've been keeping up but the main narrative theme these days seems to be: Sony is doing a ton of indie outreach, and Nintendo seems to be trying but isn't getting the same result across the board. There are a lot of developer reports floating around that have this same theme. The Just Add Water guys come to mind lately.
 

Schnozberry

Member
If you aren't interested in a thread, don't post in it. Reasoning that it shouldn't exist because of your Nintendo persecution complex isn't a valid reason.

Why is it that everyone who has a dissenting opinion around here has some kind of complex? I was a corporate apologist in the Microsoft threads for mentioning that it was a possibility that people were overreacting to the always online rumor.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Relavent to what? A developer that has no plans for making games for Wii U is not in regular contact with Nintendo, and this is somehow evidence of Nintendo's malfeasance. There are lots of ways Nintendo screwed the pooch with the Wii U launch, but this isn't one of them.

They said they had a hard time contacting and knowing who to contact, IF(and i say IF in the sense that this might not be the case)this is not an isolated incident from one developer it says Nintendo has not done a good job developing a communication line for at least some developers to get in contact and regularly communicate with Nintendo.

And IF that is the case it IS noteworthy and could give a better picture of one of the areas where Nintendo may be lacking with some of their third party relationships.

Perhaps it's a consequence of Nintendo not having the large infrastructure and resources in place like Sony or Microsoft do to devout to this aspect of the process or perhaps it's something more structural or even cynical. I'm just speculating.

I like Nintendo but I'm apt to believe avalanche because I've been around since NES and watched as they started to get arrogant during the SNES and have waited for them to modernize their thinking and approach but each gen comes and and goes and the one constant has been that Nintendo continues to have difficulty with third party relationships.
 
Why is it that everyone who has a dissenting opinion around here has some kind of complex? I was a corporate apologist in the Microsoft threads for mentioning that it was a possibility that people were overreacting to the always online rumor.

Because you're arguing that this isn't news and that Nitendo isn't to blame for this situation specifically with third parties.
 

SmokyDave

Member
People have been piling on Nintendo extra hard lately. It's been like two or three threads a day. Pardon me for noticing.
Dude, the successor to one of the best selling consoles of all time is a spectacular flop. It's getting all of the flak that the Wii was due*, and then some. You'd be crazy not to notice it. It ain't going to go away though, you might as well get used to it. When 3D Mario doesn't magically reverse fortunes, it'll get even worse.

*Fuck the expanded audience. Fuck the blue ocean. Now they've moved on to iOS, people are quite happy to stick the knife in. When they were keeping one of the big 3 afloat, sentiments were very different.
 

mdtauk

Member
If I were Nintendo, I don't think I would be devoting time to a developer who "has no plans" to develop for the Wii U platform.
 
Many 3rd parties found the Wii's install base too "small" to work with too.

Is anyone surprised that the Wii U's lower numbers continue be used as an excuse?



Last time i checked (earlier this year) their were roughly 1200 games released for the Wii.
360 was at around 900 & PS3 was around 800.

EA for instance released more games on the Wii than the ps3 or 360. Remember all of those "My Sims" games they released? Activision infamously released roughly 10 of those Cabela's hunting games on the Wii.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Not sure if you've been keeping up but the main narrative theme these days seems to be: Sony is doing a ton of indie outreach, and Nintendo seems to be trying but isn't getting the same result across the board. There are a lot of developer reports floating around that have this same theme. The Just Add Water guys come to mind lately.

Can you point me to some links? I read the comments from the Just Add Water guys, but that was back in January and before Nintendo officially let the cat out of the bag about their new eShop policies. I've been reading that they had a lot of interest come out of GDC, and from their presence at the Indie Games Summit, as covered here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=543921
 

StevieP

Banned
How is the Wii U CPU crappy?

SIMD performance is lackluster. In any metric involving floating point performance, it will compare poorly with the PPE, for example. That's why Nintendo has put most of its smallish silicon budget into the GPU. Difference CPU-strokes for different folks. Jaguar has better floating point performance than the IBM 750, based on Bobcat at least, but it's not as good as the PPE either. That's why Microsoft and Sony are spending most of their main silicon budgets GPU as well. Don't take everything you hear at face value.

That only happens when there is platform that publishers think they can get a good ROI on.

Publishers were begging to develop for the NES, and they were begging to develop for the PS2. Guess why? What did those two have that the WiiU doesn't?

I notice you edited your post because your previous version would have implied that publishers go where the biggest userbase is, which obviously has not been the case over the previous generation. It's all about ROI in their eyes. Problem is that the Wii's tie ratio was 9 (comparable to the other platforms) and they weren't all Nintendo's games according to their FY PDFs. So someone was selling games. It just wasn't AAA material for the most part.
 

