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[Euphor!a]

You like seeing rape victims dressed in sexy halloween versions of hospital outfits and having collectible decorative posters?


You wanna try asking that question again or if it's actually misogynistic?

Is the entire extent of her character "rape victim"?

 

[LordOcidax]

Because everyone was bitching about Quiet because people rage a lot more now at everything. Nobody cared about Raiden because a naked male body is not a big deal at all.

A more reasonable thing to be upset about is if Konami forced Quiet's voice actress to do promotional shit in the bikini as part of her contract or whatever. That would be fucked up and something people should be outraged about because that's real life.

I misread...

 

[WaffleTaco]

I'm not sure it's misogynistic. Why is it so bad to have sexy ladies/men in my video games?

If there is only "sexy" women in a game, while there is a huge range of different types of men, its misogynistic and makes it seem as if only "sexy" women deserve to be represented.

 

[Outrun]

Utter nonsense right there.

It is like saying that the reason why Chun Li's knockers are so large is because she has reached such high levels of chi that they needed to be stored in enlarged tits.

 

[Euphor!a]

Wow... didn't know that...

IF

 

[SolidSnakex]

IF

It seems to be a word people are choosing to ignore a lot in this thread.

 

[Complicated]

Except not everyone thinks like you and feels it makes the games worse, in fact you and people like you are probably in the minority

Yea all those Academy Awards going to porn every year certainly back up your argument. Clearly they're just missing out on what constitutes good writing.

 

[Kazuhira]

I would be less triggered by that comment if he only admitted that he just wants big asses and tits in his games tbh,c'mon dude..be honest .

 

[Veelk]

Not to mention people are selectively picking Quiet as if it's the only type of female character Kojima has done, or that male characters haven't been shown just as sexualized in previous games.

Can you reference a female character that hasn't been sexually objectified in some way in the series?

You were encouraged to identify Meryl by her ass in MGS1, Sniper Wolf had her suit open and was specifically identified for her beauty in the briefing, Fortune wore a small, tight, latex leotard for some reason, you could make Rose's tits bounce with the controller in MGS4, Snake oogles both Mei and Naomi, the B&B unit were all highly sexual objectified (while being in a haze of mental trauma, so you can fap while their having PTSD flashbacks for extra fun!), there is of course EVA (in both MGS3 and as an old lady in MGS4), and even the otherwise respectable Boss opens up her shirt to give you an easy view of her cleavage, you could molest the female soldiers in MGS4 (or atleast make them feel molested enough that they turn around and backhand you even though you have a gun on them), and there is of course Quiet who as far as I know is the only female character in MGSV (I didn't play the whole game) and I didn't hear flattering things about Paz.

Literally the only character that I can think of who wasn't put in a situation where they were either inappropriately dressed, oogled, or otherwise had focus brought to their sex is Natasha Romanenko (the only reason that she avoided it is that she was in the game so little that everyone forgot about her and you yourself are probably probably googling her right now to remember who the fuck she is) and I guess maybe Sunny (because she's like 8 and I guess even Kojima isn't skeevy enough to go full pedo, despite Paz)?

In contrast, I guess you see the Snakes in some state of undress, Raiden, and Vamp. And that's it for the males unless I'm forgetting something. And of those, only Raiden was ever in a real state of undress where the focus was brought to his sexual parts. And other than Vamp, while we see the Snakes in states of undress, you can't ignore that there is an element of power fantasy in that too, rather than being sexually objectified.

 

[Euphor!a]

Yea all those Academy Awards going to porn every year certainly back up your argument. Clearly they're just missing out on what constitutes good writing.

Pretty sure porn companies don't submit their work to the Academy.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Are people REALLY arguing about this for the thousandth time? Kojima is full of shit and is indefensible at this point. Ffs

 

[Sparkedglory]

Wow... didn't know that...

There's an IF that you're ignoring there.

 

[Complicated]

Pretty sure porn companies don't submit their work to the Academy.

Because they are self-aware unlike Kojima in this instance.

 

[Euphor!a]

Because they are self-aware unlike Kojima in this instance.

Or because they are not eligible, c'mon bro.

Edit: Also lol, Kojima is like the most self-aware person on the planet.

 

[Pinko Marx]

It seems to be a word people are choosing to ignore a lot in this thread.

