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Cliffy B says things about microtransactions

freddy

Banned
lol GAF got destroyed.

lol people that feel like they "won" because they got a games person to tweet about them need to reevaluate their life.

lol it was funny. Get over it. And Neogaf IS filled with clowns who post here all day thinking they're gaming industry experts because they visit gamasutra and follow their favorite gaming personas on twitter. :D

it's twitter who cares. Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkSUQEMwV4

dude's a great speaker. I don't need to defend him though, he's more successful than 90% of the bitter people in this thread will ever be. :D

so angry lol.

I think it's hilarious that people take issue with his behavior.

he probably doesn't GAF about GAF (haha see what I did there?) because so many people here are so jaded and bitter.

nah he probably just thinks this community is garbage, honestly.

So you basically came on here to say "I love CliffyB. Stop being mean to him or I'll insult you?
 

C.Monkey

Banned
So you basically came on here to say "I love CliffyB. Stop being mean to him or I'll insult you?
I'm only making fun of people who are bitter and jaded. So if anyone feels Im making fun of them, Im sorry you consider yourself jaded and bitter and take my posts as being directed at you. ;(
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Guys, roughly half of C.Monkey's entire post history is insulting or trolling GAF or GAF users in some fashion. I wouldn't bother.
 

Zabka

Member
I like it here. Sometimes. Like when people are actually enthusiastic and not posting like they have a fork up their ass. The Michael Pachter threads are pretty painful to read for example.

But genuine game discussion is awesome.
Nobody is forcing you to read industry threads.
 

Yagharek

Member
I like it here. Sometimes. Like when people are actually enthusiastic and not posting like they have a fork up their ass. The Michael Pachter threads are pretty painful to read for example.

But genuine game discussion is awesome.

You should try it sometime
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
It's not really about being cocky or arrogant (lol I have a Jobs avatar for god's sake), it's more about his juvenile behavior (Twitter stuff that wouldn't be out of place on a 14 year old's Facebook -- "~haters gonna hate~ i got da good life meme.jpg") and general complete inability to respond like a grown individual. He got called on his poorly constructed argument here and his fallbacks were basically: play it off by accusing the other party of talking about games more than playing them because they were smart enough to see all the holes in his bad argument, insulting a degree/employment status that he picked out because ?, or saying nothing.

It really does just reinforce a negative image of gaming. For overgrown children, by overgrown children.
 
I think both models are quite possibly dead ends for higher budget games.

Great Points.

We are in a pretty ugly time in the industry in so far as costs and economics. Publishers are just trying every monotization under the sun. When all games have IAPs they may lose all value. There is always a threshold and we will reach it.

It makes perfect sense in $1 iOS titles. The entertainment value I got out of Fruit Ninja for $1 was ridiculous so when they put IAPs in there it was my way of giving a little more back. The balance of the game competitively was ruined though but who is serious about Fruit Ninja?

When the game price rises and the audience has shrunk in the case of Section 8 Prejudice I would have thrown them another $10+ for some nice skins or whatever. That game had a small fanbase and its only means of getting cash was buying the game or buying a map pack. Both of which the fans got anyway. That is where support ended because that is all that was on offer.

The $60 game with iOS style grinding design would be sickening.

DLC is a whole other situation. Rarely is day 1 DLC sleazy if it is art or map based. It just means they rolled the artists off the core game 3 month prior to final and gave them a little project to complete as a bridge job.
 

MormaPope

Banned
nah he probably just thinks this community is garbage, honestly.

What community fits him then? Unreal Tournament fan sites? Gears of War forums? His Twitter followers?

I like how there are some awesome ass communities out there on the internet Cliff isn't trying to reach, yet his message got to this so called garbage place and people actually listened to him. His audience isn't that large, Cliff isn't really well known by the masses, so it would be common sense not to shit where you eat.

It seems like you're eating the shit he's shitting though, win-win for the both of you.
 
DLC is a whole other situation. Rarely is day 1 DLC sleazy if it is art or map based. It just means they rolled the artists off the core game 3 month prior to final and gave them a little project to complete as a bridge job.

