Karsticles
Member
Doom has all the mobility problems Morrigan does.
Amaterasu and Nova go well together, though. Something like Nova/Projectile Assist/Amaterasu is good.
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Fighting Games Weekly | May 20-26 | MRN died so Guilty Gear could live!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Amaterasu and Nova go well together, though. Something like Nova/Projectile Assist/Amaterasu is good.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Let it rock
I saw that. That guy got banned on Twitch. So I don't see why that's a problem.
The guy who was masturbating on stream didn't, though.
I mean, how hard is it to understand that people get upset when being singled out or painted with a broad brush? Seems pretty cut and dried to me. And the notion that the scene hasn't hiveminded to one particular thought process means it's not a community is just downright dumb.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Here's where I'm coming from on this - I'm quoting from a convo I had with Karst one day along these same lines:
I run a bi-weekly trivia night here in Portland. We get 200 people at every one. And to settle ties, I bring down my fightsticks, boot up some Street Fighter, and that's how ties are broken. The number of people in this trivia night that have a passing knowledge of fighting games is MAYBE 7, if you don't count me. Yet it's become a legitimate attraction. People will show up and compete SIMPLY to watch the tiebreakers, and they are audibly upset when there aren't any.
And we're talking about SCRUBBY play. Super-scrubby. But even then, the attendees have started to pick out who is okay, who isn't, who probably deserves to get their shit wrecked - and there are now individual trivia players who have FANS when it comes to getting up in front of everybody and playing Street Fighter on a 30ft screen. And people have been (and still do) PRACTICE at home for the chance they might end up on that screen.
So if that sort of thing can organically happen, and appeal to a wide number of people who never even play the game, all without the help of what "Fighting Game Community" there is in this town (and they're here, they're just kinda insular and disorganized) - I have a hard time believing it's the genre of fighting games itself that limits viewership.
If anything, fighting games are way better built for this kinda stuff than Starcraft. You can get a sense for the individual players, their styles, their personalities. It makes it way easier to root for/against somebody. Way easier to invest.
There's a tremendous amount of potential being left on the table, and it's frustrating.
edit: getting the fuck out of Spooky's way is solid advice. Or doing what you can to help the man. Either/or. Preferably both.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I don't get where you're coming from here. LoL and DOTA's online communities have a reputation for being some of the worst, most immature online communities. The only big ESports title I watch streams for is DOTA and I find way homophobia (namely calling things gay) from the GD Studio crew on their smaller shows than I do any of the mainstream FGC streamers, yet Valve just let them host the qualifiers for the largest E-Sports event in existence.
As for the chat, go watch view any stream that features Soe and it's inevitable that at some point 20% of the chat will be dedicated to posting a a picture of her/someone that looks like her giving somebody a blowjob. Do the people running the show take measures like Sp00ky and enable subscriber only mode for big events? No they don't, mods just delete the links as fast as they came which gives people more than enough time to post/click them.
I think it's pretty crazy for people to think viewing figures don't blow up due to the community. Fighters don't blow up because there's no game out the with a consistent user-base anywhere near the size the LoL or DOTA and it's as simple of that. As for the twitch chat mess you simply can't expect there not to be a large amount of twats on the internet, it's up to Twitch to place barriers to the chat access however they won't because they're afraid of losing viewers.
But due to its simplicity,its catered to one audience. Fighting games has a potential wider range. also dota style takes time to learn,and sit to watch. fgc streams are simple,short,and also allow breaks.and obviously,betting.
call_kotaku
Member
You're assuming that esports is a community-driven enterprise though, and it really isn't. As it is right now, it's primarily a venture-capital phenomenon, and pretty much always has been, I don't think anybody is making a sizable profit from ads or subscriptions. MLG has been losing money for 10 years and tried repeatedly to ditch the ad revenue model because it wasn't consistent or profitable enough. GSL only runs because of a significant subsidy from Blizzard and both the WCS, TI, and LCS are funded directly by the game developers. Last year and this year saw the bubble that cropped up from SC2 and LoL deflate a bit, since a ton of investment was based on growth projections that didn't really come to pass, and MLG/GSL downscaled while IPL went under. The sort of thing that Korean Brood War was in 2006 has yet to be replicated, and just because it happened once in Korea for a little while doesn't mean it's a sure thing for the rest of the world, or that their model is sustainable.
