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Dolphin - Emulating Wii and Gamecube Games

People are going to claim that it "ruins the original art" or some other BS, but I don't care. That looks friggin' great!

It's kind of true, though. Going back up to what was said earlier in the thread about Resident Evil 4 texture packs:

when the textures are high resolution versions of stock IM OK
when they aren't and they change the look/atmosphere of the game because of it IM NOT OK

What this literally means is that HD texture packs need to look exactly like the original textures, just cleaner. And I mean exactly. "I found a texture on Google Image Search that looks similar but isn't totally correct" still probably isn't good enough.

But some of those HD textures in the Twilight Princess comparison video significantly change the entire color palette of some areas. Why, exactly? As somebody who has painted textures in his time, it's not very difficult to use the color dropper tool and get colors directly from the original texture to make sure they match. Respect should also be paid to things like contrast levels and such.

It ends up looking kind of arrogant in that "Well I'm going to IMPROVE it! Because I know art direction better than the original creators did!" sort of way. Chances are, you don't.

And that's not even counting the fact that the textures look too realistic for TP's art style. TP had some really blurry textures in spots, but I don't think they'd look like that when they were clarified.

And with the increased fidelity, you more easily notice that all of the grass is exactly the same height, which ends up looking very strange at a distance - these very square "blocks" of grass everywhere, like there's a landscaper traveling around Hyrule trimming everything all the time. That's not just an art direction decision, that's a design decision - you just don't notice something like that with the thicker blades. With the HD textures, it might as well be N64 grass.

Sometimes, having too-high of a fidelity exposes the limitations of everything around it and creates a juxtaposition that ruins the entire scene. Obviously there are people out there who don't mind that kind of stuff, but I do.
 

tlstls

Banned
It ends up looking kind of arrogant in that "Well I'm going to IMPROVE it! Because I know art direction better than the original creators did!" sort of way. Chances are, you don't.

His words, translated by me:

"I really respect your opinion Sega1991, I apreciate your argumentation (others may only complain saying its awful). My only intention was to update the game in a way to make it more modern, in a way that it pleases me, my friends and anyother people interested, I did draw some direct and indirect illumination on the textures, really painful work.

For the ones who need fidelity, I beliave others Zelda TP projects may satisfy your need and taste."

[]'s
 

Gbraga

Member
Oh that's right, I'll also be able to play No More Heroes 2! Played the first one recently on the PS3, can't wait for the improved (I guess?) version. I thought the first one was a very flawed but promising and enjoyable experience.
 

Ledsen

Member
People are going to claim that it "ruins the original art" or some other BS, but I don't care. That looks friggin' great!

It does ruin the original art, because it completely changes the look. But just like I'm free to have that opinion, he's free to change every texture in the game to pink or whatever he would like to do. Just because some people think it looks bad doesn't mean we think he can't do it if he wants to and likes it!
 

rjc571

Banned
It does ruin the original art, because it completely changes the look. But just like I'm free to have that opinion, he's free to change every texture in the game to pink or whatever he would like to do. Just because some people think it looks bad doesn't mean we think he can't do it if he wants to and likes it!

Well feel free to keep playing TP with its original oatmeal-looking textures then. I'll be first in line to use the pack when it comes out.
 
I'm not so much against changing the look, I mean:

OksOc.jpg


If it follows some kind of theme (and looks good), as I am against changing for a bad artistic direction. And as crisp as that HD TP texture pack is, I think the texture tiling and the like is as subpar as it gets, it just looks repeated everywhere.

I don't like the look of it even if yeah, the current textures are too blurry for the resolutions you're asking out of it.


Of course it's a hit and miss kind of job though, some things will just look better (even a non-functioning clock is right two times a day), some others will look repetitive and bland; but thing is, if it was to be done by professional artists I could have some faith in it; as it is though, nah. the biggest problem is really walls and ground textures though.
 

Foshy

Member
What kind of results could I expect on a Laptop with 2.26 GHz dual core, 4 GB RAM and a ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 (256 MB) video card?