I don't agree with this at all.

Why isn't day 1 DLC free if the artists are already on the payroll? Their salaries are already budgeted at the start of the fiscal year. Why aren't you managing your workforce to roll artists onto new projects after going gold if you absolutely must monetize their time? No company wants staff just sitting on their hands for months at a time, and that also goes for people who aren't making maps, costumes or guns, i.e. the actual designers and developers. There is always a "next" project. There has to be.

And I consider day 1 and especially on-disc DLC sleazy because if publishers were honest about their costs they would simply spread the cost over the entire userbase and charge an extra couple of bucks for every copy. It's easier to calculate the ROI on an initial shipment of discs than to guess how much DLC you will sell on an unknown number of end-user sales. If the argument that DLC is a necessary evil to stop people selling their copy is valid, then there's simply no argument for day 1 DLC to exist at all. It would logically be held back.

The truth is all DLC exists to nickel and dime consumers, and it is always sold at a price unrelated to its cost of production. It's never just a bridge job. Maybe some games would become less viable with DLC. Who knows. But it's hard to side with publishers when you have ambassadors like Cliff crying poor on their behalf on the one hand, while on the other bragging about their expensive car on Twitter. Somebody in this picture is misrepresenting themselves.
 
I don't agree with this at all.

Why isn't day 1 DLC free if the artists are already on the payroll? Their salaries are already budgeted at the start of the fiscal year.

Because they are not budgeted like that. They are budgeted for the project and when the project proper is up they are rolled off of it.

You have to remember that a developer only makes a 20% margin on a work for hire dev deal and that is if it goes smoothly. Developers want staff off the game as quick as possible so they can be put on a different budget. DLC usually comes with its own budget. Also, you want non essential people out of your Source Control so the software engineers can land the plane smoothly.

You can then take the artists and have them crank in a seperate Source Control where they can simply create against an established design. They now have a library of assets and proven workflows as well as two years of project knowledge that allows them to build extremely fast which is why they can have it wrapped up on day 1 if they want to. The DLC is budgeted at a couple hundred grand and is sold for $5-$10. If the DLC pays off the DLC budget then you know it was worth doing. If it is all a rambling muddle of unbroken dev you don't know what your costs were.

Even producers at big companies like EA shuffle people around all the time to get them off one game and onto the other so that budgets are adheared to.

DLC also lets people keep their jobs longer. These people would be let go sooner if they were not put onto projects that kept the property going past its completion date. You need these people busy because if they are full time the last thing you want is your creative design team to be saddled with a team of 200 burning cash going into preproduction on their next game.
 
Because they are not budgeted like that. They are budgeted for the project and when the project proper is up they are rolled off of it.

You have to remember that a developer only makes a 20% margin on a work for hire dev deal and that is if it goes smoothly. Developers want staff off the game as quick as possible so they can be put on a different budget. DLC usually comes with its own budget. Also, you want non essential people out of your Source Control so the software engineers can land the plane smoothly.

You can then take the artists and have them crank in a seperate Source Control where they can simply create against an established design. They now have a library of assets and proven workflows as well as two years of project knowledge that allows them to build extremely fast which is why they can have it wrapped up on day 1 if they want to. The DLC is budgeted at a couple hundred grand and is sold for $5-$10. If the DLC pays off the DLC budget then you know it was worth doing. If it is all a rambling muddle of unbroken dev you don't know what your costs were.

Even producers at big companies like EA shuffle people around all the time to get them off one game and onto the other so that budgets are adheared to.

DLC also lets people keep their jobs longer. These people would be let go sooner if they were not put onto projects that kept the property going past its completion date. You need these people busy because if they are full time the last thing you want is your creative design team to be saddled with a team of 200 burning cash going into preproduction on their next game.

I don't work in game development, I work in finance so take my comments on the industry with a grain of salt. But a couple of things stick out as BS here, or at the very least unlikely to be true for all kinds of DLC.

