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[CorvoSol]

I remember the feeling though. Even if the community of exmormons is super open and welcoming, confronting the realization that you might not die mormon is deeply painful. People sacrifice a great deal to remain. It upends your very identity. Removing each barb that your body and soul has grown accustomed to is deeply painful and leaves holes and scars behind.

The barbs used to support you albeit in a painful and emotionally costly way, when you remove them you're left with an open wound and no support.

It takes a while to realize that barb like influence of shame and social pressure was never how it should have been. It should have always been a shoulder or a hand outstretched to offer support.

Then you spend a while wondering how you got it so wrong and who you might have hurt while muddling through it all. I think I'm still in this stage.

I think what I feel is still mostly this. It sounds cliche to bring up my mission, but I was fortunate enough that as a Missionary I had the chance to experience that. I had leaders who legit cared about me and whom I could trust and confide my problems in. I received guidance and correction instead of just judgment. I had a common goal and purpose.

At times I've recaptured that. Hell, I loved being at Church when I was in China because it felt that way. Because we were few and outnumbered there was a special sort of emphasis on helping everybody feel needed. Home Teaching was awesome because we got together and were honest instead of the polite front of all is well. Family Home Evening activities were basically us getting together and hanging out instead of "you must now find a way to fuck."

I sort of waver nowadays. Half the time I'm still very much attached to who and what I am. I don't want to throw away all I've said, done, and been. I suppose it's why I'm averse to really taking action at the moment. I don't want to do anything until I'm certain. At times I'm ashamed because I feel like the true crux of my problem is realizing I'm one of those religious people who picks and chooses what they want to live. It's just that there are a lot of times now where I just look around me and wonder like, how we've all gotten so off track.

There's a shitton of dissonance in my head, too. I never really cared about that, but it's there now. Like on the one hand I get the scriptural, and maybe even theological arguments against Homosexuality. But what I cannot get, what I cannot accept, is the approach to it people take. Christ sat amongst prostitutes and publicans. He saw faith in Romans and Samaritans. I can't imagine that Jesus would ever shun or loathe someone the way people shun and loathe gays.

Or the racism. Good Lord there's far too much of that. The Book of Mormon declares people of all races equal. It's cited in the goddamn Official Declaration ending the racist ban on blacks holding the priesthood. I could even see why the old and crusted can't let go of their sexism and racism, but when it's perpetuated by people my age it's baffling. When I hear people who served missions in Africa talk about how the Africans were less righteous in the preexistence, a doctrine that has been formally denounced, it's staggering.

It's not that I believe the Church is evil. I know that a lot of good is done, and when I see that good or I get to participate in it, I'm stronger and happier for it. It isn't even the realization that members are mortals who mess up as much as others.It's that there are so many who vehemently oppose what we should be doing.

Think I've said this before, but the thing that gets me most is that it almost feels like Church culture opposes the concept of repentance, rather than embraces it. So many talks about how men who masturbate have let a viper bite their face and will never be the same, or how porn or premarital sex will destroy irreplaceably something precious feel like we've missed the whole point of The Atonement.

I doubt I'd wish as strongly as I did for views to relax were it not for this. If public attitude toward the Sinner was more welcoming of his penance and less condemning in the hopes of prevention, I think life would be so much easier for people.

 

[Yoritomo]

I think what I feel is still mostly this. It sounds cliche to bring up my mission, but I was fortunate enough that as a Missionary I had the chance to experience that. I had leaders who legit cared about me and whom I could trust and confide my problems in. I received guidance and correction instead of just judgment. I had a common goal and purpose.

At times I've recaptured that. Hell, I loved being at Church when I was in China because it felt that way. Because we were few and outnumbered there was a special sort of emphasis on helping everybody feel needed. Home Teaching was awesome because we got together and were honest instead of the polite front of all is well. Family Home Evening activities were basically us getting together and hanging out instead of "you must now find a way to fuck."

I sort of waver nowadays. Half the time I'm still very much attached to who and what I am. I don't want to throw away all I've said, done, and been. I suppose it's why I'm averse to really taking action at the moment. I don't want to do anything until I'm certain. At times I'm ashamed because I feel like the true crux of my problem is realizing I'm one of those religious people who picks and chooses what they want to live. It's just that there are a lot of times now where I just look around me and wonder like, how we've all gotten so off track.

