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[Ragnarok]

Today I learned the DeMarcus Cousins, someone who's never been to the playoffs or even had a winning season, is in the same conversation as Lebron. A man who at the same point in his career that Cousins is now, carried a team starting Sasha Pavlovic and whose second best player was Larry Hughes, to the NBA finals.

 

[newjeruse]

I think the only year LeBron definitely didn't deserve MVP was last year when Curry went absolutely nuts...and MAYBE Westbrook this year.

Crazy how newer NBA fans try to put LeBron ahead of Jordan. I get that if you've never seen Jordan you may not get it, but Jordan was an absolute basketball god.

I'm a child of the 80's and was completely locked into the NBA in the 90's. Lebron is better than Jordan.

 

[Servbot24]

Today I learned the DeMarcus Cousins, someone who's never been to the playoffs or even had a winning season, is in the same conversation as Lebron. A man who at the same point in his career that Cousins is now, carried a team starting Sasha Pavlovic and who's second best player was Larry Hughes, to the NBA finals.

Sure if you count every looney thing ever said on the internet as a conversation

 

[Ragnarok]

Sure if you count every looney thing ever said on the internet as a conversation

I think it was one of those Skip Bayless troll accounts

 

[sans_pants]

Boogie Cousins averaged close to 28/11/5 in Sacramento and overall averaged 27/11.1/4.6 for the season overall including shooting .360 from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game (Lebron shot .363 on 4.6 attempts) that is reasonably similar to Lebron's rounded average of 26/9/9. So its fair to say by production those players deserve to be in the same tier. Boogie was a better FT shooter.

This is especially true when you start to factor in role and positional varience. For instance bigs by their very nature typically rely on guards to help create for them while perimiter players find it easier to create their own shot. This is reversed defensively where Bigs typically cover for the mistakes of perimiter players. So lebron has a team built around him where he Drives/facilitates while Kyrie primarily drives and both have lots of space since they are surrounded by shooters.

Conversly Boogie played this season in Sacramento and New Orleans. Neither team has more then passable guard play. That inherently puts Boogie at a disagvantage in a direct comparison to Lebron.

Now Lebron is better then Boogie. However its pretty close and they definitely belong in the same sentance.

this is a truly hideous argument

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Reaction thread? Reaction thread.

 

[Jimrpg]

Boogie Cousins averaged close to 28/11/5 in Sacramento and overall averaged 27/11.1/4.6 for the season overall including shooting .360 from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game (Lebron shot .363 on 4.6 attempts) that is reasonably similar to Lebron's rounded average of 26/9/9. So its fair to say by production those players deserve to be in the same tier. Boogie was a better FT shooter.

This is especially true when you start to factor in role and positional varience. For instance bigs by their very nature typically rely on guards to help create for them while perimiter players find it easier to create their own shot. This is reversed defensively where Bigs typically cover for the mistakes of perimiter players. So lebron has a team built around him where he Drives/facilitates while Kyrie primarily drives and both have lots of space since they are surrounded by shooters.

Conversly Boogie played this season in Sacramento and New Orleans. Neither team has more then passable guard play. That inherently puts Boogie at a disagvantage in a direct comparison to Lebron.

Now Lebron is better then Boogie. However its pretty close and they definitely belong in the same sentance.

LOL.

 

[mjp2417]

Today I learned the DeMarcus Cousins, someone who's never been to the playoffs or even had a winning season, is in the same conversation as Lebron. A man who at the same point in his career that Cousins is now, carried a team starting Sasha Pavlovic and whose second best player was Larry Hughes, to the NBA finals.

LeBron was actually 4 years younger during that Finals run. Which, yeah.

 

[The Chosen One]

LeBaby will get over it.

 

[mjp2417]

Boogie Cousins averaged close to 28/11/5 in Sacramento and overall averaged 27/11.1/4.6 for the season overall including shooting .360 from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game (Lebron shot .363 on 4.6 attempts) that is reasonably similar to Lebron's rounded average of 26/9/9. So its fair to say by production those players deserve to be in the same tier. Boogie was a better FT shooter.

This is especially true when you start to factor in role and positional varience. For instance bigs by their very nature typically rely on guards to help create for them while perimiter players find it easier to create their own shot. This is reversed defensively where Bigs typically cover for the mistakes of perimiter players. So lebron has a team built around him where he Drives/facilitates while Kyrie primarily drives and both have lots of space since they are surrounded by shooters.

Conversly Boogie played this season in Sacramento and New Orleans. Neither team has more then passable guard play. That inherently puts Boogie at a disagvantage in a direct comparison to Lebron.

