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Jojo's Bizarre Adventure |OT PART 2| How many threads have you opened in your life?
- Thread starter Sibersk Esto
- Start date
Astral/H3X
Member
Had to step out for a bit, right after starting a conversation lol.
I'm not *too* heavily into the manga/anime crowd, so I don't know what seinen examples there are, but I think I'd disagree about SO being head and shoulders above Bayonetta or KLK. I'd definitely agree that they are very good for different reasons, though, but Stone Ocean is progressive in a totally different way from KLK or Bayo. I'd honestly place them all on a spectrum.
With Stone Ocean, I'd describe it as a case of "Anything men can do, women can do too". Jolyne is undeniably a badass, and is a woman, and is well written. In an ideal world, Jolyne would be the baseline for female characters; strong motivations, great development, doesn't take shit from anybody, and isn't hindered by her being a woman at all. If every female character was as good as Jolyne, we'd be awesome.
But we're not, media has an undeniable bias towards male characters being badasses and getting all the women and flexing their muscles, showing off their steel abs and punching fists through the wall; men who are manly men and badass because they are men. But see, Jolyne isn't badass because she's a woman; her being badass, and her being a woman, are separate facets of who she is. You could swap her gender and very little about her character would really change; the story wouldn't have the same pro-woman impact, but Jolyne as an individual character wouldn't be drastically different.
That's where characters like Ryuuko and Bayonetta come in.
Let's start with Kill la Kill. The show has a lot of elements that are, in a vacuum, pretty typical of the "problem". Fighting in a miniskirt. Stripping enemies who happen to be women in defeat. Less clothes = more power. But, many of these elements are turned on their head: Ryuuko acknowledges how absurd it is to be fighting in a skimpy leather get up, the men are also all sexualized into fanservice (Sanegawa wearing nothing but a sword hilt comes to mind, not to mention a teacher whose clothes blow away any time he starts talking and having his nipples glow bright pink). It also is constantly pushing a theme of being comfortable with yourself and your body, to include the sexual parts of it. It's constantly blowing in the face of the idea of sex being bad, that your skin is some kind of sin, and that people need to grow up and be comfortable with something that is incredibly core to what being a human is. It does all this in an absolutely absurd way, that leads to something that I'd say straddles the line between a positive message of not being a prude and enjoying who you are, and fanservice. The result? Guys see fanservice, girls see a message mocking the view that girls should be proper and good at the expense of their sexuality.
And then we have Bayonetta, which blows right past "be comfortable with yourself and your body" and straight to "fuck you, this is my body, I love it, and I'm gonna have fun with it". The important thing about Bayonetta is she never, at any point, makes any indication that she even cares if anyone's watching -- Luka, the "audience insert" character, is often completely ignored by Bayonetta, who is often surprised Luka is even still alive. She's not doing it to seduce men into getting what she wants, she's not doing it for attention, she's doing it just because it's fun.
Additionally, she's not just badass, she's not just a woman, she's badass because she's a woman. Using her hair to summon demons to devour angels and pole dancing bosses to death doesn't just say "women can be badass", it says "Being a woman IS badass". I didn't come away from Bayonetta thinking "Wow that was a nice ass, I'd tap that", I came away thinking "I should have been a pole dancer!" (which as a guy would be very weird I admit)
Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to the message a viewer gets from the media, and that's almost entirely subjective, but I think all three have different, yet important messages.
I'm not *too* heavily into the manga/anime crowd, so I don't know what seinen examples there are, but I think I'd disagree about SO being head and shoulders above Bayonetta or KLK. I'd definitely agree that they are very good for different reasons, though, but Stone Ocean is progressive in a totally different way from KLK or Bayo. I'd honestly place them all on a spectrum.
With Stone Ocean, I'd describe it as a case of "Anything men can do, women can do too". Jolyne is undeniably a badass, and is a woman, and is well written. In an ideal world, Jolyne would be the baseline for female characters; strong motivations, great development, doesn't take shit from anybody, and isn't hindered by her being a woman at all. If every female character was as good as Jolyne, we'd be awesome.
But we're not, media has an undeniable bias towards male characters being badasses and getting all the women and flexing their muscles, showing off their steel abs and punching fists through the wall; men who are manly men and badass because they are men. But see, Jolyne isn't badass because she's a woman; her being badass, and her being a woman, are separate facets of who she is. You could swap her gender and very little about her character would really change; the story wouldn't have the same pro-woman impact, but Jolyne as an individual character wouldn't be drastically different.
