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Cliffy B says things about microtransactions

D

DocSeuss

Member
One of the big problems with this, I think, is putting your eggs in one basket.

Publisher: "oh, hey, lots of people use microtransactions and enjoy F2P! Let's make games they like!"

Customer: "but I don't want those things..." *stops buying those games*

Publisher just lost part of their audience in pursuit of making one kind of game that appeals to a specific demographic. Shouldn't a wider variety of experiences that appeal to different demographics and interest groups be good?

It's like how so many people are focused on competitive multiplayer these days, and totally ignoring the fact that expressive fun-based games have a huge appeal, and when done well (Minecraft, Skyrim, Arkham City), they sell like bonkers. Most publishers are interested in chasing the Uncharteds or Leagues, so they completely ignore this market.
 
W

wrowa

Member
Eh... He completely ignores the problems people have with microtransactions and such.

He wonders why people regard Valve as the good guys even though they charge for TF2 hats while EA is regarded as evil for shoehorning microtransactions into their games... Really? He doesn't see the difference between a free to play game that only charges for cosmetic items and an atmospheric, full-price shooter like Dead Space 3 telling the player every few minutes that he should buy some weapons in its sparkling real-money shop? There's a difference between sensible microtransactions and ones that make the player feel ripped-off. Valve does it mostly the right way, while EA does not. It's quite simple.

Gamers, or GAF users for that matter, aren't stupid. We know that videogames are a business. We know that developers need to make money to stay alive. However, that doesn't mean that the consumer has to silently accept every new way publishers try to get our money.

He speaks about the games we love, but he doesn't realize that a lot of the people who are complaining are the ones who aren't satisfied with the "one size for all" AAA game development of these days. Publisher spend more and more money on the development of a single game, but are the games better because of it? Many people would argue that games are becoming more and more interchangeable instead of better. The development budget rises, but the personal value isn't. And guess what? That's not our problem. It's not our fault that publishers like Ubisoft are throwing around with 600 man teams that kill every last bit of individuality a project once had.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
NZNova said:
I would argue the issue is the fact that publishers CAN push too far and people WILL still spend money on it, because video gamers have poor impulse control and are willing to go along with it because they gotta have the latest game.
Click to expand...

Could well be true.

Will be an interesting balancing act over the next few years.
 
R

Reiko

Banned
CliffyB said:
TOO BAD MOTHERFUCKER!
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tonystarejeml.gif
 
-COOLIO-

-COOLIO-

The Everyman
CliffyB said:
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)
Click to expand...

you think this isnt a game!?

but for real, i need more innovative stuff before i play more games. it's time to make that love story, time travel game you were pondering in the 2000s.
 
A

AcceptableGhost

Member
Nothing will make me exit this hobby faster than looking at the new releases and all of them have become prettier versions of the worst, most egregious and manipulative mobile games we have now.
 
S

SiskoKid

Member
whatsinaname said:
Two things.

1) No one is (or should be) complaining about micro-transactions for cosmetic items.

2) Someone on Slashdot put it perfectly. If people are paying money to not play parts of your game (for XP/jumping levels), what does it say about your game?
Click to expand...

On your second point, that's an easy answer. As people get older, they simply don't have the time they used to to play through an entire game. Sometimes there are parts in a game they want to skip. Maybe it's because they realize they'll have to grind too long, or maybe they just wanna get to the next story point.

Either way, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a reflection of bad game design. If you have the time and enjoy grinding, that has been basic game design for decades. Just because someone is now allowing someone to pay money to skip through those things doesn't mean they're evil or bad game developers.
 
F

Foffy

Banned
Heaven forbid they see our digital roadmap for the future and try to get on board the “games as services” movement.
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Maybe I'm being over analytical here, but I find that idea to be disturbing. Is the market even asking for games to become a service, or is this what the big companies want to make even bigger profits? I've never once heard of an interest towards something like that outside of someone working on the development/publishing side.
 
A

AnonymousTipster

Neo Member
This is kind of related to Cliffy's point about EA being vilified while Valve gets a free pass for almost anything - how come no one makes (or made) a stink about the insane amount of micro-transactions in Uncharted 3 (which were around even before the multiplayer went free to play)?

I have no problem with micro-transactions in theory, but in Uncharted 3 you can directly buy power (treasure set weapons), and that's shitty. Other games have been raked over the coals for a lot less.
 
N

NullPointer

Member
CliffyB said:
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)
Click to expand...
Bitch about nickle and diming by day, love every bit of playing Mark of the Ninja and co-op Spartan Ops and Syndicate at night.

It works ;P
 
S

Salsa

Member
stuff EA has been publicly known to do:

- Day one DLC
- Online pass
- Reashing IPs till they are milked to death
- After said IP is milked, gut the studio
- Ban Origin account when EA forum account is banned
- Force multiplayer on products, against developer's will
- Shut down servers early

gee, I wonder why people seem to have strong feelings about them when compared to Valve. Surely it's just the appareance.