First point, DLC budgets. The case of Street Fighter X Tekken springs to mind. Characters in games like this are not designed in a vacuum, they are tweaked against the entire cast as those characters take shape. It's why when a "Super" release adds characters the existing cast all get tweaked as part of the process. You can be assured that there was no 80/20 split on the cast budget here because it is literally impossible to distinguish between the effort spent on different characters as the game goes through location tests. You can't measure anything from DLC sales here. And because they shipped completed on the disc it also didn't solve the "idle staff" problem you mention. Conclusion: DLC budgets aren't alwasy fixed and DLC sales can't always be used as a measure of productivity. Industry mouthpieces can't be trusted about DLC budgets.

Second point, pre-production. You're right, you don't want teams of designers and developers burning cash doing nothing while the next project takes shape. But that's also why business deals are struck before they ever reach project managers, and why analysis and project plans are laid out before IT resources are allocated, i.e. while your team is still working on the last project. No project I've ever worked on allocates resources before they're required, and no company I've ever worked for forms business strategies for anything less than a year. 3-5 years is typical, and 3 months would be laughable. Unless game development companies have very poor management the next project should have been initiated before the current one even went gold. Conclusion: this should be a non-issue and if you need day 1 DLC to keep your staff employed then your company is bottom heavy and in need of restructuring.
 

aganu

Member
Since you mentioned EviLore possibly taking issue earlier, I believe it is fair to say that he [as well as the mods] can take a punch and has no problem going head to head without handing out bans over most of the routine bickering going on here. You also singled Cliff out for falling back on a ridiculous meme, which seems a bit selective, though we may have found additonal common ground here. Spamming ten-year-old pictures of his detractors is clearly the way to go.
I don't think the mere purpose of posting that old photo of him is to detract or belittle him, it's an interesting photo and people on the internet have been doing it for amusement's sake, you can even sometimes see it posted to express excitement over a game he makes. It's in no way equal to responding with "look at all these fucks I give" image to well-thought and articulate counter arguments.
 
Alright, you got me. Some people are talking about his car or something, what does that have to do with what I've been saying in general?

Is it that difficult for you to simply concede a point without having to deflect? You clearly knew what I was referring to and there was nothing general about it. You said that nobody was bitter about his success, yet his car continues to come up. Your "or something" wasn't necessary, either. I disagree with plenty of what you have said, though I chose to address where you obviously misspoke, as to avoid another round of you throwing out callow accusations of hero worship being the only reason for not attacking Cliff's point of view.
 
I like it here. Sometimes. Like when people are actually enthusiastic and not posting like they have a fork up their ass. The Michael Pachter threads are pretty painful to read for example.

But genuine game discussion is awesome.

You'd prefer a community of brown-nosers that enthusiastically munch on whatever shit comes out of a developer's asshole? Good for you.
 

Tellaerin

Member
nah he probably just thinks this community is garbage, honestly.

I suppose he's right, if he defines "garbage" as "people who actually challenge his arguments rather than fawning over him and agreeing with whatever he says because he makes vidyagaems".

I'm a long-time Epic fan. I think Cliff's a talented designer with some great ideas, and by all accounts he's a decent guy. I also think he's way off base here (Htown's post summed up my thoughts better than I could've done myself), and the whole "La la la, I'm going to go drive around in my EXPENSIVE CAR with my PRETTY WIFE now and ignore anyone who disagrees with me because they're clearly trolls" bit doesn't exactly make him look good here.

To be honest, though, I don't think that blog post of his was really written with the average gamer in mind. I think it's more for the benefit of his peers in the industry. He's preaching to the converted - offering up justifications for the direction they're pushing things in now, and attempting to paint consumers who object as naive or "entitled". He also seems to be suggesting that while "voting with your dollars" is fine, that's all anyone should do - "buy or don't buy, but shut up and stop drawing peoples' attention to the issue" seems to be the unwritten implication, which is pretty sad.

