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[ronito]

https://www.facebook.com/johndehlinpublic/posts/880194542022296

So another possible excommunication coming our way?
This one is way more troublesome than Dehlin and Kelly personally.
I mean they're both apologists that came out and simply said that they didn't believe DC132, which I've met plenty of TBMs who don't.
So we're saying we still believe in polygamy now?

 

[Thaedolus]

Which is weird, because that other couple which wrote the blog denouncing section 132 had a 70 intercede in their discipline. It's like the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

 

[Yoritomo]

And they're ex'ed.

Just sent our resignation letter. I don't have anything left in me that likes mormonism.

 

[Doodis]

And they're ex'ed.

Just sent our resignation letter. I don't have anything left in me that likes mormonism.

I think I'm damn close to following you. My wife has asked me not to, but I seriously don't think I can support it in any way, shape or form anymore.

 

[Thaedolus]

Damn. The more I see stuff like this, the more I think John Larsen might be right about the future church become smaller and smaller, and more and more hardline/culty. It's actually really scary to think about my friends and family still in it :\

 

[ronito]

I don't know if honestly we'll ever send in our resignations. Sometimes I get so disappointed that I'm close to doing it, but then I usually pull back and think that it doesn't really change anything. We'll have to see.

On the changing view of the church. I don't think it can be denied that the church is changing. It is by all realistic measures shrinking. That will lead to it becoming even more insular (which is something because it can be pretty insular already).

But I don't necessarily believe that it will get more fundamentalist because of this. I do think that the people that are already sorta fundy will get more so and that insular areas of the church (ahem...Utah County) will become much more so.

But I really see that there are in essence three groups of members:
1) People that don't know the issues with the church and don't care enough to know. This group tends to be shrinking in my observation as when they do come across the issues they tend to just become inactive.
2) People that know the issues with the church and become cafeteria mormons and stay simply because it's all they've ever known. Those "even if the church isn't true, I've lead a good life" types. I find most people I know that are still in the church are firmly in this camp.
3) People that are the culty/insular type that it doesn't matter if they know the issues or not they will not stray from that path. I find these are fewer but growing as people apply the "equal and opposite reaction" to their lives

 

[Yoritomo]

It makes things easier to explain and removes any incentive to be anything but genuine when interacting with my parents.

 

[ronito]

So it seems Rock Waterman is next in the purge.

Anyone got the skinny on this?

 

[Yoritomo]

I don't have the skinny on Rock Waterman, but Coffee -> morning shit is amazing.

WoW followers are missing out.

 

[Thaedolus]

I don't have the skinny on Rock Waterman, but Coffee -> morning shit is amazing.

WoW followers are missing out.

It's a daily ritual in our house.

As for Rock Waterman: I have some NOM family members who are publicly voicing disdain over this. Damn.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

I don't know if honestly we'll ever send in our resignations. Sometimes I get so disappointed that I'm close to doing it, but then I usually pull back and think that it doesn't really change anything. We'll have to see.

On the changing view of the church. I don't think it can be denied that the church is changing. It is by all realistic measures shrinking. That will lead to it becoming even more insular (which is something because it can be pretty insular already).

But I don't necessarily believe that it will get more fundamentalist because of this. I do think that the people that are already sorta fundy will get more so and that insular areas of the church (ahem...Utah County) will become much more so.

But I really see that there are in essence three groups of members:
1) People that don't know the issues with the church and don't care enough to know. This group tends to be shrinking in my observation as when they do come across the issues they tend to just become inactive.
2) People that know the issues with the church and become cafeteria mormons and stay simply because it's all they've ever known. Those "even if the church isn't true, I've lead a good life" types. I find most people I know that are still in the church are firmly in this camp.
3) People that are the culty/insular type that it doesn't matter if they know the issues or not they will not stray from that path. I find these are fewer but growing as people apply the "equal and opposite reaction" to their lives

W/r/t type 2, I think Jon Krakauer covers this in Under the Banner of Heaven, or maybe I read it elsewhere but there's been a rise of people who are "socially" religious. Meaning they participate in a religious group not so much because they believe in Jesus or God or the Bible but because it provides them with a stable social network and regular social outlet. I think for people who have been in the church a long time and don't live in huge areas I could understand staying in the church simply because it would be too hard socially for them to do otherwise, even if they are largely non believers.

 

[ronito]

I will have to admit that it's been hard for the wife and I to make friends outside of the church since we left. We just sorta took it for granted that we'd always have a pre-packaged set of friends where ever we moved. Without the church it's sorta hard for someone who's never learned to make friends without a church to learn how.

 

[Doodis]

So it seems Rock Waterman is next in the purge.

Anyone got the skinny on this?

Listened to his Mormon Stories interview this morning. He has a date set for his disciplinary council. His story is different from recent excommunications (Dehlin, Calderwoods) in that he is a firm believer in the restored gospel and Book of Mormon, but thinks the current corporation/leadership has lost its way. Sounds like he doesn't really attend church anymore, but has a blog that's garnered a following.

I will have to admit that it's been hard for the wife and I to make friends outside of the church since we left. We just sorta took it for granted that we'd always have a pre-packaged set of friends where ever we moved. Without the church it's sorta hard for someone who's never learned to make friends without a church to learn how.

I think this one of the reasons my wife won't even consider the possibility that the church isn't true. Her entire social network is tied into the church, and losing that would be very difficult for her. As much as it sucks for me, I honestly can't blame her for not wanting to lose that.

 

[ronito]

Truth be told, my wife and my social life hasn't really recovered even though it's been years.
I travel for work so my time at home is limited which makes it hard. We've managed to make a few acquiantences but they're busy with kids too so getting together is like a quarterly thing at best. Sucks.

 

[Brianemone]

Truth be told, my wife and my social life hasn't really recovered even though it's been years.
I travel for work so my time at home is limited which makes it hard. We've managed to make a few acquiantences but they're busy with kids too so getting together is like a quarterly thing at best. Sucks.

Join a club or something dude, find people that have similar interests. Plenty of people out there that don't have kids and everyone likes making new friends (except for assholes, but they aren't worth the effort anyway).

