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[ClovingWestbrook]

You guys are disingenuous. A good number of the threads being posted about Nintendo are sheer editorial, riding atop a narrative that has reached weird hyperbolic proportions at this point. Not because Nintendo did a bang up job launching the Wii or anything (I think it's pretty commonly accepted they dropped the ball on multiple fronts), but because there's there's a cast of like a half dozen GAF characters who routinely give their same "matter-of-fact" interpretation of why Nintendo is totally fucked and nothing they could possibly save them now, short of emulating their competition's strategies. Not to mention "Please understand", which is possibly the stupidest most overused GAF meme in the first half of this year. I'm sort of amazed it's not bannable yet, seeing as how it's become pure spam and contributes about as much to a running dialogue as "First post!"

And no, it's not really comparable to reactions to MS rumors. The rumors over Durango have mostly been just that- rumors. Secondly, people have a very particular love/hate relationship with Nintendo, probably because they've had such a long standing and pervasive influence on the industry, and had multiple generations that challenged people's expectations. That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really make the carnival of stupid surrounding Nintendo threads these days any less obnoxious. The only remotely comparable example I can think of was when the PS3 stumbled a bit out of the gate after Sony rode high for 2 generations.

Meh. I bought the Wii U day one and have repeatedly said that I don't regret it. I bought it knowing that it would only be for nintendo games and off screen use of Netflix and whatnot.

I'm hyped for a few Wii U games this year and LttP 2 is my most hyped handheld game. I am however disappointed with nintendo repeating the same incompetence it has for multiple generations. Nintendo screwed the pooch and deserve to be called out for it.

Nintendo had a chance to really do great things with the Wii U for the launch and since. It hasnt. It's done everything possible to screw itself.

Calling Nintendo out is no different than what goes on with every other pub and console manufacturer on this forum.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Is the supposed "hyperbolic narrative" posts like yours that act as if Nintendo is being persecuted by evil, evil bloodthirsty forum posters? Because that's what there is.

...

Meh. I bought the Wii U day one and have repeatedly said that I don't regret it. I bought it knowing that it would only be for nintendo games and off screen use of Netflix and whatnot.

I'm hyped for a few Wii U games this year and LttP 2 is my most hyped handheld game. I am however disappointed with nintendo repeating the same incompetence it has for multiple generations. Nintendo screwed the pooch and deserve to be called out for it.

Nintendo had a chance to really do great things with the Wii U for the launch and since. It hasnt. It's done everything possible to screw itself.

Calling Nintendo out is no different than what goes on with every other pub and console manufacturer on this forum.

I bought the console is the message board equivalent of "I have a black friend". Anyway, I agree Nintendo deserves to be called out. And they have been. There are posters who have made cogent arguments about how and why Nintendo has fallen short of the mark, and that's all fair game. I'm not addressing them. But that's not the same as the Iwata is steering the Titanic into an iceberg crowd. And no, not all criticism is equal. Say what you will, I believe there's a special type of hyperbole reserved for Nintendo, probably on both sides of the fence. At this time it's overwhelming directed towards their doom and failure though. And it has been. For months. Yeah, people criticize everything to varying degrees, but a reasoned critique is not the same thing as the patently ridiculous "next Dreamcast" narrative the Wii U has taken on before there's even a second wave of software. And like I said before, I've only noticed this level of hyperbole applied to another console manufacturer once in my time on GAF, and that was at Sony during the early PS3 era. In fact, it's in relation to instances like that, or the first year of the 3DS that one can see how truly and stupidly hyperbolic the response to the Wii U has been. As I said, not because Nintendo didn't fuck up, but because every underwhelming launch isn't the end of the world.

 

[spannicus]

If PS4 or NextBox fail to establish this imaginary install base that many assume is gonna be ginormous will Devs and Publishers still stay aboard just to have good relations with Sony and Microsoft? Nintendo kind of deserves this shit for delivering this malnute console in the mist of upcoming competition. Disgusting really.

 

[Flightmare]

Meh. I bought the Wii U day one and have repeatedly said that I don't regret it. I bought it knowing that it would only be for nintendo games and off screen use of Netflix and whatnot.

I'm hyped for a few Wii U games this year and LttP 2 is my most hyped handheld game. I am however disappointed with nintendo repeating the same incompetence it has for multiple generations. Nintendo screwed the pooch and deserve to be called out for it.

Nintendo had a chance to really do great things with the Wii U for the launch and since. It hasnt. It's done everything possible to screw itself.

Calling Nintendo out is no different than what goes on with every other pub and console manufacturer on this forum.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about the Wii U

 

[NotLiquid]

If PS4 or NextBox fail to establish this imaginary install base that everyone assumes is gonna be ginormous will Devs and Publishers still stay aboard just to have good relations with Sony and Microsoft? Nintendo kind of deserves this shit for delivering this malnute console in the mist of upcoming competition. Disgusting really.

Nothing shown so far for the PS4 at least has proven to be a system super seller, but it's in the developers best interest to have an output for the PS4 and XB3 which will push sales, assuming there isn't a bizarro scenario where they actually do worse than the Wii U in long term. Developers with smaller budgets might find solace in having their output be available on it if that ever happens.

 

[QaaQer]

LOL i don't know about evil, but whenever a Wii U thread pops up with even a hint of negative information (no matter how overblown or in this case, nonsensical, a developer not making Wii U games not getting contacted by Nintendo, go figure) you can guarantee there will be the same 4 or so people come into the thread and basically post the same exact argument or meme in every Wii U thread.

Actually, what happens in many wii u threads is a back and forth between defenders and attackers who talk at each other. Sometimes it is entertaining, sometimes not, rarely is it edifying.

 

[prag16]

I really hope people stop using this Frostbite 3 terminology. FB3 is nothing less than a slightly updated version of FB2. It's comparable to the changes from Bad Company to Bad Company 2.

FB2 was a pretty huge step up from the engine used in BF BC2, but FB3 is not anywhere on the same level. It's just marketing.

My bad for calling it what DICE calls it. Also, way to 100% sidestep the point.

 

[Mlatador]

I don't think they've had plans of developing for the Wii U in the first place.

 

[Schnozberry]

Nothing shown so far for the PS4 at least has proven to be a system super seller, but it's in the developers best interest to have an output for the PS4 and XB3 which will push sales, assuming there isn't a bizarro scenario where they actually do worse than the Wii U in long term. Developers with smaller budgets might find solace in having their output be available on it if that ever happens.

I think the biggest hurdle PS4 and the Next Xbox will face is price, especially while cross gen games are still here. I think both of them will succeed in the long run, but you can't expect much more than early adopters at a $400+ price of entry.

