Support NeoGAF

[unpopularblargh]

Via The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/):

HBO’s prospective series Confederate will offer an alternative history of post-Civil War America. It will ask the question, according to co-creator David Benioff, “What would the world have looked like … if the South had won?” A swirl of virtual protests and op-eds have greeted this proposed premise. In response, HBO has expressed “great respect” for its critics but also said it hopes that they will “reserve judgment until there is something to see.”

This request sounds sensible at first pass. Should one not “reserve judgment” of a thing until after it has been seen? But HBO does not actually want the public to reserve judgment so much as it wants the public to make a positive judgment. A major entertainment company does not announce a big new show in hopes of garnering dispassionate nods of acknowledgement. HBO executives themselves judged Confederate before they’d seen it—they had to, as no television script actually exists. HBO hoped to communicate that approval to its audience through the announcement. And had that communication been successful, had Confederate been greeted with rapturous anticipation, it is hard to imagine the network asking its audience to tamp down and wait.

HBO’s motives aside, the plea to wait supposes that a problem of conception can be fixed in execution. We do not need to wait to observe that this supposition is, at best, dicey. For over a century, Hollywood has churned out well-executed, slickly produced epics which advanced the Lost Cause myth of the Civil War. These are true “alternative histories,” built on “alternative facts,” assembled to depict the Confederacy as a wonderland of virtuous damsels and gallant knights, instead of the sprawling kleptocratic police state it actually was. From last century’s The Birth of a Nation to this century’s Gods and Generals, Hollywood has likely done more than any other American institution to obstruct a truthful apprehension of the Civil War, and thus modern America’s very origins. So one need not wait to observe that any foray by HBO into the Civil War must be met with a spirit of pointed inquiry and a withholding of all benefit of the doubt.

Knowing this, we do not have to wait to point out that comparisons between Confederate and The Man in the High Castle are fatuous. Nazi Germany was also defeated. But while its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world, not one author of the Confederacy was convicted of treason. Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg. Confederate General John B. Gordon became a senator. Germany has spent the decades since World War II in national penance for Nazi crimes. America spent the decades after the Civil War transforming Confederate crimes into virtues. It is illegal to fly the Nazi flag in Germany. The Confederate flag is enmeshed in the state flag of Mississippi.

And one need not wait to ask if Benioff and D.B. Weiss are, at any rate, the candidates to help lead us out of that morass or deepen it. A body of work exists in the form of their hit show Game of Thrones. We do not have to wait to note the persistent criticism of that show is its depiction of rape. Rape—generational rape, mass rape—is central to the story of enslavement. For 250 years the bodies of enslaved black women were regarded as property, to be put to whatever use—carnal and otherwise—that their enslavers saw fit. Why HBO believes that this duo, given their past work, is the best team to revisit that experience is a question one should not wait to ask.

Much more at the link above so I would highly encourage everyone to read the whole thing before commenting. Also to the mods, please lock if old. Also sorry for the haphazard op, on mobile atm.

 

[Slayven]

Read it earlier, so much truth

 

[Bronx-Man]

Knowing this, we do not have to wait to point out that comparisons between Confederate and The Man in the High Castle are fatuous. Nazi Germany was also defeated. But while its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world, not one author of the Confederacy was convicted of treason. Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg. Confederate General John B. Gordon became a senator. Germany has spent the decades since World War II in national penance for Nazi crimes. America spent the decades after the Civil War transforming Confederate crimes into virtues. It is illegal to fly the Nazi flag in Germany. The Confederate flag is enmeshed in the state flag of Mississippi.

The official answer for when someone comes in saying "Why are you mad about this but not The Man in the High Castle????"

 

[unpopularblargh]

The official answer for when someone comes in saying "Why are you mad about this but not The Man in the High Castle????"

Just added this to the OP also.

 

[zero_suit]

The official answer for when someone comes in saying "Why are you mad about this but not The Man in the High Castle????"

He's so good.

