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Lebron not on short list for NBA MVP
- Thread starter Skellig Gra
- Start date
Exploratory
Banned
It's a regular season award. I always hated when people couldn't understand that.
Nastrodamous
Member
Curry isn't anywhere near LeBron. come on dude.
friskykillface
Banned
Regular season MVP
LeBron coasted x rested through the season
Like Mannings mvps , doesn't mean shit in the post season
LeBron coasted x rested through the season
Like Mannings mvps , doesn't mean shit in the post season
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Are you not watching the playoffs? If you don't question Kawhi or KD I don't know how you could Curry.
PanSexual_Peacock
Member
Duncan actually won two
Does He? Lebron has a 3-4 Career Finals record. Thats sub .500 and not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Now lets talk about last season. The Cavs were trailing GSW 3-1 before Bogut got hurt. Its probably not a coincidence that Cleveland won 3 games straight after GSW lost their best rim protector.
LeBron James did not have the best regular season in the NBA this year therefore LeBron James does not deserve to be regular season MVP of the NBA. LeBron James probably doesn't deserve to be one of the 3 Finalists for MVP this year (this would, of course, change if there were 4 Finalists). I actually think the voters got it right!
LeBron James is still the best player in the NBA because no one, especially LeBron James, cares all that much about the regular season. Here are LeBron James' playoff stats this year: http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1966/lebron-james. Feel free to post a more impressive statline. Oh, and his team is now 10-0.
Who had the best regular season and who is the best player are two very different arguments that you've conflated.
He constantly bitched and moaned about resting etc. And he threw his teammates under the bus when they played like shit. He cried about getting help because he knew he has no shot against the Warriors. So they went out and got Williams/Korver so Lebron he could stop Q_Qn. It was an embarrassingly bad year for him and one of the few years he doesn't belong in the conversation. The other 3 guys deserve it much more.
Shamrock7r
Member
Kawhi Leonard should be the mvp this year. Only All -Star on his team, lost an all time great teammate in Duncan, and took the Spurs to 60+wins with elite offense and defense.
Award is going to Harden though
Award is going to Harden though
Im not conflating anything.
Lebron is neither the best player in the NBA or the MVP. This season it was unquestionably Westbrook.
Also you know what other players who dont try in the regular season are called? Low Motor players. If Lebron cant get it up every game he isnt the best player. Its pretty simple.
Edit. Lebron averaging 26/8/8 isnt that impressive when Westbrook is averaging 30/10/10 and Harden is averaging 29/8/11.
Lebron is neither the best player in the NBA or the MVP. This season it was unquestionably Westbrook.
Also you know what other players who dont try in the regular season are called? Low Motor players. If Lebron cant get it up every game he isnt the best player. Its pretty simple.
Edit. Lebron averaging 26/8/8 isnt that impressive when Westbrook is averaging 30/10/10 and Harden is averaging 29/8/11.
MidnightCowboy
Member
The only thing that is simple is that LeBron is the best player on the planet. If you can't see that, that's on you. It's not subjective. He's quite simply the best. He gives you a better chance to win than any other single player.
Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.
Kevin Durant led the NBA in WS/48 this season. So logically Durant would be the player who gives your team the best chance to win this season.
I repeat
This is what happens when you try to analyze basketball like you would baseball.
it is a single game. single games tend to matter more in the playoffs, for obvious reasons, especially elimination games.
lebron knows this as well, that's how he can be the best player in the league without having to put up the best stats in the regular season and have it go wholly undisputed by any reasonable person watching the sport.
Kevin Durant missed 20 games this year. LeBron James missed 8 games this year. Check the respective team records during those games. This isn't hard.
MidnightCowboy
Member
Because LeBron wasn't trying and still had a top 5 season. When he tries it's game over, as the playoffs are showing.
Numbers aren't everything. It's possible to be too logical. You're either overthinking it or you're a hater. Just sit back and watch greatness.
Shamrock7r
Member
Yep. Harden is a fraud. I don't imagine a team will win a championship with him as the best player because his offensive style and lack of defensive play doesn't translate well to post season success
Hyperactivity
Banned
LeBron has legitimate reason to win in 2011, and 2014, and maybe 2015 had he not missed that stretch of games. 2011 is the only really bad snub.
Everything else, well mvp is a regular season award
It's like saying early 2000s shaq wasn't always mvp, despite being one of the most dominant players in that stretch of all time
Everything else, well mvp is a regular season award
It's like saying early 2000s shaq wasn't always mvp, despite being one of the most dominant players in that stretch of all time
Pretty much
As a life long Tar Heel fan that somewhat remembers the 82 Championship, I loved Jordan as a player. If LeBron quits today, I would rank him 2. If he continues at an All NBA first team level and gets 1 more ring, I rank LeBron 1st. I hate the dismissive attitude people get about this how no one can surpass Jordan.