Alex

Member
My only take on the indie stuff is that Nintendo said the same thing about the 3DS eShop, yet so little of merit outside of Nintendo's own hits it, and when it does it's rarely with any mention.

Meanwhile, indie content rains from the sky lately on PS3 and Vita and continues on. I see so many announcements and blog posts and little interviews and when the games come out they're plastered on the OS and store front.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Because you're arguing that this isn't news and that Nitendo isn't to blame for this situation specifically with third parties.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're blaming them for in this particular instance. Nintendo has fucked up relationships with third parties in the past, I never denied any of that. You just put those words into my mouth. I just don't understand why they are being reamed for not being in constant contact with someone who apparently has not made it known they had any interest in developing for the platform.
 
People are posting news, news that deals with Nintendo. Were you complaining when threads were reported daily about negative news regarding MS?
I like how this implies there hasn't been sufficient negative Nintendo news for this to be the case. Schnozberry, Nintendo has no one but themselves to blame for the general malaise hovering over their Wii U platform. Blame Nintendo.
You guys are disingenuous. A good number of the threads being posted about Nintendo are sheer editorial, riding atop a narrative that has reached weird hyperbolic proportions at this point. Not because Nintendo did a bang up job launching the Wii or anything (I think it's pretty commonly accepted they dropped the ball on multiple fronts), but because there's there's a cast of like a half dozen GAF characters who routinely give their same "matter-of-fact" interpretation of why Nintendo is totally fucked and nothing they could possibly save them now, short of emulating their competition's strategies. Not to mention "Please understand", which is possibly the stupidest most overused GAF meme in the first half of this year. I'm sort of amazed it's not bannable yet, seeing as how it's become pure spam and contributes about as much to a running dialogue as "First post!"

And no, it's not really comparable to reactions to MS rumors. The rumors over Durango have mostly been just that- rumors. Secondly, people have a very particular love/hate relationship with Nintendo, probably because they've had such a long standing and pervasive influence on the industry, and had multiple generations that challenged people's expectations. That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really make the carnival of stupid surrounding Nintendo threads these days any less obnoxious. The only remotely comparable example I can think of was when the PS3 stumbled a bit out of the gate after Sony rode high for 2 generations.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Can you point me to some links? I read the comments from the Just Add Water guys, but that was back in January and before Nintendo officially let the cat out of the bag about their new eShop policies. I've been reading that they had a lot of interest come out of GDC, and from their presence at the Indie Games Summit, as covered here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=543921

Here where I thin Nintendo is going to have issues with indies. Sony, Microsoft and the PC are all about to have very similar architecture and tools. Meanwhile the wiiU is over in the corner with a low install base and from what I have read a much less user friendly architecture and at the very least notably different from the PC/Xbox/ps4 counterparts.

If I'm an indie right now looking to make my first splash and I don't have a money hat Nintendo is unfortunately my last choice given the install base, the lower exposure, poorer ease of use and portability and the less revenue potential.
 

Order

Member
Because it's Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't do a "me too" thing often, nor focus solely upon power, seemingly foolishly thinking that it's games that matter, not tech and so the western companies and journalists seem to not like them and/or want them gone
I don't do responses like this often but, lol

People wondering why their favorite company are being criticised are just so lol
 

PhantomR

Banned
Not sure if you've been keeping up but the main narrative theme these days seems to be: Sony is doing a ton of indie outreach, and Nintendo seems to be trying but isn't getting the same result across the board. There are a lot of developer reports floating around that have this same theme. The Just Add Water guys come to mind lately.


No, I don't agree with you there. That's fairly inaccurate. If you've been keeping up with Nintendo software development you'd see that indies are just as jazzed about Wii U development as they are about Vita development.
 
Here where I thin Nintendo is going to have issues with indies. Sony, Microsoft and the PC are all about to have very similar architecture and tools. Meanwhile the wiiU is over in the corner with a low install base and from what I have read a much less user friendly architecture and at the very least notably different from the PC/Xbox/ps4 counterparts.

If I'm an indie right now looking to make my first splash and I don't have a money hat Nintendo is unfortunately my last choice given the install base, the lower exposure, poorer ease of use and portability and the less revenue potential.

i thought idie's were enjoying better success on the Wii U atm then the 360/ps3 (i.e. Runner 2 and Trine 2)
 

Schnozberry

Member
Here where I thin Nintendo is going to have issues with indies. Sony, Microsoft and the PC are all about to have very similar architecture and tools. Meanwhile the wiiU is over in the corner with a low install base and from what I have read a much less user friendly architecture and at the very least notably different from the PC/Xbox/ps4 counterparts.

