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[AALLx]

Instead of senseless comments, please offer debate or insight. One sentence replies are shameful. He is right. Microsoft as a company is more healthier than Sony, especially before and during the 360 years. Sony was bleeding money from heavy losses on tvs, cameras, etc. They were doing so bad they hired an outside CEO for the first time to make cuts.

Did you just call Kazuo Hirai an outsider, or are you referring to some other CEO that Sony hired?

 

[Melchiah]

Did you just call Kazuo Hirai an outsider, or are you referring to some other CEO that Sony hired?

Sir Howard Stringer became chairman and CEO in 2005, president in 2009, stepped down in 2012, and was replaced by Kazuo Hirai; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Stringer


EDIT: Dunno about him fitting the description of being outsider though...

Stringer began work at Sony in May 1997 as president of its US operational unit (Sony Corporation of America). He was made a Sony group executive officer in May 1998.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

No Fake news ... Let's see in 2011 SONY lost $3.1b, in 2012 SONY lost $6.4 billion, in 2013 Sony lost $0.5 billon, in 2014 SONY lost $1.29 Billion. So in 5 years, SONY lost over $10 billion dollars and noone here, was saying it was the end of SONY or the PS3 and they would pull out.

MS, on the other hand, is done for despite posting profits, even in the XBox division.

You've got the fucking gall to accuse other people of spreading fake news and then you tell blatant lies that were refuted with evidence a few posts later.

 

[dragonyeuw]

While you may very well be right, let's not pretend that the upgrade from the ps4 to the ps4 pro is even close to the upgrade from the xbox one to the xbox one x lol. There are a lot of xbox owners who are pretty excited to play xbox games that will be much improved. Phil Spencer also said the one x isn't supposed to be a big system seller. Its a niche console for enthusiasts wanting a more powerful system. I think 10% would be an okay number, but I'd hope for 20-30%. I don't know if the 4k blu ray player will be the same from the one s, hopefully not, but an improved 4k blu ray player could easily justify the 100 dollars more when you consider most current players are 200+ dollars alone. The nicer ones are 400-500 dollars. So it's not unreasonable to think that that could also entice someone to go for the more expensive console. From what I've read, the one s 4k blu ray player is just okay, but not great. So hopefully they improve it with the one x.

The purpose of my post was not to compare the power differences between the XB1 and X, to the PS4 and PS4 Pro. My point is, how many people beyond the hardcore actually care about that at this point in the generation? Ps4 Pro sales are 20% of total sales, right? That means 8 out of every 10 Ps4 buyers are consciously choosing to buy the 'inferior' model for one reason, price differential. And there's $150 difference between the Ps4 slim and the Pro; You're looking at anywhere from a $250 to even $300 difference between the XB1s and X models this holiday season. Who, outside of people who understand what supersampling is or the difference between checkerboard and native 4K, are going to be paying those higher prices with dramatically cheaper versions available that can access the same games and basic functionality? Who do you think cares that much beyond 4k diehards, for any 'improvements' between the XB1s and X 4K players to pay twice the price for it? Not the average consumer who's perfectly fine with the $500 walmart 4k set over the $2000 LG OLED set.

I'm not knocking the X, I'm sure it will be great for what it is, but we we need to temper our sales expectations. I'm more than happy to eat crow come November.

 

[AngelOFDeath]

There's an infamous prediction thread for this generation, where people believed Sony was going to bow out of the race.

thanks for this, cause wow there was some bold statements made here.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Andromeda took this in a pretty wild misdirection.

Aren't there PC versions of both?

The point is they're barely selling anyone on the affordable base model any more.

 

[neojubei]

There's an infamous prediction thread for this generation, where people believed Sony was going to bow out of the race.

Wow at the predictions in that thread.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Read what Team Andromeda actually wrote. His entire argument is that despite Sony's troubles none here wrote about Sony getting out of video games business. He doubled down on that. His argument is blatantly false. Never mind that ridiculously thread from 2013 or the infamous Amir's "Age of Sony is done..." post and other posts like that, but there were in fact serious talk here and within tech community at large about how PlayStation should separate from Sony and spin off into a separate entity. Team Andromeda is living in his own world if he believes otherwise. Furthermore, Microsoft's overall financial situation doesn't dictate if they stay in the Xbox hardware business. Talking about Microsoft at large is like bringing up about struggles of Sony Pictures when talking about financial situation of PlayStation.

Nobody was saying SONY was going to pull out (maybe 1 or 2) even though SONY PS division was also losing money, selling the PS3 at a loss and getting rid of the 'Father of the PlayStation'.

MS on the other is pulling out and done for.Despite making profits and spending billions and over 3 years of R&D on a mid gen upgrade. When was the last time the entertainment division (XBox) made a loss at MS? every year for the OG XBox is a given (bar the year of Halo II) The year when MS had to write the $1 billion write off with the 3 Rings of death debacle and that's it. I can't ever recall since then MS entertainment division making any sort of loss?

Not the stuff of fanboy nonsense from with SONY Defense Force or the XBots, just the facts.

 

[pswii60]

Wow at the predictions in that thread.