I'd love for CliffyB to prove me wrong here. I'd really like to see him step up and defend his arguments, to hear him explain why he thinks folks like Htown are off-base rather than dismissing them out of hand. From what I've seen so far, though, I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
It's not really about being cocky or arrogant (lol I have a Jobs avatar for god's sake), it's more about his juvenile behavior (Twitter stuff that wouldn't be out of place on a 14 year old's Facebook -- "~haters gonna hate~ i got da good life meme.jpg") and general complete inability to respond like a grown individual. He got called on his poorly constructed argument here and his fallbacks were basically: play it off by accusing the other party of talking about games more than playing them because they were smart enough to see all the holes in his bad argument, insulting a degree/employment status that he picked out because ?, or saying nothing.

It really does just reinforce a negative image of gaming. For overgrown children, by overgrown children.

Good post from a good citizen.
 
I hate microtransactions, I never buy a iPhone game that sells Ingame purchases. I just cant handle it, I like to pay ONCE for my games not multiple times.
 
I suppose he's right, if he defines "garbage" as "people who actually challenge his arguments rather than fawning over him and agreeing with whatever he says because he makes vidyagaems".

I'm a long-time Epic fan. I think Cliff's a talented designer with some great ideas, and by all accounts he's a decent guy. I also think he's way off base here (Htown's post summed up my thoughts better than I could've done myself), and the whole "La la la, I'm going to go drive around in my EXPENSIVE CAR with my PRETTY WIFE now and ignore anyone who disagrees with me because they're clearly trolls" bit doesn't exactly make him look good here.

To be honest, though, I don't think that blog post of his was really written with the average gamer in mind. I think it's more for the benefit of his peers in the industry. He's preaching to the converted - offering up justifications for the direction they're pushing things in now, and attempting to paint consumers who object as naive or "entitled". He also seems to be suggesting that while "voting with your dollars" is fine, that's all anyone should do - "buy or don't buy, but shut up and stop drawing peoples' attention to the issue" seems to be the unwritten implication, which is pretty sad.

I'd love for CliffyB to prove me wrong here. I'd really like to see him step up and defend his arguments, to hear him explain why he thinks folks like Htown are off-base rather than dismissing them out of hand. From what I've seen so far, though, I'm not going to hold my breath.

If we had more posts articulated such as Htown's much earlier, this all may have been less combative. The thread was somewhat grounded in the subject at hand, though it elevated far beyond microtransactions early and often. By the time Htown broke it down, reasonable discussion with Cliff's involvement could have been a tall order when after such a well thought out post it seemed like there was as many responses in agreement as of those that just wanted to celebrate it as it made them feel that Cliff had been "defeated," as if this was really only about "winning."

What I found odd from the get go was Cliff wasn't the one who brought here, yet he was expected to respond to it here and to some anything less was a true sign of cowardice. I personally found the snarky non-sequitors and name calling much more fitting examples.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Is it that difficult for you to simply concede a point without having to deflect? You clearly knew what I was referring to and there was nothing general about it. You said that nobody was bitter about his success, yet his car continues to come up. Your "or something" wasn't necessary, either. I disagree with plenty of what you have said, though I chose to address where you obviously misspoke, as to avoid another round of you throwing out callow accusations of hero worship being the only reason for not attacking Cliff's point of view.

That's not even enough proof to say if someone is bitter over his success, and besides, Cliff is provoking people. Also expecting someone to actually speak for everyone is absurd, I guess I was speaking for the majority then.
 
That's not even enough proof to say if someone is bitter over his success, and besides, Cliff is provoking people. Also expecting someone to actually speak for everyone is absurd, I guess I was speaking for the majority then.

I cannot tell if you are agreeing with me or not, as you already did earlier, yet now sound like you may be offering a revision? You specifically said nobody is bitter. I doubt you were really concerned with accuracy, though I wanted to point out your selective acceptance of group representation by a single individual when using it to attempt to further your point.
 

manzo

Member
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)

And here you are, whining with us. How about you get out of your basement and make us some goddamn videogames you bum!

<3
 

Psi

Member
If we had more posts articulated such as Htown's much earlier, this all may have been less combative. The thread was somewhat grounded in the subject at hand, though it elevated far beyond microtransactions early and often. By the time Htown broke it down, reasonable discussion with Cliff's involvement could have been a tall order when after such a well thought out post it seemed like there was as many responses in agreement as of those that just wanted to celebrate it as it made them feel that Cliff had been "defeated," as if this was really only about "winning."

