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[agrajag]

No- medical abortions are done with the consent of the women. This women did not give her consent and was purposely give a different drug to harm to her body.

Your reasoning is flawed. She would give her consent as well if she was committing suicide. The difference is intent. If she consented to an abortion, it would be her intention to abort the fetus, not to kill herself. Likewise, his intent was to abort the fetus, not to kill her.

Was it negligent? Sure. Was it assault? Sure. Did he cause harm to her? Yes. But unless you're arguing that it was his intent to kill her, your argument that he attempted to murder her falls apart.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I disagree it with because implied consent is a terrible thing to do. There are so many reasons why not having aborted before the 24 week doesn't necessarily mean a woman has consented to carry the child to term. Thankfully, I don't live in the United States and it's not an issue here.

Well Roe gave a fetal viability the point where states "have a say", it conveniently gives a medical line-in-the-sand that's not based on religious "out of thin air / because we said so" reason which pro-choicers didn't have an issue with and I don't think many do. I think it's in Canada where there is no gestational limit on abortions - i.e. a woman can have one at any point of the pregnancy for elective reasons.

I also think whether this is a double murder or not should depend on the developmental period of the foetus.

That's one of the anomalies of the law. Fetal homicide are rarely if ever investigated in very early miscarriages, vigorous exercise, bad nutrition, drug abuse etc. Pro-lifers also ignore them - i.e. they don't protest outside IVF clinics even though "babies" are created and destroyed there even though their philosophy of "life from conception" dictates they should. They sometimes try and rationalize it by saying "location counts", "bu-but the intention is to create life" etc. Seems "life from conception" comes with clauses and stipulations to suit the situation.

If the guy who was charged with murder secretly gave her the abortion pill without her knowledge at a very early stage the prosecution would have to prove it wasn't a normal miscarriage that happens for untold amount of reasons and could leave no "body" as the expelled zygote would be very small.

Men can legally force women to have abortions - just as long as it's not deceptive?

He used the wrong words but I think I know what he means.

He can persuade her to have an abortion. Quite legal.

She is free to say no of course.

 

[ElfArmy177]

hahaha, you're godwinning! how fun.

As for the bolded, what human life was lost? A fetus is not a human life until it can survive outside the womb.

Wait what? Isnt that all a matter of opinion? a baby can usually survive at 24 weeks outside of the womb with insane medical equipment and NICU time. A baby at 23 weeks then isnt considered a human life? If your wife lost the baby at 23 weeks you should just toss it in the garbage?

I wish people who didnt have kids of their own would keep to themselves about whats a "human life" when it comes to a fetus.

 

[HiredN00bs]

It's actually a pretty horrendous thing, in my opinion, to abort a healthy, growing child in its mother's womb, regardless of who is doing it. The only reason society even considers allowing it is because a pregnant woman is in a hugely unique situation in which everything is occuring within her body. For the sake of women with legitimate health concerns for themselves and their children, and out of respect to our rights as individuals, abortion is a legal medical option for the woman who takes it. It's an imperfect solution that is very open to abuse, but it may be better to love and support our fellow human beings in the hope they make good decisions than to try and force them to do it with law in this instance, I think.

It should be considered murder for anyone besides the mother to chose to kill a fetus. Is that biased towards mothers? Yes, but women carry the heavier burden, literally.

 

[Imtey]

14 years for something the mother could have done with a trip to the clinic

14 years is too much imo, wasn't murder.

 

[Scrooged]

It's really odd that some people don't consider a human fetus to be a human life. Goes to show how subjective the definitions are in this debate.

 

[HiredN00bs]

It's really odd that some people don't consider a human fetus to be a human life. Goes to show how subjective the definitions are in this debate.

It's something people do to resolve cognitive dissonance. A fetus is a human being, period.

 

[jchap]

14 well deserved years. Hope it ruins his life.

 

[pants]

So he was found guilty of this?

Welden pleaded guilty in September to tampering with a consumer product and conspiracy to commit mail fraud.

Assuming the mail fraud is where the sentence comes from?

 

[YoungHav]

I am pro-Choice. It is her choice, fuck this guy.