It shows just how badly Microsoft fucked up with XBO. The goodwill was on their side and they pissed off their fans and drove them to PlayStation. It really does reset at the beginning of a generation.

 

[Team Andromeda]

The 360 had a lot going for it which you seem not to understand .
It had loads of exclusive early on because it was the first next gen system and they invest in Japanese games .
It had a year lead in the USA and 15 months in EU and price advantage .
Better performing games , early DLC and marketing deals and better online systems and OS .
To say 360 had the same problems as Xb1 is crazy looking at all the factors .
More than ever MS needs games to set them apart since they don't have the advantages they had with 360 .

Also a lot of people were saying Sony in trouble or going to drop out etc etc .
In fact we had people saying the console market was in trouble on the whole .

Look I was there at the start, but all the 360 fans also overlook many of its issues. Can't recall when Robbie Bach was selling off In-House studios or closing them down (like Fasta Indie built or even BUNGiE for crying out oud)), seeing close 1st or 3rd parties like Bizzare Creations, Dice, Bioware be bought out or when so called exclusives like Lost Planet, Mass Effect (an IP MS set up) even Team Ninja and the likes of Ninja Gaiden II go on the PS3, the end of working with Mistwalker. That's it's the end of 360 and MS is pulling out.

MS even once had a close working relationship with FromSoftware even bagged an exclusive RPG off them right at the get-go, we saw From go with SONY and make the classic called Demon Souls. What about the lack of any sort of major exclusives compared to the PS3, other than Gears, Forza and Halo, what was this In-House studio that could go toe to toe with SONY's Naughty Dog in the 360 era . Really other than Fable, what's really changed?

Not that much. I agree (and said) MS needs to do more, but the issues and troubles all started midway in the 360 and with Robbie imo

 

[Widge]

It shows just how badly Microsoft fucked up with XBO. The goodwill was on their side and they pissed off their fans and drove them to PlayStation. It really does reset at the beginning of a generation.

This is why it's a bit interesting right now. Generation resets are seemingly gone and Microsoft's strategy has been hit from the off.

If we dial back, it looked like they had these aims:

Become the central entertainment hub for the front room - TV focus.
Enforce cloud as an fundamental part of the next gens development.
Continue as the leading third party platform.

Both the first two got ditched. The third is an absolute reliance.

Sony took notes from the 360 plus their PS3 failings and got out a cost effective games first machine. This handed them sales and third party support.

Without the third party support, no cloud exclusivity was forthcoming from the devs. There was reliance there because bar Crackdown, MS clearly are not supporting it - their strategy of reliance on third party to deliver content.

They've had to switch to a games first focus and sharpish. But where Sony dealt with this on the PS3 by a generation of studio output that (a bit late) gave the machine at least a hardware boost along with a really tasty PSN+ deal.

MS haven't had the chance to do this as they've already had to respond to a mid gen hardware shift (where Sony have got a year's march, gone on cheaper with a stop gap - as 4K is clearly not mass market).

They're in a position where their entire last decade's business strategy cornerstone has been ripped out from underneath them and there are no tangible signs of an reversal of this. So this is why people say they may just pull out, and very well go to a software only approach and try to take on Valve instead. It seems to suit them as they clearly are not in it to make games any more and just want to cream of other people's sales.

 

[Team Andromeda]

It shows just how badly Microsoft fucked up with XBO. The goodwill was on their side and they pissed off their fans and drove them to PlayStation. It really does reset at the beginning of a generation.

Like SONY did with the PS3? or NCL with the Wii U. Sure MS cocked up with the XBox One at the start, but it's doing a lot put things right, like SONY did . Yes it needs to do a few more deals but with no 'Bastard' Kinect and a super powerful console, maybe they'll be a turn around on what will be the lead platform.

Hopefully, also MS using the talent at RARE for making games not crap on Kinect and we get that sequel to Kameo we should have had years ago.

 

[The God]

Like SONY did with the PS3? or NCL with the Wii U. Sure MS cocked up with the XBox One at the start, but it's doing a lot put things right, like SONY did . Yes it needs to do a few more deals but with no 'Bastard' Kinect and a super powerful console, maybe they'll be a turn around on what will be the lead platform.

Hopefully, also MS using the talent at RARE for making games not crap on Kinect and we get that sequel to Kameo we should have had years ago.

Nintendo never turned the Wii U around though? and Microsoft isn't focusing on one of the critical parts of a turn around, which is games

 

[Melchiah]

Nobody was saying SONY was going to pull out (maybe 1 or 2) even though SONY PS division was also losing money, selling the PS3 at a loss and getting rid of the 'Father of the PlayStation'.

MS on the other is pulling out and done for.Despite making profits and spending billions and over 3 years of R&D on a mid gen upgrade. When was the last time the entertainment division (XBox) made a loss at MS? every year for the OG XBox is a given (bar the year of Halo II) The year when MS had to write the $1 billion write off with the 3 Rings of death debacle and that's it. I can't ever recall since then MS entertainment division making any sort of loss?

Not the stuff of fanboy nonsense from with SONY Defense Force or the XBots, just the facts.

You should really read the prediction thread I linked. It's not just one or two people.

