Eh, I disagree. It brings up plenty of good points and I wish Marvel took their music a little more seriously. The beginning of the video is silly, obviously, but it's just trying to hook people into watching it, and the temp music argument is debateable, but it doesn't change the face that Marvel's general music output is overly generic.
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Michael Giacchino posts Clip from Spider-Man Homecoming OST -> Classic Theme
- Thread starter GAMEPROFF
- Start date
Eh, I disagree. It brings up plenty of good points and I wish Marvel took their music a little more seriously. The beginning of the video is silly, obviously, but it's just trying to hook people into watching it, and the temp music argument is debateable, but it doesn't change the face that Marvel's general music output is overly generic.
brandonh83
Banned
Secret Fawful
Member
I don't like it.
Here's the thing.
What is this movie trying to be? Is it trying to be an epic superhero action movie, a John Hughes teen drama, both, or what? They promised this movie would be a small stakes John Hughes drama, but it's like they don't know how to make one or how to market one, one or the other or both.
They've shown minor glimpses of that element at best, but that's it. John Hughes movies are about taking broken, sad people and putting them together or taking them apart in a way that brings them closer in the end, and opens up their pain. It's about getting past barriers and social expectations to who people really are. It's not a leap to make a Spider-Man movie about this. However, it doesn't make sense to have a movie about Peter finding his identity and place in the world in his formative years use a theme that is all about calling back to the Spider-Man we already know and have known since before Raimi came along. This Spider-Man should get a chance to set his own musical identity, not just call back to one we already know. This is Marvel's way of saying: hey, Tom is the REAL Spider-Man. He's the MARVEL Spider-Man. You don't prove that with callbacks, you prove it by giving him an identity that sets him apart from and above the rest.
I really hope they understand and commit to the John Hughes style here, and don't compromise on that to meet what they think Spider-Man is, because they've already fucked that up several ways as it is. Like, they've sold this movie mostly on callbacks and things we've never seen in the movies before, like the Spider Signal, it's just that those things are done worse here than in the actual comics, so...I'd just rather see them commit to what they can bring that is truly unique, which is the John Hughes element.
That's what truly excites me about this Spider-Man movie. A Spider-Man movie in the vein of Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club, and Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. I honestly kind of wish they hadn't even picked a villain like Vulture, and had kept it to miniscule lesser-known villains like Montana, Fancy Dan, or Swarm. I don't even really want the big action sequences. I pretty much just want the high school drama. Peter working shit out. Flash being a broken jock who takes his bad family life out on others, like Estevez in The Breakfast Club. Liz and Michele working their shit out and Peter figuring out who he loves. Learning about each other and forming bonds.
Honestly, this is the perfect movie for them to use pop music from the 80s or music from this era, like Don't You Forget About Me by Simple Minds. If they want to do John Hughes, they should have looked at the one thing that got it the most right after Hughes stopped making good stuff: Futurama. The best, and most heartbreaking moments and storylines of Futurama wouldn't exist without John Hughes. Luck of the Fryrish is what this movie should be tonally and emotionally.
Anyway.
Here's the thing.
What is this movie trying to be? Is it trying to be an epic superhero action movie, a John Hughes teen drama, both, or what? They promised this movie would be a small stakes John Hughes drama, but it's like they don't know how to make one or how to market one, one or the other or both.
They've shown minor glimpses of that element at best, but that's it. John Hughes movies are about taking broken, sad people and putting them together or taking them apart in a way that brings them closer in the end, and opens up their pain. It's about getting past barriers and social expectations to who people really are. It's not a leap to make a Spider-Man movie about this. However, it doesn't make sense to have a movie about Peter finding his identity and place in the world in his formative years use a theme that is all about calling back to the Spider-Man we already know and have known since before Raimi came along. This Spider-Man should get a chance to set his own musical identity, not just call back to one we already know. This is Marvel's way of saying: hey, Tom is the REAL Spider-Man. He's the MARVEL Spider-Man. You don't prove that with callbacks, you prove it by giving him an identity that sets him apart from and above the rest.
I really hope they understand and commit to the John Hughes style here, and don't compromise on that to meet what they think Spider-Man is, because they've already fucked that up several ways as it is. Like, they've sold this movie mostly on callbacks and things we've never seen in the movies before, like the Spider Signal, it's just that those things are done worse here than in the actual comics, so...I'd just rather see them commit to what they can bring that is truly unique, which is the John Hughes element.
That's what truly excites me about this Spider-Man movie. A Spider-Man movie in the vein of Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club, and Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. I honestly kind of wish they hadn't even picked a villain like Vulture, and had kept it to miniscule lesser-known villains like Montana, Fancy Dan, or Swarm. I don't even really want the big action sequences. I pretty much just want the high school drama. Peter working shit out. Flash being a broken jock who takes his bad family life out on others, like Estevez in The Breakfast Club. Liz and Michele working their shit out and Peter figuring out who he loves. Learning about each other and forming bonds.