 

[Fandangox]

Meh. I bought the Wii U day one and have repeatedly said that I don't regret it. I bought it knowing that it would only be for nintendo games and off screen use of Netflix and whatnot.

I'm hyped for a few Wii U games this year and LttP 2 is my most hyped handheld game. I am however disappointed with nintendo repeating the same incompetence it has for multiple generations. Nintendo screwed the pooch and deserve to be called out for it.

Nintendo had a chance to really do great things with the Wii U for the launch and since. It hasnt. It's done everything possible to screw itself.

Calling Nintendo out is no different than what goes on with every other pub and console manufacturer on this forum.

I wonder if the headstart is actually not being wasted. I mean, lets say in a hypothetical scenario, Nintendo holds off the Wii U launch until closer to that of the PS4/Nexboxt releases. So the OS is not rushed, Miiverse already implemented and some of the promised "launch window" games (W101, Pikmin) were coming out as launch games.

Wouldn't in this scenario Nintendo be in a worse position since their hardware would immediately be compared to the other 2 consoles, and they would still be struggling under HD development.

Basically what I am saying is: Is the fact that they fucked while having a headstart to clear the mess up somewhat some sort of silver lining considering what would had happened had they not rused their launch for this holiday and wait for the next one.

This is of course meaningless, as we can't really tell what could have happened either way, and it could be argued that releasing in 2011 would have helped them more, but I thought it would be an interesting way to look at it.

 

[Jonm1010]

I think they will end up doing Ok this gen, and for indies, but nowhere even close to Wii numbers. Nintendo has a much better buisness plan for profitablity than most give them credit. Even if the machine turns into a "Nintendo games" machine with your sprinkled Bayonetta, TW101, and X sprinkled thourghout its life, they will still most likely be profitable, and hopefully learn that while they dont need to be comparable spec wise to other machines, they atleast have to be strong enough to make it easily portable to.

I'm not as confident.

I keep coming back to the fact that Nintendo severely underestimated - in their own words - the manpower and labor needed to output on this type of hardware(HD hardware). Delays mean more money, more manpower means more money.

Nintendo fans used to like to point out the increased cost to develop for 360/ps3 over the wii. Well now Nintendo is one of those. And with it comes higher development costs and a need for higher sales to offset it.

Will Nintendo still be profitable if they are selling a system that supposedly they aren't making much if any profit on right now? Selling to the lowest install base they have ever had at this point in their life cycle? All while dealing with increased development costs and the lowest third party support since the N64 days?

As mad as I've been at them since the N64 days for their insulated and odd decisions and how they ignore or misinterpret trend after trend after trend, they still make some of the best games in the business and it would be a shame to see them leave the console business because I don't think Nintendo would remain Nintendo for very long if they went third party.

 

[Mashing]

So at what point do Nintendo fans start to blame Nintendo for their situation? Every time a developer comes out with reasons for why they aren't developing for the Wii U, it's always the developer is "lying" or "making excuses".

In reality it's a little bit of both. Neither party is willing to compromise which is the problem.

 

[Schnozberry]

I wonder if the headstart is actually not being wasted. I mean, lets say in a hypothetical scenario, Nintendo holds off the Wii U launch until closer to that of the PS4/Nexboxt releases. So the OS is not rushed, Miiverse already implemented and some of the promised "launch window" games (W101, Pikmin) were coming out as launch games.

Wouldn't in this scenario Nintendo be in a worse position since their hardware would immediately be compared to the other 2 consoles, and they would still be struggling under HD development.

Basically what I am saying is: Is the fact that they fucked while having a headstart to clear the mess up somewhat some sort of silver lining considering what would had happened had they not rused their launch for this holiday and wait for the next one.

This is of course meaningless, as we can't really tell what could have happened either way, and it could be argued that releasing in 2011 would have helped them more, but I thought it would be an interesting way to look at it.

I think they launched about 6 months too early, but had already committed to retailers and their shareholders and it was too late to back out. They didn't have mature development tools ready until right before launch, the OS was missing features and partially baked, and they were behind schedule on games.

In the CVG article about 3D Mario being released in October, it points out that Iwata has been reluctant to spend more money advertising and pushing the Wii U until they get the OS fixed and have games ready to go. I think it points to a soft re-launch in the second half of the year heading into the holidays, likely starting at E3.

 

[Jonm1010]

If PS4 or NextBox fail to establish this imaginary install base that many assume is gonna be ginormous will Devs and Publishers still stay aboard just to have good relations with Sony and Microsoft? Nintendo kind of deserves this shit for delivering this malnute console in the mist of upcoming competition. Disgusting really.

They will. Historical precedent and all that plus - as this forum attests to - most publishers and developers have put most of their eggs in the Sony/Microsoft baskets.

It's why I said earlier I feel Nintendo really needed to out Sony what Sony is doing this gen. They needed to have constant boots on the ground working with developers to gain support early and then foster that by catering the console to their wants and needs and keeping them involved at every step. Really rebuild relationships and make new ones not just by saying you want to be third party friendly but by actually doing it by catering the hardware to what they want(within reason and I'm not even saying making it ps4 power). And they needed to hit their launch out the park to show third parties that wii wasn't an abberation and they can find success on their platform.

Instead their isn't that precedent or large vested interest in Nintendo from thir parties and their launch didn't do much to dispel any reservations so of course third parties treated them differently.

 

[darkstar0155]

I'm not as confident.

I keep coming back to the fact that Nintendo severely underestimated - in their own words - the manpower and labor needed to output on this type of hardware(HD hardware). Delays mean more money, more manpower means more money.

Nintendo fans used to like to point out the increased cost to develop for 360/ps3 over the wii. Well now Nintendo is one of those. And with it comes higher development costs and a need for higher sales to offset it.

Will Nintendo still be profitable if they are selling a system that supposedly they aren't making much if any profit on right now? Selling to the lowest install base they have ever had at this point in their life cycle? All while dealing with increased development costs and the lowest third party support since the N64 days?

As mad as I've been at them since the N64 days for their insulated and odd decisions and how they ignore or misinterpret trend after trend after trend, they still make some of the best games in the business and it would be a shame to see them leave the console business because I don't think Nintendo would remain Nintendo for very long if they went third party.

All very valid points and things that i have thought of myself often. But if they can put up similiar numbers for Mario Kart, Wii Fit U (doubtful on this one), and mainline mario games, even if they cost more they will still be profitable. I dont think that they could afford two huge bombs in a row (gen wise), they should have enough cash in the bank to survive one bad gen (hell, sony did it even while their entire company was falling apart)

 

[Amir0x]

This I agree with. The picture painted in the OP is certainly missing something - some detail. But it's Nintendo's bed to sleep in.

