grosvenor_92
Member
whether you like him or not how can you disagree with what he wrote cause he is basically right
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Cliffy B says things about microtransactions
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
Castle Doctrine
Member
Exactly. Complaining about it on GAF at least got more prominent people with some influence like Cliff and Jim Sterling to write about it. Perhaps now more will do so and awareness will spread. That's how change happens in society. Is it going to make a difference in this case? Probably not, I have very little faith in impulsive gamers, but it's better than nothing.
In the end I've been "voting with my wallet" for years, but I'm still at the mercy of the larger market. I've accepted that.
cliffyb said:
Regardless about how people feel, this is actually truthful based on numbers and metrics I've used and seen. Making the goods may be trivial by the end, but the initial cost to set it all up isn't negligible so the risk needs to be mitigated by having business intelligence to prove an audience that wants it exists. Not every way it's been implemented is revenue positive (or even morally positive), but the industry doesn't really do it to gouge consumers - there's actually a known market that supports microtransactions.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The situation is a little complicated. If company X releases "Balance Ruining DLC" and everyone complains, but it's still profitable, then what message gets sent? Pissed off customers might take hypothetical money away from your franchise or company at a later date, but suckers can give you a profit now.
Eventually all the energy gets sucked out of the game because of the exploitation and the cycle gets repeated with another product. Worst case scenario, eventually all the energy gets sucked out of the industry and the business isn't profitable anymore. People can't be suckered forever.
What is the line for micro-transactions and how will people know when it's crossed? Those conversations absolutely need to happen and there needs to be an open dialogue about it. Otherwise publishers won't know until it's too late.
they won't pay attention anyway and if what you said has ground in reality it's will be a case of natural selection.
that reason is called "I'm too lazy to drive there because I have a console in my house".
I remember downloading the Jazz Jackrabbit demo from Happypuppy.com on a Windows 3.1 system when I was a wee tyke. It was the shit.
But Gears was pretty good, too.
If you think that's the only reason you must have been too young to watch the decline. My friends and I loved going to the arcade but it was just too damn expensive compared to paying a flat fee for a game.
Treemonkeys
Member
It's a little strange to me that after all this time some people still just want microtransactions/DLC to just go away.
It's just a mechanism, the merits are all in the quality and price point, generally if the game is fun and the price of DLC is fair then I love it.
What really irks me is pre-order "we don't want your money anymore, good luck on ebay" DLC that isn't available anymore, but there's not too many offenders with that.
It's just a mechanism, the merits are all in the quality and price point, generally if the game is fun and the price of DLC is fair then I love it.
What really irks me is pre-order "we don't want your money anymore, good luck on ebay" DLC that isn't available anymore, but there's not too many offenders with that.
vikingvessel
Member
Telling anybody that they are wrong for not taking issue with something is a formidable challenger for that top spot.
maniac-kun
Member
The reason why we gamers like the Valve approach to microtransactions is:
Everything they offer is cosmetic. It dosnt influence the gameplay. The community can contribute to the offered items. Most items can be earned ingame.
We hate the EA approach because they are greedy bastards that artificialy make gameplay decisions to sell you some crap.
Everything they offer is cosmetic. It dosnt influence the gameplay. The community can contribute to the offered items. Most items can be earned ingame.
We hate the EA approach because they are greedy bastards that artificialy make gameplay decisions to sell you some crap.
Ok we get it Cliff, you struck gold with Gears, now -you see- once you were a developer that thought about gamers, about its work (not product) but then you got to a high position where you could not understand what is going on in the minds of peasant gamers.
That is because you don't see any gamers, or a public, you only see costumers, and money. Because you got money, and you liked money. And don't tell us that's not true, you are not even working and are probably polishing your lambo every morning; that's good and all, but when games don't mean other than a medium to enrich yourself to you, don't come to us and expect to gt your point, when games are a mean to express, imagine and, well, make us poor ourselves.
Time is money, don't you know? what are you doing here? get a LIFE, the life you want, and let us whine all we need and want, because as you are, we are entitled to our own thoughts, words and concerns. And guess what, you are a medium for us too, and hell, we could be a vocal minority, but we exist, if you don't care, that's fine, but know, that we might not care about you too.
You can't shut us up.
Regards.