Honestly, this is the perfect movie for them to use pop music from the 80s or music from this era, like Don't You Forget About Me by Simple Minds. If they want to do John Hughes, they should have looked at the one thing that got it the most right after Hughes stopped making good stuff: Futurama. The best, and most heartbreaking moments and storylines of Futurama wouldn't exist without John Hughes. Luck of the Fryrish is what this movie should be tonally and emotionally.
Anyway.
Dude so far as we know it's currently just opening credits music. Damn.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, it's the music that plays over the Marvel logo at the beginning of the film.
thisisneogaf.gif
Secret Fawful
Member
I kind of doubt it's JUST opener music, though I'm sure this particular clip is from the logo opener.
I feel like I read in the past the film theme itself would be the 60s theme, but I can't find where now.
My post is just made up of overall fears for the movie that this theme adds to.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Was the music Giacchino did for the Marvel logo in Doctor Strange used anywhere else in his score for Doctor Strange?
Secret Fawful
Member
No, and also I can't for the life of me find where I saw it said that he was doing the classic theme at all. I know I read it months ago, but I can't find it, so now I feel like I'm crazy. Fuck, don't mind me then, I must be losing it. I thought for sure I read that. Goddamn it.
DCU movies have been shite except their OST. MCU movies have been great, decent, plain but all their scores are mediocre.
brickarts295
Member
Really good homage, can see it definitely fit the character and tone of the film. But Elfman's theme is just irreplaceable.
brandonh83
Banned
This isn't the main theme and Elfmans was good but it's just... a theme. Nothing is being replaced. If Homecoming were the first Spiderman movie and Giacchino did the theme, and Elfman came along later and did that theme for a new series the same would be said.
I don't think the first theme being written for a live action comic series that has many iterations is the end all be all. Just a new theme for a new series. Which we haven't heard yet
Yeah, that's my biggest issue with him. His earlier works were much more adventurous but somewhere along the way, he absorbed that RC sound (albeit with a better overall command of the orchestra) and it just sounds so samey. His themes also tend to sound very similar (and revolve around the same simplistic harmonies).
(Some of his action cues are a guilty pleasure, though.)
I don't think the first theme being written for a live action comic series that has many iterations is the end all be all. Just a new theme for a new series. Which we haven't heard yet
I like Horner's theme a lot. I wish he had returned for Amazing Spider-Man 2.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah Horner's was excellent. But Zimmer did a good one too.
brickarts295
Member
This isn't the main theme and Elfmans was good but it's just... a theme. Nothing is being replaced. If Homecoming were the first Spiderman movie and Giacchino did the theme, and Elfman came along later and did that theme for a new series the same would be said.
I don't think the first theme being written for a live action comic series that has many iterations is the end all be all. Just a new theme for a new series. Which we haven't heard yet
Yeah now that I'm thinking about it, I used the wrong word. Plus your right this might not even be the theme.
Fancyarcher
Member
Children of Dune & Timeline are the two Tyler scores I probably enjoy the most, along with Now You See Me (RC sounding at points yes, but he also takes inspiration from 60's lounge band jazz as well), and those were earlier on in his career. He definitely creates a lot of samesy sounding scores these days. He's also been hit with a serious case of temp-tracking recently. For example I thought his music for Power Rangers was fine but you could tell they were trying to make it sound way too much like Tron Legacy. Oy! Also he's not exactly the master of subtlety when it comes to orchestrations either.
Still I do think he's fairly talented as an actual composer overall.
Agreed about Horner. His theme was very heroic. I still bummed he didn't return for the sequel because apparently Sony wasn't interested in rehiring him, not just because he read the script and thought it sucked, like rumors stated before. Sign!
There are a few problems with the video (like ignoring how films are made, specifically when music is composed for a movie) but the biggest issue lies in their comparisons. They ask people to hum music that has been part of the cultural zeitgeist for decades, and are part of lengthy series of films and other media. The Star Wars theme has been in a half-dozen films, countless TV shows and specials, and in every bit of advertising related to the series, from toys to trailers. The Bond theme has been used in over 20 movies since the 60's. Harry Potter has had 8 movies, all using the same primary theme which is inexorably linked to the character through all media. The video suggests these three are the norm, which is absurd.
Then they present the MCU as a single series, another absurdity. At the time of the video, the MCU was made up of two separate trilogies, two movies with sequels, and four stand-alone films. Furthermore, the series' within the Marvel films make it a point not to use the same themes. There are instances of some call-backs and musical quoting, but when you sit down to watch the second Thor or Iron Man or Captain America film, you are not presented with the musical themes used in their respective predecessors. There is a legitimate criticism to be made of this practice, and, really, is the reason few people can hum an MCU theme, but that's not what this video attempts to hang its hat on.