If I can run GC games on 30 fps with low settings that would be enough for me already.
 

Tankshell

Member
What kind of results could I expect on a Laptop with 2.26 GHz dual core, 4 GB RAM and a ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 (256 MB) video card?

If I can run GC games on 30 fps with low settings that would be enough for me already.

CPU is your bottleneck. Even over clocked intel chips like the 2500k overclocked to 4.5Ghz struggle to play some games (ie mine).
 
Correct me if I'm wrong (Its been a while since I tried).

You should run REmake in 4:3 only, because all the animated effects in the prerendered backgrounds won't be a the right places if you force widescreen. For example: the light of a burning candle won't be on top of the candle, more like 2 centimeters off burning in the middle of nothing.

RE Zero (from RE archives) is 16:9, but everything seems stetchy to me so I play in 4:3 anyway, though I don't know about the GC version, I deleted my rips when I bought the Archives version.

How did you get REmake to run? I'm using the latest version of Dolphin and REmake crashes after the warning screen. Other games look to work correctly though.
 
What kind of results could I expect on a Laptop with 2.26 GHz dual core, 4 GB RAM and a ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 (256 MB) video card?

If I can run GC games on 30 fps with low settings that would be enough for me already.

You can't just simply "drop frames" like PC games and expect them to run full speed, especially since dropping frames will only help with the GPU burden, and GCN/Wii (and emulation in general) is almost always CPU limiting.
 

xJavonta

Banned
What kind of results could I expect on a Laptop with 2.26 GHz dual core, 4 GB RAM and a ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 (256 MB) video card?

If I can run GC games on 30 fps with low settings that would be enough for me already.
What CPU is it? I'm guessing a Core 2 Duo?

CPU is your bottleneck. Even over clocked intel chips like the 2500k overclocked to 4.5Ghz struggle to play some games (ie mine).
If you're struggling with a 2500k, it's not the CPU; it's Dolphin.
 

Pro

Member
Stock Dolphin version, ironically it's a lot less of a hassle to deal with in almost every regard to the PC port.

Here's an album of a bunch of RE4 shots I took a while back
http://dolphinsnacks.com/screenshots/residentevil4/

Yeah agree. I tinkered with a resolution pack for the Wii version of RE4 in addition to getting the aiming reticule changed from the cross hair back to the laser sight and it looked and played fantastic. Your pics just reaffirm to me that I don't need to bother with the PC version. But to each his own...
 

Ydahs

Member
People are going to claim that it "ruins the original art" or some other BS, but I don't care. That looks friggin' great!

Overall it looks pretty damn good, except for some high contrast textures. Your friend's done a hell of a job there. I probably wouldn't use it, but if there are people out there who don't care about preserving the original look and just want a fine looking game, this might be the right texture pack I reckon.
 
If you're struggling with a 2500k, it's not the CPU; it's Dolphin.

Or you have no concept on how emulation works ;)

The PC and GCN/Wii are designed very differently and there are certain things you can't make up for even if the PC hardware is leagues "better" such as latency between components. Many games don't need their timing to be 1:1 with the real hardware to work, and thus you can fake it. Others depend on timing to be perfect, and if the timing has to be perfect 100% of the time (constantly causing 'pausing' so everything can keep up to prevent game crashes) it won't matter how much raw processing power your CPU is pushing.

It's the same reason why that same 2500k overclocked won't be able to play all PS2 games full speed as well...
 

Pro

Member
Hey guys, my friend is making a HD Texture Packs for Zelda Twilight Princess, it will add High definition textures of 1k res to the game and direct illumination to the textures, his progress is very advanced, it's almost 70% of the textures, his work is complete on all of Hyrule Field and some of the temple, actually, his work is in progress on the NPC and three temples, which are Temple of Time, Forest Temple, Snowpeak Ruins, these are under modification still.

In his words: "The art is a little different, and it's for my friends and friends friends to play, and enjoy, some people maybe complain on the bloom effect, but it's nothing I can do about it, since it's something of the game and I can't turn it off, you can go and look in the original game and see it makes heavy use of it."