Its not the we're ignoring it. I'm not at least. But Kojima has a pattern, so its not even an IF thing, its just more WHEN if we're going to be honest.

 

[Ninjimbo]

Can you reference a female character that hasn't been sexually objectified in some way in the series?

You were encouraged to identify Meryl by her ass in MGS1, Sniper Wolf had her suit open and was specifically identified for her beauty in the briefing, Fortune wore a small, tight, latex leotard for some reason, you could make Rose's tits bounce with the controller in MGS4, Snake oogles both Mei and Naomi, the B&B unit were all highly sexual objectified (while being in a haze of mental trauma, so you can fap while their having PTSD flashbacks for extra fun!), you could molest the female soldiers in MGS4 (or atleast make them feel molested enough that they turn around and backhand you even though you have a gun on them), and there is of course Quiet who as far as I know is the only female character in MGSV (I didn't play the whole game) and I didn't hear flattering things about Paz.

Literally the only character that I can think of who wasn't put in a situation where they were either inappropriately dressed, oogled, or otherwise had focus brought to their sex is Natasha Romanenko (the only reason that she avoided it is that she was in the game so little that everyone forgot about her and you yourself are probably probably googling her right now to remember who the fuck she is) and I guess maybe Sunny (because she's like 8 and I guess even Kojima isn't skeevy enough to go full pedo, despite Paz)?

I can give your that there was some sexualization going on with male characters, but you can see the disparate frequency between the two gender's sexualization.

Amanda is pretty cool. Kojima handles her very well from what I remember. But you have to play Peace Walker to understand.

 

[whalleywhat]

If there is only "sexy" women in a game, while there is a huge range of different types of men, its misogynistic and makes it seem as if only "sexy" women deserve to be represented.

The Boss
Strangelove
Meryl
Sniper Wolf

Are some of these women romantically involved with male characters and objectified to the degree that these men are interested in them sexually? Of course. Is it just some pin up show of cheesecake that shows up like some sort of USO show? Of course not. There are times when Kojima indulges himself with the female characters in his games, and there are also plenty of times when they are developed characters as important to the story as the males.

Edit: Also lol, Kojima is like the most self-aware person on the planet.

Seriously. Not a criticism I thought I'd ever see levelled against him.

 

[SystemUser]

It really didn't. At all. Breathing through your skin is NOT an excuse to do close up ass shots of the character.

Didn't you know that the ass is the window to the soul?

 

[Asriel]

That is sexualization, too. It is not a one way street.

So this post actually happened.

 

[Metal B]

MGS has always been both serious and comedic/weird. Quiet's inclusion is weird, like Raiden cartwheeling naked in mgs2 is weird. It's not malicious, which is what people are acting like.

Raiden being naked is a one time joke and at the same shows, how much of a joke he is in comparison to Snake. The other is the main design of a character, which isn't represent as a joke, played straight, an important part of her characrer and at the same time meaningless. Her not talking, is actually much more meaningful and actually doesn't make her look stupid.

If a female (or a gay man) wrote something aimed at women/gay men, featuring sexualized male characters, that would be 100% okay. There's nothing wrong with that because there's nothing wrong with sexuality. Many people here are using "context" disingenuously, when their real opinion is that a straight male writer shouldn't write sexualized female characters.

It would not be "100% okay". Don't create strawmans. There is also Over-Sexualization in media aimed at woman, which similarity can give them a wrong impression of men (Shades of Grey, Twilight).
Straight male writer are allowed to create sexualized female characters, but it should have a good reason and not simply be a default state. Yes, we want context, which makes sense. Like Eva in MGS3, who uses her sexuality to manipulate Snake.

Like I said earlier, there are different sects/waves of feminists as there are sex-positive people and sex-negative people. The people raging at Kojima are doing it from a sex-negative perspective imo, but they don't realize it because they're incapable of being objective about both sexes or thinking that women can be sexualized in fiction without jumping to the conclusion that the writer thinks women in real life are dolls.

Wow, that's a lot of bullshit. Yeah, there is a secret society, which has the goal to take all the fun out of sexual characters. You got us! Here you can have a cookie.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Is the entire extent of her character "rape victim"?

This is your main defense for the treatment of Paz in MGSV? Because that IS the entire extent of her character in MGSV, she's a torture/rape victim who gets a bomb shoved inside her vagina and then sacrifices herself. That's where her characterization in MGSV starts and ends. It's written solely for the sake of shock value and to show that a dude named Skullface is evil.