 

[Valhelm]

The official answer for when someone comes in saying "Why are you mad about this but not The Man in the High Castle????"

Hell yeah, this is great

 

[BocoDragon]

Is the story idea itself inherently offensive? Would it be offensive if it were a novel?

Or is it mainly offensive because it's being put out as mainstream American entertainment from a corporate entity?

 

[akira28]

yes

 

[StrawberryJam]

Had not kept myself clued up on the whole story, but Coates is a man I have a huge amount of respect for so I figure this is a good a place as any to catch up on it. Thanks for posting this OP.

 

[Geist-]

It is illegal to fly the Nazi flag in Germany. The Confederate flag is enmeshed in the state flag of Mississippi.

I wish people would get this. In many ways, the South was worse than Nazi Germany, so when I see people try to play up the Confederate flag as some kind of proud portrayal of past heritage, all I see are people that are proud of being worse than Nazis.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Is the story idea itself inherently offensive? Would it be offensive if it were a novel?

Or is it mainly offensive because it's being put out as mainstream American entertainment from a corporate entity?

Yes, less so but still yes, and no, but being helmed by D&D aka the "we need a new shocking scene? I know! Let's add a rape!" guys does NOT help matters.

 

[Skilletor]

I love this man.

 

[Geist-]

Is the story idea itself inherently offensive? Would it be offensive if it were a novel?

Or is it mainly offensive because it's being put out as mainstream American entertainment from a corporate entity?

It's less about the subject matter and more about the people doing it.

 

[Lightning_Roller]

Every word he wrote was pure truth. Good article.

 

[Angelus Errare]

He nailed the one thing I've been saying, HBO announced it with no real information because they assumed the reception would be overwhelming positive. Game of Thrones guys? Why wouldn't ppl be excited?! When you expect overwhelming positive response you don't need PR for backlash

 

[BocoDragon]

Yes, less so but still yes, and no, but being helmed by D&D aka the "we need a new shocking scene? I know! Let's add a rape!" guys does NOT help matters.

It's less about the subject matter and more about the people doing it.

I'm just now watching GoT for the first time... so I get it.

 

[norm9]

How far in production are they? If it's pre-, there's still time to stop the show. But they and HBO seem like the dig in their heels type.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

The official answer for when someone comes in saying "Why are you mad about this but not The Man in the High Castle????"

Should also add in the frequency of minority heavy school districts having Confederate generals and idols have their names on buildings and monuments in the community.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again, I'd much rather prefer an adaptation of Malorie Blackman's Noughts and Crosses series than what we'll be getting here.

 

[Slayven]

He nailed the one thing I've been saying, HBO announced it with no real information because they assumed the reception would be overwhelming positive. Game of Thrones guys? Why wouldn't ppl be excited?! When you expect overwhelming positive response you don't need PR for backlash

I mean the writer of Empire and the ps2 Soprano's video game should have been enough

 

[MC Safety]

Coates didn't read or see Gods and Generals if he thinks it's alternative fiction. It's not.

Gods and Generals was written by Jeff Shaara as part of a trilogy about the Civil War. It's historical fiction, to be sure, but both Jeff and his father, Mike (who wrote the Pulitzer-winning Killer Angels), both used a ton of original sources for their writing.

The three books in the series are tremendous reads, well written and smart. There's nothing in them that glorifies the South or speaks to some Southern ideal.

Perhaps Coates included Generals in his essay because neither do the books demonize the South. If that's the case, then, he should have also included Gettysburg as well, which was the film translation for Killer Angels.

 

[kcp12304]

I'm not much of a reader but aren't there tons of these kinds of alt-history what ifs? How do these books handle slavery/race?

 

[unpopularblargh]

Coates didn't read or see Gods and Generals if he thinks it's alternative fiction. It's not.

Gods and Generals was written by Jeff Shaara as part of a trilogy about the Civil War. It's historical fiction, to be sure, but both Jeff and his father, Mike (who wrote the Pulitzer-winning Killer Angels), both used a ton of original sources for their writing.