I'm beginning to be more convinced that the vast majority of esports evangelists in the FGC have never actually watched an esports event. A ton of it just doesn't make sense, because in general the commentators try very hard to fit a specific mold and the amount of downtime/bullshit between matches is staggering. Most of these broadcasts are meant to maintain a consistent level of production, even at the expense of content, and try to provide as much of a "sports-like" experience as possible: all of it so they can show it to investors who don't really understand the idea of competitive gaming, I suspect.
What you're describing is great and I think it's what a community should be about, but it's absolutely not what Esports is about.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Which means nothing at all when the only people who are going to sit in front of their PC to watch an event are those who are already invested in playing fighting games. Unless there's a huge cultural shift where it becomes the norm for mainstream society to watch competitive video game events then that's not going to change. The only realistic way that fighters could potentially receive LoL figures is if they adopt the same business model and given how people who developer fighters consider PC releases to be laughable that's not likely to happen.
toddhunter
Member
Interesting thoughts and I can't argue with any of that.
I will add though that what Valve is doing with Dota seems to be a bit different. They are essentially "crowd sourcing" a lot of the prize money from what I can tell through selling items, which has resulted in some huge looking pots. Obviously with that on offer a lot of the rest of the puzzle takes care of itself (and a whole new set of problems is introduced at the same time).
If the legalities could be sorted, the fgc could do the same thing (just look at skullgirls or evo donation drive) and it would all blow up very quickly given the right structures and supporting games are in place.
But its a stretch but if CBS was to actual look at the investment of the FGC. Look at Cross Counter. 30 minute show. mike and ryan talk for 10, bring the fgc guest, which has a alot of personalities and events happening to keep rotating, thats another 10 minutes, then they play for 10 minutes of 3 random fgc games.
short and simple. we are taking the ads that twitch is offering. there should be a way that those streams have more commercials about amtrak and how to get to these events.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, that's not what I'm doing at all. I'm pretty much for the death of the "community" focused way of thought. My example wasn't meant to show you that Geek Trivia is growing a fighting game community. it was highlighting that the most successful "fighting game" event in my city is being done completely in absence of any community at all.
Fighting Games potential as a spectator event capable of earning serious coin absolutely DOES NOT need to be community based in order to be achieved.
call_kotaku
Member
Where is this coin coming from, though? What you're proposing will only work if Capcom decides to invest 10 million dollars into producing and promoting a league, or if someone presents fighting games exactly like a TV sports broadcast and try to get someone to give them 10 million dollars to produce and promote a league. Again, the "community" isn't what's keeping fighting games from the spotlight.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's already happened once, though. Circumstances were shitty (as the PA article pointed out) BUT - you can't deny that there's a definite problem w/ the image currently associated w/ people who try to play Fighting Games competitively. Outside investors can, and will, be a little reticent to pour money into such a situation, and that's even IF the scene wasn't audibly combative at even the THOUGHT of such a situation.
toddhunter
Member
Professor Beef
Banned
Why would you want Darkstalkers to be worse?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I love that they got him crosshanded in the game.
Professor Beef
Banned
Just about to mention that. :lol
panda made the thread if you missed it ... and we have a fraud
call_kotaku
Member
They're combative about it because they saw the last time esports "blew up", and then subsequently crashed spectacularly, or the various experiences they've had working with MLG. There's a bit of "we're too gangsta for this", but their resistance isn't uninformed. We've seen all this hype and hyperbole before and it'll probably end exactly same way, and ultimately it doesn't contribute anything to fighting games because nobody with any money has anything to gain from pushing this community into the spotlight, not because people are afraid of swear words or black people.