These are two videos of his work in progress, please enjoy and see it in HD (720p)!

This one is a comparative video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoIFcn6V-W4?hd=1

And this is for you to see the works in progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbGGEMXtGcA?hd=1

Feedback is well appreciated!
logo_m.png

I'm a fan. Will you keep us posted as to when it is finished and a link to where it is?
 

xJavonta

Banned
Or you have no concept on how emulation works ;)

The PC and GCN/Wii are designed very differently and there are certain things you can't make up for even if the PC hardware is leagues "better" such as latency between components. Many games don't need their timing to be 1:1 with the real hardware to work, and thus you can fake it. Others depend on timing to be perfect, and if the timing has to be perfect 100% of the time (constantly causing 'pausing' so everything can keep up to prevent game crashes) it won't matter how much raw processing power your CPU is pushing.

It's the same reason why that same 2500k overclocked won't be able to play all PS2 games full speed as well...

If you're trying to emulate something with hardware 4x as fast (not saying your 2500k is 4x faster than what the Wii/GCN is using, just using it for the purposes of this), and it needs to be 1:1, why wouldn't the faster hardware be able to catch up? I understand that it requires hardware more powerful than the hardware you're trying to emulate to accurately emulate it, but for some reason I'm having a hard time believing it's the hardware itself holding you back in this case. Especially when with newer revisions of an emulator, performance for some titles is increased. You didn't swap out your CPU, you just changed revisions.

What games are you having problems playing? The only game that has given me any problem so far is F-Zero GX, and it's well known that the problem is Dolphin itself and not necessarily the hardware.
 

Tess3ract

Banned
If you're trying to emulate something with hardware 4x as fast (not saying your 2500k is 4x faster than what the Wii/GCN is using, just using it for the purposes of this), and it needs to be 1:1, why wouldn't the faster hardware be able to catch up? I understand that it requires hardware more powerful than the hardware you're trying to emulate to accurately emulate it, but for some reason I'm having a hard time believing it's the hardware itself holding you back in this case. Especially when with newer revisions of an emulator, performance for some titles is increased. You didn't swap out your CPU, you just changed revisions.

What games are you having problems playing? The only game that has given me any problem so far is F-Zero GX, and it's well known that the problem is Dolphin itself and not necessarily the hardware.


Code is not 1:1

Dolphin has less people working on it, yet it plays most games better than pscx2, which the games require much higher system requirements in terms of their consoles.

That being said, even if code was somehow able to be 1:1 you'd still need better hardware than what you're emulating unless the dev releases the source code and people work on porting it.

If you had console games with the same build as a PC game, PC games would be blowing them out of the water performance wise every time, not because they can brute force it either.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
CPU is your bottleneck. Even over clocked intel chips like the 2500k overclocked to 4.5Ghz struggle to play some games (ie mine).

Chances are you have a bad build of Dolphin.
An OC'd 2500K should have no trouble emulating essentially everything.

I have yet to find a game that is bottlenecked by my 2500K.
 

xJavonta

Banned
Read this article to get a better idea of why even hardware that's four times as fast will have to take shortcuts (which Dolphin is).
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Code is not 1:1

Dolphin has less people working on it, yet it plays most games better than pscx2, which the games require much higher system requirements in terms of their consoles.

That being said, even if code was somehow able to be 1:1 you'd still need better hardware than what you're emulating unless the dev releases the source code and people work on porting it.

If you had console games with the same build as a PC game, PC games would be blowing them out of the water performance wise every time, not because they can brute force it either.
That makes total sense actually, thanks
 

tlstls

Banned
In his words: "Hi guys, news about the Zelda TP HD Texture Pack, I'm going to release two versions, one that you see in the video and another more opaque for the people who are complaining about brightness and contrast, see in the photo:"


 

xJavonta

Banned

Well I wouldn't expect much from it but KojiKnight has it right:

You can't just simply "drop frames" like PC games and expect them to run full speed, especially since dropping frames will only help with the GPU burden, and GCN/Wii (and emulation in general) is almost always CPU limiting.

