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[ChorizoPicozo]

He is actually right though. As much as i hate to say it, Maybe a quarter of console owners by exclusive titles. Most times not as much as that. We have a handful of behemoths and the crowd buys the console their friends tell them to buy to play fortnite.

is insane how some people think this "argument" is some kind of revelation or gocha.

 

[Edmund]

That's not how hardware sales work. You just keep redesigning the hardware to be cheaper to make but keep selling it at the same price. Get with the program.

(PS2 final re-design at the end of its life was a flimsy piece of easily damaged garbage, but at least it was cheap and people know what they paid for)

He's just trying to push the "Sony is anti-consumer" angle now that Xbox is toast.

 

[XesqueVara]

It's not that a huge difference. The PS5 CPU does have cutbacks and runs at lower clocks but it's also 16 threads while the 3600 is 12 threads. If they bump the clocks up to around 4.1ghz in the pro as rumoured I believe it should perform as good if not better than the 3600 and I don't see why 60fps Starfield on it wouldn't be possible. If it comes to the platform and if they bother to put the effort in to get it there is another matter.

Nah dude, you don't understand how horrible the cache configs of the consoles are, your ryzen 3600 even with less 2 cores has 4 times more L3 cache than the 8 cores encountered in consoles.
Like you just need to see a 4700S review to see how fucked up the thing is.

 

[Perrott]

But will Xbox fans last until tomorrow?

 

[Zuzu]

I seriously can't understand how they got here.

I get it, its tough if you market and execute your platform plans so poorly that you can't entice enough people onto the platform. That's on them. They made such good hardware with the series x and then flounder the launch and first two years.

Why go and buy a 70 billion dollar company to then turn around after 3 months and drop everything.

The ABK deal broke them, clearly. They thought it would be some golden goose and it ended up airing all their dirty laundry, made them look as shit as they obviously are and now they are doing this.

I legit thought they would have had some master plan, but it legit looks like Satya has just gone, nope....we just want all the cash, that's who MS is.

I get it, they will end up being huge in gaming and making shit loads of money, will dwarf everyone but at all this cost to actually pushing some innovation.

Quick start, all these awesome features, gamepass. All lost becuase for the life of them, they can't get their eggs in line.

A lot of rejoicing for many, which I get but I genuinely think we have lost any credence of MS being anything but the ms trillion dollar company now. They are going to double down on revenue and profits and, well, hopefully we get some good games but for those of us like myself who liked the hardware, I think we will lose out on some cool shit.

I wish they would wait just one more year to see if things turn around to some degree. I wish they would put COD on Gamepass and then just see if this years' lineup (Avowed, Hellblade, Indiana Jones etc.) makes a difference to console sales and reassess the situation at the end of 2024 or in 2025. Who knows, perhaps slowly, but surely, they might see some incremental growth which could increase significantly over the long term and produce some momentum going into the next generation where they could build on it even more. They've only just purchased ABK and now they're suddenly doing this. It all seems like a great knee-jerk reaction to the downturn in console sales towards the end of 2023. It seems like something just snapped internally in Microsoft regarding the Xbox division.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I wonder if MS could earn any form of respect by just being straight up honest
They come out and say. We bet the bank on some of these moves paying off, but the reality is we didn't see the penetrative we needed to justify our investment. So, this is how it is. ..

I wish they would wait just one more year to see if things turn around to some degree. I wish they would put COD on Gamepass and then just see if this years' lineup (Avowed, Hellblade, Indiana Jones etc.) makes a difference to console sales. Then slowly, but surely, they might see some incremental growth which could increase significantly over the long term and produce some momentum going into the next generation where they could build on it even more. They've only just purchased ABK and now they're suddenly doing this. It all seems like a great knee-jerk reaction to the downturn in console sales towards the end of 2023. It seems like something just snapped internally in Microsoft regarding the Xbox division.

I completely agree with you. Microsoft had a bad year for releases last year. They didn't land like they should have. I guess they think this is their only choice.

Let's see how their games review from here on out and what the excitement levels are for their titles.

 

[IDKFA]

I've been thinking about this recently and I've decided that there is no way that Microsoft is going full third-party. Not a chance. Yes, all Activision games will be on Sony and Nintendo platforms, maybe a few other choice selections, but that's it.