Men have a say in the matter when they decide to have sex. After that it is the mother's call 100%. Too irresponsible to use protection? Too bad, the decision ship sails when your swimmers do.

 

[Trey]

14 well deserved years. Hope it ruins his life.

Of that there is no doubt.

 

[Fiktion]

It should be a crime, but I can't see how it's murder.

 

[BajiBoxer]

14 years for something the mother could have done with a trip to the clinic

14 years is too much imo, wasn't murder.

14 years sounds reasonable to me even without calling it murder. She was assaulted, serious bodily harm was caused, the action was premeditated, and her life was irrevocably altered.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It's really odd that some people don't consider a human fetus to be a human life. Goes to show how subjective the definitions are in this debate.

Human life versus human life.
As a society (at least in countries where abortion is legal), not all human lifeforms are - nor should be - granted rights.

Some human beings are perfectly acceptable to kill, completely legally, because they differ from other human beings in a number of significant ways.

It should of course be a crime would be to force a pregnant woman to ingest abortive medicine, whether that be equivalent to assault or attempted manslaughter (of the woman). But if it is legal to kill a fetus in one situation, it should always be legal to kill a fetus - the killing act should not be a crime under any circumstances.

 

[BajiBoxer]

It's something people do to resolve cognitive dissonance. A fetus is a human being, period.

According to your uneducated scientific opinion.

 

[HiredN00bs]

According to your uneducated scientific opinion.

Is this meant to be sarcastic?

Just in case in isn't (or for those who actually think a human fetus in its human mother's womb is not an alive human being), how is a human fetus not a human being? Is it not human? Is it not being?

 

[goomba]

If women have reproductive rights, men should too otherwise neither should. equal protection under law shouldnt have exceptions

 

[HiredN00bs]

equal protection under law (except in the case of reproductive rights)

don't worry, you can choose to have an abortion too should you get pregnant

 

[Devolution]

If women have reproductive rights, men should too otherwise neither should. equal protection under law shouldnt have exceptions

You want equal and symmetrical treatment in a situation that's not equivalent to begin with.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

If women have reproductive rights, men should too otherwise neither should. equal protection under law shouldnt have exceptions

You should definitely explain this view more, otherwise you may be seen as being okay with what this guy did.

 

[PogiJones]

I must admit I'm a little bit enjoying seeing so many people squirm under their beliefs when a story like this forces them into the uncomfortable confrontation with their cognitive dissonance.

So much effort is spent devaluing the worth of a fetus to promote an agenda, and yet a story like this makes everyone sick. Slipping someone a laxative is a prank; this is murder/equal to murder/really bad, for 99% of people.

I'm not under the belief that a tiny embryo is the same as a baby, but I don't pretend it's nothing more than a skin tag, either.

 

[Mona]

that is completely fucked up and indefensible.

 

[Mona]

So much effort is spent devaluing the worth of a fetus to promote an agenda, and yet a story like this makes everyone sick.

why wouldn't it make the same people sick? its the mothers decision as to what value she gives to her own fetus, this is an example of someone taking that away form her, its the same exact agenda these people have always pushed. pro-choice for the mother.

it makes people sick when the mother is forced to have the baby, and it makes people sick when the mother is forced to not have the baby. thats what pro-choice is all about, respecting the choice.

 

[Jake.]

It should be a crime, but I can't see how it's murder.

pretty much. its a crime, but 14yrs is insane.

 

[Vicetrailia]

While a fetus isn't a human being, he still successfully carried out a fiendishly diabolical plan to kill a would-be human. I mean to me the charge is right, it's murder.

Also on her, didn't even know the guy for a year and was ready to have a baby like a psycho-crazy person, but what he did is really fucked up and she nor the future child deserved that.

 

[YoungHav]

The abortion war is all about keeping access away from poor people, so that they can have unwanted kids who will continue the cycle of poverty. Obvious as hell, yet we have people on the ground thinking they are fighting a moral crusade to "save fetuses". You are only being corporate puppets and fighting the status quo's fight for them. If you had any real moral backbone you'd be fighting for competent sex education across the board.