That is because you don't see any gamers, or a public, you only see costumers, and money. Because you got money, and you liked money. And don't tell us that's not true, you are not even working and are probably polishing your lambo every morning; that's good and all, but when games don't mean other than a medium to enrich yourself to you, don't come to us and expect to gt your point, when games are a mean to express, imagine and, well, make us poor ourselves.
Time is money, don't you know? what are you doing here? get a LIFE, the life you want, and let us whine all we need and want, because as you are, we are entitled to our own thoughts, words and concerns. And guess what, you are a medium for us too, and hell, we could be a vocal minority, but we exist, if you don't care, that's fine, but know, that we might not care about you too.
You can't shut us up.
Regards.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I'd be really surprised if major publishers weren't surveying and focus testing every aspect of microtransactions. And collecting data from message boards too. What they do with the data is anyone's guess.
Now, Cliffy pointed out that it's a business and publishers seek to make as much money as possible. If a publisher screws up their own game with poorly thought out µ-trans then they stand to lose money to a company that doesn't. The more casual gamers aren't going to say a word when they feel like they're not getting their money's worth. They'll just walk away. And the vocal minority is going to be telling them exactly why that happened well before it happens.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
My nightmares... they were prophecy.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Yes the industry is a business, but the myopia that surrounds these clowns when they cry about how "tough" it is for games to make money whilst simultaneously ramming pre order codes, $150 "collectors editions" and Day one DLC. And who can forget the season and online passes now.
And they do this while having the likes of dorito's and mountain dew grease the wheels of capitalism with cross promotion. Fuck 'em
And they do this while having the likes of dorito's and mountain dew grease the wheels of capitalism with cross promotion. Fuck 'em
Do you see the contradiction here, Cliff? Our votes amount to nothing. Talk is all we really have.
The entire article is borderline propaganda telling us why we can't complain about the directions of the gaming industry.
radios shipping overview
Member
CliffyB says same things Gaffers always say in defense of ugly corporate practices in the game industry. Meanwhile, I continue not buying EA games, not spending money on F2P games, and not buying CliffyB's games.
vikingvessel
Member
Where is the contradiction? He is addressing what he feels is the vocal minority and you are agreeing and saying that the vocal minority vote amounts to nothing. His remedy was to vote with your wallet. It has been a while since I read his original piece. I remember posters telling him to shut up. Has he told anyone to shut up?
Hi i'm Caleb
Member
"...it blows my mind that somehow gamers dont seem to get that Valve is a business, just like any other, and when Valve charges 100$ for an engagement ring in Team Fortress 2 its somehow cool yet when EA wants to sell something similar its seen as evil. Yes, guys, I hate to break it to you, as awesome as Valve is theyre also a company that seeks to make as much money as possible.
Theyre just way better at their image control.""
Shhh Cliff don't tell the internet that. Next thing you know he'll be talking about Nintendo...
Theyre just way better at their image control.""
Shhh Cliff don't tell the internet that. Next thing you know he'll be talking about Nintendo...
EmCeeGramr
Member
If you're a minority, then what good is your vote?
Unfortunately for gamers, voting with your wallet is unlikely to have the desired effect.
The economic theory of voting with your wallet is that it sends a signal to the supplier. The reality is that the signal must first be recognized and then it must be interpreted correctly in order to have the intended effect. There is so much noise in the process that this is highly unlikely to happen.
Even the simple act of receiving the signal is extremely complex and biased. There are usually incentives to keep forecasts as low as possible. Especially on MTX and DLC products where the gross margins are so high. The low demand signal is not received unless demand is lower than an arbitrarily defined point. That point is likely significantly off from where demand could potentially be if a high quality product was released.
Even if the low demand signal is received there are so many factors that drive demand that it is extremely difficult to determine the reason for the demand variance. The decision not to buy due to quality or pricing has the exact same signal as the decision not to buy due to unawareness (we need more marketing next time!) or timing (the DLC was too late/early!) or desire (we put too much content into the main game!).
The economic theory of voting with your wallet is that it sends a signal to the supplier. The reality is that the signal must first be recognized and then it must be interpreted correctly in order to have the intended effect. There is so much noise in the process that this is highly unlikely to happen.
Even the simple act of receiving the signal is extremely complex and biased. There are usually incentives to keep forecasts as low as possible. Especially on MTX and DLC products where the gross margins are so high. The low demand signal is not received unless demand is lower than an arbitrarily defined point. That point is likely significantly off from where demand could potentially be if a high quality product was released.