Starfield, Halo, Gears etc are not going to be playstation. Ever.

Doing that would mean leaving the console space completely. I don't see that happening. Yes console sales a lower than expected, but are they really so bad that they're going to do a Sega? This is Microsoft. Surly they have the money to ride this out?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I completely agree with you. Microsoft had a bad year for releases last year.

They had the best year of releases they’ve had since 2010.

The writing is on the wall. Nothing is going to turn the tide.

It’s done. Put a fork in it. Go multiplat so they don’t need to layoff 50% of Bethesda and others. Rip off the bandaid and let the wound heal

 

[Maddoxswe]

I've been thinking about this recently and I've decided that there is no way that Microsoft is going full third-party. Not a chance. Yes, all Activision games will be on Sony and Nintendo platforms, maybe a few other choice selections, but that's it.

Starfield, Halo, Gears etc are not going to be playstation. Ever.

Doing that would mean leaving the console space completely. I don't see that happening. Yes console sales a lower than expected, but are they really so bad that they're going to do a Sega? This is Microsoft. Surly they have the money to ride this out?

It is clear that they can ride the wave, but why would they?

It is not so direct that Microsoft is conducting any charity. They want to make money, not waste it.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I wish they would wait just one more year to see if things turn around to some degree. I wish they would put COD on Gamepass and then just see if this years' lineup (Avowed, Hellblade, Indiana Jones etc.) makes a difference to console sales and reassess the situation at the end of 2024 or in 2025. Who knows, perhaps slowly, but surely, they might see some incremental growth which could increase significantly over the long term and produce some momentum going into the next generation where they could build on it even more. They've only just purchased ABK and now they're suddenly doing this. It all seems like a great knee-jerk reaction to the downturn in console sales towards the end of 2023. It seems like something just snapped internally in Microsoft regarding the Xbox division.

Xbox went to Microsoft for money. Microsoft said "yes, but it is going to cost you".
Xbox got the money, but the plan didn't work out. Now MS is back and will do everything it can to extract the money from Xbox. Basically until the ABK deal, Xbox was an annoying money pit but at least it was not visible to the rest of the corporation. But the request for ABk acquisition brought the attention of the big bosses, and Xbox couldn't stay independent anymore.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

timmyboy:

"The margins have collapsed the CFO said to Phil enough with the circus.

what happened in the last quarter really spooked MS"

 

[IDKFA]

It is clear that they can ride the wave, but why would they?

It is not so direct that Microsoft is conducting any charity. They want to make money, not waste it.

Because if they ride the wave then they'll dominate the console space next gen.

Yes, they're losing money now, but they'll make it all back next gen and then some.

This is why I don't believe these rumours. Microsoft would have to be really dumb to go third-party and not wide the wave.

 

[Yoboman]

timmyboy:

"The margins have collapsed the CFO said to Phil enough with the circus.

what happened in the last quarter really spooked MS"

Give Phil another award!

 

[DJ12]

He is actually right though. As much as i hate to say it, Maybe a quarter of console owners by exclusive titles. Most times not as much as that. We have a handful of behemoths and the crowd buys the console their friends tell them to buy to play fortnite.

 

[Banjo64]

Thinking back to the ABK negotiations with Jim Ryan around CoD...
What thr was even the point of that if this has been the goal in the long run?
There has been an internal conflict around these matters, that's clear. It permeates everything, especially their marketing. No wonder one couldn't make heads or tails of anything in their messaging.

Yeah.

My thoughts;

$85b worth of acquisitions have been green lit due to Xbox’s internal projections of 100m subscribers by 2030 and an increase in cloud gamers world wide. This has completely flatlined over a period of 2 years at 25m.

Xbox have had 6 of these acquired studios since 2016. 1 from 2017. 7 studios, the needle hasn’t moved and nothing has been accomplished.

2 huge budget games, Starfield and Forza Motorsport, have achieved absolutely nothing for them. I suspect these games had huge internal pressure to deliver sales, subscriber growth and profit to show that the model can work. This is on the back of other games like Redfall and Halo Infinite bombing relative to expectations.