The best way to illustrate this is to simply show the general consensus about the 3DS on neoGAF - we've had several topics of the type like 'will 3DS be the best gaming platform ever by the end of its life' and applauding Nintendo's aggressive approach to the system.

neoGAF is not a hive mind of course, but a average consensus may form... and it usually simply follows the flow of news as it happens. Nintendo's current status of Wii U cannot be described as anything except "abysmal", so more than a minority will be dour about its prospects. 3DS, on the other hand, started out rough - and neoGAF reflected that to a degree - and then turned it around with careful strategics (price cut, ambassador, game release list), a move neoGAF also had a generally positive response to on average.

I'm critical of Nintendo's handling of the launch. They didn't have the tools ready for developers, which I think is the biggest and most notable failure. They didn't advertise the system correctly, and they didn't have the system software in a state of acceptable performance. But in terms of this particular thread, I think it's an overreaction.

Well it's important to not view a particular thread in a window. If a topic feeds a specific narrative that has been growing as a result of a companies actions, naturally it may appear more negative than the news by itself may warrant. But of course, news like this does not exist in a vacuum... it is piling on top of what appears to be quite nearly non-stop negative Wii U news. And as neoGAF is the preeminent gaming forum on the internet, it makes sense that the buzz around the platform would side with harsh.

As an aside: you shouldn't take these things personal, even if it may seem unfair. These are just videogame platforms and people are passionate about things they love.

You guys are disingenuous. A good number of the threads being posted about Nintendo are sheer editorial, riding atop a narrative that has reached weird hyperbolic proportions at this point. Not because Nintendo did a bang up job launching the Wii or anything (I think it's pretty commonly accepted they dropped the ball on multiple fronts), but because there's there's a cast of like a half dozen GAF characters who routinely give their same "matter-of-fact" interpretation of why Nintendo is totally fucked and nothing they could possibly save them now, short of emulating their competition's strategies. Not to mention "Please understand", which is possibly the stupidest most overused GAF meme in the first half of this year. I'm sort of amazed it's not bannable yet, seeing as how it's become pure spam and contributes about as much to a running dialogue as "First post!"

Not only aren't we disingenuous, but this post of yours suggests only that this may be true of yourself. There are hundreds of neoGAF posters - even many who love Nintendo - who are echo chambering a specific outlook about the Nintendo Wii U.

Now, the next question you must ask yourself is "why is this the case?"

Is there something that we are exaggerating for effect? Is there a way to quantify this? Well, yes there is.

Just in the past few months ->

Frostbite Technical Director on Why Frostbite never came to Wii U
Nintendo's comically awful virtual console Wii U release list
Wii U hacked (this is bad or good depending on which side you're on)
Madden 25 not coming to Wii U (one of the biggest franchises on Earth)
Battlefield 4 Skipping Wii U
Problems with Wii U OS/firmware updates
Iwata discussing what is wrong with the Wii U including 'game delays, understaffing, etc'
A topic discussing the completely empty Japanese Wii U release schedule
A topic where Nintendo themselves discusses Wii U's complete lack of momentum and other problems
Deep Silver: No Wii U titles from us (Saints Row/Dead Island/etc)
CNet: Nintendo's Big Problem
The Wii U won't be getting Unreal Engine 4
Here is a thread showing video evidence of the inhumanely atrocious Wii U OS and its loading speeds (this is finally being worked on, thankfully though)
February 2013 NPD
January 2013 NPD
March 2013 NPD

The list can literally go on and on, with developers expressing dismay at the development environment and Nintendo's help, with the system sales being literally unprecedentedly bad for a major console release - even on par or worse than fuckin' Vita, on the wideworld level.

There is no moratorium on negative news, contrary to crybaby belief. Negative conversation is allowed in equal order as positive, because that's the only possible nature of a conversation that is fair. The only reason why it seems so irritatingly loud to you is because Nintendo put themselves in this position. They have cocked up the Wii U release so horrendously that there is virtually nothing else to discuss when the topic of its current status comes up other than how bad it is.

Would you like to make an alternative argument? Perhaps drop how Wii U is not in exactly the position a majority on neoGAF (and the world) think it is? Or do you just want to kick and grit your teeth at some perceived threat, even though the words being expressed seem be a 100% valid opinion with hard facts on its side?

And no, it's not really comparable to reactions to MS rumors. The rumors over Durango have mostly been just that- rumors. Secondly, people have a very particular love/hate relationship with Nintendo, probably because they've had such a long standing and pervasive influence on the industry, and had multiple generations that challenged people's expectations. That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really make the carnival of stupid surrounding Nintendo threads these days any less obnoxious. The only remotely comparable example I can think of was when the PS3 stumbled a bit out of the gate after Sony rode high for 2 generations.

There is always a carnival of stupid that follows every gaming topic, because there will always be fanboys - which I am not entirely sure you are in a position to be casting stones in that case - and yet... the general extremely negative outlook on Wii U is simply the accurate representation of where the industry is at at the moment.

So, I say again: Blame Nintendo.

 

[Jonm1010]

I think they launched about 6 months too early, but had already committed to retailers and their shareholders and it was too late to back out. They didn't have mature development tools ready until right before launch, the OS was missing features and partially baked, and they were behind schedule on games.

In the CVG article about 3D Mario being released in October, it points out that Iwata has been reluctant to spend more money advertising and pushing the Wii U until they get the OS fixed and have games ready to go. I think it points to a soft re-launch in the second half of the year heading into the holidays, likely starting at E3.

I think this is their best move right now. Save their resources for a push going into the holidays. Hopefully have out several marquee games before the other consoles release all the while pushing through a marketing blitz starting slowly after E3 and then intensifying onward to Christmas to help compete against the inevitable onslaught of Sony and Microsofts marketing.

I just hope they have the games in wait to pull it off. I think it'll take more then just 3D Mario this go round. Maybe Retro's game could make the release? Coupled with the Wind Waker remake? A new Mario Kart or smash brothers or something along those lines? Perhaps even a price drop if possible?

They need to do something that's for sure because the console is becoming poison in the press and outside of frustrated wiiU owners consumers seem to have largely either dismissed the console or have forgotten about it.



EDIT: Damn Amirox!! Incredible post. Perfectly explains both the negative atmosphere around Nintendo the why, the how and puts it nicely into historical perspective comparing it to GAFs reaction in other instances. Better then I've seen done before. Should be re-posted every time things get heated in Nintendo threads.

