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LTTP FFVIII: The Aesthetic Fore-bearer to FFXV
- Thread starter ScherzoPrime
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jongkookie
Member
Yep, FF8 is the GOAT FF.
Fisherman's Horizon is also the GOAT piece of video game music. I honestly don't think I've ever encountered another piece of music in a game that literally made me want to stay there instead of progressing through the story.
And yeah one of the reasons why I'm excited for FFXV is coz it seems like it's a spiritual sequel to FF8.
Fisherman's Horizon is also the GOAT piece of video game music. I honestly don't think I've ever encountered another piece of music in a game that literally made me want to stay there instead of progressing through the story.
And yeah one of the reasons why I'm excited for FFXV is coz it seems like it's a spiritual sequel to FF8.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
I like the customization, but the story just can never keep my attention. I played it in 1999 and couldn't get through it. Played it again in 2012 or so and still couldn't get through it. It's too all over the place for me. The card game though, mmph.
It's my favorite FF and I love the world. But I also quite like the characters. Sure there isn't a lot of info for Zell, Selphie, Irvine and Quistis, but I still like them and how the whole group interacts. As for Squall, Rinoa an Laguna, there's a lot of interesting details. Squall is actually the main FF guy I can relate the most too, being a teenager myself when I first played it. Love all of it!
artsi
Member
VIII is so full of calming, "good feeling" music.
Ami
Balamb Garden
Breezy
Julia
Fragments of Memories
And others. Just great.
VII remake will be epic, but I actually wanted VIII...
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It doesn't particularly matter if it's 30 years or 100. I'd still call the Shinra phenomenon "recent." The outline of the world is traditional fantasy, with corporatism only recently arrived to change things forever.
It is a kind of generic fantasy world, but that's what Final Fantasy was I-V (I agree VI has nuanced world-building and I'm going to exclude it from this discussion for clarity). If you go back and play the bulk of the Famicom and Super Famicom games as I have been recently, I think the traditional towns in VII "read" completely differently. They're traditional jRPG towns. They're classically Final Fantasy (what that would have meant to the old-school audience in 1997). And they're about to get fucked by capitalism and swept away forever.
I think you're totally right in the end. VII's world was not thought about as cohesively as later games. But at that point in time it wasn't even particularly necessarily, because just showing "the end (or evolution) of the traditional jRPG world" was enough of a unique setting. And that's what I think VII is, when you play it in context after really digesting I-VI. It's the apocalypse of the old Final Fantasy.
VIII seems to me to be the first one where they said "we've let the traditional jRPG setting evolve and put it to bed... Now we actually have to come up with a totally original fantasy world". And that's what the FF series has become since. More of an anthology of original from-the-ground-up worlds rather than a mere slow evolution of the world-style started in FF1.
Neoleo2143
Member
FF8 and "grounded". Talk about a half step. It's probably something FFXV will suffer from too.
I have to disagree on Squall. I rather like his apathy because it makes sense. He's a guy who is a jerk because he wants to stay in his shell from the world. His backstory supports this at least until we get to the magic portion of a Seed enrollment (probably a good reason why people have issues with the characters in this game)
What sucks is that if you don't make the right dialogue choices, you can miss out on parts of his character and this is BAD. BAD.
None of the cast are entirely "realistic" but there's a good reason for why they act the way they do and I appreciate that.
FF8's narrative as a whole is absurd though, thoroughly absurd outside the elements connected to the characters. If it were just about the Orphanage from the beginning, I could appreciate it more. It's by far the strongest element of the narrative.
Gameplay wise, we have the absolute extreme of freedom vs structure (toward freedom) in combat and this carries numerous issues for consistency in engaging gameplay.
Overall, FF8 was a mash of interesting ideas not given enough attention. I feel like more games need "empathy" as a core element, which FF8's characters are pretty solid at establishing especially in tandem with their backstories. Grounded elements mixed with the "rule of cool" aren't too amazing for narrative in my book and I can look past that on occasion, but there is stuff to like here and critique here all the same.
