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[Bloody_Five]

ITT we're "critiquing" Charlie Hebdo for not offering the recipe to world peace in satire form.

How dare they!

 

[mellz]

A lot of people here act like satire should be free from criticism.

 

[Daria Morgendorffer]

I'd like to provide some insight regarding the cartoon because it seems to be highly confusing to non-French people.

It's going to be a bit long but I hope that it will be at least enlightening

1- France has a long tradition of satire and more importantly political satire.
At middle school, we study a 17th century play called Tartuffe which is about a priest who is actually a fraud and a sex maniac (Molière's, Tartuffe). It's considered a classic and the word "Tartuffe" is synonymous with "hypocrite" in French

2-In French, words are considered weapons.
The purpose of a good joke in French is not to please or be good natured.
It's supposed to hit the raw nerve, to elicit a reaction, to lay all pretenses bare.
Charlie Hebdo fits perfectly into this tradition.
For example: a 19th century president died while being blown by his mistress
His opponent declared in lieu of a public eulogy "He wanted to be Caesar, he was just Pompey" which is a play on the roman general "Pompey" and the word pompé "pumped" which is slang for receiving a blowjob in French

3-French language is implicit
Keep in mind when speaking to French people: the most important things are the things not said. Example : One of the most famous line in French literature is a girl saying to her lover in a classic play "Go. I don't hate you" instead of saying "I love you (Le Cid by Corneille) It's especially jarring to Americans who take everything at face value and need everything to be on the nose.

4- Back to the Charlie Hebdo cartoon.
The cartoon with the drowned kid is actually a pretty brutal condemnation of the indifference of Europe and how it values consumerism over a human life.
Note the poster with Ronald Mac saying "So close: Kid meals : two for the price of one".
The message is pretty clear: You are risking life and limb and for what?
To become another consumer, another kid to be fed his happy meal.
You wanted a better life but your death is meaningless because we only value you as a consumer to sell products to.
It's actually really sympathetic to the kid and very harsh on Europe

This subtext makes the second cartoon even better.
It says that even if the child had survived., it would not fit in Europe because he would be seen as a rapist and a molester.
Because of the mental sickness of Europe, whatever the poor child does, he is doomed.
Doomed to die because of indifference or doomed to suffer from racial prejudice.
Like most of the things Charlie Hebdo publishes, it's actually a critique of Europe and its hypocrisy.

People who are outraged by this don't actually grasp that Charlie Hebdo's are actually very outraged and use these cartoons as missiles against the indifference and stupidity of French people and European Society.

All this is implicit but it's pretty clear for most French people.
However, I understand that it can be highly confusing for foreign readers especially to American ones.
So please : don't rush to be outraged by French cartoons and take some time to analyze their deeper meaning.

This is a great post

 

[OverBlood 3]

^agreed it's great summary

Looking forward to more people redefine the meaning of 'satire' and people not understanding things and getting angry about it.

 

[Dali]

I thought the attackers were mostly part of pre-existing gangs of mainly Moroccan descent, not Syrian refugees.

 

[Addi]

I also think it's telling that people reacting negatively to this/getting offended etc. are people outside of France. People in France are not as touchy-feely, they can shout at each other, call each other the worse names, but still have no problem being friends afterwards. When some people say you have to understand French culture to understand the joke, it's not an understatement. You can of course "get" this joke by itself, but there is a certain French mentality surrounding it that might be hard to get. Bloody_Five's post explains this better than me.

Some of the problem is also the 24-hours clickbait news industry and Twitter outrage culture. I mean, why the fuck are journalists asking Aylan's mother what she thinks about this? A joke about her dead child is offensive to her? No shit Sherlock.
It's supposed to make us feel uneasy, ask the hard questions.

In the end, I don't really get what the outrage is supposed to accomplish other than people's need to show disagreement. Charlie Hebdo won't change. Charlie made the joke for it's readers. You don't like this type of jokes? Don't buy the magazine! Pretty simple.

 

[CosmicQueso]

This subtext makes the second cartoon even better.
It says that even if the child had survived., it would not fit in Europe because he would be seen as a rapist and a molester.
Because of the mental sickness of Europe, whatever the poor child does, he is doomed.
Doomed to die because of indifference or doomed to suffer from racial prejudice.
Like most of the things Charlie Hebdo publishes, it's actually a critique of Europe and its hypocrisy.

Thanks for the post, it is made much more clear now.

 

[Raist]

I'd like to provide some insight regarding the cartoon because it seems to be highly confusing to non-French people.