Basically, the rope had ran out. Xbox have had 7 years since the acquisitions started and they are nose diving. I think the division has been ran by idiots to be honest, and I think Satya is now mandating what happens.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

i want to sleep but this mofos keep taking. i feel like a lab scientists studying rats behavior.

 

[FingerBang]

I wonder if MS could earn any form of respect by just being straight up honest
They come out and say. We bet the bank on some of these moves paying off, but the reality is we didn't see the penetrative we needed to justify our investment. So, this is how it is. ..



I completely agree with you. Microsoft had a bad year for releases last year. They didn't land like they should have. I guess they think this is their only choice.

Let's see how their games review from here on out and what the excitement levels are for their titles.

I wish they would wait just one more year to see if things turn around to some degree. I wish they would put COD on Gamepass and then just see if this years' lineup (Avowed, Hellblade, Indiana Jones etc.) makes a difference to console sales and reassess the situation at the end of 2024 or in 2025. Who knows, perhaps slowly, but surely, they might see some incremental growth which could increase significantly over the long term and produce some momentum going into the next generation where they could build on it even more. They've only just purchased ABK and now they're suddenly doing this. It all seems like a great knee-jerk reaction to the downturn in console sales towards the end of 2023. It seems like something just snapped internally in Microsoft regarding the Xbox division.

I understand the way you both feel, but realistically:

1) They've been trying for a long time
2) They started the acquisition of ABK at a different time, in a different economy. They might have had a bit more leeway if things hadn't changed and the strategis of most companies hadn't shifted from a phase of growth to one of a high interest rate in which investors are looking for a roi.

You can look at this as the end of Xbox, but probably, they're looking at it as the only way to keep the business alive. It's either this or they're gone for good.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Because if they ride the wave then they'll dominate the console space next gen.

This is why I don't believe these rumours. Microsoft would have to be really dumb to go third-party and not wide the wave.

That's what I think as well - they spent years getting into the position where they can publish lots of first party games exclusively to their platforms and just as they're about to put the plan into action they change direction. .

However, every day that passes where they don't comment and more and more rumors surface makes it seem more and more plausible.

 

[Fabieter]

That'd be the smartest thing I agree. But Sony will likely see it this way: there are console gamers and then there are PC gamers. As they will be the only high-end console manufacturer, the console population will not leave them.

P.S. Sony also started porting to PCs (without the negative repercussions) because their only direct competitor in the high-end console market was already doing day and date. If Xbox was not releasing their games on PC day one, Sony would NEVER publish their games on PC either.

That's funny considering most people I know on steam started their gaming life on a console and left them for different reasons.

 

[DJ12]

In all serious xbox is dead.

Going to be very easy for other third party publishers to skip xbox now.

 

[hinch7]

I think Sony will have even more incentive to release PS games on PC or a bit quicker in case they want to release a game earlier on PC.

Why? With the console space in the higher end basically uncontested.. it will be a bloodbath when they MS essentially goes third party and winds down Xbox - as traditional consoles go.

There's little reason to change strategy. Sony's console exclusives and timed exclusives makes their hardware worth buying. And from this move from Microsoft and Xbox, for current customers of Xbox or those who are/were on the fence may get a PlayStation, whether now or in the future. If anything that may disrupt Sony's current strategy because there are quite a PC gamers (like myself), that only really play their consoles for the exclusives. Many of which double dip on games on both console and PC - a bit like Rockstar with their games and releases.

 

[DenchDeckard]

They had the best year of releases they’ve had since 2010.

The writing is on the wall. Nothing is going to turn the tide.

It’s done. Put a fork in it. Go multiplat so they don’t need to layoff 50% of Bethesda and others. Rip off the bandaid and let the wound heal

Yeah.

My thoughts;

$85b worth of acquisitions have been green lit due to Xbox’s internal projections of 100m subscribers by 2030 and an increase in cloud gamers world wide. This has completely flatlined over a period of 2 years at 25m.

Xbox have had 6 of these acquired studios since 2016. 1 from 2017. 7 studios, the needle hasn’t moved and nothing has been accomplished.

2 huge budget games, Starfield and Forza Motorsport, have achieved absolutely nothing for them. I suspect these games had huge internal pressure to deliver sales, subscriber growth and profit to show that the model can work. This is on the back of other games like Redfall and Halo Infinite bombing relative to expectations.

