I actually made the mistake of reading through it all, thinking that there may be some significant morsel outside that paradigm.
Edit: Oh hey, new page.
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David Cameron's Brexit Poison Chalice and Potential Way to Stop Brexit
- Thread starter Bleepey
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I actually made the mistake of reading through it all, thinking that there may be some significant morsel outside that paradigm.
Edit: Oh hey, new page.
BearFlexington
Member
Care to share another view perhaps?
For one, racism is a major contributing factor. Reducing the racism and misinformation of voters to 'anti-establishment bent' and 'the elites wrought this on themselves' is gross. Yes, certain elites fueled the vote. Particular ones.
When is this stage of Brexit grief going to move away from Denial? The damage is already done. Not triggeting article 50 will mean you will literally see an ultranationalist reaction ten times what we have seen. To democratically say you will hold a referendum and then respect the results and not follow through. You would lose all moral standing forever. Ukraine burned because their PM went against what he said but this would be worse because you would have leaders promise, hold a vote, have a side win the vote and then ignore the result.
It is over. Brexit has already happened. The pound is at its lowest in decades. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and stay with EU, then England and Wales will leave Scotland to leave the EU. How are people not seeing the sheer numbers UKIP and the Conservatives got? 17 million+ people just told you they wanted to leave.
It is over. Brexit has already happened. The pound is at its lowest in decades. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and stay with EU, then England and Wales will leave Scotland to leave the EU. How are people not seeing the sheer numbers UKIP and the Conservatives got? 17 million+ people just told you they wanted to leave.
But you don't know that the will of the people has changed. The whole point of the referendum was to gauge the will of the people. You have anecdotal evidence of people regretting their vote, but the only way to find out is to hold another referendum and that takes time to prepare.
Meanwhile, the EU wants a straight answer so that they can get on with business, not time to dilly-dally.
Bottom line is, you reap what you sow. David Cameron has bowed out, now it's up to the Tories to decide if they want Boris to carry on with it. He seems to think the UK can negotiate an exit on their own terms. I doubt the rest of the EU will look favourably on that.
Seems like this is a good read. Certainly sums things up for me as an outsider who doesn't quite grasp all the factors in play:
https://storify.com/raphkoster/thought-on-brexit-and-governance
https://storify.com/raphkoster/thought-on-brexit-and-governance
GoldenEye 007
Member
True, but it wouldn't be the first time a referendum has been thrown out. Take California. 50 million people and a similar sized economy. Even a similar 4 point win. Although there were considerably less overall voters. 79% turnout. Some of their propositions they voted for have just been thrown out at the federal level.
The winners were just told to pound sand a few years later.
But with the UK here, it just seems like because the government is in disarray, nobody wants to pull the trigger. Purgatory, UK is screwed. Leave, UK is probably screwed more. Really should have had some checks for stuff like this.
What I'm trying to say is direct democracy isn't always right. And even sometimes, checks should be against it in order to prevent just walking off the cliff.
The majority of whom are old and unlikely to be voting in 10-15 years
fushi
Member
It's almost as if you accuse the article of simplifying something to a "sickening" degree and then proceed to offer another simplification as a counter to it -- one which happened to be discussed in detail in the article itself.
Pyramid head
Banned
Honestly, fuck the leave voters. They put so little thought into their choice, they would likely just as gleefully opt to have the country slide into total chaos if the gorvernment held a referendum asking whether they would rather pay taxes or 'keep your pounds for yourself'.
Are you talking about Proposition 8? I hope you realise there's a difference between a court invalidating a state constitutional amendment because it conflicts with the federal constitution and a referendum that does not violate any laws.
It can be stopped, if parliament decides not to act according to the results of the referendum, but not because the results were implicitly wrong.
Those checks need to exist in advance. You can't have a vote, and then decide after the fact that it shouldn't apply. The situations for Brexit and Prop 8 are very different.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I mean
if Cameron will fuck off out of spite I don't see why Boris won't trigger Article 50 out of spite either
if Cameron will fuck off out of spite I don't see why Boris won't trigger Article 50 out of spite either
Yeah, no doubt. Nationalism is on the rise everywhere for some god forsaken reason, but if the last century taught us anything, it's that the world really fucking doesn't want to see European nationalism rise again. God (or whatever) help us if it does. Especially if Germany is left holding the bill for a failed EU. We are all screwed then.
That's why you don't take those sorts of questions to a referendum unless you're prepared to act whichever way the people vote.
Right, but if I'm reading this right, the checks already existed in the US because that was a state-level referendum that was ultimately below a Federal Level court.
If you have a federal-level referendum in the UK, there's no higher authority to bail you out or say you did wrong. Right?
I used a hand grenade analogy in the main thread, but I prefer this one.
Cameron's trying to distance himself from the consequences of his actions. Nothing more.
Fuck 'em. No decision that big should be left to a popular vote.
This is why populist opinion absolutely fucking sucks and why there are checks and balances against them.