If the game is made to run at an average of 60 FPS and you're only getting an average of 30, you're running it at half speed. That's gonna result in some really slow gameplay that is pretty much unplayable and definitely undesirable.

The only sure fire way to know how your PC is gonna handle it is to test it out yourself.
 
Well I wouldn't expect much from it but KojiKnight has it right:



If the game is made to run at an average of 60 FPS and you're only getting an average of 30, you're running it at half speed. That's gonna result in some really slow gameplay that is pretty much unplayable and definitely undesirable.

This isn't necessarily correct. Around the time of the N64/PSX emulators took the unfortunately confusing turn of using FPS as a means of explaining how fast a game is actually running versus how many frames per second a video is displaying. This is completely misleading, though understandable from a developer perspective... but end users get a little lost.

Dolphin at least does this correctly. FPS displayed in Dolphin are actual FPS (compare to epsxe where only rarely did 3d games run in true 60fps, but the display uses 60hz as a measure of running the game full speed). Instead Dolphin uses VPS as a measure of "full speed" compared to console and leaves the FPS seperate so you can see when you're just dropping frames and when the game is actually being slowed down because of hardware not being fast enough/settings needing to be changed.

(edit) to go back to the other thing of 1 to 1 timing... Latency (in this case, it means the time it takes for data to get from one place to another inside of the machine) isn't something that scales with faster processing and that is probably the largest bottleneck in PS2 emulation for example. Let's say a game is expecting a small amount of data to be uploaded to it's graphics chip (usually something like a frame buffer effect in a PS2 game) in 2ms. The amount of data is insignificant, something ridiculously small like a few hundred bytes.

Now let's say you're trying to emulate that on a PC but the PC architecture has a higher latency because of how PC hardware and software is integrated, there is overhead in APIs like directX/openGL and just inherent design (PC hardware needs to be easily switched out, etc)... So let's say it needs 5ms to do those same uploads.

That is slightly more than double, but thankfully most games don't use this certain effect often, or use it in such a way that it being slightly delayed won't cause any issues (or only slight graphical glitches/oddities that no one cares about). In these cases (IE most games) you'll see no noticeable difference even on 'weaker' hardware. Other games, however, might make use of this feature often. Worse, it may RELY on this effect to run correctly! Now the emulator has two choices, either stall the game so your PC can eventually get that data to the game, OR let the game continue on without and the game can crash/bug out.

Obviously the former is okay, but the latter is bad so most emulators do the former. There are a few tricks that can be done to prevent/make this issue not as bad. The easiest way is to simply cache these effects... If they are in memory, they can run faster than reloading them each time (this is what PCSX2 does with it's newer MicroVU architecture). This is great for games that only do them occasionally, or do the same one repeatedly.. the most that users will generally experience is a slight delay for a few frames (a note held too long between loading screens for example), and from then on you're golden. But if a certain game is tossing these out non-stop and they are different each time, it won't make a difference how many you cache, and you'll likely just burn your free memory out causing additional slowdowns.

Now back to why faster hardware won't matter in the case of latency... It's simple really... you can only do the work faster, if it gets to you fast enough. Say you are working at a factory, you're 3x faster than Ted at filling boxes than he is. That's great! The problem is though is that you're further down the assembly line than Ted, so Ted gets his boxes 5x earlier than you! So now Ted is on a more even playing field and he may even get done before you! Not because you're slower than Ted, but because Ted has the better position to get it done faster.
 

tlstls

Banned
Can someone tell me the limit to how much pictures I can post and how is the maximum resolution?

I didn't find it on the first page.
 

Seik

Banned
Dat screen of Twilight Princess...

I want this patch, is it still in development or its complete?

EDIT: Nvm, just saw the post in the previous page. This is good work.
 

tlstls

Banned
Thanks Seik!

Just updating, now he does have a blog, and he will be doing his updates there, it have a lot of screeenshots, so make sure to take a look, I will still put screenshots here over time to time.