Basically, the rope had ran out. Xbox have had 7 years since the acquisitions started and they are nose diving. I think the division has been ran by idiots to be honest, and I think Satya is now mandating what happens.

I understand the way you both feel, but realistically:

1) They've been trying for a long time
2) They started the acquisition of ABK at a different time, in a different economy. They might have had a bit more leeway if things hadn't changed and the strategis of most companies hadn't shifted from a phase of growth to one of a high interest rate in which investors are looking for a roi.

You can look at this as the end of Xbox, but probably, they're looking at it as the only way to keep the business alive. It's either this or they're gone for good.

I agree, this is all correct.

At the end of the day they owe it to as many of those employees they've taken on to keep them healthily employed and the businesses to thrive for as long as possible.

They failed at their initial goals and this is the outcome.

I prefer this then them destroying all these companies they purchased.

Now let the games go everywhere. Boost them halo infinite numbers etc. It's fun to jump into every now and again.

 

[Three]

How it's going:

This guy is unbelievable

How it started:

 

[Killjoy-NL]

He is actually right though. As much as i hate to say it, Maybe a quarter of console owners by exclusive titles. Most times not as much as that. We have a handful of behemoths and the crowd buys the console their friends tell them to buy to play fortnite.

Then why do people jump ship to PS5?

Because with crossplay, it doesn't matter on which platform your friends play.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

How it's going:

How it started:

 

[Slimboy Fat]

If xbox basically gets flushed I wonder how that will affect PC gaming. On the one hand Sony might stop paying for 3rd party exclusives. On the other hand they might start seeing PC, or at least Steam, as competition. Not looking forward to the Playstation storefront that's likely to come.

 

[Bonfires Down]

That's funny considering most people I know on steam started their gaming life on a console and left them for different reasons.

I’m interested what those reasons are if you know.

 

[Fabieter]

I’m interested what those reasons are if you know.

Mods, pc exclusives and more and more console games available on pc.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I seriously can't understand how they got here.

I get it, its tough if you market and execute your platform plans so poorly that you can't entice enough people onto the platform. That's on them. They made such good hardware with the series x and then flounder the launch and first two years.

Why go and buy a 70 billion dollar company to then turn around after 3 months and drop everything.

The ABK deal broke them, clearly. They thought it would be some golden goose and it ended up airing all their dirty laundry, made them look as shit as they obviously are and now they are doing this.

I legit thought they would have had some master plan, but it legit looks like Satya has just gone, nope....we just want all the cash, that's who MS is.

I get it, they will end up being huge in gaming and making shit loads of money, will dwarf everyone but at all this cost to actually pushing some innovation.

Quick start, all these awesome features, gamepass. All lost becuase for the life of them, they can't get their eggs in line.

A lot of rejoicing for many, which I get but I genuinely think we have lost any credence of MS being anything but the ms trillion dollar company now. They are going to double down on revenue and profits and, well, hopefully we get some good games but for those of us like myself who liked the hardware, I think we will lose out on some cool shit.

You're blindsided because you've ignored everyone who told you the writing is on the wall for months if not years.

When Microsoft initially sought ABK, the XBS was still selling on pace with the X1. In the last year, the market demand for XBS has cratered. We told you this was a problem, but you ignored it saying that we were doomsaying.

The problem is that they can't sustain ABK and GamePass with the current Xbox ecosystem and projected future sales. It's impossible.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

If xbox basically gets flushed I wonder how that will affect PC gaming. On the one hand Sony might stop paying for 3rd party exclusives. On the other hand they might start seeing PC, or at least Steam, as competition. Not looking forward to the Playstation storefront that's likely to come.

It makes entirely too much sense for Sony to go live with their own PC Launcher/Storefront, it makes sense for their games to be exclusive to that storefront and it even makes sense for them to support it with Day 1 releases.

