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[ArchedThunder]

Truthfully I did not know the biological stuff was from this far back. But this still doesnt say they can train to get stronger. Gero put parts inside them that gave them super powers. Its still a leap to think pushups would increase that power even with this.
Its not like gero put the parts in, had them train, and then they had the power. Until he said it was possible, its pretty debateable it was. And nothing in the rest of z expanded on it. And a trained up 18 would have really helped the Buu saga

Daizenshuu 4, released October 1995
Artificial Human No. 17
A cool-headed artificial human who enjoys battles as if they were games. As the twin brother of No. 18, he places more importance on power. Like No. 18, he is fundamentally human-based and only his organic matter has been restructured. The few mechanical parts that are used were for his emergency deactivation controller and self-destruction device. If the emergency deactivation controller is used on the powerful No. 17 and No. 18, they become unable to move their bodies.

There power doesn't come from mechanical parts, it's all organic, there is no reason they couldn't get stronger. 17 and 18 are just genetically modified superhumans, not actual cyborgs.

 

[L Thammy]

toriyama should just jump to giving people stands and save us the problems

Toei should release new Daizenshuu where, if you flip to the chapter on power levels, a boxing glove flies out and punches you in the face.

 

[Romars202129]

Those are very good points.

I mean, they would have been, very good points, in the imaginary world where this didn't happen :

Can't believe you dared to throw the blue prints in my face while ignoring what the blue prints said.

They are living organisms, there is no reason to believe they can't improve.

The japanese terms for all those creations is "Artificial humans", not "androids". It makes much more sense.



What does that have to do with anything ? When Goku died he still came back stronger than everybody else because of what he ac


Considering Cell could use them thanks to their biology, it's highly possible indeed.

Fair enough. You got me with the 100% organic stuff.

 

[Maxim726X]

The reason why people aren't buying it is because the idea of Goku holding back against Krillin in Blue when he's already stronger (or was believed to to be stronger) than Krillin in Base form is hilarious.

It would literally imply that SSB Goku is suppressing his power level below that of his base form in order for Krillen to compete.

Bro, it's just a cartoon. Don't bring your logic and continuity up in this bitch... 17 was fighting poachers on an island for years. Why shouldn't he be able to stand up to someone that is able to stand up to a God? It all makes sense.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Toei should release new Danzenshuu where, if you flip to the chapter on power levels, a boxing glove flies out and punches you in the face.

I... I want this.
No, but seriously, these fuckers need to release a new guide book, we haven't gotten one since the Super Start Guide back when Super started.

Bro, it's just a cartoon. Don't bring your logic and continuity up in this bitch... 17 was fighting poachers on an island for years. Why shouldn't he be able to stand up to someone that is able to stand up to a God? It all makes sense.

Why do people just assume all he did was fight poachers, and not, you know, actually train?

 

[ElFly]

Even after decades and countless satire people still don't understand thatn compared to the need to the plot, power levels don't mean shit.

power levels are cool when they are supported by plot

like in the Black saga: Trunks gets his ass kicked for a while and can only help against immortal Zamasu. his power level still makes sense after his Cell saga participation; he had improved but only so far

then the plot has him getting enraged by the Zamasus -> his power level becomes maximum and proceeds to kick ass on Black levels for a while. it was a cool moment cause it merged plot and character introspection with power levels -which are a clutch to keep the feats of strength increasing without showing it-

compare it to FTrunks getting the kill on Merged Zamasu: it makes sense in the arc that it's Trunks that gets the kill, but there is no build up nor logic to the genki sword, and thus people disliked it. it was a botched execution

so now you have a character that has been off camera and who had no training nor character development to warrant such a dramatic jump, people are gonna whine because there's nothing to justify it. there is some logic behind it (17 being a human who can train) but we didn't get to see the training or anything that warranted him becoming super powerful

even Freeza had motivation to train

 

[ezodagrom]

If he was that cocky and cared about getting stronger why does he give a damn about being a park ranger?

He's probably a park ranger in memory of 16 (which liked nature)?