Now Lebron is better then Boogie. However its pretty close and they definitely belong in the same sentance.

This probably isn't the argument you want to double down on

 

[jdstorm]

This probably isn't the argument you want to double down on

Why? What is the compelling counter arguement?

I am more then happy to go where the evidence leads.

 

[Boogs31]

It's to recognize the player who had the most outstanding season in the NBA that year. No more, no less.

I disagree. The Value in most valuable player implies that your performance is very important to your teams success. Kevin Durant could have scored 40 points a game and been the most outstanding player, but his value to the Warriors in the regular season wouldn't be that high because their current roster won 73 games without him last year. When he was injured at the end of the year they won like 13 straight games.

I think most valuable means you had a great season for a team that needed you to have a great season to be successful. If Westbrook or Harden were replaced by an average player at their position on their respective teams, those teams would be in the lottery. That's why those two guys are my top 2 choices.

If LeBron were replaced by an average small forward, the Cavs would still win 40+ games with Kyrie and Love. If one of Curry or Durant were replaced by an average player at their respective positions, the Warriors would still win 60+ games.

 

[Servbot24]

Reaction thread? Reaction thread.

Is there such a thing as a non-reaction thread?

I disagree. The Value in most valuable player implies that your performance is very important to your teams success. Kevin Durant could have scored 40 points a game and been the most outstanding player, but his value to the Warriors in the regular season wouldn't be that high because their current roster won 73 games without him last year. When he was injured at the end of the year they won like 13 straight games.

I think most valuable means you had a great season for a team that needed you to have a great season to be successful. If Westbrook or Harden were replaced by an average player at their position on their respective teams, those teams would be in the lottery. That's why those two guys are my top 2 choices.

If LeBron were replaced by an average small forward, the Cavs would still win 40+ games with Kyrie and Love. If one of Curry or Durant were replaced by an average player at their respective positions, the Warriors would still win 60+ games.

That definition makes the award pointless. Put Javale McGee on a team full of highschoolers and he becomes by far the most valuable player on the team. Javale McGee is your MVP in that scenario even though LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi and Westbrook are having great seasons on their teams that are actually good.

 

[Boogs31]

Why? What is the compelling counter arguement?

I am more then happy to go where the evidence leads.

How about the fact that LeBron as a small forward shot 54.8% from the field and had an effective field goal percentage of 59.4?

Boogie as a center shot 45.2% from the field and had an effective field goal percentage of 51.

LeBron is at least 8% more efficient. Which is a lot.

And you can't honestly compare 4.6 assists that Boogie gets to LeBron's 8.7. LeBron is ranked 6th in the league in that category and Boogie isn't even in the top 35.

Whereas with your rebounding category Boogie is ranked 9th and LeBron 17th. Which is a close enough gap to actually compare them, considering LeBron plays Small Forward and defends perimeter players.

And I haven't even gotten into the intangibles like leadership and locker room presence that are some of Boogies worst qualities.

 

[Cagey]

I disagree. The Value in most valuable player implies that your performance is very important to your teams success. Kevin Durant could have scored 40 points a game and been the most outstanding player, but his value to the Warriors in the regular season wouldn't be that high because their current roster won 73 games without him last year. When he was injured at the end of the year they won like 13 straight games.

I think most valuable means you had a great season for a team that needed you to have a great season to be successful. If Westbrook or Harden were replaced by an average player at their position on their respective teams, those teams would be in the lottery. That's why those two guys are my top 2 choices.

If LeBron were replaced by an average small forward, the Cavs would still win 40+ games with Kyrie and Love. If one of Curry or Durant were replaced by an average player at their respective positions, the Warriors would still win 60+ games.

Have you seen the Cavs record without LeBron in this era? It's like 5-20.

Kyrie and Love are vastly overrated as superstars. LeBron is the Cavs.

 

[Boogs31]

That definition makes the award pointless. Put Javale McGee on a team full of highschoolers and he becomes by far the most valuable player on the team. Javale McGee is your MVP in that scenario even though LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi and Westbrook are having great seasons on their teams that are actually good.

Yes, Javale McGee would be the best player on that so called team, but they would be atrocious. I never said winning didn't matter. It does. I value Harden's season over Westbrook's because the Rockets won 8 more games.

To me it's a combination of your team needing your talent to succeed, and then actually succeeding.

 

[Boogs31]

Have you seen the Cavs record without LeBron in this era? It's like 5-20.

Kyrie and Love are vastly overrated as superstars. LeBron is the Cavs.