 

[Schnozberry]

I think this is their best move right now. Save their resources for a push going into the holidays. Hopefully have out several marquee games before the other consoles release all the while pushing through a marketing blitz starting slowly after E3 and then intensifying onward to Christmas to help compete against the inevitable onslaught of Sony and Microsofts marketing.

I just hope they have the games in wait to pull it off. I think it'll take more then just 3D Mario this go round. Maybe Retro's game could make the release? Coupled with the Wind Waker remake? A new Mario Kart or smash brothers or something along those lines? Perhaps even a price drop if possible?

They need to do something that's for sure because the console is becoming poison in the press and outside of frustrated wiiU owners consumers seem to have largely either dismissed the console or have forgotten about it.

Well, it's pretty obvious Nintendo is embarrassed by their failures with it on some level, especially now that it's pretty much out in the open that they have intentionally not advertised it and are gathering their forces for a second half push after they can patch some of the glaring deficiencies with the OS.

The only way the system survives in the west is if they can make as many third party partnerships as they can reasonably afford, and get the thing down to a mass market price ASAP. EA appears to be a lost cause, since they have set a hard cap on how much they are willing to spend per year on Next Gen development, and aren't anticipating a dime of it going towards getting Frostbite 3 running on Wii U.

More Nintendo titles will definitely help with the installed base, and in my eyes they really only need a couple to get it kickstarted. They need 3D Mario, Mario Kart, and a Pokémon Stadium game that is NFC capable so it can be coupled with a trading card game.

 

[boyshine]

"My kids use it for Skylanders Giants, that's the only relation I have to it"

Sounds like a developer that's not interested in learning the platform at all, compare to the comments from Criterion:

Before the hardware was released, our approach was very much about delivering an enhanced version of Most Wanted that focused on single-player in the front room and multiplayer through the online experience," remembers Criterion producer Rob O'Farrell.

"Once the Wii U was out and we spent time playing the software in the office and with our families at home, it really changed our thought process and approach to the platform. With games like Nintendo Land and New Super Mario Bros. U, Nintendo delivered a new way of playing together in the same room. A great part of that was having one person in full control of the game, with another watching and occasionally helping them progress. With this in mind, the Co-Driver mode became our focus, so we could bring social play into the living room on Most Wanted, but with a Nintendo feel. It couldn't be hidden away, it had be easy to understand what to do and have that feel of Nintendo quality on the platform."

Two completely different mentalities. One is open minded, looking for ways to make the best game possible - the other one is closed off, letting personal preferences get in the way of creative and positive thinking. And even if that's true or not, it's how they present themselves in the media, so their real attitude towards the platform is probably even worse.

 

[Amir0x]

Perhaps, and despite my large criticisms I want Nintendo to succeed. I just feel like once things get into full swing with 720/ps4 and all their new bells and whistles and Sonys big push for indies that the eshop will be left on the margins much like the rest of console is.

Which is unfortunate if it does because indies is the one area I think Nintendo is getting things right - at least from what I can tell.

I think most people want Nintendo to succeed. Nintendo is my favorite developer (although it's hard to remain enthusiastic with the level of franchise whoring they do), and so them disappearing would be a complete tragedy. Microsoft, for example, could evaporate and the net value of its disappearance from the industry would be near on zero for all their first party catalog is really worth.

But Nintendo is also the one to make the most painfully obvious mistakes, and to gank consumers when it suits them, and so harsh criticism is often necessary to illustrate the state of Nintendo.

I think this is their best move right now. Save their resources for a push going into the holidays. Hopefully have out several marquee games before the other consoles release all the while pushing through a marketing blitz starting slowly after E3 and then intensifying onward to Christmas to help compete against the inevitable onslaught of Sony and Microsofts marketing.

I just hope they have the games in wait to pull it off. I think it'll take more then just 3D Mario this go round. Maybe Retro's game could make the release? Coupled with the Wind Waker remake? A new Mario Kart or smash brothers or something along those lines? Perhaps even a price drop if possible?

They need to do something that's for sure because the console is becoming poison in the press and outside of frustrated wiiU owners consumers seem to have largely either dismissed the console or have forgotten about it.

I think, like you, that what Nintendo needs is bold new IPs - in both hardcore and *cringe* casual - with huge marketing pushes and bold ideas. They can't simply rest on Mario, Link, Samus and Donkey Kong all day long... they have to introduce worlds, characters and IPs that are completely fresh and yet have development budgets as big as Zelda or a Mario Galaxy. That have marketing budgets on par with Wii Sports or Brain Age. Celebrities pimping products. Social media creating persistent hype.

Nintendo thinks they can skip a step if they just keep adding Mario to titles, and all that is going to do is create a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein the same 20~30 million people buy your consoles and nobody else at all. Without an expansive and exclusive list of videogame titles, a system slowly starts losing its luster. The market has already spoken to the power of the Wii U pad - since it's simply an extension of the two screen concept, more or less - so it is the games that are going to make the system sing. They need more than what everyone always expects.

EDIT: Damn Amirox!! Incredible post. Perfectly explains both the negative atmosphere around Nintendo the why, the how and puts it nicely into historical perspective comparing it to GAFs reaction in other instances. Better then I've seen done before. Should be re-posted every time things get heated in Nintendo threads.

Thanks. I did my best to illustrate why the negativity seems at least at the surface to be 'building on each other'. That's because as you and I know, this news is all swirling together and connecting into one cohesive narrative... and it is a dire story indeed.

 

[Angel Whispers]

Most of this has nothing to do with the Wii/WiiU. DS games are irrelevant.
And then there's weird arbitrary comparisons between unrelated franchises on different consoles. I mean RE4 vs Bayonetta? Really? Why not compare RE4 wii vs RE5?

If if was so easy for 3rd parties to sell games on Nintendo's home consoles, you'd think they would not disregard them, no? Unless they have some kind of random anti-Nintendo agenda or something.

It's rather you who misses the point. My point was that there was a market for multiple genres, and that Nintendo fans have bought their games. Simply put, the excuses are BS.

It's no easier on other platforms, as every title ever released is a risk, regardless of platform. There is plenty of proof of that. That's business.