There's a shitton of dissonance in my head, too. I never really cared about that, but it's there now. Like on the one hand I get the scriptural, and maybe even theological arguments against Homosexuality. But what I cannot get, what I cannot accept, is the approach to it people take. Christ sat amongst prostitutes and publicans. He saw faith in Romans and Samaritans. I can't imagine that Jesus would ever shun or loathe someone the way people shun and loathe gays.

Or the racism. Good Lord there's far too much of that. The Book of Mormon declares people of all races equal. It's cited in the goddamn Official Declaration ending the racist ban on blacks holding the priesthood. I could even see why the old and crusted can't let go of their sexism and racism, but when it's perpetuated by people my age it's baffling. When I hear people who served missions in Africa talk about how the Africans were less righteous in the preexistence, a doctrine that has been formally denounced, it's staggering.

It's not that I believe the Church is evil. I know that a lot of good is done, and when I see that good or I get to participate in it, I'm stronger and happier for it. It isn't even the realization that members are mortals who mess up as much as others.It's that there are so many who vehemently oppose what we should be doing.

Think I've said this before, but the thing that gets me most is that it almost feels like Church culture opposes the concept of repentance, rather than embraces it. So many talks about how men who masturbate have let a viper bite their face and will never be the same, or how porn or premarital sex will destroy irreplaceably something precious feel like we've missed the whole point of The Atonement.

I doubt I'd wish as strongly as I did for views to relax were it not for this. If public attitude toward the Sinner was more welcoming of his penance and less condemning in the hopes of prevention, I think life would be so much easier for people.

Whether you stay or leave, just remember your life is your own. What you're going through probably isn't even unique to mormonism. It's just maturity. Being able to self diagnose and analyze your emotions is healthy. Introspection and even doubt are healthy.

I don't want to push you but I left because of exactly what you are feeling. Not the history, not anything else, but the fact that I have 3 daughters.

I never wanted them to hear that they would be a chewed piece of gum, or believe that their goal if someone were to impose themselves on them or try to hurt them was to do anything but survive. I don't personally believe but I still pray with my eldest daughter on occasion. If she chooses to believe then the savior I will frame and teach her is the one that loves unconditionally, as a father I will love her unconditionally regardless of any missteps she takes in her life and I'll teach her that a good man will not think she is less if she isn't a virgin on her wedding night.

I left because I couldn't leave any power to the church in instilling those damaging messages in her heart. I believed the church over my own parents throughout my adolescence. If they were less strict in their moral teachings I would favor the hard line of the church. I won't allow my unconditional love for my daughters to be usurped by scare tactics based on shame.

Frankly Corvo, being a grown up is about that balance of doubt, and regardless of what you have been taught in church or if you remain until your death a mormon, the journey of figuring out what YOU stand for is a great and necessary goal to living a fulfilling and happy life. Take the good, leave the bad, and add all the good you can. If that means remaining, then remain and make your life and the lives around you better. Any god of value should support a constant honest search for truth and goodness.

 

[ronito]

I had to read this twice and make sure that it wasn't a parody site.

But the church is announcing it will not allow children of same-sex couples to be members

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-to-exclude-children-of-same-sex-couples-from-membership

What the fuckity fuck fuck is this?! I guess that whole "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins" is only sorta an article of faith.

 

[Yoritomo]

I had to read this twice and make sure that it wasn't a parody site.

But the church is announcing it will not allow children of same-sex couples to be members

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-to-exclude-children-of-same-sex-couples-from-membership

What the fuckity fuck fuck is this?! I guess that whole "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins" is only sorta an article of faith.

That's gross. Glad I'm out. God, if he exists, has nothing to do with the church.

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven... unless they're being raised by two dads or two moms."

 

[ronito]

Honestly I'm just mad right now but you guys know I've always been one of those "I wont have my name removed." types. But this? I mean I have disavowed friends for less reprehensible behavior. How can I have my name tied to this? If they church taught me anything it's to have more integrity than that.