Well when any team is constructed around a specific player, they are going to struggle without said player. If the Cavs had an average replacement for LeBron at the start of training camp, and the coaching staff had an opportunity to structure a team around Kyrie and Love, they would be fine. And I never said the Cavs would be amazing with Love and Irving as their best players, but they certainly could have won 40+ games. Love has already shown he could lead a team to around 40 wins like 5 years ago.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

He doesn't care about MVP anymore. Dude sleepwalks through the season and then rips his shirt off, revealing the red "S" underneath in the playoffs.

He's the best player in the league, but only when he feels like it. Which is basically mid-April through early June.

 

[Cagey]

Well when any team is constructed around a specific player, they are going to struggle without said player. If the Cavs had an average replacement for LeBron at the start of training camp, and the coaching staff had an opportunity to structure a team around Kyrie and Love, they would be fine. And I never said the Cavs would be amazing with Love and Irving as their best players, but they certainly could have won 40+ games. Love has already shown he could lead a team to around 40 wins like 5 years ago.

I think those two would up baller stats on a 35 win defense-deficient disappointment if you replace the best player on the planet with a league average SF.

Replace either one of them with an average player and LeBron is still in Game 6-7 of the Finals.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Is there such a thing as a non-reaction thread?

Yeah, there are several threads on the forum that aren't "something just happened" threads.

 

[mjp2417]

Why? What is the compelling counter arguement?

I am more then happy to go where the evidence leads.

You seem to value regular season win shares as a determining stat. Look at LeBron's win shares this year. Look at Cousins' win shares this year. They're not even close. And this is measuring the part of the season that LeBron coasts through, while it is literally all Cousins' has ever had because he has never even made it to the playoffs. I don't know what to tell you here. Like, dude is one the three greatest players in NBA history playing arguably the best basketball of his career at this very moment for a team that is about to sweep into the Finals while he is putting up a stat line of 32.8/9.8/9.0/3.0/2.0 on like 66+% TS. And this what last year looked like:

DeMarcus Cousins, meanwhile, has never made the NBA playoffs.

 

[RedAssedApe]

not shocking. he hasn't been in the conversation

the talk all year has pretty much been harden, westbrook, and kawaii and those are the three who got nominated in the end

 

[watdaeff4]

I'm a child of the 80's and was completely locked into the NBA in the 90's. Lebron is better than Jordan.

42 years old here and would absolutely take Lebron over Jordan at any point in his career.

This whole mantra of Jordan being untouchable and incomparable is silly and is a remnant of Nike and Stern shoving their biggest star down our throats after the Bird/Magic era.

Jordan was great. Absolutely. But for all this talk of his Finals record being the deciding factor, just remember he won all 6 with another player that was named to the all-50 team and 3 with Rodman who was the single greatest complimentary piece that could have gone with Jordan and Pippen. Grant on the first three-peat was a damn fine complement as well.

To put in perspective, when Jordan went to play baseball, the remaining members of the first three-peat came one play away from the Conference finals. When Lebron left the Cavs they became a dumpster fire. Jordan had much better teams around him than Lebron ever had.

 

[Boogs31]

I think those two would up baller stats on a 35 win defense-deficient disappointment if you replace the best player on the planet with a league average SF.

Replace either one of them with an average player and LeBron is still in Game 6-7 of the Finals.

I don't disagree with your comment about the playoffs. LeBron is a beast in the postseason and is THE reason the Cavs are making the finals every year.

What I disagree with is REGULAR SEASON LeBron being the difference between 51 and 35 wins. He coasts during the season and was a big part of why the Cavs defense was so bad during portions of the year.

And the Cavs with like Wilson Chandler instead of LeBron and a roster built around Kyrie and Love could at least make the playoffs in the weak eastern conference. And I agree with you that a Love Irving led team wouldn't be good defensively, but they could outscore teams at least every other game. That's exactly what Portland did this year to 41 wins.

 

[Boogs31]

Jordan had much better teams around him than Lebron ever had.

This is an absolute joke. You mentioned Horace Grant as the Bulls 3rd best player in their first three peat. HORACE GRANT. The dude was a good role player but let's stop with the superlatives. Chris Bosh was the Heat's 3rd best player. Bosh was top 10 in the league. Bosh vs Grant is not even a discussion.

And you mentioned that Jordan had a member of the NBA's 50 greatest players on his team in Pippen. Dwayne Wade, if he retired tomorrow, would be one of the 50 greatest players ever and you could make a case he'd be above Pippen. Wade won a title in 06 as the Heat's best player.