 

[ronito]

Yeah I've been able to find very few clubs but they all meet on the week days when I work so no luck there

 

[Thaedolus]

I will have to admit that it's been hard for the wife and I to make friends outside of the church since we left. We just sorta took it for granted that we'd always have a pre-packaged set of friends where ever we moved. Without the church it's sorta hard for someone who's never learned to make friends without a church to learn how.

You can be my friend Ron <3

But I feel you. Outside of classmates from my wife's graduate program, I haven't met too many folks since relocating, and I work from home which doesn't help. Luckily she's got family in the area which keeps us out and about. It's still hard not feeling like an odd man out no matter the context...

 

[Thaedolus]

So yeah, L. Tom Perry passed. He always seemed like one of the nicer ones to me...I have a fond memory of him speaking to my roommates and me in Logan circa 2003...I have to believe that guys like him think they're doing what's right, regardless of everything else. I just can't bring myself to think the top 15 all know it's a fraud and are just keeping the system in place. I think, at the end of the day, they were all victimized as much as anyone else.

I've seen some vitriol directed toward him. I don't get it. He probably meant well. I hope for the best for his family.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6745&sid=009af5d1f8a3cba3ae44bc01a64113b5

Here comes the next shit storm for the Church.

 

[AlteredBeast]

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6745&sid=009af5d1f8a3cba3ae44bc01a64113b5

Here comes the next shit storm for the Church.

As I have always maintained, I believe that gays should be allowed to get married, but I also believe, as an active member of the church, that the only ordained marriage is between a man and a woman.

I am the financial secretary of my ward and the bishop and counselors were all reasonably tolerant, all things considered.

 

[Thaedolus]

As I have always maintained, I believe that gays should be allowed to get married, but I also believe, as an active member of the church, that the only ordained marriage is between a man and a woman.

I am the financial secretary of my ward and the bishop and counselors were all reasonably tolerant, all things considered.

I was discussing the future of the church with a family member last night. I've never really seen a middle of the road solution for married gay members...either they get full equality status (which necessitates women receiving the priesthood and eliminates gender roles entirely) and the church essentially breaks the plan of salvation, or the church continues on denying the reality that gender and sexuality are not a binary or eternal qualities.

Then it dawned on me: perhaps the church will recognize "temporal" gay marriages, and stop treating homosexuality as a sin (within the confines of marriage). No temple sealings, but you'd still be temple worthy as a gay man/woman in a married relationship.

Seems like a reasonable step in the right direction at least. But it will probably never happen.

 

[CorvoSol]

Maybe your problems with this thread have more to do with you than this thread?

Probably. I'm crazy in the head.


Also I've never been one of those "I'm going to delete my facebook!" people but I swear if I have to see one more "No this is what President Uchtdorf REALLY meant when he said Mormons could support same-sex marriage on social media" blog posts so help me God I just might.

Like, holy shit. It's one thing to disagree. It's one thing to be disappointed. But sweet mercy, I've never met a more smug and sore set of losers than the American Saints at this juncture.

Should've stayed in China.

 

[Doodis]

So, yeah, sweet stone, bro.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2802019-155/mormon-church-to-release-more-documents

 

[Thaedolus]

So the MMM burial sites have been found

Kind of makes me wonder, with how easy they were to find, if there was some sort of disincentive to find it them. Nahhh..

 

[ronito]

woo! three more rich white guys for apostles! About high time!!

 

[Thaedolus]

LOL

GA is going to invent a dumb new word in conference to turn it into a meme, son sets up websites to sell merchandise a week before the talk.

How blatant and distasteful can you get?

woo! three more rich white guys for apostles! About high time!!

Well duh, if you're not rich you're not righteous.

 

[ronito]

So Huffington Post did a story on the mornons today

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-...g-me_b_8299882.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

And it sorta highlights what I think the problem with doing any sort of mormon journalism. I mean reading the story you'd think that the exodus of members from the church was due to prop 8, when really it's more nuanced than that. Yes, for some Prop 8 was the reason they got out, for many (myself included) Prop 8 was just one of the final straws that let people face and act on their concerns with the church and for many others prop 8 had nothing to do at all with their disaffection. The issue that I see is that when it comes to journalism and mormonism it's a bit difficult to get a good story because either an outsider will over simplify things to fit their narrative like in this artice (Prop 8 was the reason for the mormon exodus), or it's written by an active member who will do everything to spin it in a positive light (Prop 8 separated the faithful from the pretenders) or an former member who will try to spin it in a negative light (The money that the church spent on prop 8 could've cured cancer. The church hates kids with cancer). There's very few well written articles about the church.

Also, I do find it interesting that now it's no longer a controversial topic to bring up that there's a mormon exodus. Before it was like "just a few jack mormons are leaving, nothing to see here" but now even my most ardent TBM friends admit there's an exodus going on.

 

[Yoritomo]

So Huffington Post did a story on the mornons today

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-...g-me_b_8299882.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

And it sorta highlights what I think the problem with doing any sort of mormon journalism. I mean reading the story you'd think that the exodus of members from the church was due to prop 8, when really it's more nuanced than that. Yes, for some Prop 8 was the reason they got out, for many (myself included) Prop 8 was just one of the final straws that let people face and act on their concerns with the church and for many others prop 8 had nothing to do at all with their disaffection. The issue that I see is that when it comes to journalism and mormonism it's a bit difficult to get a good story because either an outsider will over simplify things to fit their narrative like in this artice (Prop 8 was the reason for the mormon exodus), or it's written by an active member who will do everything to spin it in a positive light (Prop 8 separated the faithful from the pretenders) or an former member who will try to spin it in a negative light (The money that the church spent on prop 8 could've cured cancer. The church hates kids with cancer). There's very few well written articles about the church.

Also, I do find it interesting that now it's no longer a controversial topic to bring up that there's a mormon exodus. Before it was like "just a few jack mormons are leaving, nothing to see here" but now even my most ardent TBM friends admit there's an exodus going on.

I've been amazed on my facebook. Any quote that shows doubt as a good quality gets huge pushback from people that are still in the church.

I thought some of the dumb stuff I posted has been innocuous but I basically got chewed out and almost cut out from the life of a childhood friend over one of them.

