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[Quotient]

A country will no political clout calls Israel a terrorist state. You folks don't see the issue here and neither do the Palestinians. In the last 60 or so years of this conflict, Israel has for the most part had international support and more importantly support from the Western Powers - especially the USA. This support is not going away. There has to be a time when folks realize how alone the Palestinians are. Even Arab states who have been vehemently anti-Israeli are now siding with Israel - Egypt and to my surprise Saudi Arabia and UAE*

After more than a 1000 deaths and some of the worst devastation Gaza has seen, we have Bolivia, a country who has some terrible human rights record itself speaking up. A few other countries have spoken up, but mostly it is a verbal scolding and once things cool down they go back to ignoring the situation.

It is a depressing world.


*http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/w...tates-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html

 

[Nikodemos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)

Fucking Balfour and his fucking idiocy.

 

[Liha]

Morales is a great leader.

 

[Razgreez]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

Ah that explains why the west bank, which is "controlled" by the israel-compliant fatah movement continues to see murderers, checkpoints, segregated walls and roads, occupation and settlements

 

[EatinOlives]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

And Israel pretends to do this via what is virtually an ethnic cleansing, outright murdering hundreds of completely innocent civilians that have nothing to do with Hamas.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Very good piece from The New Yorker.

 

[Toxi]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

If Hamas is gone, you can expect some seriously scary shit to rise up and fill the power vacuum. There's a reason the Israel government doesn't actually want to get rid of Hamas entirely.

Compared to shit like ISIS, Hamas are saints.

 

[TheRealTalker]

So... does this definition fit Israel?

Currently? yes it does

 

[Nikodemos]

Ah that explains why the west bank, which is "controlled" by the israel-compliant fatah movement continues to see murderers, checkpoints, segregated walls and roads, occupation and settlements

Story about a Cisjordan Christian family being harassed off the land they have owned for a century:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=839975

 

[smokeandmirrors]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

Where in the world did you get any of that from my post? And no, you are completely naive if you think Hamas leaving is going to suddenly solve the problem.

So as you have already asked others to do, please grow up and study the conflict before making ridiculous statements.

 

[Dopus]

A terrorist state perhaps. But certainly a rogue state.

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

There we have it again, Anti-Israel = Pro Hamas.

 

[JordanN]

Absolutely Israel is a terrorist state. It uses both violence and the threat of violence on a civilian population with the ideological goal of seizing the entire area as a "Jewish state". You could counter that they are only doing it to stop Hamas, but that ignores the fact that the West Bank is peaceful and those people are still subjected to violence and oppression on a daily basis.

That's not always true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Defensive_Shield

And then there were the 3 Israelis who were kidnapped and killed in Hebron, recently.
Of course, this doesn't excuse any actual Israeli crimes that happen there.

 

[Dopus]

That's not always true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Defensive_Shield

And then there were the 3 Israelis who were kidnapped and killed in Hebron.
Of course, this doesn't excuse any actual Israeli crimes that happen there.

But for the most part it is, not that it does nay favours for them. Israel is only concerned with more land stealing and settlement building. At least it makes it easier for them.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

While I despise the Israeli regime for their crimes against humanity, I can say the same thing about Hamas, they're also terrorists.

 

[Hackworth]

Their priorities are misaligned but they're not terrorists. You also can't ignore Israel is not claiming any deliberate civilian attacks. Whenever Hamas bombs a school or kidnap people, they claim they wanted that.

Yo, they've bombed like half of Gaza's hospitals and UN shelters (mostly while UN workers and civvies were in them, natch), as well as destroying Gaza's only power plant so as to shut down sewage processing, desalination & the ability of hospitals to reliably work on the injured.

They're doing all this to break the will of the people and cause them to overthrow Hamas, and they don't care how many innocents sicken and die to get the result they want. That's a terrorist attack, no matter how you dress it up.

 

[gutter_trash]

defense forces should stop talking in black & white. makes this topic tiresome

 

[Freezie KO]

usually occupiers throughout history rarely exterminate to genocide people who live on the land. Occupiers simply lol occupied.

Anyone who really knows history knows the difference between a ruling occupation weather Empirical or whatever.