Or because they are not eligible, c'mon bro.

Edit: Also lol, Kojima is like the most self-aware person on the planet.

He genuinely thought the generic zombie esque plot of MGSV about language parasites would elevate the medium. He has some aspects of self awareness but MGSV had very little of that.

 

[DragonGirl]

Can we please just kill the idea that somehow a deep backstory or well developed personality balances out sexualization? It doesn't. These things aren't related at all. Just because you have a deep story reason for why your female character pole dances to defeat her enemies doesn't balance out the fact that she's pole dancing. It's a contrived excuse, and an obvious one too. Stop doing this, it's flat embarrassing and insulting.

If you want to make something where over blown sex appeal is part of it, then just own that and label it for what it is right on the lid. You know what you like. You know what audience you are going for. You know who you are excluding. If you feel like you are doing something wrong then reassess what you are going for. Don't try to cover it up with this lame shit.

I also disagree that context is important. It's sometimes important. Shoving sexualized characters into a game out of nowhere never has context that excuses it and often the excuse just makes it worse because now you feel like the dev is talking down to your intelligence level and ability to see a obvious excuse for an obvious excuse.

 

[Complicated]

Edit: Also lol, Kojima is like the most self-aware person on the planet.

In certain ways. This is not one of them. Defending this aspect of his work simply can't be done rationally combined with his public statements about it. He indulges in it to the detriment of his work, and tries to justify it in ridiculous ways.

 

[meltingparappa]

Its not the we're ignoring it. I'm not at least. But Kojima has a pattern, so its not even an IF thing, its just more WHEN if we're going to be honest.

Good lord, yes, Kojima is clearly a sexual predator waiting to pounce, and as a civil society, we must stop him from putting another character in a bikini.

For the record, Stefanie Joosten expressed in countless occasions how she loved the character, Kojima and being a part of the project.

But of course, maybe someone will hand-wave an actual woman and human being's words, accomplishment, art away by saying she was coerced by a man, just like in threads referencing Bayonetta's character designer.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

It seems to be a word people are choosing to ignore a lot in this thread.

It's especially that way with Kojima topics here. It's weird. Like, some don't respect him as a human being for how he and his lead artist design a virtual character. People here see what they want to. They see Quiet's design but they don't acknowledge that her outfit can be changed basically negating many of the problems they have with the design in the first place. People gotta manufacture that drama when they have no real problems I guess.

 

[Euphor!a]

In certain ways. This is not one of them. Defending this aspect of his work simply can't be done rationally combined with his public statements about it. He indulges in it to the detriment of his work, and tries to justify it in ridiculous ways.

No, in every way. If you think he is some how oblivious in this regard you have lost the plot.

 

[shoreu]

Do people really believe this ?

"i have to be naked or i will die"

Nice story you got there

What lol what?

Please someone go into depth over this

 

[theangrypirate]

You like seeing rape victims dressed in sexy halloween versions of hospital outfits and having collectible decorative posters?

How about some sexualized torture scenes for women?

And tops that magically open when a woman is being murdered and about to be raped?

You wanna try asking that question again or if it's actually misogynistic?

I don't find any of that sexy and depicting rape in any medium is uncomfortable. I'm not sure the way the character is dressed makes the scenes you describe any more or less misogynistic though.

 

[Euphor!a]

This is your main defense for the treatment of Paz in MGSV? Because that IS the entire extent of her character in MGSV, she's a torture/rape victim who gets a bomb shoved inside her vagina and then sacrifices herself. That's where her characterization in MGSV starts and ends. It's written solely for the sake of shock value and to show that a dude named Skullface is evil.

I'm not making a defense, I'm asking you a question.

 

[Veelk]

Amanda is pretty cool. Kojima handles her very well from what I remember. But you have to play Peace Walker to understand.

One google later, and I already see that her body in underwear is given to the player for S-ranking the game.

So she's sexually objectified even more literally than most others. Her scantily clad body is literally given as a reward.

 

[WaffleTaco]

The Boss
Strangelove
Meryl
Sniper Wolf

Are some of these women romantically involved with male characters and objectified to the degree that these men are interested in them sexually? Of course. Is it just some pin up show of cheesecake that shows up like some sort of USO show? Of course not. There are times when Kojima indulges himself with the female characters in his games, and there are also plenty of times when they are developed characters as important to the story as the males.