 

[ronito]

This is actually something that Corvo and I were discussing not too long ago actually. The exodus is going to change the church. While Corvo was hoping that it would move the church to be less "Utahy" I think the opposite will happen and I'm starting to see that already. With more and more people leaving that's going to just leave the most ardent of believers and they'll view the world as even more of a threat (Mormons already do so on a good day) and my guess is they'll skew hard to the conservative side. Maybe I'm wrong but so far from what I've seen that seems to be the trend. We'll see, all we really know is that the exodus will change the church. It's just a question of how.

 

[Thaedolus]

I posted my thoughts on the article in a private Phoenix Ex/Post/NOMormon group:

As antagonistic as I feel about the church and its LGBT relations, I felt like this article was a little too hostile and a little too hearsay based. Like, a million members leaving? Seems just sort of made up with fuzzy math. And "Mormon" seems to be used as a pejorative in most instances.

I dunno, I was on my way out before 2008 and Prop 8 definitely sealed my choice to leave, but articles like this feel a little too much directed toward those already in an echo chamber, which only serves to enhance dat persecution complex in members. I'd rather very politely and succinctly show them how their beliefs are dumb rather than approach it the way this guy does (though I certainly understand his hostility)

I just feel like this article is fairly poorly written and belongs more in the opinion section or something. And really a million people leaving? I find that very hard to believe. If you're assuming a 30% activity rate globally, (let's say 40% in the US) and half the 15 million members being Americans who would actually give a shit about prop 8, you're talking 7.5 million x %40 active = 3 million active LDS in the US, meaning somewhere in the vicinity of 1 in 3 American members have left since 2008?

I know I'm a trend setter but that seems absurdly high. I want to know where he's getting his numbers from.

And the idea of the church getting more liberal to appease progressives is clearly not going to happen, as you've all pointed out. The problem is you're talking about a small percentage of people who actually both care enough about these issues and want change. Even I don't necessarily fall strongly in that second category. I am giving less of a shit about the church each year, but I do care about the welfare of, say, my nieces and nephews being raised in this garbage. You compare that small percentage of liberals/progressives to the overwhelming majority of Mormons who don't want change, view change with hostility and as a sign of apostasy, then you know where the leadership has to go.

I think the path of the church is to weed out the progressives, stall growth (because the world is moving on, but they can still breed new Mormons), then the more conservative and ultra brainwashed guys come into power and take it even further to the right. I don't think there's a strong voice of opposition in the current 15 apostles, and get ready for a long tenure of David A. Dicktard.

Oh and on the actual size of the exodus: it must be substantial because of all the talks trying to assuage doubt and telling people to stay in the boat or whatever. In 2007 I didn't really know anyone who had left the church on the basis of anything more than they couldn't cut it (wanted to sin, lazy, whatever). I didn't know the "intellectual" problems of the church. Definitely nobody in leadership callings. Nowadays everyone seems to know at least someone, and even guys in bishoprics and stake presidencies are calling it quits and sometimes very publicly. You've got the LDS.org essays and openly talking about the rock in the hat. There's no doubt they've finally realized something has been going on, but I think the age of the internet and social media magnifies the voices of the apostates more so than previously possible as we can unite across geographical boundaries. Hundreds of thousands seem possible. A million? I'd need some hard evidence.

 

[CorvoSol]

This is actually something that Corvo and I were discussing not too long ago actually. The exodus is going to change the church. While Corvo was hoping that it would move the church to be less "Utahy" I think the opposite will happen and I'm starting to see that already. With more and more people leaving that's going to just leave the most ardent of believers and they'll view the world as even more of a threat (Mormons already do so on a good day) and my guess is they'll skew hard to the conservative side. Maybe I'm wrong but so far from what I've seen that seems to be the trend. We'll see, all we really know is that the exodus will change the church. It's just a question of how.

It's less, I guess, that I think you're wrong and more that I just desperately hope that for once you are.

I have to admit that presently I'm not where I was when I first started coming to this thread, and there's a half decent chance I'm just sorta lost at the moment. My faith feels intact from a cosmological stand point, but I'd be lying if I haven't felt sorta bitter about the way my life's played out of late. It's difficult not to assign blame in haste, and so I'll avoid saying overmuch here because I don't think I'm really ready to say half the shit I'm thinking these days.

But I won't deny that I feel super out of place these days in The Church, and that I strongly disagree with The Church's approach to young single adulthood. I also harbor a strong dislike of the forced fragility of perfect families we've somehow engineered, and the mockery our idolized perfect 'ought-family' makes of the reality of families. I've seen too many young people wed and divorce with equal speed to not feel that there's a blatant cultural issue we are refusing to address in the way we view sexuality, marriage, and being single.

But I'm at present too angry and bitter to speak on any of this without saying things I don't know that I fully feel.

I will say, though, that Sunday I damn near flipped out on a dude. Literally cornered me to remind me 1) how I need to get an eternal companion, 2) how I need to get a job so I can get an eternal companion, 3) how my siblings seem to be doing so much better at it than I am.

Fortunately Mama Corvo didn't raise me to be anywhere near the rage machine in real life that I am on the net, and I kept my tongue, but it's like: it's bad enough that all any given Sunday boils down to is a reminder that we've all failed to succeed at the social wasteland that our 20s are, without someone actually coming and reminding and validating our fears word for word, haha.

I digress, tho. I only hope the Church grows less Utah-centric because I feel that a globalized perspective could help the Church improve, though not fully alleviate, the sort of stagnant Utah culture it presently exports.

 

[Furyous]

It's less, I guess, that I think you're wrong and more that I just desperately hope that for once you are.

I have to admit that presently I'm not where I was when I first started coming to this thread, and there's a half decent chance I'm just sorta lost at the moment. My faith feels intact from a cosmological stand point, but I'd be lying if I haven't felt sorta bitter about the way my life's played out of late. It's difficult not to assign blame in haste, and so I'll avoid saying overmuch here because I don't think I'm really ready to say half the shit I'm thinking these days.

But I won't deny that I feel super out of place these days in The Church, and that I strongly disagree with The Church's approach to young single adulthood. I also harbor a strong dislike of the forced fragility of perfect families we've somehow engineered, and the mockery our idolized perfect 'ought-family' makes of the reality of families. I've seen too many young people wed and divorce with equal speed to not feel that there's a blatant cultural issue we are refusing to address in the way we view sexuality, marriage, and being single.