The RE4: Wii Edition VS Bayonetta was actually very relevant. When asked on Twitter why Platinum Games were making games for the Wii U, Hideki Kamiya replied with the Quote of the 8th Generation - "Because it is there". If only the rest adopted that approach. Not only Bayonetta 2, but the Wonderful 101, too. It's telling that they are prepared to take the risks that major houses won't. The only games they had made on Nintendo consoles were Madworld and Infinite Space, but they would support "because it is there". Capcom had nothing in Europe or North America at launch, but you could have Monster Hunter 3 bundles in Japan, then later in North America. Ubisoft had five other games in addition to their Zombi U bundle. Nobody expects as many as that, but Capcom could've had something more (RE and Street Fighter series have done well on Nintendo consoles, while there was an opportunity to bring the most recent Devil May Cry to a new audience). Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate topped the Wii U charts. RE: Revelations is coming... More ports. No Remember Me, No Lost Planet 3. No Mega Man (which has done well on Nintendo consoles), all ports.

You would think a game that sold over 2 million copies would've meant something more on the table at launch, let alone a further entry in the series?

You would think that having million-sellers on a platform means that there is potential for growth?

You would think that a series which has a history of performing worse on Microsoft consoles (Soul Calibur) than Nintendo ones would mean that they would take the Nintendo path more often?

Do I have to repeat that NONE of the games have been released on a level playing field, or that some people had bitten elsewhere because they could get said ports cheaper? These are the decisions that people are making on the ground - It's difficult for many people at the moment.

But Yeah, it's easier to antagonise and dismiss. I've noticed that tone in some of your responses to my posts. As You Were.

 

[Vampirolol]

Amir0x... please understand.

No, seriously, great posts.

 

[shinra-bansho]

This persecution complex is always funny.

It's getting borderline "Leave Britney alone!" ridiculous.

HD gfx.

No one seemed to want to answer, but yes, it was a somewhat rhetorical question.

Are you seriously equating Nintendo's first-party with Sony's or Microsoft's? Halo and Gran Turismo can't hold a candle to Nintendo first-party sales; Nintendo's best-selling games of the previous generation sold more than iterations of a Call of Duty + Gran Turismo combined. Not to mention, Nintendo has multiple franchises that sell more than either GT or Halo.

It has been openly hinted at before that third-parties do not want to compete with Nintendo. One can't really blame them.

No, I'm saying that a large selling franchise in a particular genre or aimed at a particular audience does not deter third parties from also targeting that audience. Third parties competed on the Wii for the audience that Nintendo built. SEGA put Sonic exclusives on it, Rayman Origins sold best on it and Ubisoft build an entire franchise around Just Dancing on it. EA Sports Active was a moderate success. Publishers put sports, dance, casual, fitness, party games on the system where Nintendo cultivated an audience for sports, dance, casual, fitness and party games.

Just as they put titles like Just Cause on PlayStation and XBOX platforms, where Sony and Microsoft have created an ecosystem and audience aligned with such games.

 

[StevieP]

It's getting borderline "Leave Britney alone!" ridiculous.No one seemed to want to answer, but yes, it was a somewhat rhetorical question.No, I'm saying that a large selling franchise in a particular genre or aimed at a particular audience does not deter third parties from also targeting that audience. Third parties competed on the Wii for the audience that Nintendo built. SEGA put Sonic exclusives on it, Rayman Origins sold best on it and Ubisoft build an entire franchise around Just Dancing on it. EA Sports Active was a moderate success. Publishers put sports, dance, casual, fitness, party games on the system where Nintendo cultivated an audience for sports, dance, casual, fitness and party games.

Are you insinuating that the only audience on the Wii was for Casual fitness/sports/party games?

 

[Amir0x]

The RE4: Wii Edition VS Bayonetta was actually very relevant. When asked on Twitter why Platinum Games were making games for the Wii U, Hideki Kamiya replied with the Quote of the 8th Generation - "Because it is there". If only the rest adopted that approach.

"If only the rest adopted that approach... the industry would crash faster than a hijacked plane on 9/11."

Gaming isn't really a charity for developers and publishers, I hope you do realize. While I want Bayonetta and Wonderful 101, they are going to implode harder than the combined might of a thousand dying suns... because the market simply isn't there, and those are not the type of games that will create them either.

Nintendo could have done a trillion things to make the Wii U a more attractive platform, but instead they didn't. Instead they have a similar situation as they did with Wii - there is a PS4, a PC and an Xbox 720 where porting games between each other is easy as pie, and then there's a Wii u where when you want to port your cross gen titles you have to make all sorts of compromises. Instead, they priced their platform out of consumers hands because of an overly expensive controller that, as it turns out, the market really didn't give a shit about because it's not really that particularly novel or innovative. A controller which, by the way, you have to actually call Nintendo for if you want a replacement (which is also prohibitively expensive). A controller which for the most part seems to be destined for one player only, with two or more players coming at the feet of a secondary controller that doesn't even come packed in with the system.

If Nintendo cared, they would have been spending their infinite war chest on expanding development teams, being aggressive with pricing or game release schedule, perhaps partnering with third parties to make compelling big exclusives. Instead, they were stingy with their investments (you have to spend money to make money) and you have Iwata magically complaining about how they were understaffed and are having trouble with next-gen development. Well, derp, congratulations Iwata... you just demonstrated you didn't know how to run a business in this case! Instead, you have one of the most barren post-launch release lists ever in console system history. Instead, you have third parties all but running full speed away from Nintendo - except for Lego City devs and Platinum Games, bless their hearts.

Nintendo genuinely has no one to blame but themselves. As we see with 3DS, they ain't incapable of making viable systems that are also great, but that console essentially has the market to itself these days. And they even cocked up that system launched and were forced to take it on the chin only mere months after it released.

So, blame Nintendo or God... as the saying goes.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Are you insinuating that the only audience on the Wii was for Casual fitness/sports/party games?

No, I'm saying that that was the audience that the system was positioned to target by Nintendo. Expanded audience demographics. And that was the target audience on the system that was ultimately the most lucrative for third parties.

Was there a demographic of people who owned the Wii that also aligned to the target market for a game like Dragon Age? Sure. Was it worthwhile to pursue. No.

Did whatever market that existed for titles like Resident Evil migrate to platforms where games like Resident Evil were released. I think so. Especially as HDTV became more pervasive.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Are you insinuating that the only audience on the Wii was for Casual fitness/sports/party games?

For the most part.

 

[StevieP]

No, I'm saying that that was the audience that the system was positioned to target by Nintendo. Expanded audience demographics. And that was the target audience on the system that was ultimately the most lucrative for third parties.

Was there a demographic of people who owned the Wii that also aligned to the target market for a game like Dragon Age? Sure. Was it worthwhile to pursue. No.

Did whatever market that existed for titles like Resident Evil migrate to platforms where games like Resident Evil were released. I think so. Especially as HDTV became more pervasive.