 

[Thaedolus]

Yeah....last year I was home with my siblings and parents only and they pressured me to go to church with them. I avoided the hard reasons and just said I didn't bring clothes or whatever, but...fuck this. This is why I won't go and smile and act like I don't care about what is preached from those pulpits. Fuck it so hard. I am so mad. Just posting what I did on Facebook about it was the absolute most restraint I could muster.

Making a kid repudiate his or her parents' "lifestyle." Fuck you very much.

Fuck you old cunts.

 

[Yoritomo]

Honestly I'm just mad right now but you guys know I've always been one of those "I wont have my name removed." types. But this? I mean I have disavowed friends for less reprehensible behavior. How can I have my name tied to this? If they church taught me anything it's to have more integrity than that.

It was the TBM in me that sort of pushed me to resign. I was ALL in for so long, that I couldn't just be casually out. If I left for moral reasons I left just to take that stand.

But everyone has their own circumstances. I did it because I know there were people I hurt while I was mormon due to my mormoness. I wanted to reject it formally.

Also I don't even feel an inkling of schadenfraude at this announcment. I just feel like mourning. No I told you sos, nothing. For some reason this just makes me sad and angry at the idiots running the organization, cause it sure as hell isn't run by Christ.

 

[Thaedolus]

Also I don't even feel and inkling of schadenfraude at this announcment. I just feel like mourning. No I told you sos, nothing. For some reason this just makes me sad and angry at the idiots running the organization, cause it sure as hell isn't run by Christ.

This. I don't even want to make jokes or poke fun or put a feather in my cap. It's just sad. This is going to hurt people. It's going to pull people from their families. It's gross and wrong. One of my friends from SLC called me last night because he was so upset, and like me his wife wasn't ever Mormon, so he wanted to vent to someone who understands. The mother of his child is now married to another woman. Almost instantly I was on the phone by someone negatively affected by this. There's no way this doesn't immediately backfire in so many areas...

 

[ronito]

That's the thing. Mormons like to be like "See? You're angry and bitter and offended!"

And this time? Yes. You bet your ass I'm angry, bitter and offended. I'm all that because the church is supposed to be better than this. I might not be active in the church but I always held out hope that the church would be that organization for good that they purport to be. That I could say, "Yes, I no longer practice, but it was a good organization." But with this? No. It's supposed to be better than this. It's like finding Richard Simmons has gained 200lbs and is living in a McDonalds. But it's not even that because in the end he'd only be hurting himself. Here you're punishing people by association. I have had LGBT friends that have reached out as seriously hurt, depressed and worried about this on many many levels. Some are worried for their kid's salvation, others are worried about their family being ripped apart and to what end?

Don't give me that apologist bullshit of "Oh it's because they don't want the children to have to lose their home and support because of a disagreement with their parents!" That's apologist tripe on the level of "The horses were actually Tapirs and deer!" . If that were true why make them disavow their parents after they're 18 to get baptized? It serves no purpose if your sole concern is for the well being of the child. It's petty and spiteful. And if God requires it, then he's a petty, spiteful god that's not worthy of being worshiped. My kids have friends whose parents I completely disagree with and find to be bad people. But I would never go to their kids and be like "You're not welcomed here. I guess I might let you in after you're 18, but only if you disavow your parents." I'd get it if the kids themselves were assholes and bad people, but that's not what's being done here. It's simply "your parents are the same sex? Well, I want nothing to do with you until you separate from them." I'm not that petty, I honestly don't associate with people that are that petty. I don't understand why people are OK with a god that's that petty.

What I'm sorta stunned by though is the general reaction. Of course non-mormons, and exmormons are angry as hell but the surprising part of it is the almost complete radio silence from active mormons. I have heard small peeps of "Well it's a compassionate thing about not putting the kids in a bad situation" from the staunchest, but I don't think even they believe it and those type of people are never really taken seriously anyway. The only other thing from the literally dozens of mormons on my facebook I heard were just 2 people saying they were "confused" and that was it. When prop 8 was around mormons everywhere were like "yeah! Here's why the church is right!" and when city creek came around they were like "Here's why it's ok!" and the 'just a few months short of her 15th birthday' essay came out they were like "It's awesome how the church has nothing to hide!" But with this? Silence.