C'mon cliff, I get what you mean in broad terms and I agree with it, but dont get silly.


Valve is a business no doubt, and I dont share that sort of godly reverence some people have for it.

But the reason people like them better is because they are smarter business. Not because of appareances.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
Gen X said:
I agree but when gameplay and enjoyment is affected by micro transactions........

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-28-real-racing-3-review



Someone on Eurogamer worked it out. 104 races to save for that one upgrade, plus all the realtime oil changes.

Or you could make a micro transaction to buy the part since there is no enjoyment winning 104 races just to go through the same shit again in another tier.
Click to expand...
I was only thinking about retail priced games, i should have mentioned that, sorry. Real Racing 3 is Free To Play if i'm not mistaken, and those games can be designed a lot more around the use of micro transactions indeed.
 
S

smik

Member
Glix said:
He doesn't address AT ALL the shady shit that has been done

He doesn't talk about games being released incomplete. He doesn't talk about Season Passes that don't pan out. He doesn't talk about content being removed from the game to act as DLC.

There is a reason that no one complains about The Walking Dead and having to pay for each episode.

We're not stupid Cliffy.
Click to expand...

^^This

Also, his former Employer EPIC Games are doing this same shady practice now, witholding content already on disc or previously played on a GOWJ community event (GOW3 did this as well with Blooddrive,Rustlung, Azura and some other maps irrc). how can GOWJ already have DLC before the game is even out? especially when the map Haven is witheld content posing as "free" dlc

Also,When did 6 maps for GOWJ become a season pass? sounds like just a single map pack which EPIC did previously for GOW1/2/3 than a plethora of season content.

I call B.S.

that or he may be working for EA soon

CliffyB said:
TOO BAD MOTHERFUCKER!
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lol
 
D

DocSeuss

Member
alexandros said:
How nice of CliffyB to defend poor old EA against those damned evil consumers.
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I think he was offering a reality check to some of the more vocal individuals, not defending EA. Also, pointing out the hypocrisy in Valve's fanbase (but, to be fair, Valve creates addictive games by way of operant conditioning, so their players are dependant on them) was a totally valid thing.

The "it's cool if we put our eggs in one basket, because it's profitable" thing is something I find offputting, though.

AnonymousTipster said:
This is kind of related to Cliffy's point about EA being vilified while Valve gets a free pass for almost anything - how come no one makes (or made) a stink about the insane amount of micro-transactions in Uncharted 3 (which were around even before the multiplayer went free to play)?

I have no problem with micro-transactions in theory, but in Uncharted 3 you can directly buy power (treasure set weapons), and that's shitty. Other games have been raked over the coals for a lot less.
Click to expand...

BECAUSE NOBODY PLAYED UNCHARTED 3
 
W

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
AnonymousTipster said:
This is kind of related to Cliffy's point about EA being vilified while Valve gets a free pass for almost anything - how come no one makes (or made) a stink about the insane amount of micro-transactions in Uncharted 3 (which were around even before the multiplayer went free to play)?

I have no problem with micro-transactions in theory, but in Uncharted 3 you can directly buy power (treasure set weapons), and that's shitty. Other games have been raked over the coals for a lot less.
Click to expand...

No one? We have been complaining it on this forum since the game was out
 
Glass Rebel

Glass Rebel

Member
What an incredibly reductionist view of the microtransaction or EA vs. Valve situation. I'm not sure who's not playing games anymore.

If you don't like posts complaining about EA, don't read them.
 
S

Saty

Member
The problem is that EA's implementation sucks. EA are always doing it wrong with every new trend. DD store? Doing it wrong. F2P? Doing it wrong. Microtransactions? Doing it wrong. Games as a service? Doing it wrong.
 
I

Interrobang

Member
Unfortunately, Cliff didn't say anything anyone else hasn't. The post is revolutionary or enlightening. Above all, it's wrong. It's sad that he thinks he's helping by defending the fact that this is an industry.

There are other ways for an industry to change it's business model and adapt then to nickel and dime it's market to death.

Why don't you defend the cable industry while you're at it. They've been overcharging us for services and stifling innovation for years. They're an industry too, man. Leave them alone.

Microtransactions is a quick fix to a long-term problem. As we evolve as consumers, the big 3 need to figure out how to make money off us.

This isn't the way and you are wrong, sir.
 
Animal

Animal

Banned
CliffyB needs to think long and hard why Valve's DLC is usually met with a warm reception.

HINT: Its not marketing.

Those who play games will know the answer quite easily and those who play Fantasy Video Game Manager 2013 all day on GAF will not.
 
A

aliencowz7

Member
Foffy said:
Maybe I'm being over analytical here, but I find that idea to be disturbing. Is the market even asking for games to become a service, or is this what the big companies want to make even bigger profits? I've never once heard of an interest towards something like that outside of someone working on the development/publishing side.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is as much consumers standing up and saying yeah I would really like to pay more for games as opposed to the fact that people keep eating up the games that do use this kind of business model.