As for profits and losses, here's information provided on another thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=246083972&postcount=174
In 2010, the Xbox division was -$6,157,000 in the red in total, and had only two profitable years.

 

[Kumomeme]

Not only microsoft need exclusives...also game that also doesnt available on pc
MS decision to make their exclusives also available on pc(windows 10) kind of pouring oil into fire

i doubt 2018 will change anything if most of the exclusives also coming to pc

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Nobody was saying SONY was going to pull out (maybe 1 or 2) even though SONY PS division was also losing money, selling the PS3 at a loss and getting rid of the 'Father of the PlayStation'.

Stop. Telling. Lies.

Here's a handful of comments from page 2 of this topic Your predictions for the Big Three at the end of The Next Generation, linked on the previous page:

(which part is a dream?)
Sony even being alive 6 years from now, let alone 1st or 2nd.

1. Microsoft
2. Nintendo
3. PC\Steam

Sony dead.

Nintendo = king, yet again. Both Wii U and 3DS sell a bunch.

Microsoft = Nextobx will sell pretty good in the US, not as good as the 360

Sony = am doomed. Vita won't sell, it might not even last 4 years in the market. PS4 will be pretty meh and no, there won't be signs of The Last Guardian.

Sony

Sony will be out of the games business, and possibly out of business altogether.

I mean, I could go on. That was only a review of the first 25 posts on page 2 of that topic.

Like SONY did with the PS3? or NCL with the Wii U. Sure MS cocked up with the XBox One at the start, but it's doing a lot put things right, like SONY did . Yes it needs to do a few more deals but with no 'Bastard' Kinect and a super powerful console, maybe they'll be a turn around on what will be the lead platform.

Hopefully, also MS using the talent at RARE for making games not crap on Kinect and we get that sequel to Kameo we should have had years ago.

The difference between the PS3 and Xbox One is that when the former was struggling they predominantly doubled-down on a broad range of exclusive software to sell the console, and that momentum probably helped the PS4 out of the gate. Microsoft has turned around all the shit that plagued the Xbox One initially and created a very consumer-friendly system, but they crucially still lack a decent range of first party exclusives and they're particularly lacking a big new IP in the last few years like Sony & Nintendo have scored with The Last of Us, Horizon, Xenoblade and Splatoon.

From a third party perspective, I don't see the XOX becoming the lead platform because it's going to be serving an audience of a few million compared to like 30 million for the regular Xbone. I guess it depends whether it's easier for a dev to create a game and crank up the settings, or make it at a higher level and then dial it down for the other platforms. More likely IMO that improvements will be relatively minimal for most games.

 

[Team Andromeda]

You should really read the prediction thread I linked. It's not just one or two people.

As for profits and losses, here's information provided on another thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=246083972&postcount=174
In 2010, the Xbox division was -$6,157,000 in the red in total, and had only two profitable years.

I said after Three Rings of Death which cost MS over a Billion. Post the losses from the XBox division after 2009 up until the present, then we'll have a debate on so-called losses

 

[Skeff]

I agree. Microsoft need more exclusive for the first 8 months of the year. It's healthy to get regular game releases and games don't just sell at Christmas anymore now that more adults are gaming and buying games year round. Anyway...why the hell are sonys financials in this thread about lack of exclusive MS releases from January-July?

 

[Team Andromeda]

The difference between the PS3 and Xbox One is that when the former was struggling they predominantly doubled-down on a broad range of exclusive software to sell the console, and that momentum probably helped the PS4 out of the gate. Microsoft has turned around all the shit that plagued the Xbox One initially and created a very consumer-friendly system, but they crucially still lack a decent range of first party exclusives and they're particularly lacking a big new IP in the last few years like Sony & Nintendo have scored with The Last of Us, Horizon, Xenoblade and Splatoon.

.

I know but other than Fable what 360 In-House exclusives could MS boast that it can't today or have its In-House studios work on (if you must place Kameo,PDZ here) It was the same for the 360 days, then it was all about Halo, Gears, and Forza, hell MS even sold BUNGiE (it prized studio) and that was ok, MS isn't pulling out. For as long as the XBox brand been out, it played 2nd place to SONY in Europe and comes nowhere in Japan.

Not a lot really changed and on this place, it's like you cant make money or do well even in 2nd place. What next, when SONY TV's come 2nd to Samsung
SONY TVs are done for and they're pulling out, when Galaxy comes 2nd to i-Phone that its, and Samsung are out of the phone business, same for SONY mobile division. If you aren't number one you can't make money and have to pull out *rolleyes*

If the XBoxTwo doesn't take off and doesn't sell, then that's when you see 3rd party and retail support dry up and MS have to pull out, even if it doesn't want too. Like one saw with the DC, Jaguar, Neo Geo Pocket .. You only have to walk into a shop to know when a system is in trouble and done for..

We aren't there just yet with XBox

 

[anothertech]

Not the stuff of fanboy nonsense from with SONY Defense Force or the XBots, just the facts.

Holy shit, is MrXmedia back in this forum?

Seriously though, dude, you are posting complete nonsense and need to stop. You've been outed several times over already.