I recall RE4 being a million seller to an early/hungry userbase. Capcom followed it up with multiple rail shooters. Anyway, the narrative that the Wii only sold to casuals has to be incorrect with a tie ratio of 9, which is extremely comparable to both other platforms that generation. And if you've looked at the Nintendo financials (as I'm sure you have) they are obviously not all Nintendo software.

For the most part.

Man those casuals and seniors who only played Wii Sports and Just Dance and then left it in their closets to collect dust sure bought a lot of games (900 million)

 

[Xun]

More negative Nintendo is doomed threads, great.

I'm strangely confident Nintendo will deliver, and deliver hard.

 

[Amir0x]

More negative Nintendo is doomed threads, great.

I'm strangely confident Nintendo will deliver, and deliver hard.

A post complaining about a topic in which you then proceed to yourself post in, great.

At least if you're going to complain provide a counter argument that has some value and depth to it

 

[Xun]

A post complaining about a topic in which you then proceed to yourself post in, great.

At least if you're going to complain provide a counter argument that has some value and depth to it

It's late man, and I'm tired.

I just feel Nintendo have been preparing for the Wii U for a while, despite their current lacklustre support.

 

[Amir0x]

It's late man, and I'm tired.

Fine I'll pretend to be you

<Xun> 'Listen, think about it guys. 3DS had a really rough start - so rough, in fact, that they had to do an emergency price cut and ambassador program. Everyone was saying 3DS might be finally the system that shows Nintendo is losing their grip. And then, they started taking seriously their problem... they announced a plethora of appealing cross generational appeal titles that spanned the wide range of genres. They were aggressive with their release dates. Aggressive with pricing again. They were aggressive with their renewed marketing and the 3DS XL. And lo' and behold, while it'll never surpass what DS achieved in my view, it's on its way to being a highly successful platform at the worldwide level.

So I have enough faith in Nintendo to not jump to the conclusion that it's already too late to turn things around - I believe they still have time and I believe post-E3, we'll all be wondering why we were quite THIS negative on them that entire time. Sure, they've messed up a lot of things, but I believe they will be taking aggressive steps similar to what they did on 3DS and I believe it will end up being equally as successful here. Just my opinion, but come at me bros.'

______________________________________________________________________________________________


______________________________________________________________________________________________


<Amir0x> Well, that's a nice well thought out position, but where I'd disagree in the specifics is in quite how comparable the Wii U is to 3DS. Unlike Wii U, the 3DS didn't really have any viable competitors in the pipeline... Vita was also priced out of the gaming dedicated handheld market, and the 3DS was able to turn things around fast enough to make any come over impossible. And they cut them off at the knees with Monster Hunter. But with Wii U, there is no franchise Nintendo can buy to cut Sony or Microsoft off at the knees... instead, as it appears now, it is the Wii U losing major franchises at the moment (see: Madden, Battlefield). Nintendo already came to the market losing a few pennies on every Wii U sold; if they cut the price they'll be hurting even more and they don't need more bottom line problems. Wii U is also doing far worse by comparison than the 3DS ever was.

So while it is true I would say there is no way to be 100% sure that it is too late to turn things around, I would say with some certitude that things are quite different than they were with 3DS and that the current status of the market and Nintendo suggests the probability is low that they will be able to at least achieve #1 market place status once the Durango and Ps4 were on the market for long enough


P.S.

Spoiler

How'd I do as you?

 

[Technosteve]

Nintendo are repeating what happened during Nintendo 64, GameCube, and Wii. Nintendo Hardware to Play Nintendo Software. At Least on the 3DS they have japanese 3rd parties to fill in the gaps.

 

[QaaQer]

I recall RE4 being a million seller to an early/hungry userbase. Capcom followed it up with multiple rail shooters. Anyway, the narrative that the Wii only sold to casuals has to be incorrect with a tie ratio of 9, which is extremely comparable to both other platforms that generation. And if you've looked at the Nintendo financials (as I'm sure you have) they are obviously not all Nintendo software.



Man those casuals and seniors who only played Wii Sports and Just Dance and then left it in their closets to collect dust sure bought a lot of games (900 million)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

Mostly nintendo games, party games, + dance/fitness games. Just because someone is casual, doesn't mean they wont buy 9 games for a system. And only 10 of the top 100 games had "mario" in the title.

 

[Flightmare]

Fine I'll pretend to be you

<Xun> 'Listen, think about it guys. 3DS had a really rough start - so rough, in fact, that they had to do an emergency price cut and ambassador program. Everyone was saying 3DS might be finally the system that shows Nintendo is losing their grip. And then, they started taking seriously their problem... they announced a plethora of appealing cross generational appeal titles that spanned the wide range of genres. They were aggressive with their release dates. Aggressive with pricing again. They were aggressive with their renewed marketing and the 3DS XL. And lo' and behold, while it'll never surpass what DS achieved in my view, it's on its way to being a highly successful platform at the worldwide level.

So I have enough faith in Nintendo to not jump to the conclusion that it's already too late to turn things around - I believe they still have time and I believe post-E3, we'll all be wondering why we were quite THIS negative on them that entire time. Sure, they've messed up a lot of things, but I believe they will be taking aggressive steps similar to what they did on 3DS and I believe it will end up being equally as successful here. Just my opinion, but come at me bros.'

______________________________________________________________________________________________


______________________________________________________________________________________________


<Amir0x> Well, that's a nice well thought out position, but where I'd disagree in the specifics is in quite how comparable the Wii U is to 3DS. Unlike Wii U, the 3DS didn't really have any viable competitors in the pipeline... Vita was also priced out of the gaming dedicated handheld market, and the 3DS was able to turn things around fast enough to make any come over impossible. And they cut them off at the knees with Monster Hunter. But with Wii U, there is no franchise Nintendo can buy to cut Sony or Microsoft off at the knees... instead, as it appears now, it is the Wii U losing major franchises at the moment (see: Madden, Battlefield). Nintendo already came to the market losing a few pennies on every Wii U sold; if they cut the price they'll be hurting even more and they don't need more bottom line problems. Wii U is also doing far worse by comparison than the 3DS ever was.

So while it is true I would say there is no way to be 100% sure that it is too late to turn things around, I would say with some certitude that things are quite different than they were with 3DS and that the current status of the market and Nintendo suggests the probability is low that they will be able to at least achieve #1 market place status once the Durango and Ps4 were on the market for long enough


P.S.

Spoiler

How'd I do as you?