But I'm at present too angry and bitter to speak on any of this without saying things I don't know that I fully feel.

Tell me about it. I'm there in church but my heart is not in it and it has 100 percent to do with the culture. The problem for me is that I don't have anywhere else to go. It's either this or culturally going back to my happier albeit emotionally solitary days. I tried hard in the first few years to actually fit into the church but ran into this wall where nothing I do would ever be good enough to crack the wall of people not feeling comfortable around me. Realized a few years ago that it's a cultural thing and tolerance is literally frowned upon in the church. To acquiesce to anyone by not being a jerk is to essentially bow to world and everyone that grew up in the church has eternal truth because of lineage and time in the church. This eternal truth applies to everything and all situations so it utterly defeats the point of engaging in meaningful dialogue outside of predetermined conversation trees.

This exodus situation is real. Pew Research had the numbers at 15 million total with 6.4 in the USA and 8.6 abroad. The church won't go away tomorrow but it cannot become more conservative. Aligning the organization with the far right will do far more harm than good. I'm on record as telling a bishop I'd quit on the spot if the prophet ever publically aligns with the tea party.

Did anyone else's congregation sing god bless America or Star Spangled Banner after the Supreme Court upheld gay marriage? Found that weird and had words with a bishop in front of a Stake President. I literally asked where did that come from?

 

[Meesh]

I literally just saw this thread for the first time and wondered why there hasn't been a Jehovas Witness thread of JW mega doom.

 

[Doodis]

I only hope the Church grows less Utah-centric because I feel that a globalized perspective could help the Church improve, though not fully alleviate, the sort of stagnant Utah culture it presently exports.

Three new white guy apostles from Utah don't help this cause at all.

 

[ronito]

Tell me about it. I'm there in church but my heart is not in it and it has 100 percent to do with the culture. The problem for me is that I don't have anywhere else to go. It's either this or culturally going back to my happier albeit emotionally solitary days. I tried hard in the first few years to actually fit into the church but ran into this wall where nothing I do would ever be good enough to crack the wall of people not feeling comfortable around me. Realized a few years ago that it's a cultural thing and tolerance is literally frowned upon in the church. To acquiesce to anyone by not being a jerk is to essentially bow to world and everyone that grew up in the church has eternal truth because of lineage and time in the church. This eternal truth applies to everything and all situations so it utterly defeats the point of engaging in meaningful dialogue outside of predetermined conversation trees.

This exodus situation is real. Pew Research had the numbers at 15 million total with 6.4 in the USA and 8.6 abroad. The church won't go away tomorrow but it cannot become more conservative. Aligning the organization with the far right will do far more harm than good. I'm on record as telling a bishop I'd quit on the spot if the prophet ever publically aligns with the tea party.

Did anyone else's congregation sing god bless America or Star Spangled Banner after the Supreme Court upheld gay marriage? Found that weird and had words with a bishop in front of a Stake President. I literally asked where did that come from?

Perhaps its from growing up under Spencer W. Kimball and especially Ezra Taft Benson but I don't see how the church cannot go and skew hard right. It's what it does. There's 0% chance of the church publically aligning with the tea party, and another 0% chance of the main leadership saying anything like that. They stopped being firey long ago. But you can bet a lot of local leadership will skew hard that way.When people are scared they go to their roots and their roots are in that John Bircher movement.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

It's less, I guess, that I think you're wrong and more that I just desperately hope that for once you are.

I have to admit that presently I'm not where I was when I first started coming to this thread, and there's a half decent chance I'm just sorta lost at the moment. My faith feels intact from a cosmological stand point, but I'd be lying if I haven't felt sorta bitter about the way my life's played out of late. It's difficult not to assign blame in haste, and so I'll avoid saying overmuch here because I don't think I'm really ready to say half the shit I'm thinking these days.

But I won't deny that I feel super out of place these days in The Church, and that I strongly disagree with The Church's approach to young single adulthood. I also harbor a strong dislike of the forced fragility of perfect families we've somehow engineered, and the mockery our idolized perfect 'ought-family' makes of the reality of families. I've seen too many young people wed and divorce with equal speed to not feel that there's a blatant cultural issue we are refusing to address in the way we view sexuality, marriage, and being single.

But I'm at present too angry and bitter to speak on any of this without saying things I don't know that I fully feel.

I will say, though, that Sunday I damn near flipped out on a dude. Literally cornered me to remind me 1) how I need to get an eternal companion, 2) how I need to get a job so I can get an eternal companion, 3) how my siblings seem to be doing so much better at it than I am.

Fortunately Mama Corvo didn't raise me to be anywhere near the rage machine in real life that I am on the net, and I kept my tongue, but it's like: it's bad enough that all any given Sunday boils down to is a reminder that we've all failed to succeed at the social wasteland that our 20s are, without someone actually coming and reminding and validating our fears word for word, haha.

I digress, tho. I only hope the Church grows less Utah-centric because I feel that a globalized perspective could help the Church improve, though not fully alleviate, the sort of stagnant Utah culture it presently exports.

Sounds like you're getting to exactly the point I got to before I left the Church. I was a young, single, adult in a college ward with no plans to go on a mission and everyone else was either going on a mission or back from one and getting married. I had no friends at church and no one at church I wanted to hang out with. It kind of made moving on from the church a lot easier.

The basic widely espoused tenets of Mormonism are nice stuff, but I don't think the Church actually operates in the way it claims to, and that's the other part that made it really easy to go away from it. Like, if this was the one true church it wouldn't be so hateful and shitty.

Three new white guy apostles from Utah don't help this cause at all.

That was the other thing. Even being in California everyone seemed to skew so freaking heavily towards Utah Mormon that it just felt weird. Like I didn't even feel like I had grown up in the same church as fellow members despite a life time of going to Church and Church activities. If anything I almost feel like there could be a schism where you end up with the Utah Mormon Church and the Global Mormon Church, with the Global Mormon Church being a little less shitty. I bet outside of the United States the Church is probably actually a much nicer organization to be a part of, probably more focused on services and fellowship and less on right wing politics.

