Support NeoGAF

[Black Republican]

million hoodie march trending on twitter

 

[planar1280]

How can the guy who shot him live with such guilt

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Reason would suggest, you confront someone after stalking them and apparently angrily demand what they're doing, you're instigating a fight. Happens all the time in bars. Therefore, if you get attacked in a fight, you have no right to pull a deadly weapon out and end their life.

That's my opinion.

that's also the law here in Florida. If you are the aggressor, neither 'Stand Your Ground' nor 'Self-Defense' applies or can be claimed.

 

[faceless007]

I read somewhere (not a news story) Zimmerman has disappeared and no one knows where he is?

 

[Korey]

I read somewhere (not a news story) Zimmerman has disappeared and no one knows where he is?

We don't know where he is but I'm sure his parents do. I read in the news that he didn't even get a lawyer.

He could literally be anywhere in the world right now. Although in reality he's probably holed up somewhere in Florida.

 

[Mortrialus]

Well after reading some of the latest developments, my thoughts are this isn't a black or white thing (no pun intended) with racial profiling. Was the kid profiled and thought suspicious by the way he looked, including being black? Probably. But it sounds to me like this guy would have started the same shit with a white kid with tattoos and his pants sagging or something just as much. And if a black person was actually a man, in a suit, carrying a Bible door to door or something I doubt he would have done anything.

Not that any of that matters, because he did profile the kid for some reason, but I hate hearing all the semantics of the racial profiling or not. For whatever reason, he was wrongly profiling an innocent person as a threat, and that's all that matter.

If you listen to the 911 call that Zimmerman made, he likely called Martin a "Fucking coon", a racial epithet.

I'm very much a 'stand your ground' law kind of guy. My philosophy in life is, if you attack someone and you get shot and killed, be it in your home, vehicle, or out on the street - that's your own fault. The problem is, this guy didn't stand his ground. He saw someone he thought was suspicious and made himself suspicious to him by stalking him, as the person the kid was on the phone with recalled. Not only that, but he confronted the kid for no reason.

There is such a thing as reasonable degrees of force.

 

[Derwind]

Well after reading some of the latest developments, my thoughts are this isn't a black or white thing (no pun intended) with racial profiling. Was the kid profiled and thought suspicious by the way he looked, including being black? Probably. But it sounds to me like this guy would have started the same shit with a white kid with tattoos and his pants sagging or something just as much. And if a black person was actually a man, in a suit, carrying a Bible door to door or something I doubt he would have done anything.

Not that any of that matters, because he did profile the kid for some reason, but I hate hearing all the semantics of the racial profiling or not. For whatever reason, he was wrongly profiling an innocent person as a threat, and that's all that matter.

I'm very much a 'stand your ground' law kind of guy. My philosophy in life is, if you attack someone and you get shot and killed, be it in your home, vehicle, or out on the street - that's your own fault. The problem is, this guy didn't stand his ground. He saw someone he thought was suspicious and made himself suspicious to him by stalking him, as the person the kid was on the phone with recalled. Not only that, but he confronted the kid for no reason.

Reason would suggest, you confront someone after stalking them and apparently angrily demand what they're doing, you're instigating a fight. Happens all the time in bars. Therefore, if you get attacked in a fight, you have no right to pull a deadly weapon out and end their life.

That's my philosophy. There's three stages of a confrontation in my mind. Verbal, physical, and deadly weapon. You instigate the verbal for no reason, it should be reasonably expected for the confrontation to escalate to physical - where you should defend yourself on that plane because you started the mess in the first place. You pull out a deadly weapon and want to claim victim for the mess you started - your ass should get the chair.

That's my opinion.

Regardless of whether racial profiling happened or not, the kid was unfairly categorized as a suspicious person, was stalked, pursued and eventually killed.

The majority of the outrage in this thread lies with the shitty conduct of the police and the pathetic investigation and the incredible shielding Zimmerman had from the PD.

Even now after so much came to light, the Police Chief acts like a snarky asshole that was the victim in the whole case.

The victim is the fucking kid, he's dead, for carrying candy and a soft drink in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong time of day....

 

[TheNatural]

that's also the law here in Florida. If you are the aggressor, neither 'Stand Your Ground' nor 'Self-Defense' applies or can be claimed.