• Sony makes 30 percent of revenue from all 3rd party software sales on PS5
• They could emulate this with 30 percent of revenue from all 3rd party software sales on their PC launcher
  • Competing with Steam aka why would someone use the PS5 launcher, well Sony is arguably the top software developer for mature games on the planet right now. Their games have interest. I would be surprised if they don't go live with a launcher before Spider-Man 2 comes to PC
• Steam revolt? Let's say 50 percent of the people who would buy a Sony game on Steam would buy it exclusively on their PC launcher. Let's say the Steam game would have sold 2 million copies at 60 dollars for 120 million in revenue. Sony ends up with 84 million in this case, but no residual income from 3rd party royalties. From their own store, they would get 60 million plus 3rd party royalties
• Why would developers want to put their games on Sony's launcher? First off, why not? Second, maybe Sony makes it worth their while? Maybe 25% royalties on games that are in the PS5 and PC stores. Maybe 15-20% royalties if the games are exclusive to both stores
• Sony loses money on hardware sales, so the PC Storefront would probably have a higher margin.
  • As a result, there isn't much loss involved with doing day 1 release as long as the game is exclusive to their PC storefront. Now that doesn't mean that the other PC games the person buys will be on that storefront, but I think it's worth the attempt
• Sony could probably work their exclusive deals for content to be on PS5 and PC but in their storefront only

Sony PC Storefront makes too much sense

I called this in 2022.

 

[Three]

Because if they ride the wave then they'll dominate the console space next gen.

Yes, they're losing money now, but they'll make it all back next gen and then some.

This is why I don't believe these rumours. Microsoft would have to be really dumb to go third-party and not wide the wave.

That's what I think as well - they spent years getting into the position where they can publish lots of first party games exclusively to their platforms and just as they're about to put the plan into action they change direction. .

However, every day that passes where they don't comment and more and more rumors surface makes it seem more and more plausible.

People don't realise that they don't care that much about the console space. This is the plan. They care about making money and that money is through selling services and software. They likely ran some numbers, realised that the percentage they are getting from third party fees is too small vs what they would be getting selling on other platforms. They're going to use it to sustain gamepass and the studios. Letting the console die doesn't affect them that much. it's having more of an effect on the xbox diehards who are taking this badly.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

If you really think about it, Jim Ryan making that 10-year COD deal was a major blow to MS' plans.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

How it's going:

How it started:

He's half right. People don't buy a console for exclusives. They buy it to play games that they want to play regardless of what platform they're on. Where he is wrong is, people do buy SPECIFIC consoles for exclusives.

I bought a car to drive to work not to drive fast. I bought a fast car to drive fast.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

i want to sleep but this mofos keep taking. i feel like a lab scientists studying rats behavior.

Same, I can't stop listening... this is awful too.

 

[FunkMiller]

Doing that would mean leaving the console space completely. I don't see that happening. Yes console sales a lower than expected, but are they really so bad that they're going to do a Sega? This is Microsoft. Surly they have the money to ride this out?

Ride what out? To them, it probably makes much more financial sense and potential profit to stop bothering with the hardware. You're acting like MS wouldn't see ending Xbox as a gain. At this stage, they probably would, because Phil and company fucked it. And fucked it hard.

 

[Kings Field]

 

[Yoboman]

He is actually right though. As much as i hate to say it, Maybe a quarter of console owners by exclusive titles. Most times not as much as that. We have a handful of behemoths and the crowd buys the console their friends tell them to buy to play fortnite.

Might be a crazy concept, but not everybody buys the same games

 

[Yoboman]

Man that takes me back. Maybe the worst aged video on the internet

 

[FunkMiller]

He is actually right though. As much as i hate to say it, Maybe a quarter of console owners by exclusive titles. Most times not as much as that. We have a handful of behemoths and the crowd buys the console their friends tell them to buy to play fortnite.

The Switch's sales spiked dramatically upon release of Tears Of The Kingdom.
The Playstation 5 outsells Xbox Series by at least 2 to 1.

Exclusive games absolutely are still important to console sales.

Yeah, plenty of people buy consoles just to play Fortnite. But plenty don't. Xbox have completely ignored those people for years, and look what's happened.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/in-t...et-leads-xbox-360-by-6.1660338/post-268326985


You asked me why 2024 would be a bad year for Xbox DenchDeckard , you were completely blind to reality.

That's where I think neogaf has been difficult to communicate in at times. People ignored how bad things were for Xbox for years. This future has been CLEAR AND OBVIOUS.