The Romans did not mass exterminate the Hebrew in Israel. No, the Romans occupied the land and enforced their laws but the Romans did not terminate all human life on the land.

So what I said is technically correct, people lived there, the Israelites and Palestinians have live under Ottoman rule and British rule and now Israeli rule. Their are not alien, they live there.

The non-European Israelis also live there

But I have no idea what you're getting at. The history of the region is not one of peace and people living together. Occupations past and present caused conflict and displaced people. You think that the Romans, the Arabs, the Crusaders, etc etc etc just "occupied" the area with their governments and didn't move in?

Let's just take one example. Here's the Wikipedia article on Judea as a Roman Province. It's not a story of peaceful co-existence.. Because much of this history echoes today, I feel it is very disingenuous to say that "occupiers simply occupied" or that everyone just lived together.

Judea province was the scene of unrest at its founding during the Census of Quirinius and several wars were fought in its history, known as the Jewish-Roman wars. The Temple was destroyed in 70 as part of the Great Jewish Revolt resulting in the institution of the Fiscus Judaicus, and after Bar Kokhba's revolt (132–135 CE), the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province to Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, which certain scholars conclude was done in an attempt to remove the relationship of the Jewish people to the region

The region at the time was not a peaceful place. The Queen of Judaea Salome Alexandra had recently died and her sons, Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II, divided against each other in a civil war.

 

[Jonm1010]

That's not always true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Defensive_Shield

And then there were the 3 Israelis who were kidnapped and killed in Hebron, recently.
Of course, this doesn't excuse any actual Israeli crimes that happen there.

This is like saying Mexico should have 300 government workers arrested without due process, held indefinitely, then have their country bombed because some rogue Mexican government workers crossed the border and killed 3 Americans.

Israel used the kidnappings, without any shred of proof, to use as justification to arrest 300 Palestinians and go on the offensive in gaza.

 

[devilhawk]

No, that is genocide. Ethnic cleansing simply involves actions that result in the removal (not necessarily via killing them) of a population group from a certain location. Large-scale lethal violence may be employed, but is not a prerequisite (unlike genocide where lethal violence and the willingness to commit lethal violence, a.k.a. mens rea, is a prerequisite). Many instances of population transfers in the 20th century were de facto acts of ethnic cleansing. By destroying infrastructure and housing the Israeli government is attempting to force the Palestinians to emigrate from Gaza. This fits the 'technical' definition of ethnic cleansing.

Israel must be the worst ethnic cleansers ever as Gaza is increasing in population each year.

 

[Jonm1010]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

The conflict ends huh? Just like it did in the 90s under arrafat. Just like has happened in the West Bank? Oh wait, there is still an occupation, still a blockade, still settlements being built and still atrocities being committed.

You really need to take your own advice if you think Hamas is the root issue holding Israel and Palestine back from peace.

 

[BPoole]

Israel is just a terrorist state with a better propaganda department

 

[NullPointer]

Collective punishment of a population to influence and/or punish their political choices is the very definition of terrorism.

 

[Skyzard]

Israel is just a terrorist state with a better propaganda department

It's not that good.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ropean-terror-propaganda-tweets-30464051.html

It just has good banks.

 

[gutter_trash]

But I have no idea what you're getting at. The history of the region is not one of peace and people living together. Occupations past and present caused conflict and displaced people. You think that the Romans, the Arabs, the Crusaders, etc etc etc just "occupied" the area with their governments and didn't move in?

Let's just take one example. Here's the Wikipedia article on Judea as a Roman Province. It's not a story of peaceful co-existence.. Because much of this history echoes today, I feel it is very disingenuous to say that "occupiers simply occupied" or that everyone just lived together.

I did not say that they occupied the lands peacefully lol!!

they use military force

what I said to be clear is that the invading/ occupying force did not exterminate or genocide the existing population.

the occupying force would take control and force their laws onto the new land they are now ruling

I never said that invaders were peaceful hahahahah

 

[maharg]

Israel must be the worst ethnic cleansers ever as Gaza is increasing in population each year.

It's really the West Bank where something that can be called ethnic cleansing is happening. It doesn't really matter if the population is increasing, only that they're being pushed off land along sectarian or ethnic lines. And the livable area for Arabs in the West Bank has been shrinking due to Israel moving its citizens into their land. Note that this is unquestionably illegal in international law via the Fourth Geneva Convention.