And your argument for the 2nd three peat team with Rodman is also flawed. Rodman was passed his prime by the time he played for Chicago. He was 34, 35, and 36 during Chicago's second three peat. Yes, he was still the league's best rebounder, but his defense and athleticism had taken a hit, and he was an offensive liability his whole career. Kevin Love is not only one of the leagues best rebounders, he's also one of the best offensive bigs in the game today. And he's also smack dab in his prime.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

42 years old here and would absolutely take Lebron over Jordan at any point in his career....

We're the same age, and saw a lot of the same ball, I'm sure, but I disagree- and I hated Michael's guts.

Jordan was on better teams, no doubt- but the Bulls also had to deal with stiffer competition just to get out of the East in most of those years than Lebron has.

But I'll say this- it's a real argument now. What Lebron did last year was stupid. And he's doing it again. If he performs like that against GS, especially if they beat them again, it's going to be hard for me to stay on this side of the fence.

 

[watdaeff4]

This is an absolute joke. You mentioned Horace Grant as the Bulls 3rd best player in their first three peat. HORACE GRANT. The dude was a good role player but let's stop with the superlatives. Chris Bosh was the Heat's 3rd best player. Bosh was top 10 in the league. Bosh vs Grant is not even a discussion.

And you mentioned that Jordan had a member of the NBA's 50 greatest players on his team in Pippen. Dwayne Wade, if he retired tomorrow, would be one of the 50 greatest players ever and you could make a case he'd be above Pippen. Wade won a title in 06 as the Heat's best player.

And your argument for the 2nd three peat team with Rodman is also flawed. Rodman was passed his prime by the time he played for Chicago. He was 34, 35, and 36 during Chicago's second three peat. Yes, he was still the league's best rebounder, but his defense and athleticism had taken a hit, and he was an offensive liability his whole career. Kevin Love is not only one of the leagues best rebounders, he's also one of the best offensive bigs in the game today. And he's also smack dab in his prime.

How did the Jordan-less Bulls do when he went to play baseball if they were so bad? Way to snip out just one part of my post.

Also Wade was physically broke the last year they were together.

To try to act like James played on better teams than Jordan is just ridiculous.

We're the same age, and saw a lot of the same ball, I'm sure, but I disagree- and I hated Michael's guts.

Jordan was on better teams, no doubt- but the Bulls also had to deal with stiffer competition just to get out of the East in most of those years than Lebron has.

But I'll say this- it's a real argument now. What Lebron did last year was stupid. And he's doing it again. If he performs like that against GS, especially if they beat them again, it's going to be hard for me to stay on this side of the fence.

It's all good. I agree to disagree. I agree it should be considered a real discussion now and not just waved off like so many Jordan fans do.

My biggest point in my posts is that many Jordan fans like to use the Finals records as the end-all/be-all deciding point between the two and that is just flawed on so many different levels

 

[Boogs31]

How did the Jordan-less Bulls do when he went to play baseball if they were so bad? Way to snip out just one part of my post.

I snipped out the section I was arguing against. I feel like I mentioned most of your points in what I said.

And they made the second round of the playoffs. You don't think the 2010-11 Miami Heat could have made the second round of the playoffs with Wade and Bosh? They won 47 games in 2009-10 with just Wade. I think they would have made the conference finals.

 

[airjoca]

Swap prime Jordan with prime LeBron into the other guy's era and team.

LeBron would take a big hit to his numbers and impact in a much more physical and competitive league.

Jordan's numbers would explode in this soft and uncompetitive league.

MJ is and will remain the GOAT regardless of what LeBron does.

 

[watdaeff4]

I snipped out the section I was arguing against. I feel like I mentioned most of your points in what I said.

And they made the second round of the playoffs. You don't think the 2010-11 Miami Heat could have made the second round of the playoffs with Wade and Bosh? They won 47 games in 2009-10 with just Wade.

I added some more.

my posts are also speaking over the entire careers not just the 2011 season.

I'll say it again if you truly think that...as a whole and not isolated seasons here and there....Jordan played on worse teams than James over his career, then let's just leave it at we agree to disagree as there will be nothing that can be done for you to understand

Swap prime Jordan with prime LeBron into the other guy's era and team.

LeBron would take a big hit to his numbers and impact in a much more physical and competitive league.

Jordan's numbers would explode in this soft and uncompetitive league.

MJ is and will remain the GOAT regardless of what LeBron does.

Lol okay.

Your last sentence sums it up. Nothing will ever change your opinion.