"Oh, hey, you guys remember 17? He's back and he's on Goku's level now, who has been training with the God of Destruction. How does this make sense, you ask? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯"

17 was considerably stronger than Goku back when he was introduced, but then the time chamber happened.

 

[Maxim726X]

I... I want this.
No, but seriously, these fuckers need to release a new guide book, we haven't gotten one since the Super Start Guide back when Super started.


Why do people just assume all he did was fight poachers, and not, you know, actually train?

Because why the fuck would he??

Even if he did, it's absurd. No one needs to rationalize it, it's fucking Dragon Ball. It's absurdity is what people love about the show... It's just hysterical that people are doing mental gymnastics here to justify how Krillin and 17 can somehow stand up to SSB Goku. It's ridiculous- Just admit it and move on.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Don't worry they'll get as strong as Blue without actually getting it. Same with Ultimate Gohan.

That's fine too. However they get stronger

 

[caliph95]

That's fine too. However they get stronger

and continue to be irrelevant

 

[ArchedThunder]

Because why the fuck would he??

Even if he did, it's absurd. No one needs to rationalize it, it's fucking Dragon Ball. It's absurdity is what people love about the show... It's just hysterical that people are doing mental gymnastics here to justify how Krillin and 17 can somehow stand up to SSB Goku. It's ridiculous- Just admit it and move on.

Because he was always proud of his power and thought he was the strongest and then got humiliated by Cell... His base power with no training is far higher than Goku's or even Freeza, him having 13 years to catch up makes sense to me.
Krillin didn't stand up to Blue, I don't think you understood that scene.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

and continue to be irrelevant

Don't be hating

 

[Maxim726X]

Because he was always proud of his power and thought he was the strongest and then got humiliated by Cell... His base power with no training is far higher than Goku's or even Freeza, him having 13 years to catch up makes sense to me.
Krillin didn't stand up to Blue, I don't think you understood that scene.

Haha 'didn't understand'. Okay, chief.

Your tag suits you.

 

[caliph95]

Don't be hating

I'm not just telling the truth

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

I'm not just telling the truth

We'll handle this in the one piece thread

 

[ArchedThunder]

Haha 'didn't understand'. Okay, chief.

Your tag suits you.

Krillin has a history of afraid of those stronger than him, there are going to be fighters at the tournament far stronger than him. Krillin knows that Blue is incredibly powerful so Goku used it as a test to make sure he'd stand his ground. It's pretty simple scene to understand.

 

[Romars202129]

Daizenshuu 4, released October 1995
Artificial Human No. 17
A cool-headed artificial human who enjoys battles as if they were games. As the twin brother of No. 18, he places more importance on power. Like No. 18, he is fundamentally human-based and only his organic matter has been restructured. The few mechanical parts that are used were for his emergency deactivation controller and self-destruction device. If the emergency deactivation controller is used on the powerful No. 17 and No. 18, they become unable to move their bodies.

There power doesn't come from mechanical parts, it's all organic, there is no reason they couldn't get stronger. 17 and 18 are just genetically modified superhumans, not actual cyborgs.

Theres also no reason to think they could. Their power came from body modification. These 'parts', where they muscles? This is cartoon science. Theres no clear lines to anything. Until toriyama said so, it was a gray area.
But the fact they never trained and got stronger despite the need in the buu saga made it seem clear they had no potential back then.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Because why the fuck would he??

Even if he did, it's absurd. No one needs to rationalize it, it's fucking Dragon Ball. It's absurdity is what people love about the show... It's just hysterical that people are doing mental gymnastics here to justify how Krillin and 17 can somehow stand up to SSB Goku. It's ridiculous- Just admit it and move on.

Why wouldn't he? You're doing mental gymnastics of your own to justify your own point. You can assume he cares about fighting and getting stronger, and that's just as much as an assumption to make as assuming he doesn't care to train. I just go with the former since it would actually make more sense as to why he's so much stronger now.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Theres also no reason to think they could. Their power came from body modification. These 'parts', where they muscles? This is cartoon science. Theres no clear lines to anything. Until toriyama said so, it was a gray area.
But the fact they never trained and got stronger despite the need in the buu saga made it seem clear they had no potential back then.