Even if the low demand signal is received there are so many factors that drive demand that it is extremely difficult to determine the reason for the demand variance. The decision not to buy due to quality or pricing has the exact same signal as the decision not to buy due to unawareness (we need more marketing next time!) or timing (the DLC was too late/early!) or desire (we put too much content into the main game!).
The remedy to a complaint is to cast a vote that amounts to nothing? You don't see a contradiction there?
His entire article was a defense of microtransactions/dlc in response to complaints about them. He doesn't have to come out and say shut up. He lists a bunch of reasons why these complaints are invalid.
I never said they didn't.
If the market is gobbling up microtransactions then a small (but vocal) group of consumers opting out won't be enough to shift the industry's current path. His article is a roundabout way of telling people to stop whining about EA's DLC practices without acknowledging that the point of people complaining is to better inform consumers.
Basically, don't spook the saps. If your argument is "Don't like it, don't buy it" why doesn't that extend to "Tell other people not to buy it"? Where is the great injustice in that?
vikingvessel
Member
If we are accepting that to be true, once again, the remedy he offered was to vote with your wallet. We have to draw the line somewhere in regards to want being reason enough to have. I am going to assume that Cliff has a much greater industry insight compared to those attempting to demean him with pointless .gifs and unnecessary swipes at his success. If we are to accept that to be true, it sounds like they have chosen to address what their research indicates is what the most want.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Exactly.
That speaks about the platform, not the games themselves. What about PS360PC where you're missing the touch screen then?
Ermm, what? Who decides that a genre is more important than others? Button games are inherently better you say? FALSE. Touch-only games are inherently better? FALSE. It depends on the game, it depends on the genre.
That doesn't mean you can't create a great game around touch-screen only interface or buttons-only interface.
There's plenty of great games which works better on, say, an iPad then they do on PC, or PS360.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Right, and what we're saying is that a vote with your wallet is meaningless if we're as small a minority as claimed, which renders his advice to people who hate certain DLC practices moot.
ArkkAngel007
Member
I highly doubt the majority of people who complain do so to that effect.
What do you think people are complaining about DLC for other than to raise awareness?
The tone of Cliff's blog post was not conducive to any kind of discussion. Besides his strange assertion that people never complained about Valve or Blizzard's ventures into DLC being flat out wrong there's nothing new about his arguments. If anything my big takeaway is that game development needs to move the hell out of San Francisco.
Nealand Liquor
Member
You know the most disapointing thing about this thread is we had an opportunity open and meaningful dialog. Sadly though, it was pissed away because internet jackassery is the easier responce. Hell maybe it's just me, but it's depressing when the opportunity for potentionally meaningful communication presents itself and it's squandered due to personal attacks, generalizations and immature one-liners.
You know it's no wonder both sides thinks the other is the enemy, we don't even give each other a chance at understanding the others point of view. Christ even when a developer is present, it's less than 15 posts into the thread and the shit's slinging about. With all the vitriol, you'd never know we all had the same thing in common that we're all so very passionate about.
You know it's no wonder both sides thinks the other is the enemy, we don't even give each other a chance at understanding the others point of view. Christ even when a developer is present, it's less than 15 posts into the thread and the shit's slinging about. With all the vitriol, you'd never know we all had the same thing in common that we're all so very passionate about.
Solely "voting with your wallet" is a poor method to getting what you want anyway. If you don't like the DLC of course don't buy it. But the idea of choosing not to buy DLC out of principle and stopping there as if the game company will recognize that "missing" purchase is asinine.
vikingvessel
Member
I still don't see the contradiction. Are you looking for him to offer you another option? His opinion was to attack the purse, that the internet griefing isn't driving home the message. The fact that many approve of the additional purchases is the message that is the basis for how things are currently being offered. To me, that is where it falls back on accepting at some point that it may not be for you and move on. Or make a fuss all you like, he is just letting you know the desired effect may not be achieved.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Look at all the meme spam in that blog, what a sad manchild.
Also defending anti consumer practices with 'it's a business' ? You can rationalise anything this way.
The American take on capitalism sickens me.
Also defending anti consumer practices with 'it's a business' ? You can rationalise anything this way.
The American take on capitalism sickens me.
The hivemind of gaf definitely has an overinflated sense of self-worth. Similar to reddit I'd say, but even less warranted in this instance.