Seriously. Not a criticism I thought I'd ever see levelled against him.

Those four are all skinny white women....

 

[Pinko Marx]

Good lord, yes, Kojima is clearly a sexual predator waiting to pounce, and as a civil society, we must stop him from putting another character in a bikini.

Exactly!

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's especially that way with Kojima topics here. It's weird. Like, some don't respect him as a human being for how he and his lead artist design a virtual character. People here see what they want to. They see Quiet's design but they don't acknowledge that her outfit can be changed basically negating many of the problems they have with the design in the first place. People gotta manufacture that drama when they have no real problems I guess.

You realize that even with a changed outfit we're still dealing with a character who's solely written to justify said outfit, who still animalistic poses in a helicopter like a cat in heat, who has to have two literally trophy color options unlocked before you can unlock a reasonable outfit, who's outfits don't actually work in cutscenes without mods, absolutely NOTHING about the controversy or criticism o Quiet is manufactured in anyway shape or form.

I don't find any of that sexy and depicting rape in any medium is uncomfortable. I'm not sure the way the character is dressed makes the scenes you describe any more or less misogynistic though.

Even if YOU don't find it sexy, the intent is clear. They're misogynistic concepts in general, there's nothing wrong with a woman being tortured, but there's plenty wrong with a torture scene of a woman focusing on her breasts and wet skin, there's nothing wrong with a woman wearing a bikini, there's plenty wrong with the sole female character wearing a bikini in Afghanistan as a sniper because she breathes through her skin, while the rest of the cast is designed like mercenaries:

I'm not making a defense, I'm asking you a question.

Which was answered in that post, the extent of Paz's characterization, because it's borderline non-existent, is that she's a torture/rape victim who's body was exploited by the creator for shock value.

 

[whalleywhat]

He genuinely thought the generic zombie esque plot of MGSV about language parasites would elevate the medium. He has some aspects of self awareness but MGSV had very little of that.

Nefarious characters trying to kill off every language other than English? Parasites that need to have their gender changed to female in order to prevent them from reproducing? I found it pretty interesting.

Those four are all skinny white women....

lol ok. Kojima please make The Boss an overweight poc, otherwise she's not a strong character... I just don't even.

 

[throwawayname]

Just admit you are thirsty Kojima-san.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

Is it that hard to just not sexualize women? Let alone the way he does? Jesus.

 

[Kindekuma]

What lol what?

Please someone go into depth over this

In the beginning of MGSV, Ishmael lights Quiet on fire after she attempts to assassinate Big Boss. She winds up falling out of the window and hits the ground from several stories up. Her body and organs were charred, but thanks to the miracle of

Spoiler

parasites, a major plot element in MGSV, her new skin acts as her lungs. Clothes therefore suffocates her like a plastic bag on one's head.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

What I really want to avoid is, like you see in some games, characters with big breasts with no back story,” said Kojima. “If I make characters that at first glance might look like this then they’ll have a deep background story to give a specific reason why.

Ahaha. That quote is amazing.

 

[Complicated]

No, in every way. If you think he is some how oblivious in this regard you have lost the plot.

If your defense is that it's just a prank (bro) then it's even worse as he's contributing to a serious problem the industry and society faces for no actual reason at all. Also making his games worse for a joke that I have never seen anyone call funny. The male sexualization in his games is usually played for laughs. Not the female.

 

[UtterlyPerplexed]

For the record, Stefanie Joosten expressed in countless occasions how she loved the character, Kojima and being a part of the project.

Of course she would openly extol all about how much she loved being the character and being in the project. She was paid to be in it. And even if (in the very likely chance) she genuinely means it, Joosten is not suddenly someone who speaks for anyone else other than herself. Just because she's okay with it doesn't absolve Kojima of anything.

 

[flkraven]

Ahaha. That quote is amazing.

Breasts must have meaning

 

[WaffleTaco]

Nefarious characters trying to kill off every language other than English? Parasites that need to have their gender changed to female in order to prevent them from reproducing? I found it pretty interesting.



lol ok. Kojima please make The Boss an overweight poc, otherwise she's not a strong character... I just don't even.

You really don't see the problem with not representing people of color and women who are not super skinny?

 

[Angry Fork]

Can you reference a female character that hasn't been sexually objectified in some way in the series?

