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[TTP]

hopefully this means the cheaters will not be able to play modified games online.

By the way, would Sony be able to detect those cheaters and ban their systems with this hack in place? Or would the be totally invisible to them (unless someone reports)?

 

[Magic Mushroom]

As some of you guys are far more knowledgeable on this matter than I am, I want to ask how much truth there is to those "Sony is fucked, PS3 is dead" comments?

 

[FromTheFuture]

Your statement makes it seem that you don't realize this has been the case on every hacked console .

Your statement makes it seem like you think that we want more of it.

 

[charlequin]

I've asked this question to quite a few PR people over at different publishers, and they all told me Wii piracy was a real problem (360, not so much).

Quite frankly, I don't consider PR responses about "piracy" to even be worth listening to. Wii games sell poorly for Western third-party publishers, so piracy is a "real problem" for them, while 360 games sell well for Western third-parties, so piracy is "not so much" a problem for them. Correlation is not causation.

Piracy impacts games as probably does with movies, big titles aren't affected much by it, but the more nicher titles suffer, that's one of the reasons movie studios are less willing risk and churn out wider appeal titles.

Attempts to study direct causal effects of piracy show, if anything, the opposite: the promotional benefits of piracy tend to apply only to relatively niche and unknown properties, which means they actually make up for lost sales by finding new customers in a way that blockbuster content does not.

Because security is only as strong as the weakest link (imagine a prison with 100 security features, retinal scanners for the front door, etc but a first floor window unlocked and accessible by prisoners), once someone finds that weak element, the entire security system retroactively becomes weak.

Yup. There is literally no legitimately constructed argument at this stage by which the PS3 does not have weaker security than, say, the 360: what matters in security, moreso than even in other fields, is results, and the elements which were designed poorly in the PS3's security apparatus have now rendered the numerous parts that worked well essentially irrelevant.

And as system complexity grows, the sophistication of security techniques may grow, but so does the number of potential weak points, which is part of why recently we keep seeing these systems that look completely unapproachable for years and then suddenly they tumble down completely: most of their security features really are better, and there are so many potential vectors of attack that if only one is fruitful it may take ages before anyone even gets around to trying it.

I guess so. Having Linux out of the box might have been the reason for serious hackers (like the German Chaos Computer Club, CCC) to leave the system alone.

For every system, there's some complex equation where the likelihood of hacking is based on the security of the system on the one side, and then the amount of effort and skill put into it on the other. That amount is affected by the popularity of the system, the specific features people want to enable, the openness of the system, etc. Since hacking is unpredictable, what vectors of attack are used and what features get opened up is somewhat unpredictable.

The PS3 having Linux reduced the number of hackers interested in working on it since there was no "homebrew is possible!" victory to be had. The PS3 being less popular early in its life also reduced the number of hackers interested in working on it. Both factors almost certainly increased the number of hackers interested in the system later on, though whether that increase in interest directly led to these advances is harder to judge clearly. Boiling it down to either "these factors had no effect whatsoever" or "these factors were 100% decisive" would be inaccurate.

 

[bubnbob]

As some of you guys are far more knowledgeable on this matter than I am, I want to ask how much truth there is to those "Sony is fucked, PS3 is dead" comments?

100%, pack it up it's done. You gonna cry?

 

[TTP]

As some of you guys are far more knowledgeable on this matter than I am, I want to ask how much truth there is to those "Sony is fucked, PS3 is dead" comments?

Just ask yourself if the PS1/PS2 were dead when they got hacked.

 

[ChronicleX]

Games signature might be eventually cracked, but it isn't yet because they haven't looked into the piece of code that loads them, these hackers aren't interested in doing so either.

They don't need to. They know all the calls etc the system uses, can sign their own code and bypass/disable the security. They can make their own which they will be interested in.

 

[subversus]

This sounds pretty lame.

A thriving mod scene is not worth it if it means rampant piracy and exploits in multiplayer gaming.

indeed. We have this on PC, at least consoles should be piracy-free so ports would be possible.

I doubt that it will hit Sony hard in NA and Japan but all other regions will suffer. And Sony sucks dick in NA. A bigger share of their sales come from Europe. NA market is important but still...

What I hate about this is that some moron who wanted to stroke his fucking ego ruins fun for millions of players and affects earnings of hundreds studios and devs. Assholes. That's it.

 

[NullPointer]

Your statement makes it seem like you think that we want more of it.

Exactly.

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

 

[Zombie James]

Exactly.

And for my part I;ve never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

Why buy a separate device when you do it all on one you already have?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Exactly.

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

And away we go. Well it lasted longer than most threads regarding homebrew have on GAF.

