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[mnannola]

I love alternate history shows / movies if they are done well, so I have no problem with this.

I can't say I have ever really wondered though what would have happened if the south stayed around though. Seemed like they were doomed to fail one way or another, even if they somehow survived the Civil War.

 

[Sunster]

Spoiler

What? Are we just ignoring that Arnold was black?

Westworld is not about a real event or even chattel slavery.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I look forward to the plot line of poor Southerners who oppose slavery not because it's wrong but because slaves are stealing their jobs...

Also over under on them making MLK Jr a famous slave who had a dream of being a free man?

 

[Arkage]

Ehhh

Spoiler

Technically a couple of white male humans help the robots get autonomy in order to give them freedom.

Spoiler

The two white & asian human males who help Maeve's character do so because she coerces them with her intelligence.

And while I understand the concerns about the "white savior" meme, it's gotten to the point where any time a white person is helping a minority it gets torn to bits, contextualized completely within this meme and the power dynamics of American racism. I don't want the "white savior" meme get replaced with a "only minorities are allowed to help/assist/rescue minorities otherwise it's racist" meme. There needs to be a functional balance.

 

[Budi]

lol the old irish slavery myth. created solely to tell black people to shut up.

Yup and they still keep going with it.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I just personally don't trust this story in the hands of the people running Game of Thrones. First there's the Daenerys nonsense, making her out to seem like this white savior goddess queen saving the poor PoC.

Or, even worse, these are the people who changed the plot of another character so that she's regularly violently raped before she becomes a stronger character. GRRM seemed to think all the horrific shit she had witnessed in her life was enough of a basis for her to begin growing, but David and Dan evidently thought they needed to add "violent rapes" onto the list first.

 

[DonShula]

You know, this discussion is really making someone would make a film adaptation of Malorie Blackman's Noughts and Crosses book series, which is set in an alternate world where Africa become the world's dominant power, leading them to African people taking European people as slaves...leading to a 21st Century world where segregation continues to exist between blacks and whites, with whites being the ones often relegated to socially inferior positions within that specific society.

I feel a faithful adaption of that series could be a much more interesting alternate history story to watch play out on screen, and far less problematic than what HBO is trying to do here.

I would love to see this as a series. The only anger would come from the far right (which would be slightly enjoyable) and it would probably do a lot more good than whatever HBO ends up doing here (again, I'll give it a chance).

 

[Sunster]

I just personally don't trust this story in the hands of the people running Game of Thrones. First there's the Daenerys nonsense, making her out to seem like this white savior goddess queen saving the poor PoC.

Or, even worse, these are the people who changed the plot of another character so that she's regularly violently raped before she becomes a stronger character. GRRM seemed to think all the horrific shit she had witnessed in her life was enough of a basis for her to begin growing, but David and Dan evidently thought they needed to add "violent rapes" first.

well in the book she was raped by drogo too and she was only 14.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

well in the book she was raped by drogo too and she was only 14.

I'm talking about

Spoiler

Sansa

.

edit: I'll spoiler too, sorry.

 

[DonShula]

well in the book she was raped by drogo too and she was only 14.

I think the character referenced there is actually

Spoiler

Sansa

.

 

[bobbychalkers]

You mean prison?

This....

Forgive me for not having blind faith in a writer who's only credits are Empire and Soprano's the video game

Welp, this show is fucked

 

[excelsiorlef]

Spoiler

The two white & asian human males who help Maeve's character do so because she coerces them with her intelligence.

And while I understand the concerns about the "white savior" meme, it's gotten to the point where any time a white person is helping a minority it gets torn to bits, contextualized completely within this meme and the power dynamics of American racism. I don't want the "white savior" meme get replaced with a "only minorities are allowed to help/assist/rescue minorities otherwise it's racist" meme. There needs to be a functional balance.

In GoT there is no balance

 

[Enzom21]

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/hbo-casey-bloys-1202507718/

Asked whether it was appropriate to have white actor Peter Dinklage play “Fantasy Island” star Hervé Villechaize in the upcoming film “My Dinner With Hervé,” Bloys said that HBO doesn’t know whether Villechaize is Filipino, as is widely believed. “His brother says they’re not,” Bloys said. Regardless, he added, “the benefit of humanizing someone” who experienced what Villechaize, a little person, experienced, outweighs other concerns.

Yeah, I'm listening to a damn thing this dude has to say about this horrible idea being "nuanced".

 

[Syrus]

In GoT there is no balance

The white savior has a midget , a woman , a non white ex slave lady , non white now ex slave guy and an old woman, a non white dude with no junk counseling her.

Just saying lol.

The damn lifting her up scene was a bit much but people need to give the show some slack.