That's where characters like Ryuuko and Bayonetta come in.
Let's start with Kill la Kill. The show has a lot of elements that are, in a vacuum, pretty typical of the "problem". Fighting in a miniskirt. Stripping enemies who happen to be women in defeat. Less clothes = more power. But, many of these elements are turned on their head: Ryuuko acknowledges how absurd it is to be fighting in a skimpy leather get up, the men are also all sexualized into fanservice (Sanegawa wearing nothing but a sword hilt comes to mind, not to mention a teacher whose clothes blow away any time he starts talking and having his nipples glow bright pink). It also is constantly pushing a theme of being comfortable with yourself and your body, to include the sexual parts of it. It's constantly blowing in the face of the idea of sex being bad, that your skin is some kind of sin, and that people need to grow up and be comfortable with something that is incredibly core to what being a human is. It does all this in an absolutely absurd way, that leads to something that I'd say straddles the line between a positive message of not being a prude and enjoying who you are, and fanservice. The result? Guys see fanservice, girls see a message mocking the view that girls should be proper and good at the expense of their sexuality.
And then we have Bayonetta, which blows right past "be comfortable with yourself and your body" and straight to "fuck you, this is my body, I love it, and I'm gonna have fun with it". The important thing about Bayonetta is she never, at any point, makes any indication that she even cares if anyone's watching -- Luka, the "audience insert" character, is often completely ignored by Bayonetta, who is often surprised Luka is even still alive. She's not doing it to seduce men into getting what she wants, she's not doing it for attention, she's doing it just because it's fun.
Additionally, she's not just badass, she's not just a woman, she's badass because she's a woman. Using her hair to summon demons to devour angels and pole dancing bosses to death doesn't just say "women can be badass", it says "Being a woman IS badass". I didn't come away from Bayonetta thinking "Wow that was a nice ass, I'd tap that", I came away thinking "I should have been a pole dancer!" (which as a guy would be very weird I admit)
Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to the message a viewer gets from the media, and that's almost entirely subjective, but I think all three have different, yet important messages.
Can't agree with that. My main criticism of Kill la Kill's fanservice is that while it makes fun of the fanservice and and does stuff to try and make it positive, you're also pretty obviously meant to "enjoy" the fanservice. So it's kind of having it both ways, which I'm eh about. No way I'd call it progressive; maybe relative to other anime, but not relative to normal stuff, and definitely not relative to Stone Ocean. And the Kill la Kill approach to sexuality is very...anime, so it's hard to give it too much credit.
And I disagree about Jolyne? I see where you're coming from, but when i read Stone Ocean, I felt impressed at how Araki managed to make Jolyne, Hermes, and FF all feel like "women" without resorting to stereotypes. Jolyne being a guy would change her character by a lot for me.
Not as familiar with Bayonetta, so can't say anything about that.
And I disagree about Jolyne? I see where you're coming from, but when i read Stone Ocean, I felt impressed at how Araki managed to make Jolyne, Hermes, and FF all feel like "women" without resorting to stereotypes. Jolyne being a guy would change her character by a lot for me.
Not as familiar with Bayonetta, so can't say anything about that.
JadedWriter
Member
I can see this reasoning, though I find Trish a lot less distracting than Anansui, not to mention she was more relevant to the plot. Anansui just felt like some sort of additional character from out of nowhere. So I can see the Anne resemblance with that, he was just never discarded the way she was.
Astral/H3X
Member
Yeah, I admit as much that it IS fanservice, it just also uses the fanservice to push a message as well. It straddles the line, IMO. I'd much prefer to see it like this, than the "I'm in a thong bikini for absolutely no reason because Iunno" that a lot of other anime does. Part of my opinion on this is that, personally, I think people need to be way more okay with sexuality as a whole, both men and women, and KLK works towards that. A different opinion on sexuality would lead to a vastly different opinion on the message, of course.
And KLK is like the most anime anime ever, so its sexuality being anime is more just keeping in line with the rest of it, really.
Changing her gender would definitely change someone's takeaway of the character, but I suppose more of what I was saying is that she isn't like Ken from Fist of the North Star, who is a badass because of his sheer *manliness*. She's a positive character and a positive woman, but she doesn't make the 'being a woman' part badass. She shows that you can be a woman, and be a badass, but she doesn't show that being a woman *itself* can be badass, in the way that Bayonetta does.
Fair enough
edit: lol who the fuck is kensuke, corrected that
JadedWriter
Member
KLK fanservice at least makes more sense than one particular moment in Danganronpa 2.