If I'm an indie right now looking to make my first splash and I don't have a money hat Nintendo is unfortunately my last choice given the install base, the lower exposure, poorer ease of use and portability and the less revenue potential.

I think it really depends on how friendly Nintendo is with them, and how much support is offered. Seems like a lot of free dev kits were sent out, and they are offered far more flexibility now with the eShop than they had in the past on PSN and XBLA. If nothing else, the web framework will allow even smaller devs to get their ideas on both 3DS and Wii U. The ability to set their own pricing and the free game patching has been pretty well received.
 

prag16

Banned
DICE was on final hardware. They weren't using some fake version of the system.

Source? It depends entirely when they ran these alleged "tests" with FB2. If they did it in 2011 or early 2012 they were using the same alleged garbage the Metro devs scoffed at.

FB3 has been under development for a long time now. Why would they use FB2 if this testing was done within the past 1/2 year? Assuming that's the case without proof reveals your agenda.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Source? It depends entirely when they ran these alleged "tests" with FB2. If they did it in 2011 or early 2012 they were using the same alleged garbage the Metro devs scoffed at.

FB3 has been under development for a long time now. Why would they use FB2 if this testing was done within the past 1/2 year? Assuming that's the case without proof reveals your agenda.

That was my thought as well. If they were using the early kits that had 25% slower clocks with the archaic tools, they probably would have scoffed at it, and I wouldn't blame them.
 

prag16

Banned
That was my thought as well. If they were using the early kits that had 25% slower clocks with the archaic tools, they probably would have scoffed at it, and I wouldn't blame them.

Right, and I don't think any of us "Nintendo defenders" are trying to claim Nintendo deserves no blame in the fact the the tools WERE apparently so shoddy, even close to release.

The amount of GAF'ers unwilling to admit Nintendo bungled the Wii U launch in multiple ways at this point can probably be counted on half of one hand.
 
You guys are disingenuous. A good number of the threads being posted about Nintendo are sheer editorial, riding atop a narrative that has reached weird hyperbolic proportions at this point. Not because Nintendo did a bang up job launching the Wii or anything (I think it's pretty commonly accepted they dropped the ball on multiple fronts), but because there's there's a cast of like a half dozen GAF characters who routinely give their same "matter-of-fact" interpretation of why Nintendo is totally fucked and nothing they could possibly save them now, short of emulating their competition's strategies. Not to mention "Please understand", which is possibly the stupidest most overused GAF meme in the first half of this year. I'm sort of amazed it's not bannable yet, seeing as how it's become pure spam and contributes about as much to a running dialogue as "First post!"

And no, it's not really comparable to reactions to MS rumors. The rumors over Durango have mostly been just that- rumors. Secondly, people have a very particular love/hate relationship with Nintendo, probably because they've had such a long standing and pervasive influence on the industry, and had multiple generations that challenged people's expectations. That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really make the carnival of stupid surrounding Nintendo threads these days any less obnoxious. The only remotely comparable example I can think of was when the PS3 stumbled a bit out of the gate after Sony rode high for 2 generations.


Excellent post.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
i thought idie's were enjoying better success on the Wii U atm then the 360/ps3 (i.e. Runner 2 and Trine 2)

My point was just that in a years time you are gonna have three systems - PC, 720, ps3 - all similar and easier to work with(architecturally speaking) and with a likely much larger install base so even Nintendo's best efforts might not be enough to make a truly thriving and unique indie community emerge on their platform.

I think it really depends on how friendly Nintendo is with them, and how much support is offered. Seems like a lot of free dev kits were sent out, and they are offered far more flexibility now with the eShop than they had in the past on PSN and XBLA. If nothing else, the web framework will allow even smaller devs to get their ideas on both 3DS and Wii U. The ability to set their own pricing and the free game patching has been pretty well received.

Which in spite of my many criticisms of Nintendo it is one of the most forward thinking things they've done in years when it comes to developer friendly practices.

I'm just not sure it's gonna be able to offset some of the other forces at play working against its potential - poor and clunky OS, low install base, poor and sloppy release that didnt adequately prepare developers, more dated and complicated hardware then competitors, etc.
 

ascii42

Member
That was my thought as well. If they were using the early kits that had 25% slower clocks with the archaic tools, they probably would have scoffed at it, and I wouldn't blame them.

Right, so I guess the question is, how can Nintendo convince devs to take a second look at the finalized hardware?
 

sp3000

Member
Source? It depends entirely when they ran these alleged "tests" with FB2. If they did it in 2011 or early 2012 they were using the same alleged garbage the Metro devs scoffed at.

FB3 has been under development for a long time now. Why would they use FB2 if this testing was done within the past 1/2 year? Assuming that's the case without proof reveals your agenda.