Not to mention most women other then Sansa in the show are badass.

 

[Geist-]

I just personally don't trust this story in the hands of the people running Game of Thrones. First there's the Daenerys nonsense, making her out to seem like this white savior goddess queen saving the poor PoC.

Or, even worse, these are the people who changed the plot of another character so that she's regularly violently raped before she becomes a stronger character. GRRM seemed to think all the horrific shit she had witnessed in her life was enough of a basis for her to begin growing, but David and Dan evidently thought they needed to add "violent rapes" onto the list first.

Thanks for reminding me. D&D should stay far the fuck away from any controversial or sensitive material, they have no idea how to handle it respectfully.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Generally, white america gets off on black misery so that explains the excitement for this show

You shouldn't have to explain why black people aren't excited about an HBO show where we're still enslaved in the present but these fucks are all excited for it!

 

[Syrus]

Generally, white america gets off on black misery so that explains the excitement for this show

You shouldn't have to explain why black people aren't excited about an HBO show where we're still enslaved in the present but these fucks are all excited for it!

I like watching the black actors kick asa and get back at the white people though.

I loved the generalization you did though. Didnt realise a majority of white people hate black people and love seeing them tortured.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

I like watching the black actors kick asa and get back at the white people though.

I loved the generalization you did though. Didnt realise a majority of white people hate black people and love seeing them tortured.

You're shitting me right?

 

[weepingangelz]

The south had 0 major industry. They had no natural metals of any abundance, no real ability to mine or refine steel, no major metropolitan areas compared to the north, no real cohesion of government, etc etc.

Alternative history is only interesting if it's at least semi plausible, nothing about the Confederacy being a stable, economic and political entity 150 years and a series of wars later is plausible. So if this has ANY chance of being good, they'd better have fucking nailed that background information.

But I won't see it regardless, I have 0 interest in propagating more slave shit.

The timeline could have diverged way earlier than the Civil War so that the South was better equipped to begin with?

 

[Syrus]

You're shitting me right?

Generally, white america gets off on black misery so that explains the excitement for this show

You shouldn't have to explain why black people aren't excited about an HBO show where we're still enslaved in the present but these fucks are all excited for it!

Youre the one who claims white america , fucks , are excited for more black misery.

And i simply disagree with your statement. I think this show has a huge chance of bombing but they need to get a trailer up if they feel their show isnt racist.

 

[HStallion]

I like watching the black actors kick asa and get back at the white people though.

I loved the generalization you did though. Didnt realise a majority of white people hate black people and love seeing them tortured.

Could have fooled me from the way a large swath of this country reacted to Black Lives Matter.

 

[Syrus]

Could have fooled me from the way a large swath of this country reacted to Black Lives Matter.

A vocal minority doesnt represent the country.

The issue with USA is we dont vote , the majority are silent etc. Isnt it like less then 20% of our country votes on president and much less vote when its not a presidential race.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't get why people are whining.If you're not interested,then don't watch it.It's not that hard.

MY DUDE JESUS CHRIST MAN!!!!!!!!!!! This stuff is super personal to some of us. Especially us black people. Funny you call it whining though.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

A vocal minority doesnt represent the country.

The issue with USA is we dont vote , the majority are silent etc. Isnt it like less then 20% of our country votes on president and much less vote when its not a presidential race.

The country represents the country. The country that profits on black misery, celebrates extrajudicial killings and uses mass media to reinforce negative stereotypes for anyone that isn't white.

You have to be blind to not see this shit.

 

[Whompa02]

Could have fooled me from the way a large swath of this country reacted to Black Lives Matter.

It's a vocal minority.

 

[btags]

I am sure this is not the most nuanced way to approach this, and the the two properties I am talking about will likely be wildly different, but for people who are skeptical about this show, how did you feel about Wolfenstein: The New Order and the upcoming sequel? Do those games cross a similar line, and why or why not?

 

[Syrus]

The country represents the country. The country that profits on black misery, celebrates extrajudicial killings and uses mass media to reinforce negative stereotypes for anyone that isn't white.

You have to be blind to not see this shit.

The media CONTROLS the narrative of the country since its what people hear and see but im sorry I wholeheartedly disagree that MOST WHITE people get off on black misery.

Yes their is a chunk of total pieces of shit in this country and yes somehow these people get elected but thats a problem of our election system and lack of voting.

I do not get off on black suffering , my wife does not, my parents do not , my friends do not.


My problem was your lumping of the majority of whites. I disagree.

But I agree our media needs to change , our poliyical system needs to change, our policing needs to change.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

It's a vocal minority.