I mean if you want to get into the way the league changed then We need to bring Wilt into the convo as the league instituted rule changes to minimize and negate his dominance while with Jordan it institute rule changes to maximize and propagate his dominance. Wilt = GOAT

 

[airjoca]

Lol okay.

Your last sentence sums it up. Nothing will ever change your opinion.

I mean if you want to get into the way the league changed then We need to bring Wilt into the convo as the league instituted rule changes to minimize and negate his dominance while with Jordan it institute rule changes to maximize and propagate his dominance. Wilt = GOAT

Wilt didn't have much competition outside of Bill Russell.

And I'll never change my mind because I've seen both players in their prime. Jordan is the better player. Period.

 

[watdaeff4]

Wilt didn't have much competition outside of Bill Russell.

And I'll never change my mind because I've seen both players in their prime. Jordan is the better player. Period.

Lol

NameandAvatarquoteneeded

 

[jdstorm]

How about the fact that LeBron as a small forward shot 54.8% from the field and had an effective field goal percentage of 59.4?

Boogie as a center shot 45.2% from the field and had an effective field goal percentage of 51.

LeBron is at least 8% more efficient. Which is a lot.

And you can't honestly compare 4.6 assists that Boogie gets to LeBron's 8.7. LeBron is ranked 6th in the league in that category and Boogie isn't even in the top 35.

Whereas with your rebounding category Boogie is ranked 9th and LeBron 17th. Which is a close enough gap to actually compare them, considering LeBron plays Small Forward and defends perimeter players.

And I haven't even gotten into the intangibles like leadership and locker room presence that are some of Boogies worst qualities.

Those differences are largely a function of other players effects on the game. Bigs need PGs to create for them. Thats not a huge deal its basketball 101. Sacramento's perimiter creators this season were nothing to write home about. Just look a JaVale Mcgee's efficiency numbers in Golden State. Those efficiency numbers are largely a byproduct of others contributions. Boogie also saw an increase in his shooting numbers when he relocated to New Orleans.

Yet despite this Cousins had the 3rd best Assist% in the NBA among players 6'10 or taller according to NBA.com

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanc...6-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&Height=GT 6-10

You seem to value regular season win shares as a determining stat. Look at LeBron's win shares this year. Look at Cousins' win shares this year. They're not even close. And this is measuring the part of the season that LeBron coasts through, while it is literally all Cousins' has ever had because he has never even made it to the playoffs. I don't know what to tell you here. Like, dude is one the three greatest players in NBA history playing arguably the best basketball of his career at this very moment for a team that is about to sweep into the Finals while he is putting up a stat line of 32.8/9.8/9.0/3.0/2.0 on like 66+% TS. And this what last year looked like:

DeMarcus Cousins, meanwhile, has never made the NBA playoffs.

I'm not particularly enamoured with WS. It was just a simple stat that easily corroborated my point. Win Shares is nowhere near perfect and like most catch all advanced metrics is bias against good players on bad teams, but thats another discussion.

Why is Lebron coasting an arguement in his favor? Dude is ageing and declining. Hes still fantastic but he cant bring it every night. So he doesnt. He still brings it enough that he makes a large impact. Im not saying Lebron sucks. Just that he isnt a top 3 guy.

The Lebron being not a top 3 guy was in comparison to Kawhi, Westbrook and Harden. Although you could probably throw in Durant and Curry. Boogie is closer to a top 10 guy. As for the "playoffs" arguement. Teams make the playoffs, not individuals.

Lebron is less reliant on his teammates then Boogie as a perimiter player, but both still need 4+ other guys to win games.

 

[Westlo]

Wilt didn't have much competition outside of Bill Russell

lmao

Wilt would've dominated in any era period

 

[Boogs31]

Also Wade was physically broke the last year they were together.

I don't disagree. The 2013-14 Heat weren't that good. Not only because of Wade's injuries but because the likes of Allen, Battier and Miller had gotten too old. They got destroyed in the Finals that year which sort of confirms that.

But I can make the argument that the 90-91 Bulls were not that good either. Pippen did not peak until the 92-93 season and wasn't even a top 10 player in the league yet. And again Horace Grant in the early 90's is not even in the same stratosphere as the likes of Bosh or Love. And yet Jordan won the title with that group.

To try to act like James played on better teams than Jordan is just ridiculous.

James in his 4 seasons in Miami, had Wade (top 5 in 2010-11, top 5 in 2011-12, top 10 in 2012-13, top 20 in 2013-14), Bosh (top 10 in 2010-11, top 10 in 2011-12, top 20 in 2012-13, top 20 in 2013-14.