 

[CorvoSol]

Tell me about it. I'm there in church but my heart is not in it and it has 100 percent to do with the culture. The problem for me is that I don't have anywhere else to go. It's either this or culturally going back to my happier albeit emotionally solitary days. I tried hard in the first few years to actually fit into the church but ran into this wall where nothing I do would ever be good enough to crack the wall of people not feeling comfortable around me. Realized a few years ago that it's a cultural thing and tolerance is literally frowned upon in the church. To acquiesce to anyone by not being a jerk is to essentially bow to world and everyone that grew up in the church has eternal truth because of lineage and time in the church. This eternal truth applies to everything and all situations so it utterly defeats the point of engaging in meaningful dialogue outside of predetermined conversation trees.

This exodus situation is real. Pew Research had the numbers at 15 million total with 6.4 in the USA and 8.6 abroad. The church won't go away tomorrow but it cannot become more conservative. Aligning the organization with the far right will do far more harm than good. I'm on record as telling a bishop I'd quit on the spot if the prophet ever publically aligns with the tea party.

Did anyone else's congregation sing god bless America or Star Spangled Banner after the Supreme Court upheld gay marriage? Found that weird and had words with a bishop in front of a Stake President. I literally asked where did that come from?

As frustrating as it can be to run against the members who are armed with The Right at times, I think what's really, I dunno, broken me is the fact that I'm beginning to believe there is no future for me. It was one thing when I had only to accept that there was no present for me among the Saints. When I only had to deal with the fact that I was in the middle of an awkward phase that would pass when I met the right girl and gained my rights as a human being in the eyes of LDS society.

That carries with it a world's worth of frustrating paradigms worth examining, I suppose: Why am I viewing a wife, and not Christ, as my salvation? Why am I considering my late twenties the awkward phase of my life and not the teenage years of my life? How much of that is related to the fact that despite being a grown man I am encouraged to consider myself as younger than men who are half a decade my juniors simply because they've had sex? Why am I attaching such an inflated importance to something as utterly mundane as sex? Why am I viewing a human interaction so common and normal that practically the whole world experiences it as that which defines me as a person? How much of all this madness is my own fault and how much of this is really the product of a culture which is in dire need of some self examination?

Etc.

But what gets me is the mounting horror that this phase isn't a phase, but that this is something I can't really leave. After years of stories of 'this nameless young man got decked by his wife who left him because he did something the rest of mankind has viewed as inconsequential for years AND SHE WAS SO RIGHT TO DO IT AND YOUR WIFE WILL BE TOO." I've just begun to feel like I can't be with a woman I will be in constant fear of disappointing in that way, which leads to thinking I can't be with any woman of the Church, which in turn raises questions I am still presently uncomfortable discussing.

Three new white guy apostles from Utah don't help this cause at all.

Haha, for sure. I can't call into question their worthiness for the callings, but I won't deny being disappointed that that happened. Not as disappointed as hearing the former President of BYUI was invited to speak at Conference, but the latter is a personal, petty position.

Sounds like you're getting to exactly the point I got to before I left the Church. I was a young, single, adult in a college ward with no plans to go on a mission and everyone else was either going on a mission or back from one and getting married. I had no friends at church and no one at church I wanted to hang out with. It kind of made moving on from the church a lot easier.

The basic widely espoused tenets of Mormonism are nice stuff, but I don't think the Church actually operates in the way it claims to, and that's the other part that made it really easy to go away from it. Like, if this was the one true church it wouldn't be so hateful and shitty.



That was the other thing. Even being in California everyone seemed to skew so freaking heavily towards Utah Mormon that it just felt weird. Like I didn't even feel like I had grown up in the same church as fellow members despite a life time of going to Church and Church activities. If anything I almost feel like there could be a schism where you end up with the Utah Mormon Church and the Global Mormon Church, with the Global Mormon Church being a little less shitty. I bet outside of the United States the Church is probably actually a much nicer organization to be a part of, probably more focused on services and fellowship and less on right wing politics.

At present I hope I'm not falling away completely, because there is still much of the Faith that I hold dear, and there are still things I've done and said and beliefs I hold that help me to keep going. I can't deny that I'm not on the same page as others, though. I wouldn't say I don't have friends in the Church, but I don't really see myself as gungho about things as I once was, either. I'm sure if I skimmed back a hundred pages in this thread and read my posts from when I first started posting here I wouldn't even recognize myself. I'm sure the me of 5 years ago would be appalled by the me of the present.

I can't really separate the personal disappointment from the disappointment in Church culture just yet, which is why I'm still extremely uncertain about a lot of things.

It's just that lately . . . lately going to Church has kinda made me feel tired, instead of the rejuvenation I once felt. Lately things I hear seem to hurt instead of uplift.

In 3 days I'll have been home from my mission for 5 years. I don't think Young Single Adult life is meant to last that long, and as a consequence it's just sort of breaking me down. The same 4 FHE activities, the same 5 lessons at Church, the same cycles of meeting someone, getting even a little attached, then watching them vanish suddenly, only to see a defeated, morose version reappear later on.

It's just starting to wear me out.

 

[Doodis]

I'm sure if I skimmed back a hundred pages in this thread and read my posts from when I first started posting here I wouldn't even recognize myself. I'm sure the me of 5 years ago would be appalled by the me of the present.

Ha, when I started reading this thread several years ago, I was still a true believer. I came in here and was kind of blown away. "Why don't these people believe in the church anymore?" I thought to myself. It was this thread that started me on my quest to learn about the church's true history and ultimately led to me no longer believing the church's truth claims. Pretty crazy.

In 3 days I'll have been home from my mission for 5 years. I don't think Young Single Adult life is meant to last that long, and as a consequence it's just sort of breaking me down.

Don't be so hard on yourself about when you're supposed to get married. My wife and I were both 27 (and mormon) when we got married.

 

[Thaedolus]

My sister got married at 20, divorced before she turned 22, and married again at 28. She just got divorced again at 33. If I had a dollar for all the friends and family I know who got married too young and divorced after a couple years because they felt like they had to get hitched in order to get laid, or because it was their second mission or whatever...well, I'd have like 12 dollars.