MidnightCowboy
Member
2011 is the only stain on his career. Every time he's lost besides that was to the better team. 2015 is for sure a question mark though because of the injuries.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Also, harden didn't show up that one game, but he did damn well otherwise. Want elimination games? 2015 games 4 and 5. And that entire warriors series, asides from the last game
oh I don't know, look at lebron's numbers in the playoffs every year. maybe watch him play in some of the games. consider the last time he's missed the finals. consider how many of those seasons he led every stat category in the regular season. you know, the usual stuff.
MVP doesn't mean he isn't the best player hands down in the NBA. The perfomance he is putting in these playoffs, coupled with what he achieved last season. He is on his way to 7 straight NBA finals. Think about that. This man single handedly carries his teams each years to the championships, win or lose.
This man will retire as the GOAT. As someone who grew up watching MJ, this is just insane.
This man will retire as the GOAT. As someone who grew up watching MJ, this is just insane.
Elfforkusu
Member
Just like MJ, he's not going to win MVPs even when he's the MVP.
Hyperactivity
Banned
I meant mvp, but yeah. Well, there was the 2010 delonte west game, but yeah. 2011 and Dirk, before LeBron, bosh, etc. went heavily to small ball, is the main stain against him
That 2015 cavs team, looking back, probably wins it, but if my cat barked it would be a dog, no johns
Dreams-Visions
Member
LeBron is the MVP every year.
There needs to be a Player of The Year award that is a bit different. Russ was clearly the player of the year. But most valuable? Clearly that's LeBron.
There needs to be a Player of The Year award that is a bit different. Russ was clearly the player of the year. But most valuable? Clearly that's LeBron.
I would love to talk about basketball like basketball. However until a baseline is set for discussing what is actually happening on the court (usually measured by statistics) a reasonable basketball conversation cant take place.
So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest? Thats not a very coherent arguement. There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior. So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.
Why should I do that? WS/48 is an individual metric that seeks to determine a players individual importance. Correlation and causation are two very different things. GSW being a better team then Cleveland without Lebron doesnt tell you anything useful about either player as an individual. At most it says the Lebron is better then his backup by a greater margin then Durant is better then his own backup.
Shamrock7r
Member
Baseball has always lended itself to being tracked, stat wise.
There are a lot of variables to Basketball that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Defensive stats, for example, are widely understood as not being a great overall indicator of defensive play in Basketball.
The most valuable player on the court is the guy who goes all out
no, that's a silly thing to say
it is not. I didn't argue it, however, so there's that.
what does that have to do with Lebron?
other players aren't Lebron? other players don't go deep in the playoffs year in and year out like clockwork while playing like Lebron? might help if you name some of these other players so we can see how not-Lebron-like they are
To be fair, defense stats in baseball are known to be not too accurate in assessing defensive talent, seeing as the different ones vary. At least the stats that are publicly available to us.
But yes, in baseball the essence of it happens in a finite, easily understood way, regarding the pitch and the position player's action. In basketball there is a whole lot of variables that come into play that make advanced stats not as valuable. I'm still a big fan of them, and they are still improving, but it's something to take into consideration.
Frankly, someone trying to argue that Lebron isn't the best player and that there's five or more guys that are just as good hurts my head.
Shamrock7r
Member
I agree and what is tracked in Basketball helps a lot in understanding how good a player is, you just have to approach it as part of the argument, but not the whole story. I wish more stats were covered, like hockey assists, and more defensive stats were emphasized.
No doubt, Lebron is on his own tier.
I mean this kind of says it all. Nobody cares that Lebron was very likely the best regular season player in 2011 (he was). He failed miserably, on his own terms, in the games that actually mattered. He is rightly criticized for what went down that season.
No there doesn't. MVP works as necessary: celebrating the best individual season in the NBA. LeBron has all star accolades, first team NBA honors, and MVP ballots every year to furnish the claim that he's the best player on the planet, but that's not what the MVP award is.
Just like how the Warriors were the best team in the NBA last season, but they don't get the Larry O'Brien for that.
Statistics are one component of it but those statistics need to be contextualized. In the context of determining the regular season MVP, fine, go nuts with your statistical arguments. I'm certainly not going to argue that Lebron is deserves the MVP, or even top-3 consideration. Though I am amused that you state Westbrook is the best player this year even though advanced stats hate his season, but that's another discussion.
But I would hesitate to use those stats when trying to definitively say Lebron isn't clearly the best player in the league. Because that's an entirely different question that follows an entirely different set of criteria. Maybe in baseball, where the relatively low amount of opportunities to influence the game, the lack of playoff spots, and the nature of the sport where there's no clock and the ability to comeback is always in play means that baseball players must put forth max effort all the time. At least there, regular season stats DO matter.