It was never going to be any less combative. Cliff derailed the thread himself starting on the first page. I think he responded to maybe one brief thing about his article, which IMO was never intended for any kind of reasonable exchange.

What I found odd from the get go was Cliff wasn't the one who brought here, yet he was expected to respond to it here and to some anything less was a true sign of cowardice. I personally found the snarky non-sequitors and name calling much more fitting examples.

I doubt this thread was created with any kind of expectation for Cliff to post in it. He also mentioned GAF directly by name in his article, so it's not so strange that someone posted it here. People were calling him cowardly because he showed up here mostly to troll, then when actual constructive posts were made he abandoned the thread to brag and troll more on twitter.

The level of posting Cliff himself made in this thread doesn't warrant the level of defense you're giving him. If he was a regular GAF poster he probably would have been banned.
 
It was never going to be any less combative. Cliff derailed the thread himself starting on the first page. I think he responded to maybe one brief thing about his article, which IMO was never intended for any kind of reasonable exchange.



I doubt this thread was created with any kind of expectation for Cliff to post in it. He also mentioned GAF directly by name in his article, so it's not so strange that someone posted it here. People were calling him cowardly because he showed up here mostly to troll, then when actual constructive posts were made he abandoned the thread to brag and troll more on twitter.

The level of posting Cliff himself made in this thread doesn't warrant the level of defense you're giving him. If he was a regular GAF poster he probably would have been banned.

My "defense" of Cliff was equally my disgust for watching the gang mentality derail so many threads and the approval it reaps. Of course, Cliff brought some of this on himself, though some act as if nothing was done to provoke him. He mentioned GAF at first, so what. Accountability is all the rage. Every now and then those who spend so much time calling out get called out. Are you going to tell me that nobody meets the criteria he referenced? Throw the no-hive defense in the trash. Posters have no problem with the collective when it benefits them.

I just skimmed through a few hundred posts and noticed only one ban, which was awarded to neither of the people who called him a douche/douchebag. I have no idea how those who insulted his wife fared? In real time I hadn't noticed many casualties, so I believe the claims (not just yours) of preferential treatment lack merit.
 

FlyFaster

Member
You know I never read any of these Cliff B threads because I thought it was pretty lame to go ape shit every time one dude opens his mouth.

Against my better judgement I read the microtransaction tumbler and... damn, he actually has some good shit to say.

Hard to argue against "don't buy it if you don't like it"

That's an extremely sound argument.


P.S. I'm one of those unemployed philosophy grads. :( (tho not as young as from 2008 lol)
 

inky

Member
I have to line up in a queue to play Sim City. Thank god for EA. Cliffy, tell me how this is for my benefit.

To be fair, he kind of never said it was. He said it was for theirs and that you had to deal with it, or not buy their shit.

I decided for the second because I saw that one coming with SC long ago, among other things it does poorly.
 

Mrbob

Member
Yeah, I know. It was a round about, snarky way of me suggesting that premise is terrible in the first place.

"Hey look, sequel to popular franchise! No one will buy it!" Well I guess less people will buy Sim City 6. But we already own Sim City 5. Fool me once. EA clowns ruining another franchise.
 

Apath

Member
"buy or don't buy, but shut up and stop drawing peoples' attention to the issue" seems to be the unwritten implication, which is pretty sad.
This is exactly my issue with these kinds of arguments. What are people trying to say when they dismiss people's arguments/complaints/outcries by stating "vote with your wallet"? It's as if these people believe the video game industry is a vacuum where all other standards do not apply.
You know I never read any of these Cliff B threads because I thought it was pretty lame to go ape shit every time one dude opens his mouth.

Against my better judgement I read the microtransaction tumbler and... damn, he actually has some good shit to say.

Hard to argue against "don't buy it if you don't like it"

That's an extremely sound argument.