With my sister it's particularly difficult because she feels like she's back at square one, 33 and single and no children. I don't even think they let people over 30 go to YSA wards do they? She's definitely looked down on by family members as if she's an infant because of her situation. But, she's taking a positive and healthy approach to it by focusing on herself, figuring out what she wants out of life and being happy with who she is...which is what I tried to get her to do in her 20's while she was hunting for a new husband. It didn't turn out, I think, because her second husband was also just looking for a wife, not necessarily someone he was in love with. They both had enough boxes checked for each other that they just got married, but weren't really compatible or in love. It happens all the time, because people are just bending to the pressure to get married.

I figured that shit out after dating too many Mormon girls who would love everything about me for 3 months, then bounce when they figured out I'd never take them to the temple. So I worked on being happy and single and making myself attractive to other girls, but not hunting down my wifey...it worked. My wife and I met when I was 25, she was 24, and we were both just happy being single and with our situations in life. That made us extremely attractive options for each other. We didn't rush anything in the relationship, we moved in with each other when the time was right (the horror my mother felt...ugh), and after two years of living together, I proposed. Got married a year later, been two awesome years since.

I think we have the healthiest relationship of all of my siblings/spouses for a few different reasons. One, we don't have external expectations on our relationship. We have things we expect of each other, and we talk about those things openly and candidly, but we aren't trying to appease someone else, or try to make ourselves look a certain way, or checking boxes on a list of what we need out of life. We don't have kids yet, and may never. Or if we do decide to have kids, we might adopt. But we didn't bend to the pressure to give my parents more grandkids, and my wife is going to be done with grad school with a great paying job, which would've been a nightmare if we were trying to raise kids. Maybe we'll just get another dog. Or maybe not. What makes us happy is we get to decide these things.

I had to stake that claim to my own freedom and choices. When I made myself heard loud enough, people began to back off and actually respected my "lifestyle." It's not easy, but it can be done...outside of the church. I dunno if I could've done all that as an active member.

Oh and if my wife was brainwashed to think all sex outside of marriage was evil and porn is an addiction and masturbation means she's not good enough for me, etc...this marriage would be dead too. The horror stories I've heard about the sex lives of my Mormon friends are awful

 

[Thaedolus]

Sidebar from the current topic, John Larsen is doing a sort of greatest hits for Mormon Expression and last week he reposted How to Build a Transoceanic Vessel. I have to say this is probably my single favorite Mormon-themed podcast episode ever. I listened to it on the first run and I'm giving it another go...it's pretty good stuff.

 

[Furyous]

As frustrating as it can be to run against the members who are armed with The Right at times, I think what's really, I dunno, broken me is the fact that I'm beginning to believe there is no future for me. It was one thing when I had only to accept that there was no present for me among the Saints. When I only had to deal with the fact that I was in the middle of an awkward phase that would pass when I met the right girl and gained my rights as a human being in the eyes of LDS society.

That carries with it a world's worth of frustrating paradigms worth examining, I suppose: Why am I viewing a wife, and not Christ, as my salvation? Why am I considering my late twenties the awkward phase of my life and not the teenage years of my life? How much of that is related to the fact that despite being a grown man I am encouraged to consider myself as younger than men who are half a decade my juniors simply because they've had sex? Why am I attaching such an inflated importance to something as utterly mundane as sex? Why am I viewing a human interaction so common and normal that practically the whole world experiences it as that which defines me as a person? How much of all this madness is my own fault and how much of this is really the product of a culture which is in dire need of some self examination?

But what gets me is the mounting horror that this phase isn't a phase, but that this is something I can't really leave. After years of stories of 'this nameless young man got decked by his wife who left him because he did something the rest of mankind has viewed as inconsequential for years AND SHE WAS SO RIGHT TO DO IT AND YOUR WIFE WILL BE TOO." I've just begun to feel like I can't be with a woman I will be in constant fear of disappointing in that way, which leads to thinking I can't be with any woman of the Church, which in turn raises questions I am still presently uncomfortable discussing.

In 3 days I'll have been home from my mission for 5 years. I don't think Young Single Adult life is meant to last that long, and as a consequence it's just sort of breaking me down. The same 4 FHE activities, the same 5 lessons at Church, the same cycles of meeting someone, getting even a little attached, then watching them vanish suddenly, only to see a defeated, morose version reappear later on.

It's just starting to wear me out.

Are you in my head right now? Swear I'm thinking the same things as you minus the growing up in the church part. I've invested so much time into this that I'm scared that if I were to turn away that I'd look like a loser in everyone's eyes.

I came into church as a convert and I refuse to believe a woman is my salvation as a wife. The whole sex in marriage thing is really really really confusing. Porn is bad as we all agree. However, if my wife isn't providing me with certain needs and we need tutorials on certain things (damn sure not me as I made sure to scratch that itch pre church) then why can't I look at porn? Porn by church standards is the SI swimsuit issue. I'll never forget meeting with a sister at church as two church leaders. I closed a door to speak with her privately so as not to share church details with everyone and she opened the door and ran away from me as soon as the meeting was over.

You've got it bad because you grew up in the church. The single shaming that goes on is appalling. Would they rather I failed at marriage then not be married until later on in life? Five years isn't a long time in reality because who finds a spouse in four years in reality? You're spending all this time and effort on something that has to happen by choice. Live your life and if it comes then cherish it. If not keep cooking and being a productive member of society.

With my sister it's particularly difficult because she feels like she's back at square one, 33 and single and no children. I don't even think they let people over 30 go to YSA wards do they? She's definitely looked down on by family members as if she's an infant because of her situation. But, she's taking a positive and healthy approach to it by focusing on herself, figuring out what she wants out of life and being happy with who she is...which is what I tried to get her to do in her 20's while she was hunting for a new husband. It didn't turn out, I think, because her second husband was also just looking for a wife, not necessarily someone he was in love with. They both had enough boxes checked for each other that they just got married, but weren't really compatible or in love. It happens all the time, because people are just bending to the pressure to get married.

I figured that shit out after dating too many Mormon girls who would love everything about me for 3 months, then bounce when they figured out I'd never take them to the temple.

^^^ See this is my fear. What the world would see as the dating process is the way a lot of my church peers think and experience marriage. I know someone that got married after going to two FHEs with a sister. They let people go to YSAs if on special circumstances like joining the church in their late 20's.