 

[Yoritomo]

That's the thing. Mormons like to be like "See? You're angry and bitter and offended!"

And this time? Yes. You bet your ass I'm angry, bitter and offended. I'm all that because the church is supposed to be better than this. I might not be active in the church but I always held out hope that the church would be that organization for good that they purport to be. That I could say, "Yes, I no longer practice, but it was a good organization." But with this? No. It's supposed to be better than this. It's like finding Richard Simmons has gained 200lbs and is living in a McDonalds. But it's not even that because in the end he'd only be hurting himself. Here you're punishing people by association. I have had LGBT friends that have reached out as seriously hurt, depressed and worried about this on many many levels. Some are worried for their kid's salvation, others are worried about their family being ripped apart and to what end?

Don't give me that apologist bullshit of "Oh it's because they don't want the children to have to lose their home and support because of a disagreement with their parents!" That's apologist tripe on the level of "The horses were actually Tapirs and deer!" . If that were true why make them disavow their parents after they're 18 to get baptized? It serves no purpose if your sole concern is for the well being of the child. It's petty and spiteful. And if God requires it, then he's a petty, spiteful god that's not worthy of being worshiped. My kids have friends whose parents I completely disagree with and find to be bad people. But I would never go to their kids and be like "You're not welcomed here. I guess I might let you in after you're 18, but only if you disavow your parents." I'd get it if the kids themselves were assholes and bad people, but that's not what's being done here. It's simply "your parents are the same sex? Well, I want nothing to do with you until you separate from them." I'm not that petty, I honestly don't associate with people that are that petty. I don't understand why people are OK with a god that's that petty.

What I'm sorta stunned by though is the general reaction. Of course non-mormons, and exmormons are angry as hell but the surprising part of it is the almost complete radio silence from active mormons. I have heard small peeps of "Well it's a compassionate thing about not putting the kids in a bad situation" from the staunchest, but I don't think even they believe it and those type of people are never really taken seriously anyway. The only other thing from the literally dozens of mormons on my facebook I heard were just 2 people saying they were "confused" and that was it. When prop 8 was around mormons everywhere were like "yeah! Here's why the church is right!" and when city creek came around they were like "Here's why it's ok!" and the 'just a few months short of her 15th birthday' essay came out they were like "It's awesome how the church has nothing to hide!" But with this? Silence.

My liberal mormon friends who otherwise defend the church are really hurting from this one. I've only really reached out to share my love for them, I don't want to muddy the waters because they have a hard road ahead and hard decisions to make. Decisions that can cause enough strife to break apart families.

 

[Thaedolus]

Are the articles of faith considered canon? Like you said, Ron, this flies directly in the face of #2. How does someone reconciling punishing (and this is punishment) a child for their parents' actions?

 

[ronito]

I have a friend who's father was busted for child pornography. My friend was still OK to be baptized and all that jazz. Thank god his father didn't do anything seriously bad, like have a male partner or something like that.

 

[Yoritomo]

I still don't understand. The only way I understand it is if I consider the church actively trying to keep more liberal and non nuclear family style members out. I get that the way forward is to protect the beliefs and practices of the most faithful tithe payers but this is gross.

I mean why? Yes I know you can explain why but even in my dislike of the church this feels like a bridge too far and I really still hope it was done in ignorance without thinking it through rather than a calculated choice to excise those that are sympathetic to gay marriage and more unique families.

It's such a huge departure from This talk from Chieko Okazaki

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/strength-in-the-savior?lang=eng

That's the church I loved.

 

[CorvoSol]

I have nothing to say about all of this beyond the fact that I'm baffled, frustrated and disappointed.

This isn't what I spent two years bleeding and sweating and fighting for.

This just can't be.

 

[Doodis]

Honestly I'm just mad right now but you guys know I've always been one of those "I wont have my name removed." types. But this? I mean I have disavowed friends for less reprehensible behavior. How can I have my name tied to this? If they church taught me anything it's to have more integrity than that.

My wife asked me not to have my name removed several months back. But I just don't think I can have my name supporting the church in any way moving forward. I think it's time to send in my resignation.

Don't give me that apologist bullshit of "Oh it's because they don't want the children to have to lose their home and support because of a disagreement with their parents!"