I have to disagree on Squall. I rather like his apathy because it makes sense. He's a guy who is a jerk because he wants to stay in his shell from the world. His backstory supports this at least until we get to the magic portion of a Seed enrollment (probably a good reason why people have issues with the characters in this game)
What sucks is that if you don't make the right dialogue choices, you can miss out on parts of his character and this is BAD. BAD.
None of the cast are entirely "realistic" but there's a good reason for why they act the way they do and I appreciate that.
FF8's narrative as a whole is absurd though, thoroughly absurd outside the elements connected to the characters. If it were just about the Orphanage from the beginning, I could appreciate it more. It's by far the strongest element of the narrative.
Gameplay wise, we have the absolute extreme of freedom vs structure (toward freedom) in combat and this carries numerous issues for consistency in engaging gameplay.
Overall, FF8 was a mash of interesting ideas not given enough attention. I feel like more games need "empathy" as a core element, which FF8's characters are pretty solid at establishing especially in tandem with their backstories. Grounded elements mixed with the "rule of cool" aren't too amazing for narrative in my book and I can look past that on occasion, but there is stuff to like here and critique here all the same.
Adam_Vania
Banned
On release VIII seemed like a big step towards trying a more "realistic" style. Final Fantasy was always kind of geared towards old school fantasy. VI and VII represented steps towards incorporating steampunk but were still pretty fantastical, especially w the superdeformed characters. It was a big deal to heave realistically-proportioned characters.
I enjoyed this almost as much as VII but the more realistic approach hurts it in a number of ways, first being the ENEMY VARIETY, which is a huge drop from VII where you would see all kinds of crazy monsters. VIII had far more standard humanoid/soldiers and the monster enemies weren't all that impressive either. Forget drawing magic, just facing hundreds of samey giant crickets and slugs was dull.
Still, the high points are great. The music is FANTASTIC, maybe the best in the series. The school theme is so beautiful. Triple Triad music rules so much, it sounds like T-Rex or Slade or something. Triple Triad itself is a load of fun and super addictive. The characters are pretty entertaining even if the game gets closer than ever before to anime-style melodrama.
I love it. The goth'd out evil queen and her sinister castle and pretty memorable.
And DOOM TRAIN. How can you not love doom train?
I enjoyed this almost as much as VII but the more realistic approach hurts it in a number of ways, first being the ENEMY VARIETY, which is a huge drop from VII where you would see all kinds of crazy monsters. VIII had far more standard humanoid/soldiers and the monster enemies weren't all that impressive either. Forget drawing magic, just facing hundreds of samey giant crickets and slugs was dull.
Still, the high points are great. The music is FANTASTIC, maybe the best in the series. The school theme is so beautiful. Triple Triad music rules so much, it sounds like T-Rex or Slade or something. Triple Triad itself is a load of fun and super addictive. The characters are pretty entertaining even if the game gets closer than ever before to anime-style melodrama.
I love it. The goth'd out evil queen and her sinister castle and pretty memorable.
And DOOM TRAIN. How can you not love doom train?
ScherzoPrime
Member
I just feel it's a bit lazy in all honesty, and that's not a knock on fantasy settings. I love the look and feel and basically everything about IX. And I know the pressures SE must've been under so it's understandable, but I think it's one of the elements of FFVII that really doesn't hold up, and it's something FFVIIR is going to have to grapple with.
ScherzoPrime
Member
HAHAHHAHA QUISTIS YOU DUMBASS
NoctisVsStar
Member
It's my favorite FF as well OP, reminds me a lot of XV.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I feel you're posting from the privilege of hindsight.
There was nothing lazy about VII's setting in its day. It was an insane leap to add modern technology and industry to a JRPG at all. That it still contained classic FF villages around the periphery speaks to its position as the mid-point between old and new. It wasn't time to ditch those traditional settings yet, as it was their farewell moment. The game particularly resonated with people back then, specifically in the way that it looked like a traditional jRPG, now ravaged by technology. It produced a vision of the uncanny.