Yeah, the police are using this as the excuse to not arrested him, but if this were the case, where do you draw the line? There are lots and lots of situations where something verbal escalates to physical because of a threat or harrassment by someone.to someone else. If someone gets "whats coming to them" in the form of a punch or whatever else because that person was harrassing his wife or something, does that mean in response to a punch you can just pull a gun and shoot them?

Seems like some really twisted way of trolling. This is a ridiculous precedent to set.

 

[TheNatural]

If you listen to the 911 call that Zimmerman made, he likely called Martin a "Fucking coon", a racial epithet.

There is such a thing as reasonable degrees of force.

I'm actually agreeing with you, so I'm not sure why you're quoting what I'm saying. I'm in fact saying it was completely unreasonable for the guy to do this, I'm just saying from the start I usually support these types of laws with home invasion and other similar circumstances, but this does not fit the bill and the guy should be punished harshly.

 

[GotEmRunnin]

How can the guy who shot him live with such guilt

In the state of Florida and other smaller pockets around this great nation. We people of African descent are treated lesser than horses. i.e animals. i.e no souls. To kill one of us is as simple as killing an insect to some people.

 

[speedline]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

 

[Mortrialus]

I'm actually agreeing with you, so I'm not sure why you're quoting what I'm saying. I'm in fact saying it was completely unreasonable for the guy to do this, I'm just saying from the start I usually support these types of laws with home invasion and other similar circumstances, but this does not fit the bill and the guy should be punished harshly.

I agree that even if Zimmerman hadn't called Martin a racial epithet, it would still be wrong. While we aren't 100% certain of what he said, if you listen to his 911 call he definitely sounds like he called Martin a "fucking coon", so I'm disagreeing with you that there wasn't a racial aspect to it.

Your comment "if you attack someone and get killed..that's your own fault" is vague. I couldn't really discern what you meant by attack, and what levels you think should be required for deadly force to be legal.

 

[zoku88]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

I'm reasonably sure that "Hispanic" isn't a race.

I think you can be considered a white hispanic, black hispanic, etc.

 

[Angelus Errare]

While he was racially profiling, at first he wasn't sure what race the kid was (just that he wasn't white). He seemed more concerned by the fact that he was wearing a hood and he was young, despite that it was apparently raining and non-criminals wear hoods, too. But apparently walking in the rain is suspicious activity as well. I wanna know what he was doing that made the kid run. Was he already following him before he called 911? Standing outside staring at him?

Listening to the tape, when asked what race Trayvon was, he answered pretty sure he's black without hesitation.

 

[speedline]

In the state of Florida and other smaller pockets around this great nation. We people of African descent are treated lesser than horses. i.e animals. i.e no souls. To kill one of us is as simple as killing an insect to some people.

Give me a fucking break.

 

[Derwind]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

He's half Hispanic right? I guess the Hispanic portion of his DNA lessens the severity of the issue, right?

If he's a bigot, then he's a bigot, regardless of what minority he may be associated with.

 

[Big Baybee]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

He's mixed. Also, its not impossible for minorities to be racist towards other minorities.

 

[Korey]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

He's half white/half hispanic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

In the police report Zimmerman is listed as white.

His family has been making the rounds emphasizing his Hispanic side to downplay the racist aspect of this story.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Yea you're absolutely right on bolded, I am. Why? Because as I just pointed, it has been the prevailing sentiment of this thread from the very beginning--even before there was any real evidence to suggest one way or the other. This case just happened to involve a supposedly white guy that killed a black guy, he wasn't charged for whatever reason (controversial law, police ineptitude, or whatever it turns out to be) so lets roll out the racism bandwagon (both on Zimmerman and the PD) and convict him on those grounds instead Anything that may have come to light after the fact has no bearing on anything I just said--all those ideas existed when the only details available were "White 28yo Community Watch Captain shoots and kills unarmed 17yo Black Kid". It wouldn't have mattered if Zimmerman had turned out to be black, an active member of the NAACP, and had interned for Rev. Sharpton--all of those comments I just quoted would still have existed and that's the whole point.

I don't know every little detail like some of you guys as my participation has been limited, but from what I gather the racism assertions are still sketchy at best. Apparently there's some unintelligible recording where he says either punk or coon and I've seen offhanded references to some after-the-fact, hear-say, "character witnesses" that suggest he may have racially profiled black people while on watch. I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed something, so please bring it to my attention. In any event, even assuming all this were true, it still doesn't mean he chose to approach the kid because he was black (as I've mentioned, he has apparently had a history of confronting non-black people as well), and it certainly doesn't mean he chose to shoot and kill him because he was black. There is a huge gap between casually using a slur, profiling black people as possible mischief makers, and deciding to kill them in cold blood.