You know, when you have state congressmen pushing the white genocide thing & publicly admitting he's worried about people of color over taking whites in the US population, trying to downplay hundreds of years of race based marginalization as a "vocal minority", is disingenuous

 

[excelsiorlef]

The white savior has a midget , a woman , a non white ex slave lady , non white now ex slave guy and an old woman, a non white dude with no junk counseling her.

Just saying lol.

The damn lifting her up scene was a bit much but people need to give the show some slack.


Not to mention most women other then Sansa in the show are badass.

Sansa was raped for character development.

You're stretching with your defense of Dany severely to create balance where none exists

 

[Principate]

It's a vocal minority.

Same vocal minority voted for Trump (read ten's of millions).

 

[Syrus]

I am sure this is not the most nuanced way to approach this, and the the two properties I am talking about will likely be wildly different, but for people who are skeptical about this show, how did you feel about Wolfenstein: The New Order and the upcoming sequel? Do those games cross a similar line, and why or why not?

Everyone loves slaughtering nazis. Its good.

The games also do not show blacks in a negative light or suffering. The issue with this show is black people are tired of only being casted in slave or slave like roles and not having lead roles.

They want less type casting and simply wany better and different black representation.

I want Idris Elba as James Bond damnit. Edit


Trump got like 25% if voting age votes. Thats a minority.

Almost half the voters in the country did not vote. I blame them more.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I want Idris Alba as James Bond damnit.

Elba.

 

[mckmas8808]

I wish black actors refused to even film this shuck n jive bullshit.

The fuck they gonna show? A black woman breastfeeding a white baby while on an iPhone? Yea I don't see how this shit works for me.

You know......they may actually do just THIS!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Sansa was raped for character development.

You're stretching with your defense of Dany severely to create balance where none exists

Dany is the most minority of minorities in the whole of game of thrones. There are more children of the forest than there are Valyrians.

 

[mckmas8808]

The timeline could have diverged way earlier than the Civil War so that the South was better equipped to begin with?

The problem with this thought too is that if "society" has progress, than why we still got modern day slavery? The Confederacy and the United States could never survive side by side for 400 years. Especially not after 3 wars.

The premise of this show would have to explain how and why America was supposed to be the home of the brave and have all these close connections to European countries, yet couldn't beat the South after 3 whole stinky wars.

 

[Seesaw15]

Spoiler

The two white & asian human males who help Maeve's character do so because she coerces them with her intelligence.

And while I understand the concerns about the "white savior" meme, it's gotten to the point where any time a white person is helping a minority it gets torn to bits, contextualized completely within this meme and the power dynamics of American racism. I don't want the "white savior" meme get replaced with a "only minorities are allowed to help/assist/rescue minorities otherwise it's racist" meme. There needs to be a functional balance.

Spoiler

I was replying to the poster who used Westworld as an example of a slavery show were the slaves freed themselves. I said that was wrong because in the end Humans (oppressors) helped to free the Robots(Oppressed). Race had nothing to do with that example I just thought it was funny that the two people that put the revolution in motion just happened to be two white dudes(Anthony Hopkins and Ed Harris)

Spoiler

What? Are we just ignoring that Arnold was black?

Spoiler

Not a race thing because the human's still helped to free the enslaved android see response above. Plus in the end Ford finishes what Arnold couldn't

 

[Devil]

Because we don't have Daughters of the Third Reich in America but we certainly have Daughters of the Confederacy. They aren't flying Nazi flags outside of several court houses or have giant monuments up to the third Reich in America, they certainly do for confederate flags, symbols and "heroes". If you can't see why something like this touches a lot of raw nerves and hits far closer to home I'm not sure what else to say.

Yeah, and we (German) here have had Nazis and still have Neo Nazis worshipping the third reich. Nazis, often just put in one pot as Germans, have been the villains in media for decades, sometimes serious, sometimes even over the top (Wolfenstein etc). I can tell you out of experience: It can work. The show I talked about has a German localization, so does Inglorious Bastards etc. They never needed to apologize and we actually fought for it that that horrible time of our history can be depicted in any sort of media. We still have censorship on it in Games though, but that's another topic.

I already said being wary is perfectly fine. I still don't get what they aplogized for and you didn't gave me an an argument either, except that it is a topic which should be dealt with carefully (duh). It's a heavy topic but is has been touched many times before by film makers, authors and more. Just wait and see before shouting at them, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Kin5290]

The timeline could have diverged way earlier than the Civil War so that the South was better equipped to begin with?

That would require the South not having an economy suited for slavery.