As I said above, though, this post is wrong about Gaza because it seems to assume the Gazans have somewhere to go. They don't. They're penned in and can't leave and they're basically being shuffled around Gaza as Israel targets pretty much everything.

 

[Derekloffin]

Israel must be the worst ethnic cleansers ever as Gaza is increasing in population each year.

And Hamas is terrible at targeting civilians, they are almost 20:1 in favor of killing soldiers... but we both know they do target indiscriminately, it is just circumstance that makes them ineffective, and likewise circumstance may well be making IDF ineffective, if that is truly their goal. Myself, I have no idea what the IDF's goals are. They actions make almost no sense to me.

 

[Jonm1010]

The situation is actually both political and religious, so yeah.

I actually feel bad for Israeli people, having to deal with such a dehumanizing army/ government.

They can vote you know?

 

[Freezie KO]

I did not say that they occupied the lands peacefully lol!!

they use military force

what I said to be clear is that the invading/ occupying force did not exterminate or genocide the existing population.

the occupying force would take control and force their laws onto the new land they are now ruling

I never said that invaders were peaceful hahahahah

Oh, okay. I misunderstood this:

"Yeah Palestine is not country, but the people have lived there for a longtime weather it was the Brits or the Ottoman or whatever past occupiers there were like Mumluks, Caliphates, Byzantine, Crusaders, Romans, Greeks, blablablablalbalbal

people lived there including both Israelites and Palestinains

just live together, co-exist, peace, get along"

And since Israel isn't "exterminating" or committing "genocide," I didn't understand why you brought up the history as comparison.

--

They can vote you know?

Probably not the argument you want to make in favor of Palestinians!

 

[BeerSnob]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

Let me assure you as someone who has been the blunt instrument designed to crush out insurgencies, you can't "out kill " insurgents without obliterating their their people. You have to give the people what they need, to include basic rights and resources and make being a bad guy less attractive. Israel's only winning moves are actual genocide or a two state option and the two state option may no longer be an option.

 

[HK-47]

You actually believe Hamas is good? There are people over there that don't complain about them because they are afraid to die. They train people to hate Israel since childhood, creating an endless circle of hate. If Hamas is gone, the conflict ends.

Hey. None of that "you have to support Hamas if you don't support Israel" bullshit okay? It's fallacious and stupid

 

[televator]

So... does this definition fit Israel?

Like a pair of fancy tailored shoes.

 

[Codeblue]

So... does this definition fit Israel?

They certainly earned it.

 

[Fenderputty]

I've made it clear that them being muslims and arab are incidental, and your assertion that their faith plays a part in this is pretty damn stupid when many of the victims in Gaza are arab christians as well.

How can it not play a part? Even if the true motivation at the top is money (hasn't Israel sold weapons to Hamas??), religion and race are used as tools to garner support amongst the world. We have Christians donating money to Israel to aid in their expansion in order to expedite the rapture. They're donating money to aid in the ethnic cleansing going on and nobody in the US cares because they're Muslim.

 

[Nikodemos]

Israel's only winning moves are actual genocide or a two state option and the two state option may no longer be an option.

It never was. Unfortunately, the Arabs are fearful/hateful (sadly, for good reasons) of the Israelis and their potential future status as second-class citizens (though, bitterly ironic fact, second-class citizen status would be about a five-fold improvement over what they have now), while a considerably influential part of the Israelis fly into a blind rage at the idea of deleting the Jewish character of the Israeli state. Note how quickly and deftly any mention of a one-state solution has been shot down by government officials.

 

[TAJ]

What percentage of the people posting such historical maps do you think have taken even a single college level history course on Israel/Palestine?

That's awfully specific. (and reeks of appeal to authority)

 

[gutter_trash]

How can it not play a part? Even if the true motivation at the top is money (hasn't Israel sold weapons to Hamas??), religion and race are used as tools to garner support amongst the world. We have Christians donating money to Israel to aid in their expansion in order to expedite the rapture. They're donating money to aid in the ethnic cleansing going on and nobody in the US cares because they're Muslim.

the Christians donating money to Israel are Right leaning American Protestants and Evangelicals, not same sort of Christians in other parts of the world or same political leanings

 

[Frog-fu]

I applaud Bolivia.