It's not whether or not the FGC has an "image problem", it's telling people they need to change because of unicorns and the pot of gold at the end of the esports rainbow. The FGC isn't different from esports because of some special abrasiveness, because the immaturity matchup against the MOBA communities is 0-10 free, it's because nobody cares enough or is dumb enough to burn money to make it "big".
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think we're closer to agreement than disagreement, honestly. I think you're probably giving large swaths of the scene as it stands a little too much credit for being as informed as you obviously are, and I think you've successfully argued that I'm putting a bit too much of a premium on appearances/attitudes.
But I don't see what good can come from arguing that it'll NEVER HAPPEN when it's obvious people are trying, and have the opportunity to make it happen. If my argument is fatalistic in any way, it's that it suggests that the money won't come because there's still a stigma attached preventing people from investing, and that there aren't enough people trying actively to counteract that stigma. But my argument STILL allows for the idea that there is a way forward, and the stigma can be counteracted, and that there's an audience that DOES exist that is completely disconnected from "The Community." Maybe my argument relies too heavily on the players' side getting their shit together. I can't even deny that.
BUT:
Your argument seems to boil down to "It's never gonna happen anyway, so why even bother bringing any of that shit up" and that seems needlessly fatalistic/reductive, to me, especially in the face of the fact a deal DID happen, and avenues were being pursued. IPL was a huge setback, but the fact it happened in the first place means it's not as dire as the counterargument you keep putting forth. A lot of the distrust of eSports doesn't come from getting burned by eSports, but by getting burned by people IN THE "COMMUNITY," and then extrapolating from there.
also: People don't really need to change JUST because there's more money in it for them, either. Arguing for making the experience of watching these tournaments a little less racist/homophobic/misogynist isn't just a money issue, or a potential earnings issue. It's a basic decency issue. You can be a little pottymouthed and a little rowdy without veering into THAT area.
Slamtastic
Member
Wrong on all accounts.
I have watched all MLG fighter events, and besides the promotion of non Capcom games, the presentation was my favorite part. I much more appreciate informative commentary over color commentary. If people want new players in the scene, explaining what is going on in the match instead of spouting insider community memes would help immensely. Downtime is a problem, admittedly (referring only to literal "We'll be right back" downtime, and not good segments like interviews and match replay/analysis).
Darkstalkers 4 canceled due to GGXrd announcement, because they have to learn to cel shade and keyframe their models and start over.
We can dream.
Stabby McSter
Member
we all about that yolo swag 420 misogyny homophobia hype dawg #getfucked
West Coast has their things together. Its some of the top players. Ill say only Yipes has a clean record for the tristate area.And also Seth Killian does WONDERFUL COMMENTARY. hes worth the wait every six months for the cali tourneys or evo. Him,Magus,and also whenever hes on,Fooblat. Also Zhi.
But once again. sometimes its simple enough to understand,or flashy enough to just watch.
SixMachine
Member
FGC community is not just one community. Different scenes have different attitudes because obviously they are made up of different people. Not only do people come from different areas but people also play different games and come with different mentalities. I haven't seen anyone from my area out right say homophobic slurs or totally degrade someone when they pop off. Even when people from other cities come over like Buffalo, they will talk shit about how we suck at the game one moment and the next moment you could be having a conversation what to grab to eat. People think FGC might go all hard because they see it on stream (even though there are more cases of it being the opposite) but it's not like that at all.
A huge difference between what you see from the big esports games and the community driven FGC is that when you watch a professional league match, the competitors are about a dozen teams with hundreds of spectators in the crowd. While in a FGC major, the people you see in the crowd are the competitors (yea I know some people might just be family or friends watching but you get the gist of what I'm saying that players watching are there to play), there is no team or organization to keep an eye on all the competitors. The players only have to answer for themselves. For every scumbag player who throws their sticks and intimidates another person, there are plenty more humble people who just love the game. You can't take the community out of the competition because we are the competition, not only do we just spectate but we strive for the top and aspire to win ourselves.