 

[Sunster]

Yeah, and we (German) here have had Nazis and still have Neo Nazis worshipping the third reich. Nazis, often just put in one pot as Germans, have been the villains in media for decades, sometimes serious, sometimes even over the top (Wolfenstein etc). I can tell you out of experience: It can work. The show I talked about has a German localization, so does Inglorious Bastards etc. They never needed to apologize and we actually fought for it that that horrible time of our history can be depicted in any sort of media. We still have censorship on it in Games though, but that's another topic.

I already said being wary is perfectly fine. I still don't get what they aplogized for and you didn't gave me an an argument either, except that it is a topic which should be dealt with carefully (duh). It's a heavy topic but is has been touched many times before by film makers, authors and more. Just wait and see before shouting at them, that's all I'm saying.

Your country has bent over backwards to atone for that though. America has done very little to atone for slavery. We didn't even apologize for it until 2008. Black people are still persecuted here and are underrepresented in the media. So it's probably tiring for them to see yet another slave narrative. Especially one created by 2 white guys.

 

[HStallion]

Yeah, and we (German) here have had Nazis and still have Neo Nazis worshipping the third reich. Nazis, often just put in one pot as Germans, have been the villains in media for decades, sometimes serious, sometimes even over the top (Wolfenstein etc). I can tell you out of experience: It can work. The show I talked about has a German localization, so does Inglorious Bastards etc. They never needed to apologize and we actually fought for it that that horrible time of our history can be depicted in any sort of media. We still have censorship on it in Games though, but that's another topic.

I already said being wary is perfectly fine. I still don't get what they aplogized for and you didn't gave me an an argument either, except that it is a topic which should be dealt with carefully (duh). It's a heavy topic but is has been touched many times before by film makers, authors and more. Just wait and see before shouting at them, that's all I'm saying.

Then you don't understand. Your country fully acknowledged the horror of your past in general. Just because you've got Neo Nazis doesn't mean much. There haven't been statues to Hitler and Goebbels standing in front of town halls and court houses across Germany for decades and decades. You don't people fighting tooth and nail to keep those disgusting monuments to the horrors of the past up and out for everyone to see. People still act like the Confederates weren't only not wrong, but that they were wronged by everyone else and that they should be praised and treated like heroes. I'm sorry but you totally don't get the point I was making. I mean for Christ sake we had fucking people pushing history books that made it sound like Africans came to the country willing and enjoyed being slaves.

 

[Sunster]

Then you don't understand. Your country fully acknowledged the horror of your past in general. Just because you've got Neo Nazis doesn't mean much. There haven't been statues to Hitler and Goebbels standing in front of town halls and court houses across Germany for decades and decades. You don't people fighting tooth and nail to keep those disgusting monuments to the horrors of the past up and out for everyone to see. People still act like the Confederates weren't only not wrong, but that they were wronged by everyone else and that they should be praised and treated like heroes. I'm sorry but you totally don't get the point I was making. I mean for Christ sake we had fucking people pushing history books that made it sound like Africans came to the country willing and enjoyed being slaves.

they have shrines to confederate generals in the south. not monuments. they are literally called shrines on government placed highway signs.

 

[HStallion]

they have shrines to confederate generals in the south. not monuments. they are literally called shrines on government placed highway signs.

Its the same fucking thing.

 

[Zyae]

The problem was not that it was a press release. The problem is the actual show. And no, showing slavery in a nuanced way is not a fix for that.

If they want to make the show, that is their call, but expect a lot of criticism before and probably after it has aired.

Why is this a problem? Its fiction and its an interesting topic. Its not like the show is going to shine slavery in a positive light

 

[excelsiorlef]

Dany is the most minority of minorities in the whole of game of thrones. There are more children of the forest than there are Valyrians.

...

This is an even worst stretch.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

tbh if it's from Game of Thrones creators, I think it's better people let them do their thing before they judge.

 

[Mesoian]

Why couldn't we get a show where the slaves free them selves.

To be fair that could be what this is.

But I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

[HStallion]

tbh if it's from Game of Thrones creators, I think it's better people let them do their thing before they judge.

That's what people are worried about

 

[Sunster]

Its the same fucking thing.

i wasn't disagreeing with you i was adding that they have shrines. the word shrine is grosser than monument when it's a confederate general. even if it was a real hero shrine is kinda weird (because it implies worship or prayer) as opposed to monument.

 

[HStallion]

i wasn't disagreeing with you i was adding that they have shrines. the word shrine is grosser than monument when it's a confederate general. even if it was a real hero shrine is kinda weird as opposed to monument.

My bad. It's hard to tell who is playing the semantics game these days

 

[excelsiorlef]

tbh if it's from Game of Thrones creators, I think it's better people let them do their thing before they judge.

Why...

If anything being the GoT guys gives them less credibility on my eyes