The three books in the series are tremendous reads, well written and smart. There's nothing in them that glorifies the South or speaks to some Southern ideal.

Perhaps Coates included Generals in his essay because neither do the books demonize the South. If that's the case, then, he should have also included Gettysburg as well, which was the film translation for Killer Angels.

He's not saying they're literal alternative fiction but that they try their hardest to whitewash the awfulness of the Confederacy and portray them as heroes on their last stand.

 

[Claude Augario]

Confederate is the kind of provocative thought experiment that can be engaged in when someone else’s lived reality really is fantasy to you, when your grandmother is not in danger of losing her vote, when the terrorist attack on Charleston evokes honest sympathy, but inspires no direct fear. And so we need not wait to note that Confederate’s interest in Civil War history is biased, that it is premised on a simplistic view of white Southern defeat, instead of the more complicated morass we have all around us.

This is a much more eloquent and striking way of expressing what I was trying to say in that last thread.

 

[akira28]

any book that covers the civil war without "demonizing the south" counts as alt-history to me.

 

[LionPride]

How far in production are they? If it's pre-, there's still time to stop the show. But they and HBO seem like the dig in their heels type.

Why stop the show? If when it comes out people don't like it, they'll know and it won't be around

 

[DonShula]

This piece is basically a well-written summary of the arguments against the show in the two large GAF threads we've had on it to this point.

Which is to say I expect this thread to turn out like both of those, given that no new ideas were introduced. It comes down to whether the show should be cut off at the knees first, or whether it should be allowed to live and offend before it's executed.

 

[norm9]

Why stop the show? If when it comes out people don't like it, they'll know and it won't be around

Among other things, I'm not looking forward to the very long think pieces that will be written defending the show. The tv panels with 6 talking heads, the news reports, etc.

 

[Enduin]

Coates didn't read or see Gods and Generals if he thinks it's alternative fiction. It's not.

Gods and Generals was written by Jeff Shaara as part of a trilogy about the Civil War. It's historical fiction, to be sure, but both Jeff and his father, Mike (who wrote the Pulitzer-winning Killer Angels), both used a ton of original sources for their writing.

The three books in the series are tremendous reads, well written and smart. There's nothing in them that glorifies the South or speaks to some Southern ideal.

Perhaps Coates included Generals in his essay because neither do the books demonize the South. If that's the case, then, he should have also included Gettysburg as well, which was the film translation for Killer Angels.

The book might be good but the film, which is what Coates is referencing, is pure fucking trash and total revisionist propaganda. Even the author hates it. It spends 3+ hours trying to get viewers to care about and sympathize with Lee and Jackson and paints slaves as happy and doting to these old white bastards who aren't fighting for slavery but states rights. It's gross and disturbing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_and_Generals_(film)#Critical_and_historical_response

 

[MC Safety]

He's not saying they're literal alternative fiction but that they try their hardest to whitewash the awfulness of the Confederacy and portray them as heroes on their last stand.

The direct quote is: "For over a century, Hollywood has churned out well-executed, slickly produced epics which advanced the Lost Cause myth of the Civil War. These are true “alternative histories,” built on “alternative facts,” assembled to depict the Confederacy as a wonderland of virtuous damsels and gallant knights, instead of the sprawling kleptocratic police state it actually was. From last century’s The Birth of a Nation to this century’s Gods and Generals, Hollywood has likely done more than any other American institution to obstruct a truthful apprehension of the Civil War, and thus modern America’s very origins."

No matter how you interpret the quote, Gods and Generals is a poor choice for an example here.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Coates didn't read or see Gods and Generals if he thinks it's alternative fiction. It's not.

Gods and Generals was written by Jeff Shaara as part of a trilogy about the Civil War. It's historical fiction, to be sure, but both Jeff and his father, Mike (who wrote the Pulitzer-winning Killer Angels), both used a ton of original sources for their writing.