 

[iceatcs]

Just ask yourself if the PS1/PS2 were dead when they got hacked.

I think it depend how cheap to hack is more risk.

PS3 jailbreak wasn't jump because you have to buy usb stick.
PSP was massive due software mod but new psp has calm down because you have to buy battery or find spare modded psp to hack.

 

[test_account]

It wasn't just that. Under gravity, the cars should fly in an inverted parabolic trajectory (ie, something curved like an A), but in Stunts, if you pay attention, you will see that cars fly in a regular parabola (ie, something curved like the right half of an U).

Yep hehe It also had a great replay function i remember.

 

[undu]

They don't need to. They know all the calls etc the system uses, can sign their own code and bypass/disable the security. They can make their own which they will be interested in.

That's true, but at least it stops bootlegs, which are much worse because they can be sold.

If it gets cracked expect millions of bootlegs coming from china to everywhere. :/

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I will be interested when I can play emulators on my non-modded, current firmware PS3. That's the main thing I am interested in since I would love to get rid of my modified OG Xbox.

Until that time, it's all academic to me.

 

[charlequin]

So...it's like the womprat hole on the deathstar?

Precisely.

Alright, guess I was wrong then. Still hard for me to believe that hackers were happy with the state of Linux support on the PS3, but guess they were.

A lot of people were, I would say, not happy with it exactly, but basically willing to accept it as an olive branch. Even gimped Linux on the PS3 was an order of magnitude more openness than any other closed gaming system, and (most importantly) it gave access to the Cell which was the most interesting and novel thing to program for on the PS3 even though it was pretty useless for most of the traditional end-user purposes people hack boxes for. I think it's likely that there were people who basically felt duty-bound to give PS3 a break due to that B+ effort by Sony and who basically felt that it got personal when that support was pulled from the Slim.

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits.

Because it's there.

 

[Emitan]

Exactly.

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

Because being able to back up all my games so I can launch them without changing disks and faster load times is totally worthless. And I can spend hundreds of dollars on a new HTPC instead of using hardware I already own! How awesome is that?

 

[test_account]

Is there any point of releasing this private key? I mean, homebrew already works fine on the PS3, so is there any advantage of releasing this key?

 

[kittoo]

This sounds pretty lame.

A thriving mod scene is not worth it if it means rampant piracy and exploits in multiplayer gaming.

Exactly my position.
But it has happened, and seems bad.

 

[iceatcs]

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

People like do something nonsense, like these people coding virus for laugh.

 

[NullPointer]

And away we go. Well it lasted longer than most threads regarding homebrew have on GAF.

No need to get sidetracked, was just saying my peace. I've seen a ton of these homebrew / security threads on GAF over the years, and some are perfectly fine.

I just don't like the celebration in some quarters of what will have an adverse effect towards gaming. That's if this latest security hole does enable easy piracy and exploits.

Because it's there.

You're right of course, but I just hope the worst aspects of this are kept to a minimum somehow.

 

[Blimblim]

Quite frankly, I don't consider PR responses about "piracy" to even be worth listening to. Wii games sell poorly for Western third-party publishers, so piracy is a "real problem" for them, while 360 games sell well for Western third-parties, so piracy is "not so much" a problem for them. Correlation is not causation.

These were off the record conversations, no PR guy that I know will ever officially talk about sales or even worse piracy. Wii piracy is utterly rampant here in France, I can't count the number of people I know with a "homebrewed" Wii console and dozens of games on it, and while I also know a few people with a hacked 360, the difference is quite staggering.

 

[androvsky]

I think it's likely that there were people who basically felt duty-bound to give PS3 a break due to that B+ effort by Sony

Definitely. I was following the dev scene from the PS3's launch up until the Slim hit, and though there were efforts to access the RSX, even then everyone was very careful not to touch the gaming side, or do anything that would be considered a copyright violation (looking at leaked SDKs, etc).

and who basically felt that it got personal when that support was pulled from the Slim.

That's definitely true too, especially now that we've seen that it wouldn't have taken any real effort to support linux on the Slim. Not only did Sony pull support, they lied about the reason. That got a lot of attention from people who wouldn't have care otherwise. Granted, the one guy Sony had working on linux support is now porting large chunks of the Chrome web browser to the PS3, but I think everyone would agree that they would've been better off hiring another guy.

Yes, linux on the PS3 had poor support from the community, but it was largely due to it being too expensive for the average hacker who didn't care about playing games on it. The moment where support was likely going to take off was with the pricedrop on the Slim... and that's where Sony killed it. Yes, people were upset.

 

[ElFly]

Yep hehe It also had a great replay function i remember.