I don't have too many hardcore mormons left on my Facebook feed, but I did have one guy from my mission post positively about it. All the comments kept saying, "This is a good thing! It's protecting the children from having to choose between their parents and the church." Such a bullshit spin. It's not protecting them. It's alienating them.

 

[Furyous]

I've asked my bishop for clarification about this stance in reference to article of faith number two.

Moments like these make me reconsider what I'm doing in the church especially in light of my age relative to the average age of young single adults.

What was wrong with the policy before? This helps the church in the far right conservative communities and further ties them to the religious right so in a way it's kind of a worldly stance. Why punish children for the sins of their parents? These are young children who had nothing to do with their parents decisions, choices, and whatever the proper term associated is. The karma that comes from this will be unbearable at some point. This move is so unnecessary that it's not even funny.

Members are all like so what? This actually hurts recruitment everywhere. That 6.4 million number could go down at some point.

 

[ronito]

Anecdotal, I know, but on Reddit there's a lawyer that processes church resignations for free and he's said that one point last night he got 200 resignation requests in 3 hours.

Like I said I've always been sorta reticent to do the name removal thing, but I'll be honest. Right now I'm feeling like disavowing the church the way an 18 year old kid would have to disavow his gay parents before joining.

Better take a few days to let the sting of disappointment subside and then decide. But I don't want to get the point where there's no line where it's like "If you didn't do anything about this then, there's never going to be a point that's too far for you."

 

[Thaedolus]

I wish I could resign again.

 

[Doodis]

Anecdotal, I know, but on Reddit there's a lawyer that processes church resignations for free and he's said that one point last night he got 200 resignation requests in 3 hours.

Like I said I've always been sorta reticent to do the name removal thing, but I'll be honest. Right now I'm feeling like disavowing the church the way an 18 year old kid would have to disavow his gay parents before joining.

Better take a few days to let the sting of disappointment subside and then decide. But I don't want to get the point where there's no line where it's like "If you didn't do anything about this then, there's never going to be a point that's too far for you."

I've had his contact info saved for months now, waiting for the right time. I don't want to be hasty, either, but man, this feels like a good time to do it.

 

[Thaedolus]

And it begins. From an active LDS social worker friend of mine:

There's already people in crisis. Social workers at the LGBT community center in salt lake have been up all night with people wanting to commit suicide. It's so sad.
But Jonny, the church is just trying to protect the children. (Poop emoticon)

Another acquaintance on facebook

Here's reality. I have a friend at a BYU university, she has 2 Moms who raised her in the church. One Mom is active in the church. She lives away at school. Tonight she got a call from the Stake president at the university wanting to discuss her relationship with her family. She didn't know about the announcement at the time and had to ask some questions. She has an appointment already where she understands/expects that she will be expected to disavow her family AND not return home to live with them between terms. She is 20. If she doesn't agree to kick herself out of her family she will be kicked out of BYU. That is the reality. There is no rosey rationalization for this. Its just wrong. Even if she had a window to work with so that she didn't face getting kicked out and she could simply finish out her schooling and new students could know ahead of time they would be subject to the policy. It messes with innocent people's lives in damaging ways. I just feel to say there is some respectable silver lining is putting lipstick on pig here.

And finally:

I have a friend who's daughter was scheduled to be baptized tomorrow. She shares joint custody with her gay former husband. Because of this new policy, the daughter's baptism has been cancelled.

I have a pit in my stomach.

EDIT

Another:

This church is anti-family.

 

[CorvoSol]

Think the hardest part for me right now is reading all the Church members' posts on Facebook as drawing lines in the sand. If you're not a hundred percent behind the Presidency on this boggling, blindingly hypocritical move, you've lost the faith, are unfit for the Kingdom, and you should accept you're a tare being sorted from the wheat.

Because times are never trying enough that the Members cannot make them worse on the flagging testimonies of their brothers and sisters.

oh Jesus I don't want to go to Church Sunday. I don't want to hear people talking about this.

 

[CorvoSol]

Because, you know, Jesus didn't sit with Prostitutes and Publicans.

Because Jesus didn't extol the Faith of a Roman above that of all of Israel.