If you keep this going you can probably keep this thread alive all by yourself

 

[shinra-bansho]

I recall RE4 being a million seller to an early/hungry userbase. Capcom followed it up with multiple rail shooters. Anyway, the narrative that the Wii only sold to casuals has to be incorrect with a tie ratio of 9, which is extremely comparable to both other platforms that generation. And if you've looked at the Nintendo financials (as I'm sure you have) they are obviously not all Nintendo software.

Setting aside that I don't know how accurate calculating tie ratio from software shipments really is; I'm not using the word casual to describe the frequency with which a person buys games. A tie ratio doesn't necessarily provide elaboration on the titles actually selling and who they're selling too. And again, those audiences were the ones that Nintendo positioned the system to, with the price, gimmick/features, appearance, advertising, and first-party software output - I don't think anyone can deny that with a straight face - so it should be unsurprising that such titles found success.

But again, I'm not saying there wasn't any audience amongst the Wii owner-base, at least initially, for games like Resident Evil.

The Wii as hardware, however, didn't provide a straightforward situation for multiplatform development alongside the HD systems. This alongside heavy investment in HD development, that meant that they had to push those systems to success. So they "abandoned" the Wii.

With increased pervasiveness of HD television, price reduction on HD systems and the vast majority of games targeted at the traditional target demographics appearing on the HD systems; I would hazard to assume that any audience that was on the Wii for such titles would have migrated to an HD system.

This all deviating from the actual point of the initial post that you quoted: that third-parties are not afraid of others' successes in building an audience, and will rather react and try and capitalize on that audience themselves.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

.

Amir0x is killin' it. I just wanted to pop in and say awesome posts.

 

[googleplex]

The opposite of what you want to be hearing from the development community...

The crazy thing is Nintendo fans will still put the blame squarely on the shoulders of third party developers for the lack of third party games on the WiiU just like they did for the Wii.

 

[googleplex]

"If only the rest adopted that approach... the industry would crash faster than a hijacked plane on 9/11."

Gaming isn't really a charity for developers and publishers, I hope you do realize. While I want Bayonetta and Wonderful 101, they are going to implode harder than the combined might of a thousand dying suns... because the market simply isn't there, and those are not the type of games that will create them either.

Nintendo could have done a trillion things to make the Wii U a more attractive platform, but instead they didn't. Instead they have a similar situation as they did with Wii - there is a PS4, a PC and an Xbox 720 where porting games between each other is easy as pie, and then there's a Wii u where when you want to port your cross gen titles you have to make all sorts of compromises. Instead, they priced their platform out of consumers hands because of an overly expensive controller that, as it turns out, the market really didn't give a shit about because it's not really that particularly novel or innovative. A controller which, by the way, you have to actually call Nintendo for if you want a replacement (which is also prohibitively expensive). A controller which for the most part seems to be destined for one player only, with two or more players coming at the feet of a secondary controller that doesn't even come packed in with the system.

If Nintendo cared, they would have been spending their infinite war chest on expanding development teams, being aggressive with pricing or game release schedule, perhaps partnering with third parties to make compelling big exclusives. Instead, they were stingy with their investments (you have to spend money to make money) and you have Iwata magically complaining about how they were understaffed and are having trouble with next-gen development. Well, derp, congratulations Iwata... you just demonstrated you didn't know how to run a business in this case! Instead, you have one of the most barren post-launch release lists ever in console system history. Instead, you have third parties all but running full speed away from Nintendo - except for Lego City devs and Platinum Games, bless their hearts.

Nintendo genuinely has no one to blame but themselves. As we see with 3DS, they ain't incapable of making viable systems that are also great, but that console essentially has the market to itself these days. And they even cocked up that system launched and were forced to take it on the chin only mere months after it released.

So, blame Nintendo or God... as the saying goes.

Damn Amir0x ice cold... But completely true.

 

[metalslimer]

Amirox killing it in here. Perfectly encapsulates how I, and I'm sure many other people feel. Nintendo is my favorite developer, so yes I will be as harsh as possible because the level of talent overall in my opinion has the capability of being far above the rest of the industry, so when they make horrendous mistakes and then make a bunch of excuses I'm not going to give them a break until they fix these mistakes or at least look like they have plan and aren't running around like cuccos.

If Nintendo cared, they would have been spending their infinite war chest on expanding development teams, being aggressive with pricing or game release schedule, perhaps partnering with third parties to make compelling big exclusives. Instead, they were stingy with their investments (you have to spend money to make money) and you have Iwata magically complaining about how they were understaffed and are having trouble with next-gen development. Well, derp, congratulations Iwata... you just demonstrated you didn't know how to run a business in this case! Instead, you have one of the most barren post-launch release lists ever in console system history. Instead, you have third parties all but running full speed away from Nintendo - except for Lego City devs and Platinum Games, bless their hearts.

So frustrating. And Bayonetta and W101's incoming supernova bombs sadden me =( Hopefully by some miracle they do well

 

[RoboPlato]

Nintendo being hard for devs to reach and not fully disclosing detailed specs and documentation to developers is absolutely terrible in this day and age. No wonder no one wants to work with them any more. Making devs jump through hoops to work on your platform when it has a small install base is not a good move.

And damn, I normally don't agree with Amir0x but he killed it with that post. Spot on. I used to be a Nintendo loyalist before this gen but their magic has faded in recent years and they need to be willing to modernize and adapt to the market.

 

[Schnozberry]

<Amir0x> Well, that's a nice well thought out position, but where I'd disagree in the specifics is in quite how comparable the Wii U is to 3DS. Unlike Wii U, the 3DS didn't really have any viable competitors in the pipeline... Vita was also priced out of the gaming dedicated handheld market, and the 3DS was able to turn things around fast enough to make any come over impossible. And they cut them off at the knees with Monster Hunter. But with Wii U, there is no franchise Nintendo can buy to cut Sony or Microsoft off at the knees... instead, as it appears now, it is the Wii U losing major franchises at the moment (see: Madden, Battlefield). Nintendo already came to the market losing a few pennies on every Wii U sold; if they cut the price they'll be hurting even more and they don't need more bottom line problems. Wii U is also doing far worse by comparison than the 3DS ever was.

So while it is true I would say there is no way to be 100% sure that it is too late to turn things around, I would say with some certitude that things are quite different than they were with 3DS and that the current status of the market and Nintendo suggests the probability is low that they will be able to at least achieve #1 market place status once the Durango and Ps4 were on the market for long enough


P.S.

Spoiler

How'd I do as you?