Oh and if my wife was brainwashed to think all sex outside of marriage was evil and porn is an addiction and masturbation means she's not good enough for me, etc...this marriage would be dead too. The horror stories I've heard about the sex lives of my Mormon friends are awful

The Mormon expression podcast's episode on pornography is spot on. That story about the woman divorcing her husband after catching him watching porn twice is true. SMH at people getting divorced over porn when one spouse doesn't want to have sex.

 

[CorvoSol]

Don't be so hard on yourself about when you're supposed to get married. My wife and I were both 27 (and mormon) when we got married.

See, in my head I'm finally reaching the point where I'm at peace with the fact that I'm not married, and if I'm plainly obvious I 1) don't really want to be at the moment and think it would be a terrible situation cuz I'm just really not in a position to have that going on at the moment and 2) shouldn't rush these things anyway.

It's just that sometimes the constant harping from people about how I need to do it gets the insecure, crazy part of my brain going again. Had a guy legit corner me at Church the other day to basically rub this salt in these wounds, haha.

So I worked on being happy and single and making myself attractive to other girls, but not hunting down my wifey...it worked. My wife and I met when I was 25, she was 24, and we were both just happy being single and with our situations in life. That made us extremely attractive options for each other. We didn't rush anything in the relationship, we moved in with each other when the time was right (the horror my mother felt...ugh), and after two years of living together, I proposed. Got married a year later, been two awesome years since.


I had to stake that claim to my own freedom and choices. When I made myself heard loud enough, people began to back off and actually respected my "lifestyle." It's not easy, but it can be done...outside of the church. I dunno if I could've done all that as an active member.

Oh and if my wife was brainwashed to think all sex outside of marriage was evil and porn is an addiction and masturbation means she's not good enough for me, etc...this marriage would be dead too. The horror stories I've heard about the sex lives of my Mormon friends are awful

1 is where I'm trying to get to
2 Is the issue I'm struggling with at present
3 I just want to jump in and say it's the other way around. There is no concept of 'a woman who isn't good enough for you' in the Church, unless it's 'a non Mormon woman' and even then if you're converting her with your dick or whatever the concept doesn't exist. And the idea of porn corrupting her or debasing her is unheard of because women cannot be conceived of as consuming such materials.

I mean that as literally as possible, by the way. Family Foundations a girl tried to point out to the professor that 'women struggle with porn just as much as men' because if we're going to make porn a sin we should at least finally admit it's a sin both sexes commit, but the professor COULD. NOT. ALLOW IT. He was like "yes totally" and then segued immediately into a clarification that porn for women is Twilight.

Family Foundations is, and I think I've said this before, Satan's work. If the Devil has any foothold in this world, if the Devil exists at all, it is in that classroom. I've never seen a mechanism more devoted to the systematic destruction of the Sons and Daughters of God as I have Family Foundations.

I loathe and despise that course, and if I could annihilate it from history I would view it as the greatest deed of my mortal existence.

Are you in my head right now? Swear I'm thinking the same things as you minus the growing up in the church part. I've invested so much time into this that I'm scared that if I were to turn away that I'd look like a loser in everyone's eyes.

There are times where I worry about other people's opinions, it'd break the hearts of many, I'm sure, but for me it has always been first and foremost a selfish thing. If I consider my own opinion of myself at no other point, I always go over it here. I'm pretty hard on myself, it's true, but like, on this one thing I have to be damn sure in either direction and at the moment I'm not at all sure what I think about anything.

In simple terms I was tired, and I got into Family Foundations. Family Foundations took a hammer to my connection to Mormon Culture and I'm just kinda struggling to sift the pieces at the moment.

I really cannot understate how much I hate that course and how I would greatly desire to spend all three wishes from a genie on eradicating it.

 

[Thaedolus]

^^^ See this is my fear. What the world would see as the dating process is the way a lot of my church peers think and experience marriage. I know someone that got married after going to two FHEs with a sister. They let people go to YSAs if on special circumstances like joining the church in their late 20's.

Exactly. My sister actually told me she knew within about a week of moving in with her second husband that things were going to be rough, but she stuck it out for about 5 miserable years because divorce is so frowned upon, and this would be her second. She also thinks the fact that they were married made her husband more apathetic because he didn't think divorce was even a possibility until it was too late. I've talked to her about living with a boyfriend before getting married and, while she still says she'd never do it because it's sinful, she feels like had she done that she never would have married husband 2. So for all the shit I got for living with my girlfriend, there's at least one family member who sees the wisdom in it.

And honestly, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows for my wife and me at first. We had some rough patches early on as we learned to share a living space with each other. I think trying to work that out while being in a (theoretical) eternal relationship would've been even harder because I'd have less motivation, less fear of losing the relationship. Moving out was and losing my significant other didn't require a court order or anything, so we worked our shit out and grew as a couple. I'm so glad we lived together before getting married.

The Mormon expression podcast's episode on pornography is spot on. That story about the woman divorcing her husband after catching him watching porn twice is true. SMH at people getting divorced over porn when one spouse doesn't want to have sex.

It's a natural result of the puritanical view of sex in church. It's incredibly damaging to tell people sex is literally the worst thing in the world after murder, but then when you're married it's amazeballs off the chains wonderful. Even just typing that out makes me cringe. How do you expect two virgins, who have no idea what they're doing or if they're even sexually compatible, to have a good sex life? How do you expect a girl, who's taught her whole life that her virginity and chastity is the most important thing ever, to want to have a guy deflower her? And how do you expect this guy, who's kept it zipped his whole life expecting to fuck like rabbits once the marriage happens, to just accept that his wife doesn't like sex? And he's a vile person for seeking other outlets?

It's insanity. Straight up insanity. And it happens all the time. These aren't exceptions to the rule, the successful sex life is the exception. When I was still dating Mormon girls in college, a few of them were happy to take things "too far" in the bedroom and the guilt and shame they felt the next morning was terrible. The night before they were pushing things further and wanting it just as much as me, but when they calmed down and the guilt set in...holy shit, I couldn't do it anymore with girls like that. Contrast that to non-LDS girls who had a "so when do we get to do that again?" attitude...it was really sad. I had to stop dating Mormons.