Their enhancements being organic implies that they could get stronger, it's pretty simple.
Why do you think he wasn't stronger in the Buu arc? 17 can't sense Ki, he would have been unaware of what was going on that arc.

 

[Kyzer]

Hercule threw some rocks at Buu for like a day and he became Skinny Buu, and yall are doing this over 17's power gains

[IMG]https://m.popkey.co/925ff5/Oo04a.gif[/IMG]

 

[caliph95]

Hercule threw some rocks at Buu for like a day and he became Skinny Buu, and yall are doing this over 17's power gains

[IMG]https://m.popkey.co/925ff5/Oo04a.gif[/IMG]

Honestly Buu huge jump was a lot dumber, especially since he is the weakest buu

 

[LSauchelli]

Theres also no reason to think they could. Their power came from body modification. These 'parts', where they muscles? This is cartoon science. Theres no clear lines to anything. Until toriyama said so, it was a gray area.
But the fact they never trained and got stronger despite the need in the buu saga made it seem clear they had no potential back then.

Why do you still assume that they could not train?

The Buu saga took place in a day and a half. #18 had little to do with it, and more or less served as comedic relief with her interactions with Mr. Satan, and #17 was literally in only one panel were he provided the Genki Dama with his power (and some poachers'), when exactly would've they trained to fight Buu, Dabura and all the rest?

 

[Icyflamez96]

Do we even know how much stronger Buu got? It's not like Goku went out of his base form.

 

[Skeeter49]

Nothing was stated to suggest all 17 does is fight poachers. We saw one day in the life of 17.
Fighting aliens could be common. And some people do have alien technology.

 

[ElFly]

Their enhancements being organic implies that they could get stronger, it's pretty simple.
Why do you think he wasn't stronger in the Buu arc? 17 can't sense Ki, he would have been unaware of what was going on that arc.

we've been over this

extreme circumstances are necessary for him to not notice the genocide attack or Babidi's telepathy

 

[Slaythe]

Fair enough. You got me with the 100% organic stuff.

One of you two's soul was saved.

 

[Ashodin]

Do we even know how much stronger Buu got? It's not like Goku went out of his base form.

That's the trick dude - if you can ringout Goku before he goes SSB ham, you win

Not that that will happen in the tournament - the OP shows Goku vs Jiren and going SSG2.

Yes I'm calling his new form Super Saiyan God 2. Why? because the aura is red.

 

[Skeeter49]

Where do you guys think most of the power came from for the Genkai Dama?

Spoiler

those 2 poachers

 

[Romars202129]

Their enhancements being organic implies that they could get stronger, it's pretty simple.
Why do you think he wasn't stronger in the Buu arc? 17 can't sense Ki, he would have been unaware of what was going on that arc.

I'm saying Toriyama wasnt thinking about 17 during the Buu saga, not until cameo time came up. Cause we all know thats the real reason...
But I want to point out, 18 actually trains with Krillin in the Buu saga. Not only doesnt she get stronger, by how much trouble Goten and Trunks give her, she actually got weaker. Im saying this was not part of Toriyamas design back then cause why didnt he do it then?

 

[Slaythe]

we've been over this

extreme circumstances are necessary for him to not notice the genocide attack or Babidi's telepathy

I mean, telepathy is in theory very close to "broadcasting", so the waves could be accurate. (literally brain waves)
If so, then what I came up with is pretty grounded and not far fetched.

I'm saying Toriyama wasnt thinking about 17 during the Buu saga, not until cameo time came up. Cause we all know thats the real reason...
But I want to point out, 18 actually trains with Krillin in the Buu saga. Not only doesnt she get stronger, by how much trouble Goten and Trunks give her, she actually got weaker. Im saying this was not part of Toriyamas design back then cause why didnt he do it then?

18 never showed any interest for fighting and clearly cared more about money and dresses.

She only learned how to use the Kienzan, probably cause she thought it was cool.