I'm curious what will play out if the PS4 and Next Xbox are both $500. Don't you think they risk pricing themselves out of the current console market? Sony's $600 lead balloon lost them billions and that was prior to a worldwide recession. Now today in 2013, we still haven't recovered all those jobs, gas and food are more expensive worldwide than they have ever been, and IMO we are going to run up against entertainment hardware that's is priced well above a mass market price. I'm not saying there isn't a market for them, clearly there is among early adopters, but I think that market is even smaller than it was in 2005 and 2006. The Wii U has it's own unique set of problems, but I think there will be challenges for PS4 and Durango to overcome too. Time will tell.

I don't think the Vita and 3DS comparison is a totally broken analogy, at least in terms of price.

 

[Mileena]

Are you insinuating that the only audience on the Wii was for Casual fitness/sports/party games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

Dance, Dance, Michael Jackson (dance?), Guitar Hero, Epic Mickey, Monster Hunter (I see there was some Wii owners with good taste) and RE4 port. So yes, outside a few titles Wii owners bought Nintendo games and casual fitness/sports/party games.

 

[The Boat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

Dance, Dance, Michael Jackson (dance?), Guitar Hero, Epic Mickey, Monster Hunter (I see there was some Wii owners with good taste) and RE4 port. So yes, outside a few titles Wii owners bought Nintendo games and casual fitness/sports/party games.

What a unique way of selecting the titles that serve your point, bravo.

 

[Jonm1010]

I think most people want Nintendo to succeed. Nintendo is my favorite developer (although it's hard to remain enthusiastic with the level of franchise whoring they do), and so them disappearing would be a complete tragedy. Microsoft, for example, could evaporate and the net value of its disappearance from the industry would be near on zero for all their first party catalog is really worth.

But Nintendo is also the one to make the most painfully obvious mistakes, and to gank consumers when it suits them, and so harsh criticism is often necessary to illustrate the state of Nintendo.



I think, like you, that what Nintendo needs is bold new IPs - in both hardcore and *cringe* casual - with huge marketing pushes and bold ideas. They can't simply rest on Mario, Link, Samus and Donkey Kong all day long... they have to introduce worlds, characters and IPs that are completely fresh and yet have development budgets as big as Zelda or a Mario Galaxy. That have marketing budgets on par with Wii Sports or Brain Age. Celebrities pimping products. Social media creating persistent hype.

Nintendo thinks they can skip a step if they just keep adding Mario to titles, and all that is going to do is create a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein the same 20~30 million people buy your consoles and nobody else at all. Without an expansive and exclusive list of videogame titles, a system slowly starts losing its luster. The market has already spoken to the power of the Wii U pad - since it's simply an extension of the two screen concept, more or less - so it is the games that are going to make the system sing. They need more than what everyone always expects.



Thanks. I did my best to illustrate why the negativity seems at least at the surface to be 'building on each other'. That's because as you and I know, this news is all swirling together and connecting into one cohesive narrative... and it is a dire story indeed.

And its weird because what you say about Nintendo needing to branch out and reach other markets is something they aren't completely foreign to

I mean go back to the gamecube, SNES and N64 with Goldeneye(heck Nintendo basically birthed - or at least greatly elevated- the console FPS and multiplayer genre), Perfect Dark, Rogue Squadron, Shadows of the Empire, Conkers Bad fur day, Resident Evil 4, Eternal Darkness, killer instinct, 1080 snowboarding, baseball and basketball games, and a slew of Nintendo published and ported games during the SNES period that fed into wildly different markets

Now in proper context those examples are minor outliers in what is otherwise a library almost exclusively devoted to a similar type of consumer- Young, family oriented or older already converted Nintendo fans.


And then once you get to wii almost all Nintendo published software caters to that particular consumer and where they did create new ip's: wii sports, wii fit, wii everything. It's almost exclusively catered to that platform, control scheme and ultra casual consumers. The problem I see with that being that the wiiU isn't a casual centric device and most of those games aren't going to translate well due to them revolving around the nunchuck and a casual demographic. So now what do they have this gen? Well outside Bayonetta and Xenoblade its just the same franchises they have had for decades. It will attract that niche but will people stay for anything else at this point?

I feel Nintendo has always been Nintendo. Nintendo is family orientated at its core and has built a high quality brand that is almost universally recognizable while still housing some other big name franchises and games that catered to multiple other demographics. But slowly over time they have narrowed their focus and lost sight of attracting that demographic and even now as they talk about re-capturing third parties and catering to the hardcore I have to ask if their crazy thinking that just offering up Mario, Zelda, Metroid, smash brothers, pokemon and Mario kart is gonna achieve any of that?

 

[lwilliams3]

Well, either way this goes, one thing that we can agree with is that they definitely got Nintendo's attention now.

 

[googleplex]

Nintendo being hard for devs to reach and not fully disclosing detailed specs and documentation to developers is absolutely terrible in this day and age. No wonder no one wants to work with them any more. Making devs jump through hoops to work on your platform when it has a small install base is not a good move.

And damn, I normally don't agree with Amir0x but he killed it with that post. Spot on. I used to be a Nintendo loyalist before this gen but their magic has faded in recent years and they need to be willing to modernize and adapt to the market.

A hard lesson that Sony had to learn.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

A hard lesson that Sony had to learn.

Well, Nintendo hasn't learned in the three previous generations and doesn't seem to have learned for this gen either. Also, at least when Sony wasn't listening to developers they were still selling quite well (and yes, the PS3 has sold quite well, all things being considered). Nintendo didn't sell well with the N64, GC, and now with the Wii U. The Wii was a fluke and it's quite clear to most folks that the very audience that sent the Wii into the heavens has abandoned Nintendo just like Nintendo abandoned the Wii owners.

 

[Mileena]

What a unique way of selecting the titles that serve your point, bravo.

You mean going down the list and skipping anything done by Nintendo? Yes, we know Nintendo fans buy Nintendo games.

 

[Jonm1010]

Well, Nintendo hasn't learned in the three previous generations and doesn't seem to have learned for this gen either. Also, at least when Sony wasn't listening to developers they were still selling quite well (and yes, the PS3 has sold quite well, all things being considered). Nintendo didn't sell well with the N64, GC, and now with the Wii U. The Wii was a fluke and it's quite clear to most folks that the very audience that sent the Wii into the heavens has abandoned Nintendo just like Nintendo abandoned the Wii owners.

Bingo.

But if there is one thing Nintendo is its late to the party. Rarely do they embrace something until they are dragged kicking and screaming into supporting it - Disc formats, Mature rated titles, DVD's, online gaming on and on. Heck even when they do finally acknowledge it they tend to do some weird take on it that makes most people raise an eyebrow and shake their head.