See, in my head I'm finally reaching the point where I'm at peace with the fact that I'm not married, and if I'm plainly obvious I 1) don't really want to be at the moment and think it would be a terrible situation cuz I'm just really not in a position to have that going on at the moment and 2) shouldn't rush these things anyway.

It's just that sometimes the constant harping from people about how I need to do it gets the insecure, crazy part of my brain going again. Had a guy legit corner me at Church the other day to basically rub this salt in these wounds, haha.

1 is where I'm trying to get to
2 Is the issue I'm struggling with at present
3 I just want to jump in and say it's the other way around. There is no concept of 'a woman who isn't good enough for you' in the Church, unless it's 'a non Mormon woman' and even then if you're converting her with your dick or whatever the concept doesn't exist. And the idea of porn corrupting her or debasing her is unheard of because women cannot be conceived of as consuming such materials.

I think getting to the point where you're at peace with being unmarried is a huge step, because that helps you exude self-assuredness and confidence, which is what people want in an SO. As for 2...well, it's a pro-con analysis you got to do. For myself, when I was 21 I decided that I wasn't going to "fake it till I make it" anymore in my search for a place in the church. In other words, I was going through the motions and doing what I was expected to do, not because I wanted to, but because it was expected of me. I didn't want to go on a mission, but I did it anyway. I didn't want to go to church, but I did it anyway. I didn't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, but I testified anyway in order to try to get a testimony. I agree with Mark Twain that the Book of Mormon is chloroform in print, but I read it cover to cover anyway so I could teach from it. But when I realized how miserable I felt even when I was checking all the boxes, and allowed myself for just a minute to consider that this was just like every other religion in the world and make believe, I was pulled out of it in an instant. House of cards kind of thing.

On 3, what I was getting at was a lot of women feel insecure when their man watches porn because he's lusting after some other woman with a perfect body and she's got stretch marks and a worn out vagina from pushing out 5 kids before the age of 30. That's the "not good enough" I was talking about. Again, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but my wife totally embraces the fact that I love looking at other chicks and I love looking at her, and putting porn on sometimes while we bang is actually a helpful tool. I couldn't ever see any of the LDS girls I dated wanting to try something like that...instead of sex being some shameful activity to be missionary only, we just have fun with it and try new things all the time. It's great. Oh and rather than feeling insecure about her body because she's been popping out babies, my wife's in the best shape of her life, runs 10ks and half marathons all the time and I'm actually the one who got fat, hah. And she's got tattoos which are hot.

So...tl;dr is date outside the church. Find a girl who wants to bang your brains out and likes porn. Don't get fat like I did.

EDIT

Just ignore that wall of text I wrote up and listen to Ballard lay it down. It's actually way less complicated than I made it out. Ballard's got it guys. Wake up and look around!

 

[CorvoSol]

I actually wanna retract the last part I directed at Furyous cuz it feels like I was being way too judgmental of his motives. I apologize for that, and I have to admit that it likely happened because you hit a little more deeply than I wanted to admit to myself, haha.

The thing for me is that like, the cosmological side of things I still believe, guys. I still believe in God, in Christ, in the Prophet and in the Book of Mormon. I still believe all of that.

I just don't believe in Mormons as a people, I guess? Which bothers me because it feels extremely judgmental, and as someone who is constantly balking at the judgment he faces in Church, I really don't want to be looking down my nose at anybody. But I just kinda feel like Mormons want to be a people but refuse to sit down and talk about the problems they, as a people, have.

Family's supposed to talk. Maybe it's time this family did.

 

[Thaedolus]

My wife's cousin fell out of love with the modern church, but still believes in the restoration and such. He and his wife are trying out Community of Christ. I hear lots of good things about it, and even someone like me (believe in none of it) would be welcome there because I do believe in being compassionate and Christlike, at least in the idealistic sense. Maybe give CoC a try?

 

[Doodis]

Corvo, I don't mean to deconvert you or anything, but have you checked out cesletter.com?

I was a firm believer. I was all in. Wife, kids, oldest son baptized. And then I looked into church history. I found out the Book of Abraham was a fraud. That Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist before he ever started the church, using the seer stone to charge people money to search for hidden treasure. That he married other mens' wives behind their backs.

Learning these things and losing my faith was NOT easy, especially considering that everything else around me was rooted in the church. For someone like you who is struggling with your life in the church, seems like now would be a good time to look into these things, if that's all that is keeping you in.

 

[Yoritomo]

Christ's teachings of a higher law in how we treat others still resonates with me deeply.

We have little kinda family home evenings in my house on Sunday nights still and we'll read from the Jefferson Bible to focus on what he taught.

I don't think Jesus' church exists at all today... just a bunch of churches about Jesus that throw in their own biases and beliefs and try to tie it to him.

You can leave religion and keep the good. There is power and fulfillment in altruism and service even without a hope for heaven.

 

[Thaedolus]

One of us...one of us...

 

[Yoritomo]

One of us...one of us...

I remember the feeling though. Even if the community of exmormons is super open and welcoming, confronting the realization that you might not die mormon is deeply painful. People sacrifice a great deal to remain. It upends your very identity. Removing each barb that your body and soul has grown accustomed to is deeply painful and leaves holes and scars behind.

The barbs used to support you albeit in a painful and emotionally costly way, when you remove them you're left with an open wound and no support.

It takes a while to realize that barb like influence of shame and social pressure was never how it should have been. It should have always been a shoulder or a hand outstretched to offer support.

Then you spend a while wondering how you got it so wrong and who you might have hurt while muddling through it all. I think I'm still in this stage.

 

[Thaedolus]

I remember the feeling though. Even if the community of exmormons is super open and welcoming, confronting the realization that you might not die mormon is deeply painful. People sacrifice a great deal to remain. It upends your very identity. Removing each barb that your body and soul has grown accustomed to is deeply painful and leaves holes and scars behind.

The barbs used to support you albeit in a painful and emotionally costly way, when you remove them you're left with an open wound and no support.

It takes a while to realize that barb like influence of shame and social pressure was never how it should have been. It should have always been a shoulder or a hand outstretched to offer support.

Then you spend a while wondering how you got it so wrong and who you might have hurt while muddling through it all. I think I'm still in this stage.

I'm not sure this stage will ever end, nearly 10 years later I'm still disengaging in different ways.