P.S. I'm one of those unemployed philosophy grads. :( (tho not as young as from 2008 lol)

And? I'm sure people who don't like it enough will not buy the game. But is that enough to dismiss arguments and outcry? People have a right to voice their opinions. In fact, it's how voting works in every aspect of society -- even politics. A major role in democracy is trying to get other people to fit your mind set so your views/ideas succeed. Because frankly one vote alone is not enough for change. How are video games different where suddenly people should shut their mouths and not say anything at all, and simply just "don't buy it if you don't like it"?
 

SamorTails

Neo Member
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)

Yeah, I do, but had time to post here while waiting for my cars to get repaired in Real Racing 3.
I'm voting with my wallet.
 

Goldmund

Member
You know I never read any of these Cliff B threads because I thought it was pretty lame to go ape shit every time one dude opens his mouth.

Against my better judgement I read the microtransaction tumbler and... damn, he actually has some good shit to say.

Hard to argue against "don't buy it if you don't like it"

That's an extremely sound argument.


P.S. I'm one of those unemployed philosophy grads. :( (tho not as young as from 2008 lol)
It's not a sound argument at all; it falls apart as soon as you take even the tiniest step away from a purely abstract sphere where virtually anything will hold true. If you're a philosophy grad, I'd expect you to do a little thinking before patting Cliffy on the back. If we disregard who is doing what and why, which isn't very far from the principle you provided (even in your shorthand version we know a little bit about what is done, and can surmise who is doing it), of course you can't argue against it, because it itself isn't arguing anything it says it is (which amounts to "None of your business!").

You don't even have to go so far as to replace "it" with "child pornography" to tear down such an ignorant line of thinking (something Cliffy carefully avoided by being more concrete regarding this aspect); every context that has at least some semblance of reality will be an acid bath for it. Others have already shown why, but let me reiterate.

This specific argument deliberately ignores how a purchase of something that's bad for us can and often does come to pass by the cunning and deceptive information management of the seller and the general conditions under which he is allowed to operate. The ideal case where the buyer knows what he's buying and why is borderline impossible, exactly because who is purchasing, what he is purchasing, and why are not independent from our socio-economic reality.
 

EinSof

Member
I am going to try my best to avoid invoking Natural's Law in this post, but we'll see how it goes.

Let's start at the beginning.


No one denies that businesses exist to make money. The entire point of the position you're arguing against is that there are good ways to make money and bad ways to make money. There are are business models that a pro-consumer and anti-consumer. The problem arises when you start to use the "free market" as a "free pass." The mere fact that a business needs to make money is not an inherent and impenetrable defense for all of the actions that business decides to take in order to further that goal. Snake oil salesmen were trying to make money as well.

This "free market" defense is tied to Cliffy's later argument, so I'll save the rest of the problems with that for later.


This is not because developers and publishers are doing gamers a favor by releasing cheap games. It's because:
1. Demand for video games is relatively elastic, particularly in the weak economy of the past few years. This is also why used game sales are so popular. If publishers thought they could get away with a higher sticker price, they would hike that price up.
2. Older game prices were artificially inflated by the costs of the cartridge media they were shipped on.


This is a cute comparison game makers love to make, largely because movies are the only form of entertainment media with which the value comparison works. Unfortunately, the comparison completely falls apart when you bring television or books into the equation, let alone service-based entertainment like Netflix or Hulu.


Aside from a brief moment where Cliffy confuses extravagance of budget for quality of content, a misconception shared by movie titans like Michael Bay, this is basically just saying that games are expensive to make, and therefore companies need to make money.

Of course they do. But again, no one is saying they don't. There are good ways to go about it, and bad ways to go about it.


This is where we can see CliffyB's unwillingness to look past the most obvious surface similarities coming back to bite him. Yes, Valve and EA are both companies. Yes, they both conduct business with the goal of making money. If you want to put more thought into this subject than a third-grader, however, it's quite easy to see where the difference lies.