Astral/H3X
Member
"one"
She's an exhibitionist. It's dumb and not really done for anything other than the fanservice, but she's a closeted exhibitionist (which is kind of a funny thought lol)
EDIT: I will say that Danganronpa had a really good way about taking a stereotype character and playing them out to their ULTIMATE and unexpected developments.
JadedWriter
Member
I haven't played them in a bit, I need to pick up the PS4 collection on the cheap.
THEY even made that a clueThis is the one that I thought was pointless and always remember.
They kinda explain it in her social link that it was on purpose because she liked the attention or something
The Danganronpa 3 anime was bad with it
Another reason why it's the worst
JadedWriter
Member
I'm going to have to replays these things soon aren't I?
Sibersk Esto
Banned
The thing about Jolyne is that the story doesn't treat her femininity or anyone else's as a handicap. She doesn't have to be masculine in order to succeed and be cool.
She's outgoing and empathetic. She's sex-positive and likes to look feminine. The story is honest with the fact that women have different standards with their bodies than a man might, but that's not a bad thing.
She's outgoing and empathetic. She's sex-positive and likes to look feminine. The story is honest with the fact that women have different standards with their bodies than a man might, but that's not a bad thing.
The Scollard
Member
I wasn't really commenting on the quality or how well done each of those characters (Trish and Annasui) was, just saying that it isn't uncommon for Araki to include in a character like that, making me less likely to believe the change was editor interference. Also, the Anne thing was pointing out that very few parts of JoJo are complete sausage fests, despite the reputation of the series (really, the only Part that fits that description is Part 1).
I remember hearing about a fan theory saying that Anne was supposed to stick around for longer than the Wheel of Fortune fight, but either Araki or the readers didn't like the character, so she was put on a plane.
JadedWriter
Member
Don't worry. I think I just tend to go on tangents a bit regarding characters. I think I was just seeing where I think he succeeded and failed on that front. I can logically see why Trish is there, whereas I can't logically see why Anansui is there.
Yeah, I'unno, maybe I was reading too much into it, but Jolyne's actual character feels distinctly "a woman" rather than a guy. I don't really know how to describe it. (Fake edit: And what Sibersk Esto said, too.)
But anyway, I don't feel like Kill la KIll has a good take on sexuality, not really. Like, using Stone Ocean as an example but this applies to a lot of mature or seinen series, look at how it handles that. Jolyne gets naked, but the camera doesn't focus on her body, she just happens to be naked. Or when they talk about masturbation or whatever, it's the kind of jokesy thing that wouldn't be too out of place in real life.
Kill la Kill, on the other hand, has a pretty solidly "male gaze" camera, and relies pretty heavily on the characters getting naked, and treats it in a very unrealistic way. Yeah, they provide reasons for it being that way, but they also feel like excuses.
Kill la Kill worked for me because it treated Ryuko and Satsuki and everyone else as full characters, which fanservice series normally don't, which made it easier to ignore. But even if it doesn't undo the good parts, it's still pretty questionable.
But anyway, I don't feel like Kill la KIll has a good take on sexuality, not really. Like, using Stone Ocean as an example but this applies to a lot of mature or seinen series, look at how it handles that. Jolyne gets naked, but the camera doesn't focus on her body, she just happens to be naked. Or when they talk about masturbation or whatever, it's the kind of jokesy thing that wouldn't be too out of place in real life.
Kill la Kill, on the other hand, has a pretty solidly "male gaze" camera, and relies pretty heavily on the characters getting naked, and treats it in a very unrealistic way. Yeah, they provide reasons for it being that way, but they also feel like excuses.
Kill la Kill worked for me because it treated Ryuko and Satsuki and everyone else as full characters, which fanservice series normally don't, which made it easier to ignore. But even if it doesn't undo the good parts, it's still pretty questionable.
I suspect Anne was an editor-added thing, or a mistake from Araki. A kid character doesn't work with the lengthy travel and serious fights that the Crusaders get into; Part 5 and 7 didn't have kid characters either. Every other part with a kid character mostly happens in a single place.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Anne was probably an Araki thing honestly. He's always liked kid POV characters, but Stardust Crusaders was his biggest cast and longest story yet, so Anne was redundant. That's why characters like Poco and Smokey didn't stick around too long, and Hayato and Emporio worked better.
JadedWriter
Member
I like how Hayato was worked into the plot and actually had character initiative. Smokey and Poco have nothing on Hayato. Emporio wasn't too bad either.