If anything, those who are aware of gaf, but primarily exist outside of it on the internet, are often quite vocal in their distaste for this place.
As for Cliffy, of course his views are going to be in contention with that of consumers here, especially enthusiasts, but he does make some interesting points about gaming's history with monetization of content and 'exploiting' consumers. Too many vitriolic and banal responses in here to actually have a pleasant discussion about the matter however.
If anything, those who are aware of gaf, but primarily exist outside of it on the internet, are often quite vocal in their distaste for this place.
As for Cliffy, of course his views are going to be in contention with that of consumers here, especially enthusiasts, but he does make some interesting points about gaming's history with monetization of content and 'exploiting' consumers. Too many vitriolic and banal responses in here to actually have a pleasant discussion about the matter however.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
You could forgive someone for being confused that people complaining about people who purchase DLC are doing so for the noble purposes of educating them, when they seem to spend an equal amount of time denigrating them. Referring to them as retards, saps, people who love to bend over and take it up the ass, etc.
Yes, scold forum members for speaking their mind, but stand by a man who comes here to troll and then doesn't contribute to his own debate while posting here. I'm sure he's glad you stood up for him and all the other people that are too fearful of the great Hivemind Gaf army.
Keep fighting the good fight soldier.
Well he's just trying to keep the conversation pleasant.
phosphor112
Banned
I'm going to your Pax East keynote =D.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
There is no hive-mind here. There is no consensus on anything. Even Hitler has a GAF defense force.
And there are plenty of people trying to have a civil discussion. It's pretty easy to ignore the people flinging poo and make your points and counterpoints.
vikingvessel
Member
Come on, in the midst of discussing what may or may not constitute contradiction you rag on him for meme abuse and then call him a manchild? Like that is any less ridiculous? This locks right in step with the complaints when these insiders give as good as they get, though are wrong because they provide a service. I guess it could have been worse, you could have mentioned his car.
Monocle
Member
So? Just because someone's rude doesn't mean they don't have a point. It just means they don't express it well.
11/10
If Cliff took a shit in a napkin, I swear some of you would commend him and say how beautiful the shit napkin is.
I was referring to the notion that gaf may simply be a vocal minority in the grand vision of things, something which I agree with. But this is not necessarily a criticism of posters here.
I simply think some perspective is needed within a discussion like this.
Hopefully you won't distill your own meaning again from this post however.
Keep fighting the good fight soldier.
I don't hve a problem with microtransactions unless the negatively affect the design of the game. Like say they make it so you gain xp at a very low rate unless you pay for a timed xp doubler. That just ruins a game and I absolutely hate it. If the microtransactions are just basically cheats and shortcuts for people who want that sort of thing I have absolutely no problem with it.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Because it's essentially a meme at this point. Many don't bother at looking at the actual product being offered, just that word they can grasp on to.
Maybe you genuinely understand the pros and cons, and theory, behind the practices and the good and ill effects for consumers (which then good for you and keep doing what you do), but the majority of people couldn't care less. Same thing when it comes to budgets (single player vs multiplayer) and marketing. They just take the popular route for the karma/whatever and don't bother to educate themselves.
And I think that's the point Cliff is making. You can make all the noise you want, but no one is going to give a crap if you're not taking an objective stance. You just end up playing the fool opposed to the money that speaks greater volumes to these companies.
Disclaimer: Pathetic that I have to put this, as I'm sure some princess is going to get all offended and take it personally, but I don't mean everyone. Just the majority. Nor do I think that the majority of people are just putting on a show and aren't actually upset about the practices, because they probably are [putting on a show and actually upset
]. It's just the education and message that is wanting behind those feelings.Your reading too much into it. As someone said there is a defense for literally everything possible on here. I have never seen this place on 1 accord for a subject. Maybe a majority or 70 percent...but everyone agreeing on something? haha...ahahahahahahah
On topic, I don't get pissed off at micro transactions, I know this is a business, perhaps a lot of people forget or don't want to admit it but I understand how it works. Though I dont agree with all of Cliffs points but I get where he's coming from
EmCeeGramr
Member
And we're saying that the desired effect may not be achieved by attacking the purse, for a reason that he himself brings up.
Ask primarily or solely PC gamers how well the oh so pretty democratic maxim of "vote with your wallet" works when they feel they are receiving substandard products. The publisher doesn't exactly say, "Let's cater to these people who won't buy our products."