James in his three years in Cleveland has had multiple top 20 players in Kyrie and Love and a wealth of role players due to the owner committing financially to the largest salaried team in NBA history.

Jordan's last 6 full seasons with the Bulls. Pippen (top 15 in 90-91, top 10 in 91-92, top 5 in 92-93, top 5 in 95-96, top 5 in 96-97, top 10 in 97-98. Horace Grant (not eligible for any top 25 list at any point in his career). Rodman (top 15 95-96, top 20 96-97, top 20 97-98).

Let's also not forget that the Bulls bench during those years were pretty poor. Whereas LeBron has consistently had pretty great bench units on both the Heat and the Cavs.

 

[jman2050]

Swap prime Jordan with prime LeBron into the other guy's era and team.

LeBron would take a big hit to his numbers and impact in a much more physical and competitive league.

Jordan's numbers would explode in this soft and uncompetitive league.

MJ is and will remain the GOAT regardless of what LeBron does.

Lebron in the 90s would iso undersized defenders on every possession and laugh his way to the basket every time because of illegal defense rules. It would be a slaughter. It'd look kind of like what Lebron is doing to the Celtics right now in fact, except worse.

Jordan would thrive in today's game for sure, he has the talent and IQ to adjust, but the idea that Lebron would be slowed down and stymied by 90s defense is hilariously naive.

 

[watdaeff4]

I don't disagree. The 2013-14 Heat weren't that good. Not only because of Wade's injuries but because the likes of Allen, Battier and Miller had gotten too old.

But I can make the argument that the 90-91 Bulls were not that good either. Pippen did not peak until the 92-93 season and wasn't even a top 15 player in the league yet. And again Horace Grant in the early 90's is not even in the same stratosphere as the likes of Bosh or Love.



James in his first 4 seasons in Miami had Wade (top 5 in 2010-11, top 5 in 2011-12, top 10 in 2012-13, top 20 in 2013-14), Bosh (top 10 in 2010-11, top 10 in 2011-12, top 20 in 2012-13, top 20 in 2013-14.

James in his three years in Cleveland has had multiple top 20 players in Kyrie and Love and a wealth of role players due to the owner committing financially to the largest salaried team in NBA history.

Jordan's last 6 full seasons with the Bulls. Pippen (top 20 in 90-91, top 10 in 91-92, top 5 in 92-93, top 5 in 95-96, top 5 in 96-97, top 10 in 97-98. Horace Grant (not eligible for any top 25 list at any point in his career). Rodman (top 15 95-96, top 20 96-97, top 20 97-98).

Let's also not forget that the Bulls bench during those years were pretty poor. Whereas LeBron has consistently had pretty great bench units on both the Heat and the Cavs.

I'm a little confused by your points.

For example in the first part of your post you state that by 92-93 Pippen wasn't a top-15 player yet, then in the second part you have him top 10 in 91-92 and top 5 in 92-93?????

Also you admit the 2014 Heat weren't good outside Lebron yet have Wade and Bosh as top 20 players.....

Just some examples.

And btw Grant and Rodman weren't all-great players they were however great complements (the verbiage I used originally) to a team that had two of the top 50 players of all time.

And sorry Pippen >> Wade

Also, at zero point was Wade a top 5 player when Lebron was there. Zero

And frankly I would disagree on your assessment of Bosh. Not that this is the end-all/be-all but take a look at how many All-NBA teams the guy made over his entire career. Someone as dominant as you make him out to be would likely have more than just one Second team appearance

 

[jman2050]

Those differences are largely a function of other players effects on the game. Bigs need PGs to create for them. Thats not a huge deal its basketball 101. Sacramento's perimiter creators this season were nothing to write home about. Just look a JaVale Mcgee's efficiency numbers in Golden State. Those efficiency numbers are largely a byproduct of others contributions. Boogie also saw an increase in his shooting numbers when he relocated to New Orleans.

Yet despite this Cousins had the 3rd best Assist% in the NBA among players 6'10 or taller according to NBA.com

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanc...6-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&Height=GT 6-10



I'm not particularly enamoured with WS. It was just a simple stat that easily corroborated my point. Win Shares is nowhere near perfect and like most catch all advanced metrics is bias against good players on bad teams, but thats another discussion.

Why is Lebron coasting an arguement in his favor? Dude is ageing and declining. Hes still fantastic but he cant bring it every night. So he doesnt. He still brings it enough that he makes a large impact. Im not saying Lebron sucks. Just that he isnt a top 3 guy.