1.There is a difference between adding microtransactions to a free product in order to make money from it and adding microtransactions to a product for which the customer has already paid 60 dollars. This should be self-evident.
2. There is also a difference between charging for optional cosmetic items and charging for game content. Video games are an interactive medium. This means content that effects the interactivity of the game is fundamentally different from content that only effects the visual look of the game. In Team Fortress 2, for example, Valve makes all items that effect the interactivity of the game (weapons, maps, game modes) available to players for free. The "ring" you're speaking of is an example of the cosmetic items Valve sells that have no impact on the actual gameplay.

Valve put up this web page detailing the 119 free updates (both patches and increased content) they had made to Team Fortress 2. That was three years ago, and they still haven't stopped.

We know exactly how EA responds in a similar situation. Battlefield 3 was a 60 dollar product, and they ask the user base to pay for every additional set of maps and content.

If you bought TF2 on day one, it's price was 20 bucks. Final price for experiencing all of its content is 20 bucks. If you bought Battlefield 3 on day one, its price was 60 bucks. Final price for experiencing all of its content is upwards of 110 bucks.

But nope, no difference there.


Another strawman. No one's saying that making money is inherently evil. It's not an inherent good, either. Commerce is, in and of itself, a morally neutral concept. It comes down to the way you go about it.

I do find it interesting that CliffyB lambasts those who think that running a business is inherently evil, while using "it's a business" as an inherent good that supposedly makes complaints irrelevant.


Yes. Steam sucked at first. People hated it at first. So why are you surprised that people hate EA's offering at first?

Also, two things:
1. Origin is not competing with the Steam of 2004. It's competing with the Steam of 2013. "They also had crappy service nearly a decade ago" is not a valid defense of current product/platform policies, prices and performance.
2. Origin isn't that new. Everybody in the games press and industry fell for the rebranding, I guess. I still remember EA Download Manager, even if you guys don't.


Different people, obviously, than the ones complaining about it. This is just more "don't like it, don't buy it" nonsense, though.


"A lot of people don't care" is not a statement that has any bearing on the rightness or wrongness of any situation.


I love Free 2 Play. I've got no less than 5 F2P games installed on my hard drive right now.

Just like everything else, there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.

And all of it is different than adding microtransactions to a game that the customer is already paying money for.


The games industry is not the same as the music industry, first of all. I hate to break it to you. There are many, many ways in which they have faced and will face entirely different situations. This post is already long as hell so I won't go into them.


Another strawman. No one is suggesting that all games should be used games. (Not that this makes sense even as a hypothetical. If everyone bought games used, there'd be no new buyers to get used games from.) However, as I've said before, there's a right way and a wrong way.


People didn't have to buy snake oil, either. That doesn't mean the snake oil salesman wasn't shady for selling it.


I don't think you're remembering this correctly, Cliff.


Great.

Also irrelevant.


Hey, uh...

Arcades are dead, man. A very large reason for that because people realized that it was more convenient for them to go buy the home console version of the arcade game, pay that one-time fee and access everything at their own pace.


So here's his bottom line: if you don't like it, don't buy it. The implication is that if everyone votes with their dollars, the free market will take care of itself.

The only problem is that it doesn't work that way, has never worked that way, and will never work that way.

The free market is not a perfect self-correcting entity. If you think a business is being scummy about what they're offering, the correct response is to both not buy what they're selling and spread the word that they're being scummy and why.

Ask yourself this: why do organisms like the Food and Drug Administration and the SEC exist, accusations of corruption aside? Why do we try to break up monopolies whenever possible? It's because there are certain things the free market is not good at, protecting consumers chief among them.

There are many, MANY things that "vote with your wallet" will not solve. In theory, the free market should weed out any unsafe medicines that make it to store shelves eventually, so let's get rid of all safety checks and vote with our wallets. Companies defrauding people on a scale to match Enron? Don't like it, don't buy the stock. It'll work itself out eventually. A company has a monopoly on a necessary product? Don't worry about it, you don't need oil anyway. Vote with your wallet. That guy's running a pyramid scheme? Whatever, man. No need to get your panties all in a bunch. Don't like it, don't join it. No need to broadcast why it's a bad idea or anything.