It's going to be a bit long but I hope that it will be at least enlightening

1- France has a long tradition of satire and more importantly political satire.
At middle school, we study a 17th century play called Tartuffe which is about a priest who is actually a fraud and a sex maniac (Molière's, Tartuffe). It's considered a classic and the word "Tartuffe" is synonymous with "hypocrite" in French

2-In French, words are considered weapons.
The purpose of a good joke in French is not to please or be good natured.
It's supposed to hit the raw nerve, to elicit a reaction, to lay all pretenses bare.
Charlie Hebdo fits perfectly into this tradition.
For example: a 19th century president died while being blown by his mistress
His opponent declared in lieu of a public eulogy "He wanted to be Caesar, he was just Pompey" which is a play on the roman general "Pompey" and the word pompé "pumped" which is slang for receiving a blowjob in French

3-French language is implicit
Keep in mind when speaking to French people: the most important things are the things not said. Example : One of the most famous line in French literature is a girl saying to her lover in a classic play "Go. I don't hate you" instead of saying "I love you (Le Cid by Corneille) It's especially jarring to Americans who take everything at face value and need everything to be on the nose.

4- Back to the Charlie Hebdo cartoon.
The cartoon with the drowned kid is actually a pretty brutal condemnation of the indifference of Europe and how it values consumerism over a human life.
Note the poster with Ronald Mac Donald saying "So close: Kid meals : two for the price of one".
The message is pretty clear: You are risking life and limb and for what?
To become another consumer, another kid to be fed his happy meal.
You wanted a better life but your death is meaningless because we only value you as a consumer to sell products to.
It's actually really sympathetic to the kid and very harsh on Europe

This subtext makes the second cartoon even better.
It says that even if the child had survived., it would not fit in Europe because he would be seen as a rapist and a molester.
Because of the mental sickness of Europe, whatever the poor child does, he is doomed.
Doomed to die because of indifference or doomed to suffer from racial prejudice.
Like most of the things Charlie Hebdo publishes, it's actually a critique of Europe and its hypocrisy.

People who are outraged by this don't actually grasp that Charlie Hebdo's are actually very outraged and use these cartoons as missiles against the indifference and stupidity of French people and European Society.

All this is implicit but it's pretty clear for most French people.
However, I understand that it can be highly confusing for foreign readers especially to American ones.
So please : don't rush to be outraged by French cartoons and take some time to analyze their deeper meaning.

I'm french and I can vouch for this post.

Satire (and sarcasm) are on a whole different level in french culture than in any other western country.

 

[Bloody_Five]

Edit

 

[Bloody_Five]

Another cover from Charlie Hebdo making more or less the same point but with perhaps less shock value.

Translation: Welcome to migrants
French guy: Make yourself at home !

Looking forward to shock reactions: oh my god, they advocate using migrants as furniture!

 

[Nozem]

excellent post

Really insightful, thanks for posting.

 

[Bloody_Five]

For those interested in France's tradition of brutal satire and no-punches pulled press cartoons, here a couple of historical example.

This is from an anti-clergy and anti-fat cat newspaper in 1906 !

http://idata.over-blog.com/2/50/23/47/Calotte/CC_33280.jpg

Translation: -Father, you have such big teeth! -It's to better eat everything up my child (Red Riding Hood reference)

http://idata.over-blog.com/2/50/23/47/Calotte/CC_33318.jpg

Translation: No wonder he was so fat!

This is from 1908, New Year's wishes :

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/53/69/44/corbeauxmoine.jpg

Yes, their wishes are hanging the last monk with the gut of the last ralichon (don't know what it means)


So non-French GAFers can better understand where Charlie Hebdo is coming from and see that's is rather mild stuff compared to what came before

 

[theignoramus]

I find it vulgar to be using a dead toddler to get an ideological point across regardless of how benign their ultimate message is.
What an uncouth bunch of people behind this mag. Low brow as fuck.

 

[wachie]

Just wondering how hate speech/racism is classified in the law (if it is).

Also need to stop giving attention to these shits.

 

[theignoramus]

Just wondering how hate speech/racism is classified in the law (if it is).

Also need to stop giving attention to these shits.

It's not hate speech given the message being conveyed, it's just a clumsy point delivered in the pretentious and attention seeking manner that is characteristic of French pseudo intellectuals.

 

[PdotMichael]

I find it vulgar to be using a dead toddler to get an ideological point across regardless of how benign their ultimate message is.
What an uncouth bunch of people behind this mag. Low brow as fuck.

It's not hate speech given the message being conveyed, it's just a clumsy point delivered in the pretentious and attention seeking manner that is characteristic of French pseudo intellectuals.

I wish such posts would become extinct like that animal in your avatar.

 

[Keasar]

I'd like to provide some insight regarding the cartoon because it seems to be highly confusing to non-French people.