The Lebron being not a top 3 guy was in comparison to Kawhi, Westbrook and Harden. Although you could probably throw in Durant and Curry. Boogie is closer to a top 10 guy. As for the "playoffs" arguement. Teams make the playoffs, not individuals.

Lebron is less reliant on his teammates then Boogie as a perimiter player, but both still need 4+ other guys to win games.

You're holding Lebron's coasting against him because you are under the mistaken impression that the regular season matters or that NBA players are judged primarily by their consistency.

This is simply not the case. Lebron doesn't need to bring out his A game for 82 games, so he doesn't. Maybe players like Westbrook or Harden should learn from him.

 

[Boogs31]

my posts are also speaking over the entire careers not just the 2011 season.

You specifically referenced the 93-94 Chicago Bulls team that made the second round of the playoffs. You can't have it both ways. I referenced the 2010-11 Heat specifically because you mentioned that specific Bulls team.

 

[watdaeff4]

You specifically referenced the 93-94 Chicago Bulls team that made the second round of the playoffs. You can't have it both ways. I referenced the 2010-11 Heat specifically because you mentioned that specific Bulls team.

That's fair point. I concede. My mistake on that

 

[hipbabboom]

Good! I've never irrationally hated someone so much! Feels good man.

 

[Boogs31]

I'm a little confused by your points.

For example in the first part of your post you state that by 92-93 Pippen wasn't a top-15 player yet, then in the second part you have him top 10 in 91-92 and top 5 in 92-93?????

I said Pippen in 90-91 wasn't a top 10 player yet. I originally said 15 and edited it. He obviously was getting better each season so in 91-92 he was top 10 and by 92-93 he was top 5.

Also you admit the 2014 Heat weren't good outside Lebron yet have Wade and Bosh as top 20 players.....

That 2013-14 Heat team was the worst of the 4 LeBron played on. And Bosh and Wade were still top 20 guys but not top 10 like in previous seasons. And I said their role players got worse because of old age.

And btw Grant and Rodman weren't all-great players they were however great complements (the verbiage I used originally) to a team that had two of the top 50 players of all time.

Chris Bosh was a great player, and those Heat teams had the likes of Bosh, Ray Allen and Shane Battier as great complements to a team that had two of the top 50 players of all time.

And sorry Pippen >> Wade

Agree to disagree. Wade is the 4th best shooting guard of all time behind Michael, Kobe, and West.

 

[highrider]

LeBron is playing for a championship. I don't think he cares about mvp stuff tbh.

 

[mjp2417]

Why is Lebron coasting an arguement in his favor? Dude is ageing and declining. Hes still fantastic but he cant bring it every night. So he doesnt. He still brings it enough that he makes a large impact. Im not saying Lebron sucks. Just that he isnt a top 3 guy.

The Lebron being not a top 3 guy was in comparison to Kawhi, Westbrook and Harden. Although you could probably throw in Durant and Curry. Boogie is closer to a top 10 guy. As for the "playoffs" arguement. Teams make the playoffs, not individuals.

Coasting is an argument in his favor because we are trying not to conflate the question of who is the regular season MVP (1.Westbrook 2.Harden 3.Kawhi 4.LeBron 5.Curry) with who is the best player in the NBA (1.LeBron 2-4.Kawhi/Curry/Durant in any order 5.Harden 6.Westbrook), because that is ultimately determined in the playoffs when guys are actually competing for a championship. These are distinct things. That is the entire point of the argument. If you genuinely believe that Russell Westbrook is a better basketball player than LeBron James after watching any playoffs series over the last few years, but especially this year, then I simply don't know what to tell you.

 

[watdaeff4]

I said Pippen in 90-91 wasn't a top 10 player yet. I originally said 15 and edited it. He obviously was getting better each season so in 91-92 he was top 10 and by 92-93 he was top 5.

I think I also misinterpreted your post

That 2013-14 Heat team was the worst of the 4 LeBron played on. And Bosh and Wade were still top 20 guys but not top 10 like in previous seasons. And I said their role players got worse because of old age.

Agree to disagree with your assessment on Bosh and Wade. Wade was a shell by the 2014 season

Chris Bosh was a great player, and those Heat teams had the likes of Ray Allen and Shane Battier as great complements to a team that had two of the top 50 players of all time.

agree with your assessment of Allen and Battier but that's about it and if you are trying to act like 80 yo Allen and Battier are better (or even comparable) to Grant or Rodman then.....we will agree to disagree

Agree to disagree. Wade is the 4th best shooting guard of all time behind Michael, Kobe, and West.

I agree with your ranking of Wade all-time on that list of shooting guardsbut....
You are missing one big difference.