If it was by the "will of the people" all the time you'd have utter chaos. People change their minds quickly. They are fickle and half the time make decisions based on incomplete information.
JoeyJungle
Banned
Ha wow, didn't expect to see something from Raph Koster here.
Brexit and Prop 8 are completely different things.
Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment, presented to the people for vote rather then by the legislature. The results are binding, so doesn't need to be approved by the legislature to come into effect. It wasn't struck down by the Supreme Court because it was stupid, but because it violated the federal constutition.
Brexit was a non-binding referendum. It merely gauged the will of the people, but it still requires the parliament to act in order to bring it into effect. They don't have to act, but it's somewhat problematic because the government had previously indicated they would. If they don't, then what was the point of bringing the issue to the people? Why would people trust any future referendums?
In Australia, the term referendum explicitly refers to a poll to change the constitution. Non-binding polls taken to the people are called plebiscites. So for the parliament to not act on the Brexit results would be like if the proposed marriage equality plebiscite were held here and Yes won, but then Malcolm said "Oh sorry, we've changed our mind, we won't change the definition of marriage after all."
excelsiorlef
Member
You should include a Glenn Greenwald spoiler warning.
Representative government is the check and balance. But that government has put this issue to the people, so they themselves have jeopardised the checks and balances. Again:
as much as i don't like Greenwald, i find him pretty terrible actually, he's not too crazy in this article and he does make a valid point that there is a growing resentment towards "elites" and for some good reasons but like most Greenwald shit he ignores so many other factors.
Muppet of a Man
Member
Accurate.
hydrophilic attack
Member
While you're correct, this is the kind of thing that should be considered before a popular vote is held
Cameron is an embarrassment of a PM.
Futurematic
Member
No one ever said Tories are good at thinking.
I agree. I voted remain but if they don't push this through then I truly fear what will happen.
They will be basically saying to the electorate that their votes and opinions do not matter. That is a very,very dangerous position to take. Farage and his ilk and worst people than even him would see this as real proof of an establishment stitch up.
Well done Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, they've guaranteed whichever way they go they and us are pretty much screwed for the the next couple of years at least. I guess some lean years are OK for people who earn £250,000 just for jotting down his opinions in conservative rags. I 'm sure huge swathes of Britain will be just fine.
Milly Osworth
Member
Britain is doooooomed.
The moment Cameron said triggering article 50 was a job for his replacement, and then noted said replacement should probably be for a leave aligned replacement it was buoys he was going the poison chalice route.
Bad enough to have calling the referendum seen as a blunder no need to compound it by being recorded as the guy who triggers it.
This route allows Cameron to duck that and hand his replacement a nasty poison chalice.
So yeah the folks hoping to replace him aren't thrilled as they thought not only would he go with blame for the referendum he'd take hit for article 50 being triggered allowing them to step in to sort it all out not cause it.
This is partially why EU is putting pressure on UK to trigger it: among other reasons they have no desire to take prolonged economic hit while UK politicians dance around the poison chalice.
Not sure it will lead to Brexit being nullified as source hopes but it surely is a stinky present for whoever replaces Cameron in October.
Bad enough to have calling the referendum seen as a blunder no need to compound it by being recorded as the guy who triggers it.
This route allows Cameron to duck that and hand his replacement a nasty poison chalice.
So yeah the folks hoping to replace him aren't thrilled as they thought not only would he go with blame for the referendum he'd take hit for article 50 being triggered allowing them to step in to sort it all out not cause it.
This is partially why EU is putting pressure on UK to trigger it: among other reasons they have no desire to take prolonged economic hit while UK politicians dance around the poison chalice.
Not sure it will lead to Brexit being nullified as source hopes but it surely is a stinky present for whoever replaces Cameron in October.
How many of those 17 million are regretting that now?id argue we dont have 17 million ultra nationalists
Their votes and opinions shouldn't matter if they're too stupid to do any research into what they're voting for. I'm sorry, but if you vote and then SEARCH on Google for more information on what you're voting for, your vote should be stricken from the record.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
52% of the UK population essentially voted to drive Britain of a cliff, no shit it will be ignored.
Whoever triggers article 50 not only sends the UK plunging down the gutter, but has the legacy of causing Scotland to split up and Ireland to unify, pretty much no more UK.
It's kind of ironic though, the uk has fucked over so many countries in the past, fitting they eventually fuck themselves over.
Whoever triggers article 50 not only sends the UK plunging down the gutter, but has the legacy of causing Scotland to split up and Ireland to unify, pretty much no more UK.
It's kind of ironic though, the uk has fucked over so many countries in the past, fitting they eventually fuck themselves over.
Economy tanks, prices for goods and petrol start to surge in real terms for UK in a few weeks.
Mid July people will realise they are getting financially shafted. In the meantime, due to the lack of options and no informal talks due to Article 50 not being triggered, the only real options will be to either Leave on the basis we pay EU anyway and still have free movement, or Remain.
Public appetite will be loud enough to justify 2nd Referendum asking the public whether they accept leaving on those terms.