Link to his blog (just click over the image):



This picture of Wolf Link is with the alternate version (with different brightness/contrast):
 

xJavonta

Banned
This isn't necessarily correct. Around the time of the N64/PSX emulators took the unfortunately confusing turn of using FPS as a means of explaining how fast a game is actually running versus how many frames per second a video is displaying. This is completely misleading, though understandable from a developer perspective... but end users get a little lost.

Dolphin at least does this correctly. FPS displayed in Dolphin are actual FPS (compare to epsxe where only rarely did 3d games run in true 60fps, but the display uses 60hz as a measure of running the game full speed). Instead Dolphin uses VPS as a measure of "full speed" compared to console and leaves the FPS seperate so you can see when you're just dropping frames and when the game is actually being slowed down because of hardware not being fast enough/settings needing to be changed.

(edit) to go back to the other thing of 1 to 1 timing... Latency (in this case, it means the time it takes for data to get from one place to another inside of the machine) isn't something that scales with faster processing and that is probably the largest bottleneck in PS2 emulation for example. Let's say a game is expecting a small amount of data to be uploaded to it's graphics chip (usually something like a frame buffer effect in a PS2 game) in 2ms. The amount of data is insignificant, something ridiculously small like a few hundred bytes.

Now let's say you're trying to emulate that on a PC but the PC architecture has a higher latency because of how PC hardware and software is integrated, there is overhead in APIs like directX/openGL and just inherent design (PC hardware needs to be easily switched out, etc)... So let's say it needs 5ms to do those same uploads.

That is slightly more than double, but thankfully most games don't use this certain effect often, or use it in such a way that it being slightly delayed won't cause any issues (or only slight graphical glitches/oddities that no one cares about). In these cases (IE most games) you'll see no noticeable difference even on 'weaker' hardware. Other games, however, might make use of this feature often. Worse, it may RELY on this effect to run correctly! Now the emulator has two choices, either stall the game so your PC can eventually get that data to the game, OR let the game continue on without and the game can crash/bug out.

Obviously the former is okay, but the latter is bad so most emulators do the former. There are a few tricks that can be done to prevent/make this issue not as bad. The easiest way is to simply cache these effects... If they are in memory, they can run faster than reloading them each time (this is what PCSX2 does with it's newer MicroVU architecture). This is great for games that only do them occasionally, or do the same one repeatedly.. the most that users will generally experience is a slight delay for a few frames (a note held too long between loading screens for example), and from then on you're golden. But if a certain game is tossing these out non-stop and they are different each time, it won't make a difference how many you cache, and you'll likely just burn your free memory out causing additional slowdowns.

Now back to why faster hardware won't matter in the case of latency... It's simple really... you can only do the work faster, if it gets to you fast enough. Say you are working at a factory, you're 3x faster than Ted at filling boxes than he is. That's great! The problem is though is that you're further down the assembly line than Ted, so Ted gets his boxes 5x earlier than you! So now Ted is on a more even playing field and he may even get done before you! Not because you're slower than Ted, but because Ted has the better position to get it done faster.

That's kind of what I meant. I think. Like, if the game is supposed to run at an average of 60 FPS on actual Wii hardware, and while emulating it you're only getting 30 FPS, Dolphin says you're getting 30 FPS and the game is running at 50% speed correct? I swear I've seen that in the titlebar of the Dolphin window, although it's been a while since I last started Dolphin.

As for the second point, that's what vsync is for right? If your hardware is fast enough that it can emulate it at 20x the normal speed, couldn't you turn on some sort of synchronization (Audio or whatever) that prevents it from going faster than 100% so it's stable?
 

hlhbk

Member
My specs are:

Intel Core i7 2600k
Nvidia GTX 570
16 GB RAM
SSD HDD
Win 7

With the specs above what kind of performance should I receive in Dolphin? Looking to run Xenoblade, Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, Zelda, and others. Which version of Dolphin should I use, and what settings? Thanks in advance!
 