What you see on stream is all due to the streamers. They control what they want to stream, so if they want to show pop offs, they'll show pop offs. If they want someone to commentate, they'll let them commentate. If they are zooming in on asses and you don't like that, then your problem should be with the streamer for having that happen. A lot of streamers can be contacted one way or another, so let them hear your thoughts.
A huge difference between what you see from the big esports games and the community driven FGC is that when you watch a professional league match, the competitors are about a dozen teams with hundreds of spectators in the crowd. While in a FGC major, the people you see in the crowd are the competitors (yea I know some people might just be family or friends watching but you get the gist of what I'm saying that players watching are there to play), there is no team or organization to keep an eye on all the competitors. The players only have to answer for themselves. For every scumbag player who throws their sticks and intimidates another person, there are plenty more humble people who just love the game. You can't take the community out of the competition because we are the competition, not only do we just spectate but we strive for the top and aspire to win ourselves.
What you see on stream is all due to the streamers. They control what they want to stream, so if they want to show pop offs, they'll show pop offs. If they want someone to commentate, they'll let them commentate. If they are zooming in on asses and you don't like that, then your problem should be with the streamer for having that happen. A lot of streamers can be contacted one way or another, so let them hear your thoughts.
E-sports commentators: Hired professionals commentating
FGC commentators: Friends hanging out with you, commentating
FGC commentators are just feel more natural and fun, to the point it feels like you're hanging out at a bar with them. E-sports just feel so distant and robotic, they might as well be reading me an instruction manual or something. Ya some of the FGC guys can get a bit too out of line, and ya that shouldn't happen.. but a lot keep it in check while still keeping it feeling natural.
FGC commentators: Friends hanging out with you, commentating
FGC commentators are just feel more natural and fun, to the point it feels like you're hanging out at a bar with them. E-sports just feel so distant and robotic, they might as well be reading me an instruction manual or something. Ya some of the FGC guys can get a bit too out of line, and ya that shouldn't happen.. but a lot keep it in check while still keeping it feeling natural.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I'm sorry but there isn't any more money in it for them from doing this, this is all an issue about what you want to watch on streams. It's obscene to expect a massive audience to spring up out of nowhere just because the scene becomes more polite. If there was a chance to get big sponsorship deals and what not do you think the streamers/event organisers are too stupid to adopt the measures they'd need to? The second Sp00ky starts hearing from sponsors that there's problems he switches how the twitch chat, when he sees blatant pot splitting he'll be vocal about it through fear of decreased viewers and sponsors abandoning them (despite the fact he often refers to those responsible as friends). Don't you think he'd be willing to harsher controls on those who get on the mic if it meant the scene would grow and he's be able to make more money?
You're exactly the kind of person who Vic was referring to with his tweet earlier tonight. How long have you been involved in major fighting game events for? How much experience have you had working with big e-sports promotions in the past? Have you dedicated the last 5 years of your professional life to fighting game events? Does your lively-hood depend on the size and viewership of said events? It's ludicrous to think you know better than the people than the people that have been involved in the scene for years, ultimately all your arguments here simply come down to what you want to see on streams and nothing more.
I'm saying this as someone who hates racist/sexist/homophobic remarks, I just think you're being extremely condescending in thinking that you know better than those who dedicate their lives to this who genuinely want the best for everyone involved.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Yeah that's exactly what I thought when he referred to that tweet.
Yesss
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Supposedly a whole bunch of people are going tonight, including Fanatiq and Jan. And a photographer will be there to take profile pictures of all the players for future tournaments.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But I'm not arguing that people are afraid to pour money into streaming because announcers/commentators players CUSS. Saying "fuck" and "Shit" is obviously not a problem. I'm arguing that there's a negative reputation that isn't HELPING, and being as it's THE CHEAPEST ELEMENT TO FIX, arguing for fixing it can't possibly fucking hurt.