It's going to be a bit long but I hope that it will be at least enlightening

1- France has a long tradition of satire and more importantly political satire.
At middle school, we study a 17th century play called Tartuffe which is about a priest who is actually a fraud and a sex maniac (Molière's, Tartuffe). It's considered a classic and the word "Tartuffe" is synonymous with "hypocrite" in French

2-In French, words are considered weapons.
The purpose of a good joke in French is not to please or be good natured.
It's supposed to hit the raw nerve, to elicit a reaction, to lay all pretenses bare.
Charlie Hebdo fits perfectly into this tradition.
For example: a 19th century president died while being blown by his mistress
His opponent declared in lieu of a public eulogy "He wanted to be Caesar, he was just Pompey" which is a play on the roman general "Pompey" and the word pompé "pumped" which is slang for receiving a blowjob in French

3-French language is implicit
Keep in mind when speaking to French people: the most important things are the things not said. Example : One of the most famous line in French literature is a girl saying to her lover in a classic play "Go. I don't hate you" instead of saying "I love you (Le Cid by Corneille) It's especially jarring to Americans who take everything at face value and need everything to be on the nose.

4- Back to the Charlie Hebdo cartoon.
The cartoon with the drowned kid is actually a pretty brutal condemnation of the indifference of Europe and how it values consumerism over a human life.
Note the poster with Ronald Mac Donald saying "So close: Kid meals : two for the price of one".
The message is pretty clear: You are risking life and limb and for what?
To become another consumer, another kid to be fed his happy meal.
You wanted a better life but your death is meaningless because we only value you as a consumer to sell products to.
It's actually really sympathetic to the kid and very harsh on Europe

This subtext makes the second cartoon even better.
It says that even if the child had survived., he would not fit in Europe because he would be seen as a rapist and a molester.
Because of the mental sickness of Europe, whatever the poor child does, he is doomed.
Doomed to die because of indifference or doomed to suffer from racial prejudice.
Like most of the things Charlie Hebdo publishes, it's actually a critique of Europe and its hypocrisy.

People who are outraged by this don't actually grasp that Charlie Hebdo's are actually very outraged and use these cartoons as missiles against the indifference and stupidity of French people and European Society.

All this is implicit but it's pretty clear for most French people.
However, I understand that it can be highly confusing for foreign readers especially to American ones.
So please : don't rush to be outraged by French cartoons and take some time to analyze their deeper meaning.

This is a great post. Thank you for writing it.

Just wondering how hate speech/racism is classified in the law (if it is).

Also need to stop giving attention to these shits.

Most nations in Europe look down on hate speech, but its not illegal to say it since censoring what people say would go against the idea of free speech. And unlike America, we in Europe have gone through all manner of phases in history (on the account that many of our nations are over 1000 years old, even more) including censorship and we realised it was a bad fucking idea.

That being said. This isn't hate speech. See the above quoted post.

 

[Real Hero]

Bloody_Five said all that needs to be said really

 

[KooopaKid]

I wish such posts would become extinct like that animal in your avatar.

Let me guess, you are from the Left and for the freedom of speech?

 

[OverBlood 3]

Let me guess, you are from the Left and for the freedom of speech?

Give up it's embarrassing.

 

[Resident_UA]

I'd like to provide some insight regarding the cartoon because it seems to be highly confusing to non-French people.

It's going to be a bit long but I hope that it will be at least enlightening

1- France has a long tradition of satire and more importantly political satire.
At middle school, we study a 17th century play called Tartuffe which is about a priest who is actually a fraud and a sex maniac (Molière's, Tartuffe). It's considered a classic and the word "Tartuffe" is synonymous with "hypocrite" in French

2-In French, words are considered weapons.
The purpose of a good joke in French is not to please or be good natured.
It's supposed to hit the raw nerve, to elicit a reaction, to lay all pretenses bare.
Charlie Hebdo fits perfectly into this tradition.
For example: a 19th century president died while being blown by his mistress
His opponent declared in lieu of a public eulogy "He wanted to be Caesar, he was just Pompey" which is a play on the roman general "Pompey" and the word pompé "pumped" which is slang for receiving a blowjob in French

3-French language is implicit
Keep in mind when speaking to French people: the most important things are the things not said. Example : One of the most famous line in French literature is a girl saying to her lover in a classic play "Go. I don't hate you" instead of saying "I love you (Le Cid by Corneille) It's especially jarring to Americans who take everything at face value and need everything to be on the nose.