Xbox needs more new ip and exclusives. It's an irrefutable fact. Pulling out Sony tales from your ass does not change this fact.

 

[CaptainClaw]

Not only microsoft need exclusives...also game that also doesnt available on pc
MS decision to make their exclusives also available on pc(windows 10) kind of pouring oil into fire

i doubt 2018 will change anything if most of the exclusives also coming to pc

I get what you mean but in reality I don't think it matters that much...MS having their games on pc allows another set of gamers to go out and play them...PC gamers and Console gamers are very different on different platforms

Right now MS have a Audience on console and need to continue to work on it...but they also need to built their audience on PC and understand PC and Console gamers are different.

 

[GHG]

I know but other than Fable what 360 In-House exclusives could MS boast that it can't today or have its In-House studios work on (if you must place Kameo,PDZ here) It was the same for the 360 days, then it was all about Halo, Gears, and Forza, hell MS even sold BUNGiE (it prized studio) and that was ok, MS isn't pulling out. For as long as the XBox brand been out, it played 2nd place to SONY in Europe and comes nowhere in Japan.

Not a lot really changed and on this place, it's like you cant make money or do well even in 2nd place. What next, when SONY TV's come 2nd to Samsung
SONY TVs are done for and they're pulling out, when Galaxy comes 2nd to i-Phone that its, and Samsung are out of the phone business, same for SONY mobile division. If you aren't number one you can't make money and have to pull out *rolleyes*

If the XBoxTwo doesn't take off and doesn't sell, then that's when you see 3rd party and retail support dry up and MS have to pull out, even if it doesn't want too. Like one saw with the DC, Jaguar, Neo Geo Pocket .. You only have to walk into a shop to know when a system is in trouble and done for..

We aren't there just yet with XBox

So you're now resorting to talking about Sony TV's and mobiles for false equivalences? Why?

It's actually quite funny you mention Sony's consumer electronics division because a couple of years ago they adopted the exact same strategy that Microsoft are currently employing with Xbox in order to turn things around.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sony-strategy-idUSKBN0LM05X20150218

And then:

https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/29/12320782/sony-mobile-business-earnings-q1-2016


The high end consumer electronic device industry is tough (including consoles). The margins are small for a large proportion of the product life cycle and the margin for error is tiny (as Samsung saw with the Note recently and Microsoft with RROD). So actually, if you're not on first place then it can be a really tough industry to continue playing in if you are focused on making profits. The biggest reason you don't see more companies quitting is because of sunk costs.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I said after Three Rings of Death which cost MS over a Billion. Post the losses from the XBox division after 2009 up until the present, then we'll have a debate on so-called losses

Frankly, while we'l never know one way or the other I think you should read this post from the "Xbox has never been profitable" topic. It's worth noting that we don't know if the Xbox division solely has ever turned a profit because MS always bundles it in with other stuff. Beyond that there's not much of a conversation to be had IMO.

So we can all operate from the facts, here are the actual numbers Microsoft have reported every year since Xbox started. All figures are operating income, and I note what other business groups are lumped into it (since Xbox is never by itself). Note that these official Microsoft financials don't precisely line up to Psychotext's previously-quoted post. I'm not sure the reason for mismatch, but I've linked all the Microsoft reports so you can check them yourself.

Note that when a platform is listed without further explanation--e.g. "Xbox 360" or "Windows"--the figures include all associated royalties, subscriptions, accessories, etc. Only if segments are specified is anything left out.

Second, "consumer software" refers to educational and productivity titles.

Finally, the original Microsoft Surface platform is listed under its revised PixelSense name, in order to avoid confusion with the new Surface line of devices.

[b]Year ending
Jun 30,      Reported         Including[/b]
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar03/alt/item_seven.htm"]2002[/url]         -$  874m         Xbox, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar03/alt/item_seven.htm"]2003[/url]         -$  924m         Xbox, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar06/staticversion/10k_fr_dis.html"]2004[/url]         -$1.337b         Xbox, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar06/staticversion/10k_fr_dis.html"]2005[/url]         -$  485m         Xbox, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar06/staticversion/10k_fr_dis.html"]2006[/url]         -$1.262b         Xbox/Xbox 360, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar09/10k_fr_dis.html"]2007[/url]         -$1.898b         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Zune, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar09/10k_fr_dis.html"]2008[/url]          $  497m         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Zune, PixelSense, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, retail sales of Office and Windows
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar09/10k_fr_dis.html"]2009[/url]          $  169m         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Zune, PixelSense, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, retail sales of Office and Windows
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar12/financial-review/discussion-analysis/index.html"]2010[/url]          $  517m         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Zune, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, Windows Phone, retail sales of Office and Windows
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar12/financial-review/discussion-analysis/index.html"]2011[/url]          $1.257b         Xbox 360, PC/online games, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, Windows Phone, Android patent licensing
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar12/financial-review/discussion-analysis/index.html"]2012[/url]          $  364m         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Surface, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, Windows Phone, Skype, Android patent licensing
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar13/financial-review/discussion-analysis/index.html"]2013[/url]          $  848m         Xbox 360, PC/online games, Surface, consumer software and hardware, TV platform, mobile and embedded devices, Windows Phone, Skype, Android patent licensing
[url="https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/789019/000119312516662209/d187868d10k.htm#tx187868_10"]2014[/url]          $5.605b         Xbox 360/Xbox One, PC software and accessories, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows, Bing, MSN ads, all patent licensing 
[url="https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/789019/000119312516662209/d187868d10k.htm#tx187868_10"]2015[/url]          $5.095b         Xbox 360/Xbox One, PC software and accessories, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows, Bing, MSN ads, all patent licensing
[url="https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html"]2016[/url]          $6.142b         Xbox 360/Xbox One, Mojang, PC software and accessories, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows, Bing, MSN ads, all patent licensing
[url="https://www.last10k.com/sec-filings/msft/0001564590-17-014900.htm#ITEM_7_MANAGEMENTS_DISCUSSION_ANALYSIS_F"]2017[/url]          $8.288b         Xbox 360/Xbox One, Mojang, PC software and accessories, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows, Bing, MSN ads, all patent licensing