That's the general thrust - what exactly is being HURT by advocating for the excision of super-shitty elements on and off mic, in front of the camera and away from it? Especially when you have to specify that you hate racist/sexist/homophobic remarks. You shouldn't have to specify that. That's kind of what I'm getting at.
If you think I'm being condescending, I apologize. If you think you're being condescended to, that's my bad. But if the worst I'm being is condescending, than I don't think it's all that bad, considering.
Are you arguing that the potential here isn't an actual thing? That this thing couldn't grow? You think Spooky read my post on GAF and made a passive aggressive tweet about it? I doubt it, and if he did, I'd be curious as to how it could be percieved as getting in his way, especially when I've said multiple times that his efforts are one of the most positive things about this scene, and his leadership and knowhow is a huge bright spot amidst the kind of negative reputation that has you on GAF qualifying your argument with "I'm not a racist, but you're condescending."
Am I saying I know better than Spooky? Hell no. Hell, I'm not even saying I know more than Call Kotaku, and I've admitted as much to the man. But considering the conversation sparked off from the one-two punch of that PA article about fighting game viewership, and then the Twitch CEO saying what he said to Honzo, I don't know why my suggestions regarding the "community" aspect and the behavior of that "community" are so fuckin threatening.
toddhunter
Member
At the same time running a stream or tournaments for many years does not mean you have all the answers either. Often outside ideas or influence are what really helps something grow.
Passive Assassin
Member
Welp. This week's quota has been filled.
call_kotaku
Member
That's not the whole of my argument. It's never going to happen because of external monetary factors, not the state of the community. Any community can be dragged kicking and screaming into the spotlight, no esport game is successful right now on the merits of the pleasantness of its community, so "cleaning" up its act is pointless in the grand scheme of things.
There's also the notion that esports "has it figured out" when really it's in as perilous a state as anything else. Nobody's figured out a sustainable revenue model and a ton of venture capital is being gathered on the basis of growth projections it'll probably never meet. Take your meetup for example: if you started advertising energy drink brand A between matches, how many sales would that lead to? (number of views is misleading) If you started charging for them to watch, how many people would pay? The assumption is that just because someone wants to watch it for free means that there's revenue to be made, when Twitch already has difficulty finding enough advertisers as is and nobody is relying on ad revenue as a significant income source.
The collapse of IPL didn't "burn" anyone in the FGC (except Mike Ross) because it just illustrated the problem with the business model. IPL was losing ridiculous amounts of money for very suspect gains, and their new managing company didn't see the value of flushing millions down the drain so you can run a massive gaming tournament in Vegas. The whole system relies on convincing people that they're losing money to build...something, and the whole thing collapses as soon as people with money stop believing.
You're talking about improving the people in the community, though, not the presentation of streams. "Not in front of mommy and daddy" doesn't address the issue, even if mommy and daddy invested a million dollars in satellite trucks and tricasters. Esports has nothing to do with what you're talking about. It took EG 2 years to drop Idra, and he wasn't even good, and LoL boobcpm isn't exactly trailblazing for mature behavior either.
That's the problem with esports commentary, though, because it's all about play-by-play this or color commentator that or analytic commentary whatever, and it never really thinks about why people would want to hear dudes talk over a game. Fake hype and fake enthusiasm is everywhere in esports and FGC streams, but atleast the FGC is sometimes aware that gamers aren't TV sports watchers and would rather people just be themselves. MLG is probably the most flagrant example of this with their "back to the desk" commentator cubicles 2 miles away from the crowd, though they've fortunately been doing away with that now. It's why Tastosis is so good on GSL and are probably the only good commentators in esports, because it's just two friends shooting the shit and watching fun games. Hell, Tasteless obviously doesn't even play the game that often and Artosis is the one providing any insight, but it works. It's just frustrating watching Day9 or Husky try to describe a Starcraft game like a horserace or all the FGC stream vultures trying to recreate the BIONIC AAARRRRRRMMMM moment or be the next Yipes.