So basically, you're still feigning ignorance about knowing (or at least, trying to learn more about) all of the details, and you're simply back to champion how you were right about "how it's not racism" earlier in the thread. Kudos!

I also applaud your brave skepticism of anything that might support the thought that race was a factor in why George Zimmerman targeted Trayvon Martin for an aggressive pursuit.

As for your last point, there would be two gaps in such a metaphor...and the jump between the first and second one is about as big as jumping over a crack in the sidewalk.

Obviously the second gap is a bit larger...but the seeming hatred George displayed for his eventual victim is not insignificant, and the perception he had versus the actual truth...well, the jump isn't as far as it was before the 911 calls were released.

One last thing: you do realize I also bolded that you were a clown, right? Context stays the same in either interpretation. You've had plenty of time to demonstrate your views on race, and they've all been laughably misguided:

I'll go from the end and work back. Zimmerman, 20-something year old, killed a kid, 17, after getting into a scuffle and CLAIMED it was self defense.

I don't know the specifics of the case, or whether the two actually got into a physical altercation, but these are foolish assumptions to make without actually seeing those involved. I'm pushing 30, 6', and weigh 135 lbs. A 17 year old "kid" could definitely beat my ass and curb stomp my head. Most 17yo "kids" are for all intents and purposes full grown adults, many of whom weight train and condition for sports. The black guy could have been a lineman on the football team for all we know. It's beyond stupid to say "oh, this guy was in his 20's, there's no way a 17yo posed a thread". You realize most of the gangbangers that go around beating people to death for fun are in their teens, right?

You literally called a levelheaded statement out as part of a post of "foolish assumptions", then go on to make absolutely outlandish (and some would say ignorant) assumptions yourself. Of course, there's more:

We're talking about gangbanger's because it's a verifiable example of "kids" that routinely beat people to death. I know you're trying to imply that was a racist remark, but gangbangers are a diverse group--commonly white, black, latino, and every color in between. It's also likely to be the white guys defense, that he thought the black kid was a gangbanger out on initiation or something.

and this exchange:

But it was a racist remark... nowhere in any of the articles or any information released suggested that this kid was a gangbanger. You pulled that little nugget of bullshit straight out of your ass, based off of nothing other than the fact that the kid was black.

The reality is, gang related initiations are the only examples I'm familiar with where "kids" will routinely go and beat random adults to death in random locations.

You basically tell someone that they can't use age as a metric in describing the case, because a 17 year old kid could be a large black lineman or a gangbanger who decided to target the Neighborhood Watch captain for initiation. When confronted on your dense examples of young threatening black males, you basically admit you don't know shit.

Here's one more fun response, about the initiation idea:

So initiation was to go grab some skittles and tea?

What are you even talking about? I'm not even going to waste time explaining that, as you're clearly just trolling.

So we're like 6 dumb ass posts in, and you basically prove that you didn't even read the article, but are somehow reading everyone else's posts to monitor for uses of the race card:

Personally, I think there are only a few potential ways this case played out:

A) This guy was honestly just trying to keep an eye on his neighborhood and would followed and approached any unrecognized individual out for a stroll at this time (be they white, black, brown, yellow, young, old, or crippled). Supposing that, it seems unlikely he would have approached this individual threateningly--banishing a gun or tossing slurs and epithets. In such a case, the "victim" would have had to have been the aggressor--perhaps taking offense to being following, playing the race card out of nowhere, and/or threatening/starting physical violence which eventually resulted in the shooting.

B) This guy was a Grade A racist fuck who happened to spot a black kid prowling his neighborhood, followed him, and approached him in an obviously threatening/condescending/racist manner. Threw the first punch, and ultimately pulled the gun and shot him.

C) Some combination of A and B.

It really sad to see so many people convinced it's scenario B with so little apparent evidence.

You are the neighborhood watch captain of this thread.

 

[akira28]

They made an actual race card, and then played it. Also, he has plenty of black friends.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Just going by what we know as fact there's enough for an arrest. Whether or not there's enough for a conviction should be up to a judge and jury.