Because one of Jesus' most famous parables doesn't star an actual heretic being more kindly than righteous church members on the side of a road.

Because Jesus of Nazareth's entire life story, isn't about an outsider who is, to quote Isaiah, 'despised and rejected of men.'

Because Elder Holland didn't deliver a conference talk about how "none were with Him" and that as repayment for that we ought to make sure we never abandon Him or others.

Because Christianity, the Atonement, the Plan of Salvation are about excluding people who aren't like us and not about Love, Hope, Acceptance and Redemption.

Because George Albert Smith never said the Christian way is to love others into doing things, not berate or force them.

Because Jesus never said, "Come follow me, all ye who are heavy laden."

 

[ronito]

It's sad.
It's one of the reasons I left the church was that I was tired of keep being told how unconditionally loved I was and then proceeded to be told conditions.

On a business trip this past week my car radio scanned to the christian station and outside the typical "Yes Jesus! Yes! All over my face!" songs there were songs about god's perfect love. And I couldn't put my head around it.

 

[Yoritomo]

Yeah. I think I mentioned in this very thread back when I was TBM or at least a little NOM like.

I hate that poster that has a picture of Christ with the phrase "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it."

That phrase is complete bullshit.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I'm an atheist now but it really frustrates me that we're surrounded by religions that are about Jesus, instead of any religion that is actually OF Jesus.

 

[CorvoSol]

I'd just like for people to actually consider Christ before talking about Him.

In what world did the Christ who said "Love one another" desire that His name be used to justify the exclusion of innocent children? The same Jesus who chided His Apostles and said "Suffer the little children to come unto me" is now taken as having only said "Suffer the little children."

I can't get my head around why people are being so with us or against us.

 

[ronito]

I can't find it now, but my wife's bisexual uncle posted this beautiful letter from a lesbian mormon that essentially said that she found there were two kinds of mormons: 1) The ones that just follow the rules and don't think and fall into in the "us vs.them" and 2) the ones that have love and empathy and try to live good lives and be examples of Christ. And she was pointing out that the church seems hell bent on getting rid of the second kind of mormons because those are the people that are leaving over this stuff. She had some beautiful line along the lines of "you're losing your best and brightest and you're doing nothing to retain them. What will happen when their collective light is pushed from the church?"

 

[ronito]

This here is very good

 

[Thaedolus]

Dehlin and Matt Long are reporting a whole bishopric from Orem has resigned in protest....

I'll await further confirmation before jumping to any conclusions, but I'll certainly welcome such protests...

 

[peaceiscloser]

These days I feel like the only thing I can trust in the church is my Book of Mormon. Reading the other day just resonated with me in a way that I can't deny. But otherwise I'm just so disappointed with what I've seen go on. Today I just went to church to grab sacrament, then sat in the parking lot outside the temple, and was able to set my brother apart as a priest. I just feel awful though, nearly every attempt I've made to get something substantial at church has been somewhat fruitless.

In regards to the policy, I'll be honest and sat that I'm awfully disappointed but I can't let myself get too emotionally invested in policy. I fought that so much on my mission and it was a disheartening battle. People deserve better. Any way I frame it, this policy just makes absolutely no sense. Where was the need? What benefit does this bring in any way? I served in Post Prop 8 Southern California and I met so many people hurt and my heart went out to them.

I just feel that there's just a disconnect somewhere - on all levels. There just are too many people in this church with their concerns and heartache unnoticed.

Of course, who am I to talk; I've been holed up as a NEET since I got home.

I absolutely believe in core doctrines and foundational philosophy of this church; but right now I figure the Lord wants me to take time to focus on my self-improvement before I presume to make waves with his saints. Therefore I'm mostly in personal worship mode right now, like in Alma 32.

 

[Yoritomo]

These days I feel like the only thing I can trust in the church is my Book of Mormon. Reading the other day just resonated with me in a way that I can't deny. But otherwise I'm just so disappointed with what I've seen go on. Today I just went to church to grab sacrament, then sat in the parking lot outside the temple, and was able to set my brother apart as a priest. I just feel awful though, nearly every attempt I've made to get something substantial at church has been somewhat fruitless.