They can't sell units at all in Europe and Asia. Sales are really down in North America. Where did you think this was going?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

they are still going.

but it was vey insightful to listen to xbox fans.

1. this is not about the Xbox as a gaming division (this has been pretty obvious)

2. this is about people LOVING the console and being worried about the console's future.

3. game pass by itself is so detached from the xbox identity ( for old school fans). aka they want xbox console to be strong

4. they feel xbox is about a to release a shit ton of games...Why is Microsoft not allowing things to pan out?!?!?

5. Xbox offers the best value for money, its a not brainer if you are short in money or/and have a family. but there is a fundamental issue with xbox's perception, marketing, and messaging.

my take away is:

Sony is in real trouble if it weren't for Microsoft's incompetence to capture the mainstream casual market.

MS has a titanic challenge going forward. cuz Play Station is not resting on its laurels and they can accomplish what MS is trying to do in a heart beat.

 

[Bartski]

 

[jroc74]

I'm bracing myself for the potential twist that Jim Ryan shows up next to Phil and Sarah Bond saying PS exclusives will also come to Xbox

Whose gonna buy the games?

The biggest problem Xbox has right now is users expecting everything to be on Game Pass.

 

[GHG]

Well maybe if this idiot and like minded individuals didn't excuse them for releasing unfinished/subpar/underbaked games for going on a decade now then maybe they wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Because if they ride the wave then they'll dominate the console space next gen.

Yes, they're losing money now, but they'll make it all back next gen and then some.

This is why I don't believe these rumours. Microsoft would have to be really dumb to go third-party and not wide the wave.

There is no “wave”. That’s what you fail to understand. They first bet on Starfield, which didn’t move the needle AT ALL. Sure people who had Gamepass and a PC played it, but it was an ominous sign when a legendary studio couldn’t bring more people into the Xbox ecosystem. In fact console sales were DOWN from the previous year. Xbox most recent move was to drop XSX and XSS prices and while that brought an increase from previous years, they still finished last to PS and Switch. There has been no word on if this brought in new subscribers, which basically tells you it didn’t. My guess is the higher ups decided that they would rather rip the bandaid off now, while people on PS still play games like Call of Duty (let’s be real.. this is all that ABK has of real value. Games like Diablo won’t get another release until a good 7+ years) and attempt to recoup the investment.

Had the Bethesda and ABK moves been made in like 2016 and they had hired competent people to run the studios and also not released the XSS, Xbox might be in a much more competitive position.

I wanted a competitive Xbox as much as anyone else, but it’s clear that Spencer/Booty/Greenberg weren’t up to the task and I think 3rd party is they’re only move.

 

[FeralEcho]

What in the fuckery-doo am I looking at?

A cunt

 

[Ar¢tos]

Because if they ride the wave then they'll dominate the console space next gen.

Yes, they're losing money now, but they'll make it all back next gen and then some.

This is why I don't believe these rumours. Microsoft would have to be really dumb to go third-party and not wide the wave.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

Gutted I'm in meetings all day tomorrow.

 

[DenchDeckard]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/in-t...et-leads-xbox-360-by-6.1660338/post-268326985


You asked me why 2024 would be a bad year for Xbox DenchDeckard , you were completely blind to reality.

That's where I think neogaf has been difficult to communicate in at times. People ignored how bad things were for Xbox for years. This future has been CLEAR AND OBVIOUS.

They can't sell units at all in Europe and Asia. Sales are really down in North America. Where did you think this was going?

Hey, a lot of people got it wrong. I'm guilty of, expecting MS to give it a good go after all these acquisitions and not just pull the chute, not even 2 months into 2024. But i am a grown assed man. I can happily admit I got it wrong.

Until, I officially lose all of my past purchases on Xbox it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I have never had a problem with people being able to play games where they want and like I said, if this keeps people employed then cool.

I guess I thought Microsoft had more fight in them to try and build something after spending all this money but I guess the bubble burst post covid. So many layoffs, no growth for Xbox or gaming in general. I guess the writings now just well and truly chiselled into the wall.

The reality is, everyone will be fine and can enjoy the games they want to enjoy, wherever they play. It's only going to be a good thing as MS will have to make sure their releases are up to scratch on these platforms.