The three books in the series are tremendous reads, well written and smart. There's nothing in them that glorifies the South or speaks to some Southern ideal.

Perhaps Coates included Generals in his essay because neither do the books demonize the South. If that's the case, then, he should have also included Gettysburg as well, which was the film translation for Killer Angels.

He's referring to "The Lost Cause" myth of the south which that movie has been criticized of perpetuating by various thinkers and film critics.

Edit: others posted this.

 

[El Topo]

An interesting article, but his reasoning regarding The Man in the High Castle is too simplistic and thus problematic, given the history of denazification (in Germany and Austria). His omission of Japan is also very unfortunate.

 

[StoOgE]

I was actually kind of ok with the premise of the show and willing to wait and see, but this article makes points that tilted me strongly towards thinking it was a bad idea and making me acknowledge a lot of my own Southern white guy bias that went into giving it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BocoDragon]

An interesting article, but his reasoning regarding The Man in the High Castle is too simplistic and thus problematic, given the history of denazification (in Germany and Austria). His omission of Japan is also very unfortunate.

Do you mean how it was imposed by outsider Allies? Or that it was incomplete?

 

[BruceCLea]

He hits it out of the park with this one. The South didn't really "lose" the war in the sense that the show's premise would ascribe.

I'm white and I've lived in the South for most of my life. I have to deal with fucking rednecks with their confederate flag bullshit on a daily basis. And that's nothing compared to what black people suffer. This show would seem to aggrandize the ideology of the Confederacy. It already is aggrandized plenty down here and it's something progressives have been trying to wash away.

I hate the idea of this show and quite frankly aghast at the fact that it's even being considered.

These two men are from Chicago and New York City. I don't know. The premise makes me fucking sick to my stomach.

 

[Angelus Errare]

any book that covers the civil war without "demonizing the south" counts as alt-history to me.

Pretty much.

 

[Black Republican]

i dont understand why the GOT guys dont just help GRRM with producing the African Sci fi tv series?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

i dont understand why the GOT guys dont just help GRRM with producing the African Sci fi tv series?

Because at this point they know that GRRM will take 5 years to get the pilot script finished.

 

[thepotatoman]

Sounds like if they make confederate's society too much like our own, it runs the risk of looking like a "lost cause" version of history. If it's not enough like our own, it runs the risk of looking like it's denying the racism that continues to this day.

I was thinking you could use the primise to talk about modern day racism by showing how similar it is to something everyone seems to agree was wrong, but after reading this article, I don't know how you can address all the problems you would have to address.

 

[Durrzerker]

Imagine if they finally got around to casting for this show and they couldn't find any black actors willing to partake in this gross crap. That would be the best.

 

[lightskintwin]

Because at this point they know that GRRM will take 5 years to get the pilot script finished.

In George R. R. Martin's own words.

I will be an Executive Producer on WHO FEARS DEATH but I will not be the Executive Produce, i.e. the showrunner. That's an important distinction. Should we move forward, there will be a number of Executive Producers, and probably some Co-Executive Producers and Supervising Producers and Producers as well. This is television.

I will not be writing the pilot script or adapting Nnedi's novel, and it's doubtful that I will write any episodes should we go to series. Look, I probably won't be writing episodes of ANY television shows until WINDS OF WINTER is done and delivered, and that goes for the five GAME OF THRONES successor shows as well. Other writers will be scripting those pilots, and the same is true for WHO FEARS DEATH. Last week we spent most of an afternoon interviewing some great young talents, in hopes of finding the right person to script the pilot. I was part of that process, and Nnedi was too. No deal yet, but we may have an announcement soon.