It's the time countries take a stand against Israel. They've been doing as they please for far too long.

 

[Necrovex]

So... does this definition fit Israel?

To the very tee. Man, I didn't realize that fact until this very moment. Woah.

 

[remnant]

South America is the ONLY region which is saying something against the Israeli Atrocities. Wonder why that is.

Because it removes attention away from many of their shit economic policies and citizens trying to leave their countries?

 

[Zen]

Those aren't ethnicities. That's what you'd call a bloodthirsty invasion.

Israel has engaged in ethnic cleansing in the past this is undisputable.

As for your (ill informed) current day arguement

UN investigator: Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-guilty-ethnic-cleansing-apartheid-says-un-rapporteur-1441350

 

[YoungFa]

I think the viewing of this oscar-nominated documentary should be somewhat mandatory in this discussion: 5 Broken Cameras

 

[diaspora]

Israel has engaged in ethnic cleansing in the past this is undisputable.

As for your (ill informed) current day arguement

UN investigator: Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-guilty-ethnic-cleansing-apartheid-says-un-rapporteur-1441350

If you had been assed to read the article in question, it talks about the clash of the two nationalities, conflated into an ethnic dispute which is objectively is not.

 

[Spongebob]

Hopefully more leaders will come forward.

Remember folks, Obama supports terrorism.

 

[Skyzard]

If you had been assed to read the article in question, it talks about the clash of the two nationalities, conflated into an ethnic dispute which is objectively is not.

It talks about what Zen bolded.

 

[Zen]

If you had been assed to read the article in question, it talks about the clash of the two nationalities, conflated into an ethnic dispute which is objectively is not.

I don't think you understand that Ethnic cleansing can still occur when it is not a complete majority displacing another group that itself is also comprised of a complete majority. What happened after and during 1947 for instance, fits that description but is still ethnic cleansing. Just because there are Palestinians christians and some Arab Jews does not negate Ethnic Cleansing.

Please re-read the article as it addresses your claim.

 

[danwarb]

It is known but not often declared.

 

[Blazed]

A country will no political clout calls Israel a terrorist state. You folks don't see the issue here and neither do the Palestinians. In the last 60 or so years of this conflict, Israel has for the most part had international support and more importantly support from the Western Powers - especially the USA. This support is not going away. There has to be a time when folks realize how alone the Palestinians are. Even Arab states who have been vehemently anti-Israeli are now siding with Israel - Egypt and to my surprise Saudi Arabia and UAE*

After more than a 1000 deaths and some of the worst devastation Gaza has seen, we have Bolivia, a country who has some terrible human rights record itself speaking up. A few other countries have spoken up, but mostly it is a verbal scolding and once things cool down they go back to ignoring the situation.

It is a depressing world.


*http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/w...tates-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html

What the fuck? UAE doesn't even recognize israel as a state and now they're suddenly supporting israel? They send millions to aid palestine, and in that UN vote they voted yes where all of europe abstained while US decided to give a resounding no. Read a bit more than only the source that you cited before you make such an accusation, and if you manage to prove me wrong, i'll gladly apologize and take it back. Otherwise no one in UAE is a fan of israel's actions, neither the citizens nor the rulers. One quick google search would do the trick.

Here are two quick ones: https://7daysindubai.com/sheikh-khalifa-sends-25-million-aid-gaza-strip/

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183147#.U9l7nGOYv8Q

 

[RedHotChimiChanga]

Israel is terrorizing.

I would say that statement is correct. I don't know what good it will do unless United States steps in with the same statement.

It would also be very troubling if Russia and US get into this on opposite sides. I don't really want Nuclear tension again.

 

[Rubenov]

Evo Morales is a Chavez wannabe. He's said / done plenty of crazy things ("Death to Yankees", anyone?)

Don't think this will start a rally of countries coming forward to denounce Israel. Get a leader with some international credibility and then we're talking.

 

[Enron]

Not surprising coming from Evo Morales, who is Chavez Jr (who himself was no friend of the jewish populations within his own borders)