I might blame familiarity with VII and the blase nature of the VII spin offs for giving the impression that Midgar and Kalm (etc) are supposed to be like one cohesive society. It's more like one new society is eating the other old society.
Regardless, if you don't read VII's setting as a denouement to the worlds of FFI-VI (as newcomer audiences to the remake likely won't), there is still richness in the modernism vs. tradition dichotomy. It's easily reworkable into a mature storyline.
ScherzoPrime
Member
I think you're giving the game too much thematic credit. I don't mean to imply that just getting a 3D game working at all wasn't a colossal undertaking. But I don't think there's a serious concern for describing what a world that runs on mass quantities of electricity actually looks like. I get that you need some pastoral communities to contrast it, but for example Kalm is way too bright and cheery for a mining town directly next to the wastes surrounding Midgar.
I mean, everyone comes into every game with their own set of expectations, so if FFVII did it for you, that's fine. But to me it feels so incredibly half-baked.
artsi
Member
It seems near as the world map is so condensed, but considering this is the whole planet it's really not right next to it.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Anyways my main point is that I think a lot of its rough edges will be smoothed over in the remake. At least that's what I'm hoping they do. I don't think it should be a 1:1 recreation; the types of creative changes they might make to the setting really excite me.
I really like the game, but the writing has always given off a vibe to me that it's really poorly translated (just a step above VII). Maybe the story is just as odd in Japanese, but it just feels weirdly undercooked. If anyone knows both languages and has an opinion on the translation quality I'd like to hear it because whenever I play I get the feeling it could be one of my favourite FF's if the writing was better.
The English writing quality in FFIX, in comparison, feels miles better to me - it's not even close.
The English writing quality in FFIX, in comparison, feels miles better to me - it's not even close.
yeah... i always thought it was weird it took them so long to make another "modern day" final fantasy after FFVIII. especially when you consider how successful FFVII and VIII were.
as for the game I thought it had a lot of great ideas that were mostly undercooked. I personally suspect the game ran into time constraints and a lot of ideas got axed or streamlined, particularly with the story. for example what was the point of Seifer's arc? he was clearly meant to be an important character but just sort of.... disappeared. and what was Laguna's "big relevation" he promised to unload on squall? (pretty obvious what it was, but why do it "off camera". makes no sense)
anyway, i always had a soft spot for the game, and i consider it the last great FF (FFIX while good was more of an homage to FF, i don't really consider it a proper sequel)
as for the game I thought it had a lot of great ideas that were mostly undercooked. I personally suspect the game ran into time constraints and a lot of ideas got axed or streamlined, particularly with the story. for example what was the point of Seifer's arc? he was clearly meant to be an important character but just sort of.... disappeared. and what was Laguna's "big relevation" he promised to unload on squall? (pretty obvious what it was, but why do it "off camera". makes no sense)
anyway, i always had a soft spot for the game, and i consider it the last great FF (FFIX while good was more of an homage to FF, i don't really consider it a proper sequel)
FFVIII is a love it or hate it kinda game. If you know what you're doing with the Junction system you can break the difficulty and breeze through the story, but a lot of people see this as bad game design. I'm with the camp that enjoys the freedom and thinks it's one of the better ways to build characters in a FF game. Graphics for the time and music still today is some of the best. Shame the story and most of the cast was subpar.
ScherzoPrime
Member
HAHAHAH RINOA JUST SHOT A DOG AT A DUDE.
PumpkinPie
Banned
I think FF8 was the first game that really affected me. I suppose I was the right age at the time, and the setting and aesthetic of the game is pretty much ideal for me. Plenty of blue, water, grass and breezy music. As much as people hate Squall's personality, for me I just got it, I was an angry teenager who hated everything too. As for the twist, well that was sheer brilliance, I don't care what anyone else says.
It's also interesting that Chrono Cross shares a similar aesthetic and themes, exploring loneliness. I believe they were made by the same team? Chrono Cross is another game that had a big effect on me.