Note the primary takeaway: Microsoft have never provided operating income or gross margin figures for Xbox by itself, much less net profit numbers for the division. And recently there's much more consolidation of business segments, leading to even less clarity. Only Microsoft employees could know for sure how profitable the Xbox division is, whether all-time or in a specific period.

This means, paradoxically, that Paul Thurrott is in a much better position to know the facts than GAF members or even investors. He might have sources who really know, unlike the average person. Of course, his sources could also be mistaken or inventing things, so his statements are second-hand and should be evaluated cautiously.

Looking over what has been released, my personal estimation is that Xbox probably was profitable in FY 2011, 2012, and maybe 2013. These are the peak Kinect years, before Xbox One came along and ruined the party. Of course, I can't know if I'm right; but I do think this is the most plausible conclusion that can be drawn, given the narrowness of margins every year else, and the patterns of other divisions grouped with Xbox.


EDITED with new sources to regularize all figures as operating income.

I know but other than Fable what 360 In-House exclusives could MS boast that it can't today or have its In-House studios work on (if you must place Kameo,PDZ here) It was the same for the 360 days, then it was all about Halo, Gears, and Forza, hell MS even sold BUNGiE (it prized studio) and that was ok, MS isn't pulling out. For as long as the XBox brand been out, it played 2nd place to SONY in Europe and comes nowhere in Japan.

Not a lot really changed and on this place, it's like you cant make money or do well even in 2nd place. What next, when SONY TV's come 2nd to Samsung
SONY TVs are done for and they're pulling out, when Galaxy comes 2nd to i-Phone that its, and Samsung are out of the phone business, same for SONY mobile division. If you aren't number one you can't make money and have to pull out *rolleyes*

If the XBoxTwo doesn't take off and doesn't sell, then that's when you see 3rd party and retail support dry up and MS have to pull out, even if it doesn't want too. Like one saw with the DC, Jaguar, Neo Geo Pocket .. You only have to walk into a shop to know when a system is in trouble and done for..

We aren't there just yet with XBox

Were I in charge I'd acquire a bunch of studios and build relationships with other developers to make some new IPs. I'd be signing a lot of shit now for their next console, as it seems like they're not going to be doing a lot in that regard for the XOX.

They were actually in a good position about 3-4 years ago, before Phil Spencer started getting rid of studios like Lionhead, Team Dakota, Press Play and Twisted Pixel. They should have kept these teams on board and maintained relationships with Insomniac, Crytek, Obsidian, Remedy, Platinum, etc. They should be working towards building a broad range of diverse and intriguing exclusives to appeal all kinds of people to their console, not doubling-down on the HaloForzaGears setup that's getting utterly tired by now. They should be allowing their key studios the opportunity to try something new in the hope of scoring a hit new IP. Of course they can still make money being second (or more likely third) in the hardware market, but as time goes on and their line-up of first-party software diminishes they're giving people fewer reasons to play on their platform as opposed to their closest competitor (Sony), the technically far superior PC or Nintendo should they want a totally different look & feel.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Not only microsoft need exclusives...also game that also doesnt available on pc
MS decision to make their exclusives also available on pc(windows 10) kind of pouring oil into fire

i doubt 2018 will change anything if most of the exclusives also coming to pc

Oh brother...

 

[SgtCobra]

Well this thread has certainly become....something.

 

[IcyRhythms]

Not only microsoft need exclusives...also game that also doesnt available on pc
MS decision to make their exclusives also available on pc(windows 10) kind of pouring oil into fire

i doubt 2018 will change anything if most of the exclusives also coming to pc

This is the dumbest thing. People need to stop saying this.

The vast majority of gamers are casuals. They don't understand what exclusive means. They don't know that you can only get Halo on Xbox and Last of Us is only available on PlayStation. They just buy what they want and enjoy that experience. I promise you, the games for the current generation that have sold 2M-10M(more in some cases)are mostly made up of multiplatform games, and I'm not talking combined sales of XB1 and PS4. Both platforms software sales are dominated by multiplats. The console bundles that sell the best are always the ones with the most hyped AAA multiplatform games. Exclusives only matter to the hardcore, and those people are in the minority.