Jordan got to play with Pippen in his prime all those years while James never got to play with Wade during his peak and only when Wade was in his downspin

 

[Boogs31]

Agree to disagree with your assessment on Bosh and Wade. Wade was a shell by the 2014 season

Wade shot 54.5% from the field in 2013-14 and averaged 19 a game. When he was on the floor he was still a really good player. It was his durability that was the problem.

And Bosh in 2013-14 had lost a bit of athleticism that hurt him on the glass but he was still a very mobile defensive big, one of the best mid range shooters in the league, and he had developed a respectable three point shot. He also was still capable of being an offensive option with his face up game but the Heat didn't use it.

agree with your assessment of Allen and Battier but that's about it

Bosh wasn't a great complement? I'd rather have Bosh and one of Allen or Battier than one of Grant or Rodman and one of Steve Kerr or John Paxson.

I agree with your ranking of Wade all-time on that list of shooting guardsbut....
You are missing one big difference.

Jordan got to play with Pippen in his prime all those years while James never got to play with Wade during his peak and only when Wade was in his downspin

I think you're letting that 2013-14 season of Wade cloud the bigger picture. Wade was still very much in his prime during LeBron's first two years in Miami and was awfully close to his prime in his third year.

You also aren't factoring in that Jordan played with Pippen during Pippen's first three years in the league from 87-88 thru the 89-90 season when he was still just a promising prospect. Jordan also missed out on a year and a half of Pippen's prime while he went to play dumb baseball.

 

[Boogs31]

agree with your assessment of Allen and Battier but that's about it and if you are trying to act like 80 yo Allen and Battier are better (or even comparable) to Grant or Rodman then.....we will agree to disagree

Bosh was the Heat's third best player. Grant and Rodman were the Bulls third best player. I am very much comparing them. Allen and Battier would be compared to the likes of Steve Kerr and Tony Kukoc. I'd rather have all of the Heat complementary talent to that of what the Bulls had.

 

[watdaeff4]

Wade shot 54.5% from the field in 2013-14 and averaged 19 a game. When he was on the floor he was still a really good player. It was his durability that was the problem.

And Bosh in 2013-14 had lost a bit of athleticism that hurt him on the glass but he was still a very mobile defensive big, one of the best mid range shooters in the league, and he had developed a respectable three point shot. He also was still capable of being an offensive option with his face up game but the Heat didn't use it.

I just disagree they were still top 20 players as you have them listed. Not that they were garbage.

Bosh wasn't a great complement? I'd rather have Bosh and one of Allen or Battier than one of Grant or Rodman and one of Steve Kerr or John Paxon.

you said he was a great player and that I would disagree with

I think you're letting that 2013-14 season of Wade cloud the bigger picture. Wade was still very much in his prime during LeBron's first two years in Miami and was awfully close to his prime in his third year.

no he wasn't

You also aren't factoring in that Jordan played with Pippen during Pippen's first three years in the league from 87-88 thru the 89-90 season when he was still a promising prospect. Jordan also missed out on a year and a half of Pippen's while he went to play dumb baseball.

as a whole the Pippen that Jordan got to play with was heads above better than the Wade that James played with. To say different is "an absolute joke" as you put it previously

And our back and forth is actually solidifying my initial point. That's is ridiculous when (some) Jordan fans use the Finals records as an end-all/be-all as who is better between James and Jordan. This broke down to comparing an all-50 team player in his prime versus an all-50 team player who was a shell of his prime or Kerr vs. geriatric Allen and not between Jordan and James themselves

 

[Boogs31]

no he wasn't

I'm glad you can just say, "No he wasn't", and that's somehow supposed to be some validation for your opinions.

Wade led the 2009-10 Miami Heat to 47 wins with Udonis Haslem as the teams 2nd best player. You couldn't name 10 guys in the history of the NBA that could have pulled that off.

LeBron came that next season. Wade was 29 years old during the 2010-11 season. He averaged 25 points a game, 6+ rebounds as a shooting guard and nearly 5 assists. Was that season his absolute best year? No, but are we more defining your prime as your single best season and nothing more? If you agree that he's one of the top 4 shooting guards off all time, then it's kind of ridiculous to say he wasn't in his prime in his late 20's.

 

[Boogs31]

you said he was a great player and that I would disagree with

Fair enough but you also admitted that neither Grant nor Rodman were great. So the question you need to answer is this..

Would you rather have the trio of Rodman, Kerr and Kukoc surrounding your two top 50 players of all time, or Bosh, Allen and Battier surrounding your two top 50 players of all time?