I am going to complain about microtransactions and free to play as much as the next gamer because like most people I dislike when my own personal tastes aren't what is popular currently but I find it hard to try to tell a company to just up and leave money on the table.

I wish for these games to vanish but I won't resent anyone who takes advantage of the model until that point.
 
I

IHaveIce

Banned
CliffyB said:
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)
Click to expand...

What about you? Are you actually doing something right now? :p

I agree with some parts of your article, but people already said it, its becoming a problem with single player games, I don't want to pay 3 dollars just to use a better gun or something.
 
P

PedroLumpy

Member
Does he not see the difference between charging for a completely cosmetic item and charging for gameplay affecting items?

I'd say the vocal minority is against poorly implemented microtransactions. Just happens that's most of them right now.

Also, yes we understand capitalism and companies are out to make money. But capitalism kinda hinges on people acting in their own self interest (simplifying, gimme a break). How much $$$ a Publisher/Developer stands to make doesn't factor into my consumer decision process much. I assume EA or whoever else has got that covered. If some microtransaction comes along that is bad for me, I'm not going to think to myself "Well, EA will make money of this so I guess that makes it ok that I'm getting screwed."

I pay money for good games. Do something I like that's good for me, I give you money. Happy ending for everyone.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
I personally think the Mass Effect 3 MP micro transactions are some of the worst because of what they could foreshadow.

The success of that endeavor could inspire developers to make all things like character skins in MP a complete crapshoot to get, with lower and lower chances, to encourage people to spend money.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Saty said:
The problem is that EA's implementation sucks. EA are always doing it wrong with every new trend. DD store? Doing it wrong. F2P? Doing it wrong. Microtransactions? Doing it wrong. Games as a service? Doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

I also think Valve did it wrong in TF2 before they got it absolutely right in DOTA 2.
 
Glass Rebel

Glass Rebel

Member
DocSeuss said:
I think he was offering a reality check to some of the more vocal individuals, not defending EA. Also, pointing out the hypocrisy in Valve's fanbase (but, to be fair, Valve creates addictive games by way of operant conditioning, so their players are dependant on them) was a totally valid thing.

The "it's cool if we put our eggs in one basket, because it's profitable" thing is something I find offputting, though.
Click to expand...

By comparing two entirely different products? He sure told Valve fans.
 
T

Thug Waffle

Member
CliffyB said:
Do any of you fuckers still actually play games, or do you just hang out here all day long and play digital fantasy football with the industry? :)
Click to expand...

Next-gen Gears to feature subscription-based sawed-off confirmed?

It seems as though you stick up for pay-to-win and that the solution to poor people playing P2W games it to "just play for fun." Isn't winning part of the fun? In many ways, people encounter reminders of their social status each and every day. Now, they have to come home and get shit on in virtual competitions developed as an escape from the real world (aka entertainment) because they don't have the money to get on a level playing field with the most "well off" players.

How do you feel about the vastness of consumers out there who can't afford to pay for the best equipment? And then pay again six months later when new equipment releases? If I'm mistaken and you think pay-to-win is as generally abhorrent as most other sensible individuals, please clarify.
 
S

Salsa

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
Ha!
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? find me a post where I go all "praise the gaben!!" or say irreverent shit that isnt justified just for the sake of praising Valve.

I know those people exist and that's why I agree with some of what Cliff is saying there, but no I dont consider myself one of them. Shock.

Im very much a happy costumer of what Valve provides and they've never given me any reason for that to change. I think they are a wonderful company. I think this because of what they've done, I can justify it.
 
J

Jake Tower

Banned
CliffyB said:
TOO BAD MOTHERFUCKER!
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Now take your experience as a dev and businessman and apply your insight and analysis to the effect microtransaction monetization has on game design. That is, how the player psychology it seeks to exploit leads game design deliberately tailored to 'persuading' the player to buy in.

Example - games that have an experience point component to level up or unlock abilities, weapon, perks, etc are tuned such that normal advancement is very slow in order to make the "pay $10 for the XP doubler" more enticing. Is that good game design?
 
C

Coolwhip

Banned
Interrobang said:
Microtransactions is a quick fix to a long-term problem. As we evolve as consumers, the big 3 need to figure out how to make money off us.

This isn't the way and you are wrong, sir.
Click to expand...

And why is it wrong? A lot of iOS games are making boatloads of money with microtransactions.
 
iNvid02

iNvid02

Member
there is no point pitting valve against other publishers, its privately owned and has an endless stream of cash coming in from steam allowing them to do whatever they want.


FDeSOyG.png


the face of a murderer:

UC0a7ue.jpg
 
Duxxy3

Duxxy3

Member
Saty said:
The problem is that EA's implementation sucks. EA are always doing it wrong with every new trend. DD store? Doing it wrong. F2P? Doing it wrong. Microtransactions? Doing it wrong. Games as a service? Doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

They have a huge image problem. Combine that with god awful implementation and it only gets worse for EA.
 
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