Yessss.

When I first got internet access was when the game started to be ruined for me.

I downloaded some replays that did ridiculous crashes, like, skid vicious driving in a car faster than the player's, into a loop which he would fly off and land on top of the player's car, which I knew I would not be able to reproduce (and didn't even think of before) that simply killed my interest in finding new exploits.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

People like do something nonsense, like these people coding virus for laugh.

Huh?

 

[iceatcs]

Huh?

Programming to make a virus file.

 

[gofreak]

Yup. There is literally no legitimately constructed argument at this stage by which the PS3 does not have weaker security than, say, the 360: what matters in security, moreso than even in other fields, is results, and the elements which were designed poorly in the PS3's security apparatus have now rendered the numerous parts that worked well essentially irrelevant.

The fact it was untouched for so long is to their credit though and is 'security'. The safest system is the one ignored. It may not have been secure because of the technical security of the system (or as it turns out, its keys), but in the broader sense, socially engineering hackers to basically ignore the PS3 via that 'olive branch' of Linux was one of the smartest parts of their broader security strategy. I think it is a lesson for the future (for Sony, for any platform provider), but next time they might want to go to greater length's to ensure the security of any open sandbox they might provide.

But anyway, I don't fully buy that it was completely ignored and people only turned their attention to this in the last few months. These particular hackers may have, but others had been working on it for years. There was just less 'talent' focussed on the system before. A confluence of things brought us to this point, these guys built on work that took years to emerge.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Programming to make virus file.

No, I understood that. I wasnt sure if you were implying that is what these guys are doing.

 

[ElFly]

Exactly.

And for my part I've never understood the desire to jailbreak gaming consoles for any purpose other than piracy and exploits. If you want an open media center or emulation device you can get a cheap PC.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

I guess we'll never see any worthwhile rewards system for trophies, if people can just cheat their way to them. Sucks for that #1 guy in the Middle East, who beat the same games from multiple regions, just to boost his trophy count.

Yeah. Online cheating will suck. We'll just have to deal with it, or stick to playing with friends. But, the PS3 (especially the original models) is such a capable machine, I look forward to seeing what homebrew apps will be developed for it. It can be an amazingly versatile all-in-one box.

 

[AAK]

Ah well, at least PS3 can finally start selling in 3rd world countries.

 

[amrod]

360 has piracy... its still doing well

 

[H_Prestige]

Even if people start cheating in online games, can't they just get banned?

 

[Callibretto]

Definitely. I was following the dev scene from the PS3's launch up until the Slim hit, and though there were efforts to access the RSX, even then everyone was very careful not to touch the gaming side, or do anything that would be considered a copyright violation (looking at leaked SDKs, etc).



That's definitely true too, especially now that we've seen that it wouldn't have taken any real effort to support linux on the Slim. Not only did Sony pull support, they lied about the reason. That got a lot of attention from people who wouldn't have care otherwise. Granted, the one guy Sony had working on linux support is now porting large chunks of the Chrome web browser to the PS3, but I think everyone would agree that they would've been better off hiring another guy.

Yes, linux on the PS3 had poor support from the community, but it was largely due to it being too expensive for the average hacker who didn't care about playing games on it. The moment where support was likely going to take off was with the pricedrop on the Slim... and that's where Sony killed it. Yes, people were upset.

so they did it for the lulz? they're pissed off with Sony so they plan to hack it even though they never show interest for years and fully knowing that their hack can potentially cost Sony millions of dollars?

 

[iceatcs]

No, I understood that. I wasnt sure if you were implying that is what these guys are doing.

I'm not implying anyone.

I was saying people have strange thing to desire for other reasons. Such as like pride competition, example - who is the quickest cracker or who made most spread virus etc..

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Just ask yourself if the PS1/PS2 were dead when they got hacked.

If anything Sony may benefit in the short term. A system that is easy to pirate can spur hardware sales. Publishers are going to be pissed though so any 'positives' for Sony will dry up quickly.


Sony will try and run them down, but the scene will lead them on a merry chase.

 

[lupinko]

so they did it for the lulz? they're pissed off with Sony so they plan to hack it even though they never show interest for years and fully knowing that their hack can potentially cost Sony millions of dollars?

I guess you can say that.

 

[luca_29_bg]

@fail0verflow

Note: we won't be working long-term on CFW or similar. We'll release tools and a PoC, someone else can take over. The fun part is done

predictable....

 

[androvsky]

If anything Sony may benefit in the short term. A system that is easy to pirate can spur hardware sales. Publishers are going to be pissed though so any 'positives' for Sony will dry up quickly.