You were encouraged to identify Meryl by her ass in MGS1, Sniper Wolf had her suit open and was specifically identified for her beauty in the briefing, Fortune wore a small, tight, latex leotard for some reason, you could make Rose's tits bounce with the controller in MGS4, Snake oogles both Mei and Naomi, the B&B unit were all highly sexual objectified (while being in a haze of mental trauma, so you can fap while their having PTSD flashbacks for extra fun!), there is of course EVA (in both MGS3 and as an old lady in MGS4), and even the otherwise respectabler Boss opens up her shirt to give you an easy view of her cleavage, you could molest the female soldiers in MGS4 (or atleast make them feel molested enough that they turn around and backhand you even though you have a gun on them), and there is of course Quiet who as far as I know is the only female character in MGSV (I didn't play the whole game) and I didn't hear flattering things about Paz.

Literally the only character that I can think of who wasn't put in a situation where they were either inappropriately dressed, oogled, or otherwise had focus brought to their sex is Natasha Romanenko (the only reason that she avoided it is that she was in the game so little that everyone forgot about her and you yourself are probably probably googling her right now to remember who the fuck she is) and I guess maybe Sunny (because she's like 8 and I guess even Kojima isn't skeevy enough to go full pedo, despite Paz)?

I can give your that there was some sexualization going on with male characters, but you can see the disparate frequency between the two gender's sexualization.

Most of the characters you mentioned at least have their own importance to the overall story that goes beyond their physical appearance, and most have their own character arc's/growth. The boss, nyomi, eva, meryl etc. are all characters people liked a lot and it had nothing to do with their physical appearance, that was basically just perv shit for straight gamers (I'm arguing that this is fine and not an existential evil that should be purged). That evens out the sexual stuff and shows Kojima hasn't always written characters like Quiet.

Quiet is basically just filler, but what I'm saying is it's not because Kojima hates women it's because MGS5's story is non-existent and he didn't have any use for such a character. This is proven by the fact that you can kill her early on in the game and never see her again.

 

[Audioboxer]

Of course she would openly extol all about how much she loved being the character and being in the project. She was paid to be in it. And even if (in the very likely chance) she genuinely means it, Joosten is not suddenly someone who speaks for anyone else other than herself. Just because she's okay with it doesn't absolve Kojima of anything.

I mean that is kind of true about a lot in life. One thing that can be grating in these debates is anyone thinking they speak for a whole gender. Happens, A LOT. Often by males claiming they speak for all women, on both sides of the debate.

 

[Euphor!a]

If your defense is that it's just a prank (bro) then it's even worse as he's contributing to a serious problem the industry and society faces for no actual reason at all. Also making his games worse for a joke that I have never seen anyone call funny. The male sexualization in his games is usually played for laughs. Not the female.

You can say it is contributing to the downfall of the industry all you like, but it isn't.

And again, you keep saying it makes his games worse, you are in the minority on this issue and is not the general opinion.

 

[King Tubby]

It's funny because 90% of people's issues with Quiet could've been solved by just giving her clothes.

Well, also not having her look longingly at Snake all the time in the chopper.

 

[RM8]

Women like 50 Shades of Grey. Am I really supposed to like Quiet because a woman liked her? The woman who got paid to play her, too, lol.

 

[Complicated]

You can say it is contributing to the downfall of the industry all you like, but it isn't.

And again, you keep saying it makes his games worse, you are in the minority on this issue and is not the general opinion.

Ok. You are the minority in this issue and yours is not the general opinion. See, I can type it too!

Come up with an actual argument if you're going to keep posting. This adds nothing to the conversation, and putting words like downfall into my mouth don't count as an argument either.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Nefarious characters trying to kill off every language other than English? Parasites that need to have their gender changed to female in order to prevent them from reproducing? I found it pretty interesting.

It's about as stupid as a woman getting a c-section that somehow went all the way up to her breasts for the sake of snake imagery.

It's funny because 90% of people's issues with Quiet could've been solved by just giving her clothes.

Well, also not having her look longingly at Snake all the time in the chopper.

You aren't but people itt wonder what's wrong with representation in games yet are trying to defend a character who if you stare at her breasts long enough she's pose for you.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

Quiet's explanation made sense. If my woman would suffocate when wearing clothes, I gladly would have kept her naked all the time.