But for fucks sake...how can you possibly claim self defense when *YOU* are the person to continually escalate the confrontation?! I just don't fucking get it.

It boggles my mind how the police department could not arrest him.

It couldn't possibly be self defense. He had the threatening weapon, the kid just had skittles and a container of tea. I guess if the tea was contained in glass he could have broken it and used it as a weapon, but that's a close ranged weapon at worse. Show the gun and tell him to back off, shoot at his legs to hit and if you miss as a warning if he continue to advance at you. This guy was just out for blood.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Also, he has plenty of black friends.

funny guy.

 

[TheNatural]

I agree that even if Zimmerman hadn't called Martin a racial epithet, it would still be wrong. While we aren't 100% certain of what he said, if you listen to his 911 call he definitely sounds like he called Martin a "fucking coon", so I'm disagreeing with you that there wasn't a racial aspect to it.

Your comment "if you attack someone and get killed..that's your own fault" is vague. I couldn't really discern what you meant by attack, and what levels you think should be required for deadly force to be legal.

I was referring to invading someone's house or other residence, which is primarily what these laws pertain to.

 

[Sanky Panky]

He's mixed. Also, its not impossible for minorities to be racist towards other minorities.

As a hispanic myself, we (not myself) can be some of the most racist people against blacks still around.

 

[Mortrialus]

I was referring to invading someone's house or other residence, which is primarily what these laws pertain to.

Pretty sure the law expands it towards any area you can legally reside in.

 

[Korey]

Thought this was a cool headline:

Florida man chose wrong ground to stand on

 

[TheNatural]

Pretty sure the law expands it towards any area you can legally reside in.

Well semantics. You get the jist of my point, that what this guy did had nothing to do with what those laws were intending so he shouldn't get protection from them.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Well semantics. You get the jist of my point, that what this guy did had nothing to do with what those laws were intending so he shouldn't get protection from them.

and he will not.

 

[Black Republican]

They made an actual race card, and then played it. Also, he has plenty of black friends.

for rent?

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

I'm curious as to why the media is portraying Zimmerman as a white guy, he is Hispanic.

Because the police report described him as white?

 

[akira28]

funny guy.

His dad actually sent that in to the Sentinel via his statement : "George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends."

for rent?

I always wonder, when people say this, if suddenly all the black guys they know get the friendship upgrade from mere acquaintance. Somehow, "hey I know plenty of black guys" doesn't sound all that friendly or convincing.

 

[cj_iwakura]

In the state of Florida and other smaller pockets around this great nation. We people of African descent are treated lesser than horses. i.e animals. i.e no souls. To kill one of us is as simple as killing an insect to some people.

As a Floridian, I take offense to this. I live in South Florida, and a VAST majority of people who I work and live near are black, and we all get along fine.

Don't let one gun-toting psycho sour you on the entire state.

 

[user8503492]

As a hispanic myself, we (not myself) can be some of the most racist people against blacks still around.

This.

Most of my best friends and circle of buddies are hispanic and are the EXTREMELY racist when it comes to blacks.

Even online I play late night on the east coast so a lot of the pub games I join on Live or PSN are dominated by Cali hispanics and they are constantly droppign hate speech like its thier job.

Dont know why tho

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

So, what kind of things can the other police be tried for in this case? I do not just want to see Zimmerman go to prison for life I'd also like to see the other people/police involved in this cover-up see prison time as well. I really don't want to see some of them get some stupid one month paid probation or whatever other dumb shit gets thought up to keep them from being punished for helping someone get away with murder.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This.

Most of my best friends and circle of buddies are hispanic and are the EXTREMELY racist when it comes to blacks.

Even online I play late night on the east coast so a lot of the pub games I join on Live or PSN are dominated by Cali hispanics and they are constantly droppign hate speech like its thier job.

Dont know why tho

South and Central America are very...disappointing...when it comes to issues of race and skin tone.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Karma's a bitch. One way or another, that bastard will get his.

 

[GotEmRunnin]

As a Floridian, I take offense to this. I live in South Florida, and a VAST majority of people who I work and live near are black, and we all get along fine.

Don't let one gun-toting psycho sour you on the entire state.

As a South Carolinian the gators already have me soured on your entire state, but that's another story.

Also South Florida is vastly different when compared to any other part of Florida. There's a saying that goes "the further north you go in Florida the more southern the state becomes."