PC is also a very different market with very different needs/demand. We all know the majority of AAA multiplatform games sell better on consoles. The games MS put on PC have likely sold better on Xbox than they have on PC. PC gamers have an interest in those games, but the demand for them isn't as high as it is on consoles. Console only gamers live and breathe by the AAA market. PC is, as I pointed out, very different. MMO's, strategy games of varying types, simulations of many types, and of course MOBA's are what do really well on PC. There is no evidence of any kind showing that putting console exclusives on PC is hurting the Xbox brand.

 

[CaptainClaw]

This is the dumbest thing. People need to stop saying this.

The vast majority of gamers are casuals. They don't understand what exclusive means. They don't know that you can only get Halo on Xbox and Last of Us is only available on PlayStation. They just buy what they want and enjoy that experience. I promise you, the games for the current generation that have sold 2M-10M(more in some cases)are mostly made up of multiplatform games, and I'm not talking combined sales of XB1 and PS4. Both platforms software sales are dominated by multiplats. The console bundles that sell the best are always the ones with the most hyped AAA multiplatform games. Exclusives only matter to the hardcore, and those people are in the minority.

PC is also a very different market with very different needs/demand. We all know the majority of AAA multiplatform games sell better on consoles. The games MS put on PC have likely sold better on Xbox than they have on PC. PC gamers have an interest in those games, but the demand for them isn't as high as it is on consoles. Console only gamers live and breathe by the AAA market. PC is, as I pointed out, very different. MMO's, strategy games of varying types, simulations of many types, and of course MOBA's are what do really well on PC. There is no evidence of any kind showing that putting console exclusives on PC is hurting the Xbox brand.

Yh agreed, thats what I was trying to explain to him...though I will say that Although the games MS are putting on PC do better on console I still feel as though they aren't putting their all in and due to that are missing out on a large sum of PC gamers.

 

[GTR R35_Supra RZ]

Get real, MS earns more in 6 months than most countries total GDP. MS isn't going anywhere soon and it wouldn't be wasted 3 years or spending millions on R&D for the XBox One X. It's not even 20 years ago, but last gen it had all much 360 had much the same issues of lacking In-House teams, lack of exclusives compared to SONY. And speaking of last gen, when SONY was losing billions upon billions (not to mention market share) I saw no-one here saying SONY are pulling out or going to quit.

Ouch that stung..careful what you say around SonyGAF....not to mention those are straight up fax you mentioned.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Frankly, while we'l never know one way or the other I think you should read this post from the "Xbox has never been profitable" topic. I

So frankly we can't post any losses for the XBox Division from 2009 onwards (overlooking other fig posted here differ too) ... I rest my case

Were I in charge I'd acquire a bunch of studios and build relationships with other developers to make some new IPs

How many people here run a Studio, much less an entire division?. It's not as easy as some would make out and also when you do, it doesn't always work out, game not as good as planned or help with sales ... I like to see MS make a sequel to RECORE, work with SEGA and From to remaster Chromhounds and also green light Alan Wake II, but that's me as a gamer. not a person responsible for running a division. All I know is since Phil Spener taken charge, the XBox One is a hell of a lot better as a gaming system

 

[Team Andromeda]

They were actually in a good position about 3-4 years ago, before Phil Spencer started getting rid of studios like Lionhead, Team Dakota, Press Play and Twisted Pixel. They should have kept these teams on board and maintained relationships with Insomniac, Crytek, Obsidian, Remedy, Platinum, etc.

Did RYSE or Quantum Break or even Sunset Overdrive make the X Box into a sales monster? Most here seem to make out Quantum Break is poor and sold like crap.

It's just sheer 'PlayStation Generation' drivel; Let's find any excuse to knock MS, but hey its ok for SONY to close down studios like Studio Liverpool, Guerrilla Cambridge, Evolution Studios, Zipper, call an end to IP like Resistance, Socom, no longer work with Ninja Theory Factor 5, Free Radical Design, Game Republic , Relentless Software (and see all but one go bust) on PS SONY exclusives That's ok if you're SONY, my mistake.

 

[SmokedMeat]

So frankly we can't post any losses for the XBox Division from 2009 onwards (overlooking other fig posted here differ too) ... I rest my case

You have no case. Your entire argument is based in fantasy land.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...osses-hidden-by-patent-royalties-says-analyst

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/xbox-one-has-raked-400-million-loss-microsoft-8-months-1460471

https://qz.com/276242/microsoft-mak...n-from-skype-windows-phone-and-xbox-combined/

 

[Triggerhappytel]

So frankly we can't post any losses for the XBox Division from 2009 onwards (overlooking other fig posted here differ too) ... I rest my case

You "rest your case". But you literally said you wanted to have a debate about the division's profit/loss?