 

[Hilbert]

Also on her, didn't even know the guy for a year and was ready to have a baby like a psycho-crazy person.

Nope nope nope, you should not have written that thought. It came out fucking disgusting sounding.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Nope nope nope, you should not have written that thought. It came out fucking disgusting sounding.

I didn't victim blame.

 

[EmiPrime]

If women have reproductive rights, men should too otherwise neither should. equal protection under law shouldnt have exceptions

Whoever carries the baby has the deciding say. The two positions are not remotely equivalent.

I must admit I'm a little bit enjoying seeing so many people squirm under their beliefs when a story like this forces them into the uncomfortable confrontation with their cognitive dissonance.

So much effort is spent devaluing the worth of a fetus to promote an agenda, and yet a story like this makes everyone sick. Slipping someone a laxative is a prank; this is murder/equal to murder/really bad, for 99% of people.

I'm not under the belief that a tiny embryo is the same as a baby, but I don't pretend it's nothing more than a skin tag, either.

The status of the foetus depends on if it's wanted. For those expecting and wanted a child, it's their baby. For those who don't want to be parents it's not a baby.

She wanted the child so for her it was a human being. He poisoned her, taking away her bodily autonomy and killed the baby she was expecting.

I don't see the cognitive dissonance here.

 

[Keri]

it makes people sick when the mother is forced to have the baby, and it makes people sick when the mother is forced to not have the baby. thats what pro-choice is all about, respecting the choice.

It's depressing how quickly and easily the experiences of the mother are devalued and ignored. The only way this situation is comparable to abortion, is if you completely ignore the rights and feelings of the mother and her control over her own body. There's nothing inconsistent about being pro-choice and finding this crime abhorrent.

 

[Brian Griffin]

why wouldn't it make the same people sick? its the mothers decision as to what value she gives to her own fetus, this is an example of someone taking that away form her, its the same exact agenda these people have always pushed. pro-choice for the mother.

it makes people sick when the mother is forced to have the baby, and it makes people sick when the mother is forced to not have the baby. thats what pro-choice is all about, respecting the choice.

Pretty much. I'm feeling zero cognitive dissonance over this exactly because I'm pro-choice. What the fetus is and/or what value it has is decided by the mother.

 

[remist]

Whoever carries the baby has the deciding say. The two positions are not remotely equivalent.



The status of the foetus depends on if it's wanted. For those expecting and wanted a child, it's their baby. For those who don't want to be parents it's not a baby.

She wanted the child so for her it was a human being. He poisoned her, taking away her bodily autonomy and killed the baby she was expecting.

I don't see the cognitive dissonance here.

That's absurd. The abortion of a 6 week old fetus is either the killing of a human being or not. The law can't change based simply on the perception of those involved. No doubt this is a terrible crime, but to claim it is murder because the mother perceived the fetus as a child and not simply as a fetus is crazy.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

I must admit I'm a little bit enjoying seeing so many people squirm under their beliefs when a story like this forces them into the uncomfortable confrontation with their cognitive dissonance.

So much effort is spent devaluing the worth of a fetus to promote an agenda, and yet a story like this makes everyone sick. Slipping someone a laxative is a prank; this is murder/equal to murder/really bad, for 99% of people.

I'm not under the belief that a tiny embryo is the same as a baby, but I don't pretend it's nothing more than a skin tag, either.

It's like you don't understand bodily autonomy or the pro-choice position at all.

 

[Dark Octave]

Men can legally force women to have abortions - just as long as it's not deceptive? Did you think about what you posted before you did so?

Read the rest of the thread before you wanna go off snapping.

And I don't even understand what you're talking about. I never said anything about men forcing women to have abortions.

 

[Scrooged]

Pretty much. I'm feeling zero cognitive dissonance over this exactly because I'm pro-choice. What the fetus is and/or what value it has is decided by the mother.

The very fact that there is a limit on when an abortion can be done should make you think about how flawed it is to assert that the mother has the ultimate say in whether her unborn child should live. Unless you don't think there should be a limit?

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Read the rest of the thread before you wanna go off snapping.

And I don't even understand what you're talking about. I never said anything about men forcing women to have abortions.