4- Back to the Charlie Hebdo cartoon.
The cartoon with the drowned kid is actually a pretty brutal condemnation of the indifference of Europe and how it values consumerism over a human life.
Note the poster with Ronald Mac Donald saying "So close: Kid meals : two for the price of one".
The message is pretty clear: You are risking life and limb and for what?
To become another consumer, another kid to be fed his happy meal.
You wanted a better life but your death is meaningless because we only value you as a consumer to sell products to.
It's actually really sympathetic to the kid and very harsh on Europe

This subtext makes the second cartoon even better.
It says that even if the child had survived., he would not fit in Europe because he would be seen as a rapist and a molester.
Because of the mental sickness of Europe, whatever the poor child does, he is doomed.
Doomed to die because of indifference or doomed to suffer from racial prejudice.
Like most of the things Charlie Hebdo publishes, it's actually a critique of Europe and its hypocrisy.

People who are outraged by this don't actually grasp that Charlie Hebdo's are actually very outraged and use these cartoons as missiles against the indifference and stupidity of French people and European Society.

All this is implicit but it's pretty clear for most French people.
However, I understand that it can be highly confusing for foreign readers especially to American ones.
So please : don't rush to be outraged by French cartoons and take some time to analyze their deeper meaning.

The reason why it's difficult for Americans to catch sarcasm is because their presidential candidates are saying similar things for real just to get elected.

 

[KooopaKid]

Give up it's embarrassing.

lol

Ok I give up, you're right, you win.

 

[Bloody_Five]

Bloody_Five said all that needs to be said really

Thank you so much and glad to be of service.
It means a lot to me to see that they are still people out there who are interested in learning more about a subject and willing to follow a train of thought to its conclusion.

You guys just made my day.

 

[MUnited83]

Just wondering how hate speech/racism is classified in the law (if it is).

Also need to stop giving attention to these shits.

It's not either, so...

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Just wondering how hate speech/racism is classified in the law (if it is).

Also need to stop giving attention to these shits.

Hate speech is not allowed in France and since they haven't been prosecuted by anyone this is not hate speech.

 

[Mael]

Hate speech is not allowed in France and since they haven't been prosecuted by anyone this is not hate speech.

This is a bit more complicated but the general point is correct.
If it ever get to court, it's going to be a merry day in court when the judge will fall over himself off laughter about the ridiculous notion of it being hate speech.

 

[Kezen]

I find it hilarious. Some people just can't take jokes apparently.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

This is a bit more complicated but the general point is correct.
If it ever get to court, it's going to be a merry day in court when the judge will fall over himself off laughter about the ridiculous notion of it being hate speech.

Yeah it would be quickly dismissed. It was just to show how no one in France actually thinks that it was a case of hate speech. No one to actually brings the case to court at least.

 

[Mael]

Yeah it would be quickly dismissed. It was just to show how no one in France actually thinks that it was a case of hate speech. No one to actually brings the case to court at least.

That also would be a good way to make sure there would be a strong movement to repeal the hate speech laws too.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

I wish I could be as eloquent as BloodyFive on this issue, but I can't so I'll just say, I agree with them.

 

[Kinyou]

Why does he look like an ape?

I think he's meant to look like a pig. A"sexist pig"

 

[Mael]

I think he's meant to look like a pig. A"sexist pig"

He looks like a pig, the nose is a pretty good indicator...

The art style is really nothing to write home because it's pretty standard for press drawings really.
And this controversial cartoon is rather tame
The chiefs that succeed abroad :

Spoiler

Gay marriage : Mgr 23 has 3 dads
"the Father" "the Son" "the Holy Spirit"

Spoiler

these are all from 1979 btw
"If you want oil go see Allah"

Spoiler

The bet of the ayatola
"If I'm the cause of a world war I shave my beard!"

Spoiler

Sister theresa getting a nobel prize
"No need to be pretty anymore to be a success!"
(on the side : Brejnev no longer succeed the fork test)

Spoiler

It's really an excuse to post more.
And really there's a whole range of cartoons in the pages too, I'd argue the best are very rarely on the cover.

 

[Kenstar]

I dont understand so I'm pissed off

Where's that Jewish kid with the green hat to tell me how to feel about this

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Queen of Jordan responds to a cartoon with a cartoon.

 

[Sianos]

The reason why it's difficult for Americans to catch sarcasm is because their presidential candidates are saying similar things for real just to get elected.

I've actually heard extended family members say that the refugee children would have grown up to be "Syrian refugees and then go on to rape women" and so therefore their death isn't that big of a deal. And this is on top of how the Republican frontrunner wants to ban all people who are [look] Muslim.

Americans are notoriously bad at detecting and handling satire, but it doesn't help that what is absurdist humor in France is a legitimately existing thought in America.