17 was the fighter of the two.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Can't believe this is a several page spanning debate. Like I think it's previous obvious y'all care about power level consistency more than they do. Go with the the flooowwwww enjoy the ride

 

[caliph95]

Can't believe this is a several page spanning debate. Like I think it's previous obvious y'all care about power level consistency more than they do. Go with the the flooowwwww enjoy the ride

It's almost a week and we talked about mostly pl
we are truly a dbz fanbase
it's funny

 

[L Thammy]

Is there some bootleg site where the episodes are substantially different? Where Krillin fights on par with Goku Blue instead of being bailed out by his more powerful wife, and where 17 wiped the floor with Goku's ass instead of fighting evenly when neither of them were trying their hardest and cutting the battle short?

If people don't think that the power level jumps are explained properly, whatever, that's a subjective matter. But people seem to be in disagreement about the events in an episode that we watched a week ago. That's kind of baffling to me.

 

[Skeeter49]

we've been over this

extreme circumstances are necessary for him to not notice the genocide attack or Babidi's telepathy

He still can't pinpoint where Goku vs. BUU was. He needs to lock onto Ki to find them. At best he could find the Gotenks fight by flying around searching, since a lot of Ki attacks were being used, making the fight visible.

 

[Slaythe]

Not gonna lie this is starting to get to me.

Kanzenshu discussions went to shit, this thread is on repeat mode half the time, I even got attacked on social medias by some "power level" people for being excited over the episode.

Kind of ruining my fun.

 

[Kyzer]

Do we even know how much stronger Buu got? It's not like Goku went out of his base form.

well Buu actually beat Goku before he had enough time to use his "hold back" technique

 

[Swarna]

Is there some bootleg site where the episodes are substantially different? Where Krillin fights on par with Goku Blue instead of being bailed out by his more powerful wife, and where 17 wiped the floor with Goku's ass instead of fighting evenly when neither of them were trying their hardest and cutting the battle short?

If people don't think that the power level jumps are explained properly, whatever, that's a subjective matter. But people seem to be in disagreement about the events in an episode that we watched a week ago. That's kind of baffling to me.

17 is clearly portrayed to be a SSB-tier fighter going by dialogue and Goku being "forced" into SSB rather than simply using SSJ3 or below.

Krillin was portrayed to be in the same league as SSJ1 Goku. He jobbed out base Goku and forced him to go SSJ to avoid getting pushed off the building by a beam attack and not noticeably being weaker than him in that form, if at all.

There is no actual power scaling consistency in Super so portrayals have to be taken as the authority.

 

[ElFly]

I mean, telepathy is in theory very close to "broadcasting", so the waves could be accurate. (literally brain waves)
If so, then what I came up with is pretty grounded and not far fetched.

we've never seen telepathy of that level get blocked by anything

if it can go THROUGH THE EARTH to reach to the other side of the planet, it can reach a cave or whatever

 

[ElFly]

He still can't pinpoint where Goku vs. BUU was. He needs to lock onto Ki to find them. At best he could find the Gotenks fight by flying around searching, since a lot of Ki attacks were being used, making the fight visible.

he sensed where Piccolo vs Cell was coming from, stopped the car and looked in the approximate direction. a fight being fought by people prolly below his level

he def could have sensed Buu vs SSJ3, or Buu vs Gotenks or Buu vs Gohan, and fly in the adequate direction

e: dp sorry guys

 

[Ashodin]

Not gonna lie this is starting to get to me.

Kanzenshu discussions went to shit, this thread is on repeat mode half the time, I even got attacked on social medias by some "power level" people for being excited over the episode.

Kind of ruining my fun.

People can't fathom how people get stronger. They assume past their sagas they won't progress in power like Goku can.

 

[Skeeter49]

Goku went SSJ because he was taken by surprise. We've seen the effect that has over and over in Super.
SSG served no other point than to test Krillins determination.
You power scaling obsessed people are misreading things.

 

[Hero]

Okay, I'm just agreeing to disagree with 17's (or anyone else's) power boost being logical or making sense. We'll see how the rest of this arc pans out and see if it's addressed. I just felt like it's pretty damn silly.