MLG streams have a ton of downtime because they're putting together a "broadcast", not merely showing an event. Spooky and level|up are atleast aware that we'd be much more interested in feeling like we were at the tournament, and it's pretty silly that MLG can't entertain me with 100x the budget, because I'm just watching butt rock for half an hour between matches in an empty auditorium with dudes that look like they don't really care about being there.
toddhunter
Member
What do you think of the Dota 2 International? Based on current figures and if I'm not mistaken, Valve has made about 1.5 million from selling the related item alone, whilst throwing an additional 0.5 million into the prize pool.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think you're making great points man. Again - I'm not trying to reduce your argument, only going after the parts I think can be gone after. If I'm not addressing every specific aspect of it, I think it's because you've made a really good case.
But again - it's the cheapest aspect. I'm not SOLELY arguing that the "cleaning up" happen so they look spit-shined on the first day of school when teacher comes with sponsor checks. I'm just arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing, and it can't fuckin HURT. Also, it's hard to argue there isn't a stigma. There is. Are there instances with DOTA, or LOL, or Starcraft where players/viewers have done some foul shit? Of course there are - I wouldn't argue otherwise. But they don't get the shorthand/stereotype that fighting games do. Is that fair? Probably not. But I feel like you kinda forfeit the right to complain about that unfairness when you actively argue against attempts to change that stigma.
It's sponsored by Things From Another World, a comics retailer, and a couple other businesses locally, including an arcade. I haven't asked how many sales the event has directly led to, but the sponsors seem happy with the value the event has so far as getting people inside their stores and shopping online, especially since a lot of the people who come to the event aren't necessarily people who shop at comics retailers. There's some overlap, of course (It's a trivia night) but the exposure to new potential customers leads to enough new customers at the stores (and the arcade, etc) that continuing to kick down prizes and advertisements is advantageous.
But again - it's the cheapest aspect. I'm not SOLELY arguing that the "cleaning up" happen so they look spit-shined on the first day of school when teacher comes with sponsor checks. I'm just arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing, and it can't fuckin HURT. Also, it's hard to argue there isn't a stigma. There is. Are there instances with DOTA, or LOL, or Starcraft where players/viewers have done some foul shit? Of course there are - I wouldn't argue otherwise. But they don't get the shorthand/stereotype that fighting games do. Is that fair? Probably not. But I feel like you kinda forfeit the right to complain about that unfairness when you actively argue against attempts to change that stigma.
It's sponsored by Things From Another World, a comics retailer, and a couple other businesses locally, including an arcade. I haven't asked how many sales the event has directly led to, but the sponsors seem happy with the value the event has so far as getting people inside their stores and shopping online, especially since a lot of the people who come to the event aren't necessarily people who shop at comics retailers. There's some overlap, of course (It's a trivia night) but the exposure to new potential customers leads to enough new customers at the stores (and the arcade, etc) that continuing to kick down prizes and advertisements is advantageous.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Agreed 100%.
Fatboy never passes up on an opportunity to belittle the community he doesn't like by calling it "not a community," either. I roll my eyes every time I see it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yo, just because Sarus barfed on your laptop doesn't make it a community
edit: and I pass up PLENTY of opportunities!
I agree with call_kotaku. I played LoL pretty intensively for about 6 months, and at point I was like, 'I should be watching tournaments like I do with marvel so I can improve and enjoy high level play!' Every LoL tourney I watched had the most dry commentary you can imagine- it was like watching fucking golf. Esports is a step down, not a step up.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
You embellish. It turned out that he actually wasn't a "bitch" after all, just like he said.Yo, just because Sarus barfed on your laptop doesn't make it a community
edit: and I pass up PLENTY of opportunities!
You have a lot of solid insight in general, which is why it's frustrating when you're also so consistently condescending. Most of the friends and connections I've made since I moved to the south have been specifically through fighting game events, and the more I work on the production side of things at the local/regional scale the more I appreciate the lengths to which individuals contribute in all sorts of ways. That you always dismiss that because of (legitimate) image issues (that I agree with you on) is just insulting on some level.