Sony will try and run them down, but the scene will lead them on a merry chase.

PS3 sales obviously didn't jump with the jailbreak release.

 

[Zapages]

would this allow user to play music/videos and such from portable hard drives? I have tons of music I like to play while playing other games, but its on my portable hard drive?

 

[N.A]

would this allow user to play music/videos and such from portable hard drives? I have tons of music I like to play while playing other games, but its on my portable hard drive?

Someone is working on a mplayer port. So yes, eventually. Maybe not in game though.

 

[brotkasten]

so they did it for the lulz? they're pissed off with Sony so they plan to hack it even though they never show interest for years and fully knowing that their hack can potentially cost Sony millions of dollars?

It's probably about the challenge (and eFame; "First!").

 

[Steve Youngblood]

so they did it for the lulz? they're pissed off with Sony so they plan to hack it even though they never show interest for years and fully knowing that their hack can potentially cost Sony millions of dollars?

I'm not sure why the bolded is there. Concern for the platform holder's bottom line would rarely ever enter into a hacker's decision making. The type of person who can pull this off would range from an open-platform advocate at best (i.e. someone likely to be ambivalent about a company's financials) to a piracy-advocate at worst.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

PS3 sales obviously didn't jump with the jailbreak release.

Because it is too 'specialised' - you need a very specific type of stick to be able to do it. Sony also caught it with a firmware update just in time, right before GT5 and Black Ops which people obviously want to play.

With this, anyone can do it themselves in minutes with no specialised hardware. There is also the chance that we will still get support for newer games and online, like what GEN firmware on PSP and PSNfucker accomplishes.

 

[spons]

Even if people start cheating in online games, can't they just get banned?

It's just another non-argument. Find hacker, report hacker, hacker gets his ass removed from PSN/Live. That strategy has worked with PC games just fine, especially if you lose your steam account with all games on it.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

It's just another non-argument. Find hacker, report hacker, hacker gets his ass removed from PSN/Live. That strategy has worked with PC games just fine, especially if you lose your steam account with all games on it.

Just fpr accuracy sakes; you dont lose access to any Steam game for hacking, just the VAC servers of games that use the engine of the game you cheated on.

 

[H_Prestige]

Because it is too 'specialised' - you need a very specific type of stick to be able to do it. Sony also caught it with a firmware update just in time, right before GT5 and Black Ops which people obviously want to play.

With this, anyone can do it themselves in minutes with no specialised hardware. There is also the chance that we will still get support for newer games and online, like what GEN firmware on PSP and PSNfucker accomplishes.

Not to mention you won't even need to hack the ps3 to run apps. It literally couldn't be easier.

 

[abuC]

'



My 360 is modded, and my PS3 will join it.

 

[charlequin]

These were off the record conversations, no PR guy that I know will ever officially talk about sales or even worse piracy.

I wasn't suggesting that the PR guys were lying to you, I was suggesting that they were telling you things they honestly believed but which were more based on predictable emotional reactions that happen at publishing/development companies and less on any actual factual data. Neither developers nor pirates are reliable sources of information about the effect of piracy on a game market.

The fact it was untouched for so long is to their credit though and is 'security'.

It's very much a credit to their original strategy of trying to keep hobbyist hackers off of the platform by placating them and thereby leaving only the professional pirates working on it, I agree. If I were Sony (or a competitor) I would take that away as a lesson: incentivizing hobbyists not to hack your system can help slow down the discovery of even glaring security flaws and is in many ways worth just as much as complex security technology (and is especially effective in combination with complex security technology.)

Other than that I don't really consider the "well they made it four years!" standard particularly applicable or worthwhile; plenty of older systems went a large portion of their lifespan without getting hacked too, and close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

so they did it for the lulz? they're pissed off with Sony so they plan to hack it even though they never show interest for years and fully knowing that their hack can potentially cost Sony millions of dollars?

Lots of things can "cost Sony millions of dollars." If I worked at a major outlet and wrote a scathing review of a new software release that exposed major problems with the title, that action would almost certainly also "cost Sony millions of dollars" but I certainly wouldn't see anything wrong with doing so. As a private citizen I have no responsibility to the profitability of any corporation.

 

[KAL2006]

Because it is too 'specialised' - you need a very specific type of stick to be able to do it. Sony also caught it with a firmware update just in time, right before GT5 and Black Ops which people obviously want to play.

With this, anyone can do it themselves in minutes with no specialised hardware. There is also the chance that we will still get support for newer games and online, like what GEN firmware on PSP and PSNfucker accomplishes.

So let me get this straight, this hack could lead to the possibility of playing any backup games no matter the firmware, and also will let us play online.