To be fair they left the prison halfway through 6 though it helps Emporio thanks to useful stand and piloting skills was actually useful than Smokey, Ann and British Tom Sawyer
It but yeah it was Part 4 when he got the hang of the KIDS with 4,6,8 (even numbers huh) being done well
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Koichi was also basically "the kid" but he transitioned into one of the group.
Since the kid characters can't fight, you have to find a way to get them out of the way, since needing to constantly protect them would get annoying pretty fast. Hayato and Tsurugi get to stick around at home and Emporio can use his prison room and his stand, and they only fight when they have to. Poco, Smokey, and Anne can't do that, so they just got written away instead.
JadedWriter
Member
Emporio could learn anything anywhere with his ghost laptop.
I honestly don't remember Stone Ocean being very sexual or "sexy" in any way. I really didn't see Jolyene as sexualized, unless I'm forgetting specific scenes.
The problem I have with stuff like Bayonetta and KLK is that while I get all the arguments about them being sex-positive and subverting the ideas around how women view themselves: They're also dominated by fanservice. I don't get why we can't get things that aren't full of male-gaze shots AND still make those arguments. Maybe I'm way off base, but until I can see someone make that game or anime, I'm not sure I fully buy all the comments.
The problem I have with stuff like Bayonetta and KLK is that while I get all the arguments about them being sex-positive and subverting the ideas around how women view themselves: They're also dominated by fanservice. I don't get why we can't get things that aren't full of male-gaze shots AND still make those arguments. Maybe I'm way off base, but until I can see someone make that game or anime, I'm not sure I fully buy all the comments.
JadedWriter
Member
I wonder if anybody else drinks the menacing ghost OJ.
It has sexual 'things' like masturbation jokes or whatever, but yeah nah, it's not sexualized in the way shounen series and anime normally are. It's basically a seinen in how it handles it, heh.
Yeah, that's how I feel too.
JadedWriter
Member
More people should watch Seirei No Moribito...
JadedWriter
Member
Sounds fitting though Balsa is less hard edge than Motoko is.
Brock Reiher
Banned
Just finished Part 5. Y'all were exaggerating with Green Day, it's a weird stand based on some sort of bullshit but it has pretty consistent rules so it makes sense what's happening.
But uhhhhh..... the Requiem stuff? Reaaaaaaally interested in how they adapt that haha. Whole thing takes a quick turn to Crazy Town real fast. Maybe it'll be better with a good translation but because of that ending I still like 2/3 more.
Hayato rocks and basically is the hero of Part 4.
But uhhhhh..... the Requiem stuff? Reaaaaaaally interested in how they adapt that haha. Whole thing takes a quick turn to Crazy Town real fast. Maybe it'll be better with a good translation but because of that ending I still like 2/3 more.
They didn't give Soeedwagon his own chapters for a reason. Koichi's boring tiny self comes real close to ruining Part 4 more than once.
Hayato rocks and basically is the hero of Part 4.
Astral/H3X
Member
The question on adaptation is more "What will they animate when
the entire screen is flesh rapidly decomposing and they have to censor that stuff
Brock Reiher
Banned
JadedWriter
Member
People love Green Day because Giorno beats the shit out of him for about 7 panels straight. Yeah now go ask CNTR what the hell even happened with Gold Experience Requiem...Vento Aureo's Ending in a Nutshell
Part 5 is gory as shit in general, pfft.
Definitely interested to hear what you think about Part 6.
Requiem makes sense, but you really need to dissect Part 5's themes to figure it out. It's a bit silly.
Definitely interested to hear what you think about Part 6.
Astral/H3X
Member
Giorno will literally have to punch a black screen.
Brock Reiher
Banned
I think CR still has the censored versions? Not sure.
Brock Reiher
Banned
Huh. It is! I don't remember it being censored, what a weird thing to do.
JadedWriter
Member
They make the same joke for Part 3, but it works so much better for Part 5.
That's the rules on the channel that airs Jojo. They're uncensored on the disc release, but Crunchyroll only has the TV release.
Toonami uses the uncensored disc release, and...hoo.
JadedWriter
Member
So pretty much Part 5 is going to be unwatchable censored and unwatchable uncut.
JadedWriter
Member
So part 3 really is gorier than Parts 1 and 2? I guess I really do have to watch the dub then.
JadedWriter
Member
I've seen Parts 1 and 2 uncensored so I'm pretty desensitized to it. SDC is a whole different matter though.
YoodiHoshi
Member
One of Wang Chung's zombies also kills a guy with a flippin' life-preserver ring
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