 

[Kagari]

Can't believe this is a several page spanning debate. Like I think it's previous obvious y'all care about power level consistency more than they do. Go with the the flooowwwww enjoy the ride

Listen to this man.

 

[Kyzer]

Okay, I'm just agreeing to disagree with 17's (or anyone else's) power boost being logical or making sense. We'll see how the rest of this arc pans out and see if it's addressed. I just felt like it's pretty damn silly.

youre ok with the rest of the series though

 

[Slaythe]

we've never seen telepathy of that level get blocked by anything

if it can go THROUGH THE EARTH to reach to the other side of the planet, it can reach a cave or whatever

Waves are blocked by a multitude of things.

Be it materials, sources of energy disrupting them, electromagnetism, there can be a lot of culprits.

Plus remember that we don't know if Babibi actually sent a wave through all of Earth, or targeted the humans he could feel and sent waves their way. Thinking that was all of them.

 

[ElFly]

if 17 says 'yeah, aliens of this power level come to fight me every couple of months' I'd be ok with it

Waves are blocked by a multitude of things.

Be it materials, sources of energy disrupting them, electromagnetism, there can be a lot of culprits.

Plus remember that we don't know if Babibi actually sent a wave through all of Earth, or targeted the humans he could feel and sent waves their way. Thinking that was all of them.

Imma gonna need the receipts

given that 17 had no trouble getting the Kaioh transmission, it is a stretch to say that Babidi could not get to him

and before you say that Kaioh is a god, remember that Babidi's father was taming Buu and killing gods since long ago

 

[ArchedThunder]

17 is clearly portrayed to be a SSB-tier fighter going by dialogue and Goku being "forced" into SSB rather than simply using SSJ3 or below.

Krillin was portrayed to be in the same league as SSJ1 Goku. He jobbed out base Goku and forced him to go SSJ to avoid getting pushed off the building by a beam attack and not noticeably being weaker than him in that form, if at all.

There is no actual power scaling consistency in Super so portrayals have to be taken as the authority.

Krillin was being tactical and kept Goku from being able to fight back, he didn't "job him out" Goku went Super Saiyan to save himself from a ring out because of the whole "no flying" thing. Krillin did nothing to even imply he was SSJ1 level.

 

[J4g3r]

Rosé is looking pretty good in Xenoverse 2, sure wish I enjoyed the gameplay more.

I'll probably go back and check it out when it releases regardless though.

 

[RocknRola]

That looks very cool, actually.

 

[weshes195]

power levels are cool when they are supported by plot

like in the Black saga: Trunks gets his ass kicked for a while and can only help against immortal Zamasu. his power level still makes sense after his Cell saga participation; he had improved but only so far

then the plot has him getting enraged by the Zamasus -> his power level becomes maximum and proceeds to kick ass on Black levels for a while. it was a cool moment cause it merged plot and character introspection with power levels -which are a clutch to keep the feats of strength increasing without showing it-

compare it to FTrunks getting the kill on Merged Zamasu: it makes sense in the arc that it's Trunks that gets the kill, but there is no build up nor logic to the genki sword, and thus people disliked it. it was a botched execution

so now you have a character that has been off camera and who had no training nor character development to warrant such a dramatic jump, people are gonna whine because there's nothing to justify it. there is some logic behind it (17 being a human who can train) but we didn't get to see the training or anything that warranted him becoming super powerful

even Freeza had motivation to train

I'm going to have to disagree with you on where the black plot starts to not make sense. The beginning was fine with trunks but after that it was classic dragonball. Nothing about trunks made sense with trunks power level in the whole entire arc from being able to get rage power ups to actually being a good fight against them (although still weaker) to finally "beating" them.

The black arc didn't make sense power level wise, it's just that it was either small enough (basically all of z is this) that people forgave it or there were other problems that annoyed people far more (the spirit bomb from trunks that somehow was strong enough to kill the physical form of zamasu).

And I won't go into android 17 anymore but people have already mentioned 17 HAD motivation to get stronger.