It's also interesting that Chrono Cross shares a similar aesthetic and themes, exploring loneliness. I believe they were made by the same team? Chrono Cross is another game that had a big effect on me.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Also what exactly do M-Stones do? I've been getting a lot of them but when I went to the Junk Shop it didn't seem like I could do anything with.
What's the importance of cards btw? Can I convert them into spells to junction?
What's the importance of cards btw? Can I convert them into spells to junction?
PumpkinPie
Banned
Collect the cards for your own enjoyment, or refine them into super rare items to build the ultimate weapons.
brandonh83
Banned
VIII has my favorite art direction/aesthetic in any game ever. Except Bloodborne maybe. But they're different things. It's just so unique.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If you think I'm giving it too much thematic credit, I'd ask you to reflect on the fact that:
Midgar is a city literally built on top of traditional villages which people are starting to forget the name of.
Junon is the second example, a military installation again literally built on top of another traditional village.
There's nothing to "read into" it. It's stated right there in the text as a core theme. FFVII is a story about modernism displacing tradition, both in terms of in game storyline and what it meant to the genre in real life. It's the core reason why Avalanche fights in the first place.
I think we might agree about issues of "realism". It's just that I see VII more as being the last of a slow evolution from FF1, so I judge it like that.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Those are interesting ideas, but they're not particularly well presented by the game world. I understand the environmentalist message of the game, I just think they could've built a more engaging world around it.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Fair enough. And believe me, I can put on your hat and get what you're saying. There's a kind of Fallout 3 "why are these two things even next to each other? How would this really work?" element.
But as someone playing the even older games recently, it's like "i know why they wouldn't even be concerned with such things at that time".
I'd say they hadn't made the transition into being an anthology of independant fantasy worlds until VIII (to bring it back to the topic). After that, they'd be more like storytellers really world-building and creating full settings with a cohesive logic. VII was still grafted onto the back of tradition.
Lights and Waves
Member
I would give X-2 a close second place here. I especially like how Yuna had already found peace in knowing that she was at least able to reunite Lenne and Shuyin's spirits, even if it didn't mean she and Tidus would be together. The fayth rewarding Yuna for her dilligence by bringing him back to life makes me happy.
But man, FFVIII has the GOAT love story. I sobbed when
Rinoa was running out of oxygen in space
And the ending of FFVIII.
Rinoa reviving Squall. That final scene during the credits of her pointing up
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
Also the most fashionista FF to date. All point that XV come to take the throne.
Character design is really on point here. I like how restrain but yet still distinctive enough to give everyone a personality. They are clothes that look wearable, except for the two witches of course but that's ok because they are supposed to be over the top.
the_sun_king
Member
Womp, gonna spoiler mark this as I overlooked how far into the game OP was:
I don't know where you're getting the idea that Squall was apathetic; he wasn't really, that was all just a ruse he put up to not allow himself to become emotionally vulnerable/damaged. If you were paying attention to his thought bubbles, you should know he wasn't truly apathetic.
Well OP is still early-ish in the game
JayBabay
Member
It's killing me that you've played so far into so many entries and aren't finishing them. The final dungeon's in each game in terms of design and substance are true tests that culminate the entire experience of the game into that final stand. It's totally worth it and you're nearly there on some of them.
In regards to the topic, I think you made some strong points about the game and I agree that while the characters can seem bland, it goes with the down to earth and mature theme of the game, save for some irrational moments you mention. The soundtrack follows suit as well, setting the tone very well. The fact that you can be so OP early on detracts slightly from the experience. It's hard not take advantage of it when you understand how it can work to your benefit.
In regards to the topic, I think you made some strong points about the game and I agree that while the characters can seem bland, it goes with the down to earth and mature theme of the game, save for some irrational moments you mention. The soundtrack follows suit as well, setting the tone very well. The fact that you can be so OP early on detracts slightly from the experience. It's hard not take advantage of it when you understand how it can work to your benefit.
Look! The Pie!