September Referendum called. Remain win. UK look like dicks, EU gives it really cold shoulder but things cling on to normality and stabilise by year end. Racial violence escalates for six months.
Thats my best case scenario I'm clinging to. The other scenarios scare the shit out of me
Mid July people will realise they are getting financially shafted. In the meantime, due to the lack of options and no informal talks due to Article 50 not being triggered, the only real options will be to either Leave on the basis we pay EU anyway and still have free movement, or Remain.
Public appetite will be loud enough to justify 2nd Referendum asking the public whether they accept leaving on those terms.
September Referendum called. Remain win. UK look like dicks, EU gives it really cold shoulder but things cling on to normality and stabilise by year end. Racial violence escalates for six months.
Thats my best case scenario I'm clinging to. The other scenarios scare the shit out of me
Kadayi
Banned
Exactly. This conceit that somehow Cameron & the Conservatives can weedle on a public referendum of this scale and there not be devastating consequences from an electoral perspective is a pipe dream.
Yesterday in the office everyone was talking about it, and the wide scale consensus was to get the ball rolling on the process sooner rather than later because uncertainty is worse for the market versus action. People who talk about what a great tactical move it was for Cameron to renege on his promise to invoke Article 50 if the vote went against him, seem far removed from the reality that he's effectively fiddling whilst the UK burns into a recession.
As for all the 'well no one in government has to do anything because it was just advisory' talk, that's all well and good from a legal perspective, but it's certainly not a view vast swathes of the general public take. All they'll see it as is the current political establishment reneging on the will of the people, so come the next election, any MP who stood against it will likely be out and your local UKIP candidate in.
All anyone is seeing is ineffective governance, and the country going to the shitter accordingly as a result of that. This idea that there's going to be a massive swing towards remain versus a doubling down by leave voters is a fiction. Least of all when it seems intentional on the governments part to strong arm the public the other way.
Pyramid head
Banned
Fuck the 'ultranationalists'. If the'ye going to throw a strop, they'll do it anyway once it sinks in that the immigrant free white utopia they believed they were being promised outside the EU isn't happening.
Of all the polititian's 'broken promises' during this farce, failing to act on this referendum would be far and away the least egregious.
If the vote was held in 2 years time Remain would win on the current voting turn outs and numbers, due to the number of old people who pass away and the number of young people who turn 18. Do you think it right to commit the country to an irreversible change given that?
That an incredibly bold.claim to make. Care to show your work?
Please stop saying they. I had nothing to do with this.
Kadayi
Banned
Yes, we should hold the children of today responsible for the sins of their forebears /S
Gurgelhals
Member
The way things stand now, both triggering Article 50 and not triggering Article 50 will probably ruin the career of whoever is going to be the next PM. The only difference is that, in all likelihood, the consequences of the latter won't be as terribad as the former.
I'm not expecting sanity to prevail at this point though, so everything seems to be in the cards.
I said that racism and misinformation are contributing factors, among other factors.
The article does not discuss those issues in detail. It's reductionist of discrimination and misinformation. The article claims that "leave" voters voted because they wanted to say "fuck you" to the government. Polls show otherwise. Voters largely cared about immigration, which is definitely an ignorant reason, since leaving the EU likely will not impact that.
And this brings up a further point: the article is full of hot air and feels like it's written by a BernieOrBust bro, proudly resting on his ideological purity. He makes big claims with zero data. The same writer talks of leaving the EU as possibly being a good thing, because it will shock the people into some awakening and they will fight the 'corrupt establishment'. He clearly also would not be bothered with Trump winning, because shocking the American electorate would be better than realistic, incremental progress.
I agree but of the field, I don't think there is any politician brave enough to not follow the result of the vote. These are politicians who all campaigned on Leave after all.
Pyramid head
Banned
My new idea: Have a quick word with Europe to let them know that nobody really wants this insanity, we just have a lot of really dumb people, and those people are already overjoyed that they believe themselves to be enjoying the imagined spoils of their victory, despite that fact that, other than destroying the economy, nothing has actually changed, so why change anything? Just let them continue to believe we've left the EU (most leave voters probably wont ever check) without actually doing at and apologise for the mess we've made.
anonymous_abc
Member
Sky news trying to blame Junker for Brexit... "On his watch"....
MisterFalcon
Member
He certainly bears some of the blame that people would rather face an economic crisis then remain in a union led by him.
fabricated backlash
Member
Just goes to show what a spineless goatfucker Cameron really is.
Blackmailing the EU with a Brexit to press concessions, and then he is too chicken shit to go through with it.
His legacy is in ruins, this isn't his master stroke of strategy, it's a simple continuation of the cowardly shit this short seighted plum has always peddled. He's merely trying to take others down with him.
Blackmailing the EU with a Brexit to press concessions, and then he is too chicken shit to go through with it.
His legacy is in ruins, this isn't his master stroke of strategy, it's a simple continuation of the cowardly shit this short seighted plum has always peddled. He's merely trying to take others down with him.
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