No, players who give a lack of effort in the playoffs are seen as inferior. Nobody gives a crap if Lebron checks out on defense in some random 3rd quarter possession of some mid-March game against the Magic or whatever because he's coasting.
Dion Blaster
Member
Those two and Kawhi are top 3 in almost every advanced stat this postseason. It's pretty clear the top 4 is them and Durant. How far above them Lebron resides is just splitting hairs.
Seriously? Playoff performance cannot be reduced to finals record. This ignores the insane performances he puts up even in losses, and ignores his complete dominance of teams in the first three rounds.
Win shares aren't WAR. You're conflating baseball with basketball. Again. Like, you started out by arguing that DeMarcus Cousins was as good as LeBron. You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about and are googling around for context-free stats when you clearly don't understand what they actually tell you. Basketball isn't baseball because basketball is:
(a) a true team sport, unlike baseball, which is largely a series of individual encounters masquerading as a team sport
(b) a sport in which the regular season is a relative formality because every team that doesn't completely suck makes the playoffs
(c) a consistently physically taxing sport that incentivizes players to conserve energy and minimize wear-and-tear in the regular season because of (b)
You would understand that LeBron James is an exponentially better basketball player than DeMarcus Cousins if you had ever watched a basketball game or understood the sport beyond a surface level of who had the most ppg. in the regular season or whatever.
TheBaldEmperor
Member
The fact that Shaquille freaking O'Neal has only one of these should tell you tell you this award is largely garbage.
This argument has always bothered me. It suggests losing in the ECF (or worse) a couple times would have somehow improved his legacy. Losing in the finals is the second best result possible for an NBA player, and as has already been stated 2011 is the only one of those losses that has any real weight.
LeBron's playoff record and personal performance in them is absolutely a ringing endorsement and dwarfs the other players on your list.
Context? This is the reigning NBA Finals MVP in his 14th NBA season with near 200 playoff games thrown on top, not early 20s Harden giving zero effort on defense.
All that said, I have no issue with LeBron being outside the top 3 for the regular season MVP award this year.
ForsakenLotus
Member
There is no legitimate argument for LeBron being MVP this season. Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi all had MVP caliber seasons that surpass everybody else. Isiah Thomas also has a better resume.
friskykillface
Banned
Delly the goat
Championships won in Cleveland with Delly 🐐 - 1
Championships won in Cleveland without Delly 🐐 - ?
ForsakenLotus
Member
Boston is a clearly inferior team to the Cavs, yet despite that Boston was still the number 1 seed in the East. He also is the only All-Star player on his team, whereas the Cavs have three including LeBron James. And most importantly, Isiah Thomas put up ridiculous 4th quarter scoring stats on a team that desperately needed it.
So yes, I think Isiah Thomas has a stronger case for MVP than LeBron James does this year.
I agree.
Also agree expecpt for the lebron in his own tier. That may have been true in the past but that doesnt make it true this past season.
That line was in response to others using win loss record as a reasonable test for a players quality. By their own reasonable standards lebron failed the test. There are clearly much better ways to test if lebron has peformed well.
As for his dominance in the early rounds. The east is anecdotally seen as a lesser conference for a reason. Strength of schedule is an important factor to consider when assesing Lebron's early round dominance.
Case in point. These playoffs James Harden spent the first 2 rounds mostly being defended by Kawhi Leonard and Andre Roberson. Lebrons primary defensive matchups beyond the first round series vs the Pacers where he was matched up with Paul George are significantly worse then those 2 players.
Statistics are only part of the picture, but they are a reasonably accurate measure of what is happening. Obviously they are much less reliable then baseball. However they are worth discussing as the best availiable evidence.
Boogie Cousins averaged close to 28/11/5 in Sacramento and overall averaged 27/11.1/4.6 for the season overall including shooting .360 from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game (Lebron shot .363 on 4.6 attempts) that is reasonably similar to Lebron's rounded average of 26/9/9. So its fair to say by production those players deserve to be in the same tier. Boogie was a better FT shooter.
This is especially true when you start to factor in role and positional varience. For instance bigs by their very nature typically rely on guards to help create for them while perimiter players find it easier to create their own shot. This is reversed defensively where Bigs typically cover for the mistakes of perimiter players. So lebron has a team built around him where he Drives/facilitates while Kyrie primarily drives and both have lots of space since they are surrounded by shooters.
Conversly Boogie played this season in Sacramento and New Orleans. Neither team has more then passable guard play. That inherently puts Boogie at a disagvantage in a direct comparison to Lebron.
Now Lebron is better then Boogie. However its pretty close and they definitely belong in the same sentance.
Raylan Targaryen
Member
Not on the short list so he wins by 46 on the road in a conference finals.
Should have saved the snub for the finals
Should have saved the snub for the finals
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I can't think of anything further from 'edgelord' than someone who decides NBA MVPs.