So, instead of going "Hey, there are 12 movies in the MCU, and only 8 Harry Potter films!" and asking why people can hum one over the other, they should compare the two Avengers films or one Ant-Man film or two Thor films with other popular one- and two-film outings. Ask the average person to hum a theme from Avatar, Inception, Da Vinci Code, or Night at the Museum, and they'll largely come up with nothing. Heck, even asking for themes from recent hit series like Hunger Games, Twilight, or The Dark Knight would result in very few accurate responses.
Now, once that comparison is made correctly, you can ask why the Marvel films aren't an exception to the norm, and the answer lies mostly in what I mentioned earlier about the fact that Marvel does not reuse themes. There are some very, very strong composed lines in the MCU. Cap's theme from his first film, used for his cameo in Thor 2 is a prime example. The Avengers theme is another. But as effective as they are, for various reasons they weren't reused as thei main theme in their sequels. Personally, I think this is a mistake by Marvel, and one that at least some there seemed to recognize (with Elfman brought in to specifically place the Avengers theme into Ultron) but, again, that is not what the video is claiming.
Ultimately, beyond the rather pompous "I'm going to ignore what the director is trying to do in this scene" ridiculousness, Every Frame a Painting's video suggests that music in the MCU is poorly composed, which is categorically false. They also make the absurd claim that music following the emotion of a scene is 'safe' and 'forgettable.' That alone should be cause for derision. Finally, there's their rail against temp music, suggesting that it's a relatively new practice, and with the implication that it results in bad scores. Williams used it in Star Wars, Morricone used it in Days of Heaven, it has been a common practice throughout modern cinema, and, in many cases, is a necessity.
So, yeah, there's a lot wrong with the video. Their arguments are based on a list of falsities, and with the absence of a foundation, their points really don't stand. Granted, most people won't think to question the givens, so the video comes off appearing solid.
Hmm, wrote more than I expected, and am a few beers into the night, so if any of this doesn't make sense, I might try to explain further later.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
I love it. It's my favourite score from the MCU, great for listening to while running.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
Okaaaay. Have you heard of John Williams and Superman?
Wasn't really feeling the track in the OP as the main theme but it's perfect for Marvel logo intro.
Yes, I have.
"Since Burton Batman" would not include William's Supe, unless we're counting the reusing of the theme?
John Williams' Superman predates Burton's Batman by a decade.
Anyway, The Incredibles had the best superhero score since Burton Batman.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Wait, who composed that John Barry-esque mountain of musical goodness?
Some videogame nerd I think.
For me, Winter Solider is the only Marvel movie with a genuinely great (not to mention memorable) score.
The main theme is absolutely aces.
But on a personal level, Danny Elfman's score for Spiderman 2 reigns supreme.
The main theme is absolutely aces.
But on a personal level, Danny Elfman's score for Spiderman 2 reigns supreme.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well, it wasn't the very end of the credits. It's the entire credits. It starts pretty much immediately.
But yes, "Roar!" is fucking amazing.
Sounds a bit like the original japanese Godzilla Theme
Fancyarcher
Member
It is. It's a tribute to Ifubuke's Kaiju music & monsters movies in general including Steiner's King Kong. For me it's one of Giacchino's best pieces of music.
This starts playing anytime I walk anywhere with a purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn9uKBwgEv4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn9uKBwgEv4
damn, that theme was amazing
I really like Giacchino (in fact, I'm going to a concert celebrating his 50th birthday later this year), but I do think his scores sometimes lack richness and subtlety in their instrumentation. I don't know how much of this is down to the production and recordings of the scores, but it can feel sometimes like a piece for fewer instruments stretched over a whole orchestra. The time I felt this way was the strongest was after listening to the the BFG's soundtrack, right after listening to Rogue One's. The contrast in depth of the orchestration is pretty extreme. Then again, John Williams is a living legend so perhaps it's an unfair comparison.
Giacchino has been getting better with his use of the woodwinds over time but yeah, no one in the business matches Williams in that regard. Hell, a lot of film composers (mostly from the Zimmer school) don't use them at all.
Patrick Doyle's Thor 1 soundtrack is great, Alan Silvestri's work on Cap and Avengers is pretty solid, and Tyler Bates' Guardians theme is excellent.
Up, Star Trek, Lost, Speed Racer though? Next level. Can't wait for this film now!
MagnaderAlpha
Member
Say what you will about the movie, I loved Giacchino's score for Super 8. I thought it was not only memorable, also pays homage to the type of music you'd hear in those Amblin-esque 80s movies pretty damn well.