So what are you trying to say here? You break down his arguments, but you do not present a cohesive stance on what it is you are arguing about. All I gathered from this is you just wanted to prove him wrong, but wrong about what?

That EA is still the devil? They are a bad and vile company? You cannot not vote with your dollars, so instead you need to create memes to voice your discontent?
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
So what are you trying to say here? You break down his arguments, but you do not present a cohesive stance on what it is you are arguing about. All I gathered from this is you just wanted to prove him wrong, but wrong about what?

That EA is still the devil? They are a bad and vile company? You cannot not vote with your dollars, so instead you need to create memes to voice your discontent?
He's engaging in a debate and his arguments are cogent.

The conclusion is arguing why "voting with your dollars" alone is often not enough to bring change in the free market, by using comparisons and examples. It's not likely that micro transactions will be regulated, short of gambling, but spreading consumer awareness of unsavory industry practices (and why they're unsavory) might prove to be effective.
 

Xbudz

Member
Dismissing arguments and consumer dissatisfaction on a discussion forum with a sweeping hand of "just vote with your wallet and shut up; you're not relevant" is up there toward the height of stupidity, especially when it's being framed on your blog in between soapboxing about what you think the video game industry should be doing differently. Have some perspective.

... incredible post.

Has Cliffy managed to get a blindingly huge ego on his way up?
 

EinSof

Member
He's engaging in a debate and his arguments are cogent.

The conclusion is arguing why "voting with your dollars" alone is often not enough to bring change in the free market, by using comparisons and examples. It's not likely that micro transactions will be regulated, short of gambling, but spreading consumer awareness of unsavory industry practices (and why they're unsavory) might prove to be effective.

Its funny you think that's the conclusion because that's not even Cliff Blezinkski's main point or what he was getting at (which he states is voting with your dollars, when its not really).

So many people here talk about game development from so many different standpoints, and think that because they can deduce their own logic that it applies. You guys have no idea what the video game industry is like. Most video game developer's I know who read that CliffB's post came to a much different conclusion than what people gather here, and I find it funny how you guys think you know what game developer's think and do when you do not partake in it as well.

Regardless of how feel about CliffB, what he says is true. He is an industry veteran who has been through the thick of it. I do not enjoy his personality, but he understands game development. He's created multiple triple AAA games. He knows his stuff.

DLC is absolutely necessary. Game development costs has risen astronomically over the past decade. Computer Graphics is not cheap. Its a lot of fixed overhead, with a variable outcome. Studios need DLC.
 

troushers

Member
It's not likely that micro transactions will be regulated, short of gambling, (...)

It has already happened in Japan, which seems to be running a few years ahead of the western industry. I think regulation is likely in a piecemeal fashion, on a territory by territory basis, because there is no force pushing back against companies developing ever more awful schemes.

You can see awareness slowly increasing, with the plethora of "my kid accidentally spent 1,000 dollars on this free iOS game" articles. Apple recently settled a class action lawsuit rather than having it challenged in court. These are rumblings, and I'm pretty sure regulation is only an ambitious, opportunistic politician away. Are there any in the country where you live?
 
I'd be surprised if we see any regulation here in the US outside of perhaps some protection for minors but since the practice is so mainstream in the mobile market, the worst offenders may force some action in Europe.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
There's a difference between wanting, and feeling like you're missing out on content. It's more weighing whether or not the "added" (withheld) content is worth the extra cost over what you already paid. I doubt the majority of people who pay for DLC actually want it in it's current form.

I'm not talking about obvious things like alternate costumes or weapons that aren't anything special other than a different model either.
Yeah, that is true. I agree with that. I dont think that it microtransactions are exactly requested indeed, i just ment that as long as the microtransactions are being presented and are available for purchase, people are willing to pay for it, and therefor want it in that sense. Much of these microtransaction stuff works as time savers, and i guess that many people are willing to pay to save some time doing the grinding in the game(s). I guess maybe "time is money" can be used in this case hehe :)

I am sorry for the very late reply by the way. I remembered that i didnt get around to reply earlier.
 
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