How many people here run a Studio, much less an entire division?. It's not as easy as some would make out and also when you do, it doesn't always work out, game not as good as planned or help with sales ... I like to see MS make a sequel to RECORE, work with SEGA and From to remaster Chromhounds and also green light Alan Wake II, but that's me as a gamer. not a person responsible for running a division. All I know is since Phil Spener taken charge, the XBox One is a hell of a lot better as a gaming system

I'm not a business exec and I don't claim to be. But they had a good line-up in the OG Xbox days under Peter Moore. They had a good line-up of studios last gen under Mattrick. Sony and Nintendo manage it. Maybe the fault lies with Phil Spencer. He may have made it better as a gaming system, but crucially more than ever it's lacking exclusive games.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

 

[gundamkyoukai]

This is the dumbest thing. People need to stop saying this.

The vast majority of gamers are casuals. They don't understand what exclusive means. They don't know that you can only get Halo on Xbox and Last of Us is only available on PlayStation. They just buy what they want and enjoy that experience. I promise you, the games for the current generation that have sold 2M-10M(more in some cases)are mostly made up of multiplatform games, and I'm not talking combined sales of XB1 and PS4. Both platforms software sales are dominated by multiplats. The console bundles that sell the best are always the ones with the most hyped AAA multiplatform games. Exclusives only matter to the hardcore, and those people are in the minority .

I really don't think people are that stupid even if they casuals
Maybe for a new IP but after 10 plus years people know you can only get GT\UC \GOW for eg on PS systems.
The same can be said for Halo , Forza or Gears .

 

[le.phat]

Did RYSE or Quantum Break or even Sunset Overdrive make the X Box into a sales monster? Most here seem to make out Quantum Break is poor and sold like crap.

It's just sheer 'PlayStation Generation' drivel; Let's find any excuse to knock MS, but hey its ok for SONY to close down studios like Studio Liverpool, Guerrilla Cambridge, Evolution Studios, Zipper, call an end to IP like Resistance, Socom, no longer work with Ninja Theory Factor 5, Free Radical Design, Game Republic , Relentless Software (and see all but one go bust) on exclusives That's ok if you're SONY, my mistake.

But what about Sony you guys ?

 

[Team Andromeda]

You "rest your case". But you literally said you wanted to have a debate about the division's profit/loss?

And the figures you provided didn't show a loss and also differed to a link posted by Melchiah. So can someone show official MS stock market reports showing losses from 2009 onwards, for the XBox division (read entrainment division) If so, we might be able to have a debate.

Sure you can point to MS being 2nd place, but one can't make money if you're 2nd. I take it any TV manufacturer that isn't number one, needs to pull out, same goes for any Mobile manufacturer or even network provider that isn't number one. You can make money and do rather well being 2nd place even in the console world...

 

[Team Andromeda]

But what about Sony you guys ?

In the world with out bias and fanboys. Most we know and see SONY and MS have closed down countless studios, stopped working with any number of once great partners, that's true for both corps
MS has always lacked compared to SONY for In-House studios, Japanese support and number of 'console' exclusives, that MS has always been nowhere in Japan and always 2nd to SONY in Europe that's been true of the OG XBox and 360.

To me, the system in the most trouble for exclusives would be the SWITCH. Crap 3rd party support, totally lacking any number of exclusives (that aren't Wii U ports) Laughable Online support and can't even say it got the biggest selling game of this generation GTA V, or the big upcoming AAA 3rd games like Destiny II, Wolfenstein II: Assassins Creed Origins , The Evil Within 2 to name but a few

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And the figures you provided didn't show a loss and also differed to a link posted by Melchiah. So can someone show official MS stock market reports showing losses from 2009 onwards, for the XBox division (read entrainment division) If so, we might be able to have a debate.

Sure you can point to MS being 2nd place, but one can't make money if you're 2nd. I take it any TV manufacturer that isn't number one, needs to pull out, same goes for any Mobile manufacturer or even network provider that isn't number one. You can make money and do rather well being 2nd place even in the console world...

Just because they didn't show a loss--because MS decided to bundle in Xbox division with other profitable divisions like Office and Windows--doesn't immediately imply that Xbox division was profitable. That MS stopped reporting Xbox-only division financial results means we cannot know whether they were profitable or not.

Also, the numbers in the post are official figures posted in MS's financial filings. Melchiah has already done the legwork you're asking for. If you want to look at the actual financial reports yourself to verify, don't ask others to do it for you. Do it yourself. Especially since you're the one making claims initially about the profitability of the Xbox division.

The burden of proof is actually on you, my friend.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

What has even happened in this thread?

Ouch that stung..careful what you say around SonyGAF....not to mention those are straight up fax you mentioned.

How you've managed here this long with your posts is also kind of amazing to me.

 

[345triangle]

Instead of senseless comments, please offer debate or insight. One sentence replies are shameful. He is right. Microsoft as a company is more healthier than Sony, especially before and during the 360 years. Sony was bleeding money from heavy losses on tvs, cameras, etc. They were doing so bad they hired an outside CEO for the first time to make cuts.

sony as a consumer company is doing pretty well right now largely because of playstation.

microsoft is doing very well as an enterprise company with a couple of comparatively insignificant consumer businesses on the side like surface and xbox, the latter of which is doing badly and has essentially been a billion-dollar boondoggle over the past decade and a half. xbox has never been remotely important to microsoft's bottom line.

i don't think you really understand how relevant the gaming businesses are to each company, or how each company operates in general. and kaz hirai is the CEO that made the major cuts, not howard stringer (assuming you were thinking of him).