Member
Man, I know VIII is so flawed, but it has such a huge place in my heart. Arguably the best Uematsu OST. Brilliant setting with just the right mix of fantastical, futuristic and modern-day elements. The best FF protagonist. Triple fucking Triad.
. An attempt at a full-blown love story in a FF game (whether they actually succeeded is up for debate). Excellent character designs. I could go on.
A flying school
VIII is low on my list of favourite Final Fantasies however I will give massive credit to it's endgame from about Esthar onwards. Seeing the
all of these moments were very good for me and the ending one of the best in the franchise.
Just a shame that most of the game was a struggle to play through. Level scaling enemies remove the fun of building your character up, the story initially is just there (Laguna's interludes being the most interesting part of the first two discs), a lot of useful stuff and lore is tied up in text menus (Hi XIII's codex!).
It is indeed beautiful though. I hope XV strikes a better balance between spectacle and gameplay. I'm pretty damn hopeful and optimistic actually.
Here's a great arrangement of The Extreme.
also, check out the Epic Final Fantasy VII Medley Part 1 and Part 2. People rightly called out Fisherman's Horizon as a thing of beauty and the rendition within melts my soul.
EDIT: Those talking about it having the greatest love story are sorta correct. It just wasn't Rinoa and Squall...
interwining of Laguna's story with Squall, the Moon / Lunatic Pandora stuff; time compression; the four-stage final boss after the puzzle castle
Just a shame that most of the game was a struggle to play through. Level scaling enemies remove the fun of building your character up, the story initially is just there (Laguna's interludes being the most interesting part of the first two discs), a lot of useful stuff and lore is tied up in text menus (Hi XIII's codex!).
It is indeed beautiful though. I hope XV strikes a better balance between spectacle and gameplay. I'm pretty damn hopeful and optimistic actually.
Has anyone mentioned they're looking forward to World of Final Fantasy more yet in this thread? I think that's something of a tradition at this point.
Here's a great arrangement of The Extreme.
also, check out the Epic Final Fantasy VII Medley Part 1 and Part 2. People rightly called out Fisherman's Horizon as a thing of beauty and the rendition within melts my soul.
EDIT: Those talking about it having the greatest love story are sorta correct. It just wasn't Rinoa and Squall...
ScherzoPrime
Member
Well I fully intend to beat FFXII when Zodiac Age comes out, and I'll probably beat X sometime this year (though I hope there's some strategy for beating Jecht other than 'gitgud'). It's just the final Boss Rush of IX is too much for me too handle. XIII I could conceivably go back and beat, but I'm pretty apathetic about returning to that game. Is VI on Virtual Console? If not I might break out zsnes again, though at any rate that's a 2017 project at the earliest.
Yeah the soundtrack is really good; I especially like the orchestral arrangements they did for Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec, like this:
https://youtu.be/PfjyrX4B06A?list=PL4C405739924C28E9
Anyways I'll probably do a long-ish post once I beat Disc One, though I'll probably blog a bit as stuff comes up.
The Cards are almighty. You can turn monsters into cards via a certain GF skill, which gives you AP but no XP, which is generally ideal for most of the game. You can also turn the cards into various materials and items via card refinement and then further refine those items into spells you have no business seeing in a loooong while if you played it in the traditional way. 3rd tier elemental spells, Life, Curaga, Meltdown, Pain, Quake, Tornado...
Basically you can have almost end-game tier weapons and spells before you leave for Timber and you can score Squalls ultimate weapon before the end of disc 1.
tldr: Card refinement = Win.
ScherzoPrime
Member
Man, I know she's mesmerizing the crowd and all, but Edea's speech is so fucking dumb. IMO, it'd work much better if Deling introduced her, outlining how "With the power of the Sorceress behind us we will finally crush the vile Estharians!" only for her to take the stage and be something like: "My poor sheep, you who years passed begged for our blood, who then turned your swords against each other, I have returned for you. I forgive you for casting aside your yoke, for following your cruel petty tyrants; I will restore the proper order of things..."