 

[Reallink]

You are incredibly ignorant to believe he wasn't


Than again, with you equating Trayvon as a gangbanger....I'm not at all surprised.

My comments are based on the evidence. I've been forced into the position of "negating the racist angle" because that's what it suggests to me, and because this thread has been unfairly one sided from the very beginning. If you have information that's sufficiently compelling or irrefutable, please add it. If it happens to come out that Zimmerman has ties to the KKK, extremist skin head groups, or something along those lines--that's great. Your prejudices and biases happened to be correct, but you were still wrong for judging/labeling him in the first place--when it was based on nothing tangible. Without that, you are in effect racially profiling Zimmerman because he happens to be of a different race than the victim.

 

[cj_iwakura]

As a South Carolinian the gators already have me soured on your entire state, but that's another story.

Also South Florida is vastly different when compared to any other part of Florida. There's a saying that goes "the further north you go in Florida the more southern the state becomes."

Good thing I went to USF.


And that is very true. Central-North Florida is white trash city.

 

[squidyj]

His dad actually sent that in to the Sentinel via his statement : "George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends."


I always wonder, when people say this, if suddenly all the black guys they know get the friendship upgrade from mere acquaintance. Somehow, "hey I know plenty of black guys" doesn't sound all that friendly or convincing.

I tell you what man, if I had friends, I'd totally have black friends, but not just black friends, black lesbian friends. I gotta economize that shit. Efficiency yo. Hitting 3 demographics at the same time.

 

[Black Republican]

This.

Most of my best friends and circle of buddies are hispanic and are the EXTREMELY racist when it comes to blacks.

Even online I play late night on the east coast so a lot of the pub games I join on Live or PSN are dominated by Cali hispanics and they are constantly droppign hate speech like its thier job.

Dont know why tho

pfft, we let ya'll get a pass for saying nigga

Spoiler

i love latinos! Big Pun is one of my fav rappers!

 

[BruiserBear]

I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Many of the victims of those Chicago shootings are the same age as Trayvon, so the tragedy is no less sad.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Internets.

Stories that continue to receive attention do so because of the ratings and traffic tv and websites see. If people are talking about it, the news wants to cover it to make money.

No more no less.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Because of the sloppy way this was handled.

-The crime was not immediately reported to the public. The police sat on it for three days.
-The killer is 100% identified, and STILL AT LARGE.
-Unarmed black minor.

If their roles were reversed, you bet your rear that kid would be on trial already.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Without that, you are in effect racially profiling Zimmerman because he happens to be of a different race than the victim.

Oh Lord.

 

[TheNatural]

I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Race + Age + Provocation (or lack thereof.) Then the police fuck ups and lack of prosecution (so far.) It's all the elements of what makes for a huge national story with a lot of attention. The only thing that could make it any bigger is if some hot young blonde 18 year old went missing for some reason tied into this.

 

[Korey]

I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Many of the victims of those Chicago shootings are the same age as Trayvon, so the tragedy is no less sad.

It's because of the nature of the crime. We know for a fact who the murderer is, and yet literally nothing has happened to him because the police department is run by morons. So there's crookedness all around. Also the fact that the victim was a high school student who was black while walking and was armed with skittles.

 

[Lemonz]

CNN: Vote of "no confidence" in Sanford police chief.

 

[BruiserBear]

Because of the sloppy way this was handled.

-The crime was not immediately reported to the public. The police sat on it for three days.
-The killer is 100% identified, and STILL AT LARGE.
-Unarmed black minor.

If their roles were reversed, you bet your rear that kid would be on trial already.

Define "reported to the public"? Are you suggesting the cops were going to cover this up? I mean, it's not like the entire neighborhood this happened in were just going to never talk of it again.

Still at large? They know who he is, and they know where he is. They're trying to determine what the charges are, but there is no doubt he will be charged with a serious crime for this kid's death.

What does race have to do with this story? As I pointed out a moment ago, young black males are shot every day in Chicago, where I live, and I don't see massive outpouring of rage and anger about those incidents.

Why is this one different? I've read all the key facts, and I'm struggling to understand why this case blew up.

 

[Trojita]

Seeing picture of Trayvon: Wow that is one of the least threatening looking guys I've ever seen.

Seeing picture of Zimmerman: That guy doesn't look white at all.

Man they fucked up this on every fucking level. How the hell do you have a narcotics investigator investigating a homicide?