I really hope people stop using this Frostbite 3 terminology. FB3 is nothing less than a slightly updated version of FB2. It's comparable to the changes from Bad Company to Bad Company 2.

FB2 was a pretty huge step up from the engine used in BF BC2, but FB3 is not anywhere on the same level. It's just marketing.
 
My point was just that in a years time you are gonna have three systems - PC, 720, ps3 - all similar and easier to work with(architecturally speaking) and with a likely much larger install base so even Nintendo's best efforts might not be enough to make a truly thriving and unique indie community emerge on their platform.



Which in spite of my many criticisms of Nintendo it is one of the most forward thinking things they've done in years when it comes to developer friendly practices.

I'm just not sure it's gonna be able to offset some of the other forces at play working against its potential - poor and clunky OS, low install base, more dated and complicated hardware then competitors, etc.

I think it will be hard for N to differentiate itself from Sony when it comes to indie output, as Sony seems to be going after them hard aswell. But they should be able to do better than MS. Also, since sales on the Wii U seem to be better for indies atm, even with the small install base, it should keep getting quality eshop games.

Also, for small indie games, being able to play them exclusively on the controller could really help people decide to buy it for the Wii U, instead of the other systems.
 

Schnozberry

Member
I'm just not sure it's gonna be able to offset some of the other forces at play working against its potential - poor and clunky OS, low install base, poor and sloppy release that didnt adequately prepare developers, more dated and complicated hardware then competitors, etc.

It's up to Nintendo to fix all of that. Seems like some of it is underway, especially the improved dev tools and OS work that is already partially done. A lot of it really falls on their end of year software push, and hopefully a price cut.
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
You guys are disingenuous. A good number of the threads being posted about Nintendo are sheer editorial, riding atop a narrative that has reached weird hyperbolic proportions at this point.
Is the supposed "hyperbolic narrative" posts like yours that act as if Nintendo is being persecuted by evil, evil bloodthirsty forum posters? Because that's what there is.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Right, and I don't think any of us "Nintendo defenders" are trying to claim Nintendo deserves no blame in the fact the the tools WERE apparently so shoddy, even close to release.

The amount of GAF'ers unwilling to admit Nintendo bungled the Wii U launch in multiple ways at this point can probably be counted on half of one hand.

Right, so I guess the question is, how can Nintendo convince devs to take a second look at the finalized hardware?

My hope is that they learn what western developers respond to and start writing checks. Iwata talked about 3rd party partnerships, so lets hope some of them are western and they are bringing games the US audience wants.

And yes, prag16, Nintendo bungling the launch wholesale is a matter of incontrovertible fact.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
I think it will be hard for N to differentiate itself from Sony when it comes to indie output, as Sony seems to be going after them hard aswell. But they should be able to do better than MS. Also, since sales on the Wii U seem to be better for indies atm, even with the small install base, it should keep getting quality eshop games.

Also, for small indie games, being able to play them exclusively on the controller could really help people decide to buy it for the Wii U, instead of the other systems.

Perhaps, and despite my large criticisms I want Nintendo to succeed. I just feel like once things get into full swing with 720/ps4 and all their new bells and whistles and Sonys big push for indies that the eshop will be left on the margins much like the rest of console is.

Which is unfortunate if it does because indies is the one area I think Nintendo is getting things right - at least from what I can tell.
 

Kimawolf

Member
Is the supposed "hyperbolic narrative" posts like yours that act as if Nintendo is being persecuted by evil, evil bloodthirsty forum posters? Because that's what there is.

LOL i don't know about evil, but whenever a Wii U thread pops up with even a hint of negative information (no matter how overblown or in this case, nonsensical, a developer not making Wii U games not getting contacted by Nintendo, go figure) you can guarantee there will be the same 4 or so people come into the thread and basically post the same exact argument or meme in every Wii U thread.

You know it used to happen in PC threads (lol 5k pc to play games, comfy couch, PC overlords, etc), but then mods got tired of it and it became bannable.
 
Perhaps, and despite my large criticisms I want Nintendo to succeed. I just feel like once things get into full swing with 720/ps4 and all their new bells and whistles and Sonys big push for indies that the eshop will be left on the margins much like the rest of console is.

Which is unfortunate if it does because indies is the one area I think Nintendo is getting things right - at least from what I can tell.

I think they will end up doing Ok this gen, and for indies, but nowhere even close to Wii numbers. Nintendo has a much better buisness plan for profitablity than most give them credit. Even if the machine turns into a "Nintendo games" machine with your sprinkled Bayonetta, TW101, and X sprinkled thourghout its life, they will still most likely be profitable, and hopefully learn that while they dont need to be comparable spec wise to other machines, they atleast have to be strong enough to make it easily portable to.
 
Top Bottom