It should be stressed that this project is still in its early stages. There's a long road ahead. Pilot script, pilot order, series order. But the hope of everyone involved is that, by the end, we can produce something truly special.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The direct quote is: "For over a century, Hollywood has churned out well-executed, slickly produced epics which advanced the Lost Cause myth of the Civil War. These are true “alternative histories,” built on “alternative facts,” assembled to depict the Confederacy as a wonderland of virtuous damsels and gallant knights, instead of the sprawling kleptocratic police state it actually was. From last century’s The Birth of a Nation to this century’s Gods and Generals, Hollywood has likely done more than any other American institution to obstruct a truthful apprehension of the Civil War, and thus modern America’s very origins."

No matter how you interpret the quote, Gods and Generals is a poor choice for an example here.

It's really not. I don't know how anyone who has seen that movie can come away with the argument it isn't some pro Confederacy shit

 

[MC Safety]

He's referring to "The Lost Cause" myth of the south which that movie has been criticized of perpetuating by various thinkers and film critics.

Edit: others posted this.

All right. You've chosen to focus on the lost cause, and I had opted for alternative fiction. I don't believe the book fits either category, but it may be the movie fits both.

Either way, this is secondary to the discussion of The Confederacy.

It's really not. I don't know how anyone who has seen that movie can come away with the argument it isn't some pro Confederacy shit

It covers the time when the South was ascendant, at least on Civil War battlefields, and the Union was beset by poor leadership. I don't see that as pro-confederacy, but I am willing to admit the film may be poorly done. If I saw it when it was released, it has certainly passed from memory.

 

[psyfi]

Coates is so damn articulate.

 

[El Topo]

Do you mean how it was imposed by outsider Allies? Or that it was incomplete?

Those things and more are problematic with his rebuttal of Man In The High Castle comparisons. Writing for example that "its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world" is an enormous simplification (of the process and success of denazification) and depending on who you count as leadership simply not true.

 

[Turbo Killer]

All right. You've chosen to focus on the lost cause, and I had opted for alternative fiction. I don't believe the book fits either category, but it may be the movie fits both.

Either way, this is secondary to the discussion of The Confederacy.



It covers the time when the South was ascendant, at least on Civil War battlefields, and the Union was beset by poor leadership. I don't see that as pro-confederacy, but I am willing to admit the film may be poorly done. If I saw it when it was released, it has certainly passed from memory.

Did you work on the movie? You seem awfully offended about how this movie is portrayed. I haven't seen it so I can't comment but Coates isn't the only one who believes the movie is revisionist garbage.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Those things and more are problematic with his rebuttal of Man In The High Castle comparisons. Writing for example that "its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world" is an enormous simplification (of the process and success of denazification) and depending on who you count as leadership simply not true.

As incomplete/botched as denazification was, it was still far, far, FAR better than the outright lionization Confederate leaders received after the war (none of whom were executed or even tried if I remember right).

Imagine going to Austria today and seeing a statue of Himmler or Goebbels in front of a school, or seeing the Nazi flag flying right below the German flag, with "its mah heritage!" being the excuse.

 

[LionPride]

Do people in Germany and Austria have to deal with old crazy people comin out the woodwork talkin bout heritage when someone wants to take a statue of a racist, evil, human down?

 

[Turbo Killer]

Do people in Germany and Austria have to deal with old crazy people comin out the woodwork talkin bout heritage when someone wants to take a statue of a racist, evil, human down?

I might be mistaken but I don't think they have statues of that kind there.

 

[TyrantII]

As incomplete/botched as denazification was, it was still far, far, FAR better than the outright lionization Confederate leaders received after the war (none of whom were executed or even tried if I remember right).

Imagine going to Austria today and seeing a statue of Himmler or Goebbels in front of a school, or seeing the Nazi flag flying right below the German flag, with "its mah heritage!" being the excuse.

Yep.

The union turned a blind eye to Jim Crow south, and their leaders we're allowed to go back to business and even politics. The wounds were fresh 100 years later when civil rights tried to bandaid it and the wounds are still rotting.

Even politics today is still dealing with the fallout of never really confronting the elephant in the room of slavery and racism. The Goldwater coalition of the GOP is built on racism and the nod that a poor white man is still better than a ni**er.