You said that he is in jail for doing what millions of people do every day legally.

What is it that he did that would be legal if he did not do it deceptively? Because he forced her to have an abortion. Which is certainly not legal.

 

[SoCoRoBo]

It's an invasion of her bodily integrity, not murder.

 

[remist]

To those of you claiming that your pro-choice position is all about body autonomy and not about the nonpersonhood of the fetus; do you disagree with bans on late term abortions?

 

[Kazerei]

To those of you claiming that your pro-choice position is all about body autonomy and not about the nonpersonhood of the fetus; do you disagree with bans on late term abortions?

Yes, I disagree with bans on late term abortions. In Canada, there is no term limit.

Edit: Honestly, I think the term limits are just an attempt by anti-abortionists to block women from having access, similar to the burdensome laws for abortion clinics. Late term abortions in Canada are rare, anyways.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

The very fact that there is a limit on when an abortion can be done should make you think about how flawed it is to assert that the mother has the ultimate say in whether her unborn child should live. Unless you don't think there should be a limit?

That doesn't make sense, could you expand on this point? There are no limits on Abortion in Canada so going by your logic, abortion is not flawed in any way.

It's a matter of bodily autonomy, the fetus does not have the right to occupy the body of the women, she has a right to remove the fetus from her person.

 

[Bleepey]

You want equal and symmetrical treatment in a situation that's not equivalent to begin with.

We had this discussion already:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56058564

 

[Igo]

14 years on a plea agreement... I'm confused.

Really surprised this didn't go to trial. Seems like a case lawyers would have been excited to take, but maybe this dude was genuinely remorseful and wanted to do his time.

 

[Eusis]

The very fact that there is a limit on when an abortion can be done should make you think about how flawed it is to assert that the mother has the ultimate say in whether her unborn child should live. Unless you don't think there should be a limit?

Besides the matter of compromising with opposition, there's the angles that most women would've known long before then (with sensible limits) on whether or not they're pregnant, and that the fetus is reaching the point of actually being conscious and a mostly developed baby rather than a wad of cells still rapidly dividing. Nevermind that it sounds like the process can get rather gruesome later on, whereas in the earliest stages it can literally be done with a pill.

 

[gutter_trash]

calling it murder opens a can of worms declaring fetus to be a human life at that early stage.

this sounds more like ''poisoning''

 

[remist]

Yes, I disagree with bans on late term abortions. In Canada, there is no term limit.

So you recognize that you are balancing the rights of two separate living humans and you still think the woman should have the right to kill the unborn child even if it could survive outside her womb?

 

[LuchaShaq]

I view an unaborted unwanted Pregnancy the same way I'd view a gun pointed at my head.

I can't say I would not have done the same thing or worse in his situation.

That said I have always made these feelings known to any sexual partner. Has cost me a few hookups but gives me peace of mind.

 

[Mona]

The very fact that there is a limit on when an abortion can be done...

implying that a piece of legislation doubles as an earth-wide moral standard.

 

[nateeasy]

I view an unaborted unwanted Pregnancy the same way I'd view a gun pointed at my head.

I can't say I would not have done the same thing or worse in his situation.

That said I have always made these feelings known to any sexual partner. Has cost me a few hookups but gives me peace of mind.

Say what?

 

[Kazerei]

So you recognize that you are balancing the rights of two separate living humans and you still think the woman should have the right to kill the unborn child even if it could survive outside her womb?

Is this supposed to be a gotcha? I don't consider a fetus to have any rights. A fetus is not a separate living human. Personhood begins at birth.

 

[Dark Octave]

You said that he is in jail for doing what millions of people do every day legally.

What is it that he did that would be legal if he did not do it deceptively? Because he forced her to have an abortion. Which is certainly not legal.

Yeah that's a rough one. He's in prison for the same thing thousands of people are doing legally every day.

Abortions. A lot of people do it and it's legal. He was responsible for aborting a six week old fetus.

His only crime was doing it through deception.

That and he potentially put her in harm by giving her the drug. The way he went about doing the legal act is illegal.

We're basically agreeing, I think.