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Digital Foundry: Why Can't Destiny 2 Run at 60fps on PS4 Pro?
- Thread starter Jonboy
- Start date
Yes(also compared to XB1/Scorpio/PS4Pro), but "computational ability" probably means something very different from what you think it means.Oresama said:
If we want to talk making something like Destiny 60fps (let's assume GPU can easily handle it for the exercise), it'd be harder to do on PS3 than the new consoles.
Equanimity
Member
I don't usually complain but I must say that DF's coverage on Destiny 2 (PS4) has been rather poor.
Watching both videos I wondered if DF was actually covering the PC version.
Watching both videos I wondered if DF was actually covering the PC version.
Not the cynic... the crazy person.
And the number of threads and comments about it means what exactly?
SocksAndShoes
Banned
CPU are weak on consoles (even Scorpio)...
We need to move on and accept that
Except we have other FPS games running at 60FPS on console. A lot of them.
What we need to accept is that Bungie is prioritizing graphical fidelity over FPS.
Yes.
Nostremitus
Member
Jaguar CPU can't handle 60fps in games with a lot going on, news at 11.
Different games, different scope, different number of draw calls for the CPU to handle. You can't compare a game that consists of hallways and corridors to an open world shooter in this regard. Just because two games are FPSs doesn't mean the CPU requirements are remotely similar. With no graphical enhancements over stock PS4, the PS4 Pro still wouldn't be able to hit 60fps because the Pro CPU can't handle double draw calls per second over the standard PS4. That means it has nothing to do with prioritizing graphical fidelity since the GPU isn't the bottleneck.
Last gen we had devs give up CPU power but moving GPU tasks to the CPU, creating artificial bottlenecks and legitimately choosing looks over performance. In this case, though, it's that the CPU can't run games of this scope at 60fps regardless of graphical fidelity. The game would have to change on a more fundamental level than just "graphics" to hit 60. At which point the Dev have to ask themselves if they want to make the game they want to make? Or do they start pulling back and dumbing it down until the console CPU s can handle it at 60?
Different games, different scope, different number of draw calls for the CPU to handle. You can't compare a game that consists of hallways and corridors to an open world shooter in this regard. Just because two games are FPSs doesn't mean the CPU requirements are remotely similar. With no graphical enhancements over stock PS4, the PS4 Pro still wouldn't be able to hit 60fps because the Pro CPU can't handle double draw calls per second over the standard PS4. That means it has nothing to do with prioritizing graphical fidelity since the GPU isn't the bottleneck.
Last gen we had devs give up CPU power but moving GPU tasks to the CPU, creating artificial bottlenecks and legitimately choosing looks over performance. In this case, though, it's that the CPU can't run games of this scope at 60fps regardless of graphical fidelity. The game would have to change on a more fundamental level than just "graphics" to hit 60. At which point the Dev have to ask themselves if they want to make the game they want to make? Or do they start pulling back and dumbing it down until the console CPU s can handle it at 60?
HoodWinked
Member
they explained that bungie didnt allow any of the pc footage to be taken.
ethomaz
Banned
Tell me more abou these others flawless 60fps FPS and the scope they aim...
Bungie always priorized gameplay over graphics... it is the same with Destiny... flawless 30fps gameplay even with not top graphics... if they can't reach flawless 60fps they won't use it because gameplay is king here.
Destiny do a lot more than these 60fps FPS in background... it is a way bigger scope.
Dictator93
Member
Except they are not. They are targeting large, vast complex network simulations which are too much for the console CPUs to run at 60hz. Not graphical fidelity... them having a larger GPU budget foe effexts work is seemingly zhe *positive* consequence of their gameplay code and design limiting their CPU refresh to being under 33,3ms.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
It really doesn't look that good to a point where I'd feel comfortable saying that.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
What? What complex network simulations are you talking about in 4v4 PVP? (down from 6v6, but apparently that added headroom still isn't enough for 60FPS...)
4v4 PVP is a "way bigger scope?"
I guess I should clarify I'm talking about the PVP here, I don't really care about Destiny PVE. I guess I'm in the minority here.
ethomaz
Banned
Framerate was not the reason to down to 4v4... they could have flawless 30fps with 6v6.
And yes Destiny has a lot more happening in the world than others FPS games... while you in a place others events are happening in the same world... everything is calculated in realtime.
Sorry but you focusing only in PVP is closing your eyes to most of what Destiny is... you have a lot more than PVP modes in the game.
Are are forgetting Destiny is not a PVP only experience lol It is only about 30% of the game.
Destiny has the same gameplay across all modes... PVP is only a small part of it.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Probably referring to PvE in these posts.