 

[AngelOFDeath]

One things for certain, you can't change someone's thought when they are that deep in it.

I'd say if there were more of a variety of exclusives that actually reviewed well, you may have a console seller on your hand. Besides the heavy hitters, their other games just didn't push ahead of the pack and make a name for themselves.

 

[Ricky_R]

Andromeda brought some much needed life to this thread.

Ouch that stung..careful what you say around SonyGAF....not to mention those are straight up fax you mentioned.

Hahah man.

 

[Team Andromeda]

The burden of proof is actually on you, my friend.

LOL. I'm not the one saying MS XBox division is losing money. if you make a claim you need to back it up. So all we need are to see the losses from 2009

If you can't back it up, don't claim it to be true much less right

 

[Stanng243]

LOL. I'm not the one saying MS XBox division is losing money. if you make a claim you need to back it up. So all we need are to see the losses from 2009

If you can't back it up, don't claim it to be true much less right

The only indication I've seen recently is this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1419114

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Did RYSE or Quantum Break or even Sunset Overdrive make the X Box into a sales monster? Most here seem to make out Quantum Break is poor and sold like crap.

It's just sheer 'PlayStation Generation' drivel; Let's find any excuse to knock MS, but hey its ok for SONY to close down studios like Studio Liverpool, Guerrilla Cambridge, Evolution Studios, Zipper, call an end to IP like Resistance, Socom, no longer work with Ninja Theory Factor 5, Free Radical Design, Game Republic , Relentless Software (and see all but one go bust) on PS SONY exclusives That's ok if you're SONY, my mistake.

Sony has shut down a lot of studios too and I don't excuse them for that at all. Liverpool hurt (I was a fan of their output for over 20 years) and Guerrilla Cambridge and Evolution seemed senseless as they made excellent games which suffered from poor business decisions. If you search out the topics for the latter two I'm sure you'll see me complaining about it a lot. But I guess everything has to be SonyToo™.

Edit a couple of examples of you lying again claiming that we're being hypocrites not caring when Sony shut down studios:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=228139572

LOL. I'm not the one saying MS XBox division is losing money. if you make a claim you need to back it up. So all we need are to see the losses from 2009

If you can't back it up, don't claim it to be true much less right

It's not provable one way or the other because MS doesn't release Xbox financial figures by themselves. I don't think there's any more discussion to be had on the matter.

 

[SmokedMeat]

LOL. I'm not the one saying MS XBox division is losing money. if you make a claim you need to back it up. So all we need are to see the losses from 2009

If you can't back it up, don't claim it to be true much less right

Go back a page or two. I've already given you a few links to read showing their losses and how they try to make the Xbox division look better by lumping in their lucrative Android royalties.

But I think the fact that Microsoft isn't spending the crazy money on obtaining exclusives this generation, shows how much things have changed.

 

[sirronoh]

You're wasting your time lads. When someone is super committed to their beliefs despite lots of evidence that discredits those beliefs, nothing you say or do is going to change them.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

LOL. I'm not the one saying MS XBox division is losing money. if you make a claim you need to back it up. So all we need are to see the losses from 2009

If you can't back it up, don't claim it to be true much less right

I've personally made no claim, one way or another. My first post in this thread on this particular derail topic was to point out your error.

As far as I can see this entire thread of debate about Xbox profitability started with your claim (amid your persecution complex-fueled rant) that MS Xbox division was profitable, to which another poster (not me) posted to refute your claim.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Frankly, you don't seem interested in intelligent debate on the actual topic of this thread (i.e. MS exclusives), but instead you seem to want to engage in thread-derailing tirades whilst employing misdirection, straw-men arguments and non-sequitur, all to avoid accepting the actual facts that undermine the premise of your arguments.

 

[Okami Haundo]

Not only microsoft need exclusives...also game that also doesnt available on pc
MS decision to make their exclusives also available on pc(windows 10) kind of pouring oil into fire

i doubt 2018 will change anything if most of the exclusives also coming to pc

Microsoft has spent a lot of time in recent years trying to "unify" all of their businesses. It really doesn't make sense for them to treat Xbox and PC as completely different platforms when it comes to exclusive games. I think they just need more exclusives in general and maybe a better partnership with Valve.

 

[kevin1025]

Did RYSE or Quantum Break or even Sunset Overdrive make the X Box into a sales monster? Most here seem to make out Quantum Break is poor and sold like crap.

It's just sheer 'PlayStation Generation' drivel; Let's find any excuse to knock MS, but hey its ok for SONY to close down studios like Studio Liverpool, Guerrilla Cambridge, Evolution Studios, Zipper, call an end to IP like Resistance, Socom, no longer work with Ninja Theory Factor 5, Free Radical Design, Game Republic , Relentless Software (and see all but one go bust) on PS SONY exclusives That's ok if you're SONY, my mistake.

I think the issue here is even with all of the studios you mentioned, there's a lot more where that came from. That sizeable amount aren't that damaging when there are so many other games hitting the platform.