As someone who played clarinet in his school years, that makes me extremely sad. Always had a love for the woodwind sound.
As someone who played clarinet in his school years, that makes me extremely sad. Always had a love for the woodwind sound.
At first, I wasn't a fan of taking the old Spider-Man TV show theme and doing a pretty basic arrangement of it. It all just struck me as really disappointing.
Now, I think as long as it's not the main theme, it should be great to hear it pop up throughout the film or even just at the end. This film has felt like it needs something a bit more memorably "Spider-Man", and appealing to nostalgia in a pretty blunt way definitely can evoke those feelings. For many people, Raimi's Spider-Man has sort of become the default of what mainstream audiences think of Spidey/Peter, for better or worse. At the same time, many people have different ideas of what Spider-Man is to them over the years, and despite having some really great classic Spider-Man details we have yet to see in a film (webwings, expressive eyes, classic web design on his costume, etc.) combined with all the stuff that we've seen but just works for the character, there hasn't yet been the thing that says this new Spider-Man is THE Spider-Man and not just another take. I think the old theme song really should help with a lot of the heavy lifting.
For me, the one thing I really am waiting for is to see a great comic book inspired "spider sense" scene. We got a nice nod to that in Civil War
but I want some kind of visualized lines. I think if they nail a great spider-sense scene in Homecoming, I'll mark out so hard the first time it happens.
I really liked Elfman's theme and I'm open to them trying something new musically as well, I just hope they are able to just nail what everyone is looking for in an MCU Spider-Man across the board.
That said, I really don't like Giacchino's Rogue One theme. The rest of the score is fine, I just can't get over how much I don't like that main theme.
Now, I think as long as it's not the main theme, it should be great to hear it pop up throughout the film or even just at the end. This film has felt like it needs something a bit more memorably "Spider-Man", and appealing to nostalgia in a pretty blunt way definitely can evoke those feelings. For many people, Raimi's Spider-Man has sort of become the default of what mainstream audiences think of Spidey/Peter, for better or worse. At the same time, many people have different ideas of what Spider-Man is to them over the years, and despite having some really great classic Spider-Man details we have yet to see in a film (webwings, expressive eyes, classic web design on his costume, etc.) combined with all the stuff that we've seen but just works for the character, there hasn't yet been the thing that says this new Spider-Man is THE Spider-Man and not just another take. I think the old theme song really should help with a lot of the heavy lifting.
For me, the one thing I really am waiting for is to see a great comic book inspired "spider sense" scene. We got a nice nod to that in Civil War
but I want some kind of visualized lines. I think if they nail a great spider-sense scene in Homecoming, I'll mark out so hard the first time it happens.
I really liked Elfman's theme and I'm open to them trying something new musically as well, I just hope they are able to just nail what everyone is looking for in an MCU Spider-Man across the board.
That said, I really don't like Giacchino's Rogue One theme. The rest of the score is fine, I just can't get over how much I don't like that main theme.
EdReedFan20
Member
Yup. And don't forget the current default Marvel fanfare was composed by him, so he's well aware of what the perfect length would need to be.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Not exactly new thread worthy, but we're getting a new trailer in 2 days: https://trailer-track.com/2017/05/2...r-man-homecoming-trailer-swings-in-wednesday/
I doubt it happens, but it'd be great if Giacchino's classic played during it.
I doubt it happens, but it'd be great if Giacchino's classic played during it.
brandonh83
Banned
Rogue One's theme was awesome IMO
Rogue One's theme melody is really great in how much it conveys in it's simplicity.
In just 8 notes, it instantly tells you:
- It's a Star Wars story (the first few notes are lifted from the opening crawl)
- It is immensely hopeful (it gradually rises in levity)
- It has a tragic tint to it (it ends in a dark tone)
- It gives the impression of a long trip/a lot of adversity (rising notes gives it momentum as if you could imagine traveling along rolling hills)
via it's skillful orchestration and tone. Not many composers can set that kind of tone in just a short motif.
In just 8 notes, it instantly tells you:
- It's a Star Wars story (the first few notes are lifted from the opening crawl)
- It is immensely hopeful (it gradually rises in levity)
- It has a tragic tint to it (it ends in a dark tone)
- It gives the impression of a long trip/a lot of adversity (rising notes gives it momentum as if you could imagine traveling along rolling hills)
via it's skillful orchestration and tone. Not many composers can set that kind of tone in just a short motif.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
brandonh83
Banned
Also the Guardians of the Whills track is incredible.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, that gets discussed in that link as well.
brandonh83
Banned
Rock, thanks for sharing it.
DoctorFling
Member
I liked the Rogue One music, I just wish I was more connected to the actual film. Giacchino is great.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You gotta click that link, Doc.