NullPointer
Member
Even 4K supported games include better framerates on the Pro at 1080p.
By better I mean more solid, not the jump that many seem to expect of going from 30fps to 60fps.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Modes that I don't care about, sorry. I played the raids and strikes. Not interested at all.
ethomaz
Banned
So Destiny is not for you lol
You can't even play PVP without do part of the campaign first.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Destiny PVP certainly isn't.
And the network simulation stuff is another argument (why doesn't Destiny have dedicated servers?) that I've already commented on in other threads. That's another...interesting business decision from Bungie that I don't agree with.
Dictator93
Member
^^ They were seemingly talking about the PvE netorking and sim. I cannot comment or reasonably speculate about how much CPU headroom they have in the smaller PVP matches. Perhaps that is a design decision to keep everything at 30 if it cannot always hit 60. Just speculation. Making noise about asking why the smaller PvP is not targetting unlocked framerates up to 60 on console sounds fine by me. The point I was making is that they seemingly targetted a CPU framerate inadvertently and not a GPU onr, but that is a byproduct of the former.
ethomaz
Banned
So what your complain?
60fps is not possible for the game (that include all modes and not only PVP) with the actual CPU on consoles.
What other game do what Destiny do in dedicated servers and reach 60fps.
Sorry but you are just speculating without any example that proves you can do Destiny in 60fps on consoles.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
What are the odds that Bungie maybe includes an unlocked framerate mode on Scorpio to take advantage of VRR or AMD Freesync for the Scorpio version?
I could see Bungie not being okay with a game fluctuating from 60 to 35fps or something like that in normal conditions ala Battlefield 1 and maybe thats the reason they locked it to 30fps.
But it seems like an unlocked framerate would be somewhere within that area of performance and these variable refresh rate solutions could take advantage of that performance.
Wishful thinking.
I could see Bungie not being okay with a game fluctuating from 60 to 35fps or something like that in normal conditions ala Battlefield 1 and maybe thats the reason they locked it to 30fps.
But it seems like an unlocked framerate would be somewhere within that area of performance and these variable refresh rate solutions could take advantage of that performance.
Wishful thinking.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
My complaint is that a 4v4 PVP mode in a 2017 FPS cannot hit 60FPS.
That's...ridiculous. The game isn't doing anything graphically that would warrant that.
It's a design choice, I'm fine with that. I'm also fine that I will never buy Destiny 2 for that reason. I have no interest in any of the other content in the game and it's probably the reason the original game didn't have a lot of staying power for me.
ethomaz
Banned
No. It is not ridiculous.
The game is 30fps. Most games are 30fps. The first game is 30fps.
Why do you want Destiny to have different gameplay across modes? That is ridiculous... Destiny should have the same gameplay for all modes because the same guy playing the campaign few minutes ago needs to do a PVP quest in the future... it requires to be the same gameplay/experience across all the game.
It is a complete package and not game you can sell the PVP and the campaign separated lol
I will say 0 chance if they can't reach a solid 60fps.
Now a prediction Destiny 2 on Scorpio will run and look exactly like Destiny 2 on Pro.
The Lamonster
Member
Just want to say that Digital Foundry is a treasure of the industry. Excellent work as always, guys.
Great post.
Yeah, I guess that's what I was thinking too, that we just have to accept Bungie's prioritization of resources. They put the resources in other places. Just because it doesn't look like Horizon doesn't mean they aren't using that power elsewhere.
therealbigrich
Member
wtf lol.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I will agree with ethomaz at this one. Destiny structure doesn't allow, in my opinion, different performance for different modes. The game works in a very different way than, let's say, Gears of War. The transaction between gaming modes in Destiny is much more natural and constant, and it all feels connected... if you make the game run at different performances between them, it would probably feel a bit unstable sometimes.
ethomaz
Banned
To add.
Destiny was created to make use of all modes in the same session... you have quests that you need to do story, strike, PVP, Raid, etc... quests that in one minute you are playing against AI in campaign but the next minute you are against human players in PVP.
All modes needs to match the same gameplay.
A typical Destiny play will login and do the Daily story mission, the daily PVP mode, etc... it will play across all modes every session.
Imagine if you need to adapt to a new gameplay (30fps or 60fps) each few minutes playing Destiny.
I think it is crazy anybody defending different framerate for different modes in Destiny... I can understand somebody defending 60fps for all modes but not 30fps for strike and 60fps for PVP lol
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Like I said, I'm in the minority here. I played Destiny for the PVP and no 60FPS or dedicated servers = no buy from me. I have a lot of other competitive games to play that prioritize those things.