Trying to get Dolphin to go full screen on a second monitor / TV is driving me crazy. Alt-Enter will make it go fullscreen for a split second before going back to windowed.
 
My specs are:

Intel Core i7 2600k
Nvidia GTX 570
16 GB RAM
SSD HDD
Win 7

With the specs above what kind of performance should I receive in Dolphin? Looking to run Xenoblade, Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, Zelda, and others. Which version of Dolphin should I use, and what settings? Thanks in advance!

If you can OC that i7, you shouldn't have many issues with anything. In my experience, the latest version of Dolphin should run everything fine, although some games can be anomalies and run better on a specific build.

Aside from your resolution preferences, check the Dolphin wiki for game-specific settings. I will note, though, that SMG1/2 require the use of the DSP LLE audio setting, which requires a file dump from your own Wii. The LLE also puts some extra strain on your machine, so you may have to tone down your resolution for those two games, depending on if/how much you overclock.

Edit:
petethepanda said:
Trying to get Dolphin to go full screen on a second monitor / TV is driving me crazy. Alt-Enter will make it go fullscreen for a split second before going back to windowed.
If you're running it as a secondary monitor (using the TV + Monitor as an extended display), it should be as simple as dragging it to the TV display and double-clicking on the window.
 

hlhbk

Member
If you can OC that i7, you shouldn't have many issues with anything. In my experience, the latest version of Dolphin should run everything fine, although some games can be anomalies and run better on a specific build.

Aside from your resolution preferences, check the Dolphin wiki for game-specific settings. I will note, though, that SMG1/2 require the use of the DSP LLE audio setting, which requires a file dump from your own Wii. The LLE also puts some extra strain on your machine, so you may have to tone down your resolution for those two games, depending on if/how much you overclock.

Edit:
If you're running it as a secondary monitor (using the TV + Monitor as an extended display), it should be as simple as dragging it to the TV display and double-clicking on the window.

If I don't OC and want to run the games at 1080P will it be possible?
 
If you're running it as a secondary monitor (using the TV + Monitor as an extended display), it should be as simple as dragging it to the TV display and double-clicking on the window.

It doesn't stick, it'll flick into full-screen for a split second before going back to the window. It just refuses to do full-screen on the secondary monitor. If I set the TV to primary it works, but that's adding in enough steps to make it a hassle.
 
It doesn't stick, it'll flick into full-screen for a split second before going back to the window. It just refuses to do full-screen on the secondary monitor. If I set the TV to primary it works, but that's adding in enough steps to make it a hassle.

Hm. I'm not too sure, then. You can use the Win+P shortcut to make switching between displays a little less painful, if you haven't tried it yet. Sorry that I couldn't be of more help.

hlhbk said:
If I don't OC and want to run the games at 1080P will it be possible?
I can't say for certain - wait for others to chime in with more experience with the i5s and i7s, but: they should be playable, with some slowdown in certain areas, especially in SMG1/2.
 

tiku

Member
Nice speed up at rev 784 of Dolphin ;)

* Hey, long time no commits :).
So to compensate lets bring back some speed to the emulation.
change a little the way the vertex are send to the gpu,
This first implementation changes dx9 a lot and dx11 a little to increase the parallelism between the cpu and gpu.
ogl: is my next step in ogl is a little more trickier so i have to take a little more time.
the original concept is Marcos idea, with my little touch to make it even more faster.
what to look for: SPEEEEEDDD :).
please test it a lot and let me know if you see any problem.
in dx9 the code is prepared to fall back to the previous implementation if your card does not support the amount of buffers needed.
So if you did not experience any speed gains you know where is the problem :).
for the ones with more experience and compression of the code please test changing the amount and size of the buffers to tune this for your specific machine.
The current values are the sweet spot for my machine.
All must Thanks Marcos, I hate him for giving good ideas when I'm full of work.

It's more noticeable using Dx9:

x86: http://down.emucr.com/v3/3591004
x64: http://down.emucr.com/v3/3593004
 
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