I mean, I know Ultamecia is supposed to be the ultimate Megalomaniac, but I think they would've been better to couch it in terms you could see someone actually rationalizing. Unless her point is to prove Squall's previous point about there being no good and evil wrong; and even if that were the case it's still just kind of dumb.
Alright, I'll make sure to priortize card refinement then,
BTW is there one or two enemies with spells/cards I should look out for? I remember going out of my way to get Mighty Guard, which paid great dividends.
I mean, I know Ultamecia is supposed to be the ultimate Megalomaniac, but I think they would've been better to couch it in terms you could see someone actually rationalizing. Unless her point is to prove Squall's previous point about there being no good and evil wrong; and even if that were the case it's still just kind of dumb.
Alright, I'll make sure to priortize card refinement then,
BTW is there one or two enemies with spells/cards I should look out for? I remember going out of my way to get Mighty Guard, which paid great dividends.
Ultimecia is like that for a reason, granted whether or not you'll agree its a good one I can't say, but her speech makes total sense in character given what she has gone through.
As it stands I won't spoil anything other then to say that Ultimecia is probably the most tragic person in the franchise and the game goes out of its way to prove just how far gone this being is.[
Ugh, it has been years since I've played, so my memory on those is hazy as fuck. The ability to turn monsters into cards is more about effective leveling (as in, low level characters but still plenty of AP to get the GF skills). I personally never used it to get cards for refinement. I always got my cards via hours upon hours of Triple-triad. It helps that the card game is so gorramn addictive.
The manta-ray lookalike, a rather low level card, refines into an item that can be further refined into Meltdown, the only spell you'll ever need to actually cast in order to win anything and everything (drops the enemy physical defence to 0, making stuff like Renzokuken utterly murderous). The card is so common that you'll never go wanting for Meltdowns if you bother to play the card game a bit. Tri-Face, a slightly higher tier, but still utterly average, is refined into Pain, high tier a spell with ass loads of various Junction possibilities for both offense, defense and stat boosting. T-Rexaur cards can be turned into Quakes, a very good physical junction spell. The others I've forgotten, but you'll likely end up with all kinds of cards that you can just sample and experiment with.
Character and Guardian Force cards are generally both the absolutely best cards in the whole game and can be refined into some really broken shit. Laguna's card, especially, is basically a complete "I Win" -button if you choose to refine it and use the resulting items with half a brain.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
The world and its political setting is the thing I enjoyed the most about FF VIII. It's why, despite not being a big fan of the entire game (it's a wonderful game, just personally and subjectively it began to lose me), adore the first 10-20 hours or so.
In contrast, it's also VII's largest flaw for me in otherwise my favorite (or so) FF. Though as you sort of alluded, it's somewhat forgivable for technical reasons, but I felt even FF VI had more believable scope its world and its politics. VI had border stations, ports, numerous towns, camps, different regions, and in general felt fleshed out.
VII felt like it was essentially just Shin-ra Corporation and no other real entity (political, corporate, or otherwise) really existed. Shin-ra was superbly fleshed out with reactors, ports, bases, etc but the game world lacked enough presence of anyone else (or even evidence there previously was before Shin-ra now controlled their territory). I never liked how it essentially just had one city and everything else was just small supportive outskirts. In VI and VIII, you get a much better sense of their being multiple entities with cities, regions, infrastructure, etc.
Combined with the general two main themes of VII's early story -- the nostalgia of being a student in school again and the general theme of learning, getting graded; and the cool military special-ops missions involving infrastructure or logistics -- it's why I adore the first third or so of VIII.
And actually, your main point is sort aligns with why I am interested in FF XV. It's sort of a mix of FF XII and FF VIII. Part of it is just the raw world gameplay and exploration reminds me of XII's, which I love. But you're right about the world and politics. Some of the logistical things like gas stations or having to set up camp, or the infrastructure story elements such as that night infiltration of the army base with the mechs a la Metal Gear.
It reminds me sort of a mix of XII's gameplay but VIII's early world and missions.
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