I think it's pretty clear that 60FPS across the board is the optimal solution here. It's a pity Bungie disagrees.
ethomaz
Banned
There is no way to play Destiny only for PVP... you need to play good part of the campaign to get the quest to start PVP... drops are differents and you will need to play both modes to reach the meta gear for PVP... one time or another you will need to play PVE and vice versa.
Not trying to be rude but I think Destiny is not a game for you or for what you are looking.
I'm absolutely sure nobody at Bungie disagree with that.
They give reasons why they couldn't archive 60fps across all the modes.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
^ ^ This.
In a world without COD, BF, Titanfall, etc. running at 60fps and looking better than Destiny I'd give Bungie a pass but that world doesn't exist.
The fact they can't even get 4v4 Crucible running at 60fps at least while BF1 has 64 players running around beautifully rendered maps with explosions, vehicles, etc. tells me Bungie need to come up with better excuses.
ethomaz
Banned
First neither of these 60fps do what Destiny do... they are complete different games with way smaller worlds and realtime simulation.
Second who said Bungie can't archive 60fps in Crucible 4v4? The fact the Crucible is 30fps is because the game is 30fps and all modes needs to run at 30fps.
BTW PC proves they can reach 60fps in any mode... the issue here is not company but the hardware.
VincentMatts
Member
Well, they can cause PC will. Maybe theyre just not as good as other devs when it comes to console development. If Dice can do it in 64 player matches with destruction in an engine that looks twice as good as D2, surely Bungie could too.
Seem to me like they just dont have the people to do it.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Why can't they have 30fps in PvE amd 30fps in less demanding PvP. I'm not buying the idea that Destiny is doing something amazing in background simulations in a 4v4 MP match. It's 2017, 30fps shouldn't be acceptable in any competitive FPS. I can let that shit slide for PvE but in PvP it's a sad joke. BF1, COD, and Titanfall all have more players and more stuff going on in competitive matches and still manage to hit 60fps. What this tells me is that for whatever reason Bungie is adamant about sticking to 30fps in PvE. It's probably for similar reasons they are using p2p instead of dedicated servers for D2.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
I think this is the likely scenario we are dealing with.
I laughed at this since Destiny 2 hardly looks impressive compared to something like Horizon.
ethomaz
Banned
Or DICE 64 players match with destruction didn't reach the level of CPU usage of a real time simulation in a open world map that has a lot of events happening at the same time.
Do you have ideia what is being calculated in Destiny while you are patrolling? How many enemies AI, random events, random chest and material respawn, etc.
You know you can have you 3 friends of fireteam in way different places in a world doing different things with different enemies and still you are getting the events rewards?
Which other 60fps campaign do that in real time in consoles?
Sorry but inaceitável is PVE and PVP running at different framerate lol
You probably has no ideia what Destiny is or play because these modes are not separated like others games... they are togheter in the same game.
NullPointer
Member
Warframe. And I'm pretty sure Warframe handles a hell of a lot more than that.
I haven't played another game on the consoles that so regularly throws so many effects on screen at once.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
SocksAndShoes
Banned
I don't think it looks like a graphical improvement either, but the push for 4K tells me that's a focus for them.
Great example.
VincentMatts
Member
Does Halo5 warzone count? Theres PvPvE in that and its doing it on a even less powerful console at 60fps. Like i said, i dont believe that this isnt possible.
They put their eggs in a different basket, fine. Not possible? Bullshit.
ethomaz
Banned
30fps with drops to 10fps a lot of time.
I played over 1000 hours of Warframe
Rhino for life.Are you guys joking or what? Anybody that played Warframe now the franerate is shit to low 10.
And it is 30fps lol
Great example of 30fps game with unstable framerate.
NullPointer
Member
You'll only see drops with several heavy CC frames against large waves of enemies like you find in Sorties and Raids and later round Survivals.30fps with drops to 10fps a lot of time.
I played over 1000 hours of Warframe
I still play it regularly and its 60fps the vast majority of the time. At launch on PS4 framerates took hits like you describe often, but the game has improved by leaps and bounds since then.
And that's with a shitton of on-screen enemies, over 30+ player classes with a ton of customization and RNG loot drops.
I'm at way beyond 1000 hours on the PS4 version. Nyx for life ;p
SocksAndShoes
Banned
On the Pro?
And Rainbow 6 Siege goes from 30FPS in Terrorist Hunt to 60 in multiplayer.
But Destiny is like, a completely different world of game design apparently.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
WTH are you talking about? 😐 I've owned Destiny since launch and was in both the Alpha and Beta for the game before it released.
Modes are sepearated by loading screens dude. There's absolutely no reason why both modes can't run at different framerates. Killzone Shadowfall does the same thing and so does Uncharted 4 on PS4 too.