In regards to the policy, I'll be honest and sat that I'm awfully disappointed but I can't let myself get too emotionally invested in policy. I fought that so much on my mission and it was a disheartening battle. People deserve better. Any way I frame it, this policy just makes absolutely no sense. Where was the need? What benefit does this bring in any way? I served in Post Prop 8 Southern California and I met so many people hurt and my heart went out to them.

I just feel that there's just a disconnect somewhere - on all levels. There just are too many people in this church with their concerns and heartache unnoticed.

Of course, who am I to talk; I've been holed up as a NEET since I got home.

I absolutely believe in core doctrines and foundational philosophy of this church; but right now I figure the Lord wants me to take time to focus on my self-improvement before I presume to make waves with his saints. Therefore I'm mostly in personal worship mode right now, like in Alma 32.

Reminds me of this talk, which I still love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcM7koDc-jg

Need to clarify though that after that wonderful talk was given he was forced to edit and rerecord the talk and invert the actual meaning to one of obedience to the church...

So eh, still like the original but the rewritten version speaks more of why thoughtful members like you might be struggling.

 

[ronito]

The first of many such articles I'm sure

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2...ation-because-his-mom-is-living-with-a-woman/

This time last week, Alyssa Paquette’s twelve-year-old stepson was preparing to be ordained to the priesthood in the LDS Church.

Now that has all changed. On November 5, the Church confirmed a new policy that forbids baby blessings, baptisms, and priesthood ordinations for minor children who reside at least part of the time in a home where a parent is in a same-sex marriage.

The sadness has been palpable. After a crushing weekend spent trying to understand what the Church’s new policy means for him, the boy* is crestfallen.

“Usually he is so positive and easygoing, but ever since these policies hit and we learned he would not be ordained, he has been depressed and anxious,” says Paquette, 35, a Mormon mother living in Oregon.

He’s not the only one. Their whole blended family has been suffering since the news hit last Thursday. Their family configuration is complicated but loving: The twelve-year-old is Paquette’s husband’s son from a prior relationship. The boy’s mother subsequently began cohabiting with a woman. The father joined the LDS Church, married Paquette, and had three more children with her, now ages 8, 6, and 2.

The boy’s two families share equal custody and his biological mother has been accepting of the decision to raise him as a Mormon, despite her reservations about its teachings on LGBT issues. “All of his parents were there” at his baptism four years ago, says Paquette. “It was a great experience because we all came together to support our son during an important time.”

Now Paquette expresses shock and grief that on the eve of their son’s ordination, he’s being rejected. “It feels like a mourning process, like someone has actually died. The church is such a huge part of our lives, and to have that suddenly taken away from him is really challenging,” she says.

Paquette notes that her family has been deluged with “an outpouring of love and support” from their local ward, and that the bishop reached out to them immediately. “He was very sympathetic and full of love, and struggling to find the right words for us.”

But, she says, “He was also at a loss for how the new policies would apply in our situation. It sounds like he hasn’t been given much guidance other than what’s in the handbook.” At first, the family hoped that an exception might be made because their son is already a baptized member of the church, and so close in age to his planned ordination.

However, that was impossible since he is legally required to live part-time in his biological mother’s home according to the terms of their joint custody agreement. Under the new policy, this makes him ineligible for most of the church’s rites until he becomes an adult—and even then only if he disavows his mother’s same-sex marriage.

“That is just not an option for us,” Paquette says. “My husband and I feel that it would be wrong to have him disavow half of his family.”

The shock wave of this policy change doesn’t just affect her son, though.

Her eight-year-old daughter was scheduled to be baptized next week, and now that will not be happening.

“Even though our three other children aren’t precluded from being baptized, we feel like we can’t continue to participate in church with the policy as it stands,” she says. “We have a strong conviction that it’s wrong.”

The Paquettes have decided that they will either attend church together as a family, with all of their children treated equally, or they will find somewhere that is a “safe place” for the six of them.

Paquette breaks down in tears at the thought of not being Mormon, which is “a huge part” of her identity. She does not want to have the family’s names removed from the rolls—“that would be really drastic, and would close a door”—but she won’t choose the church over keeping her family whole.

“When you’re raised in the church, you’re raised to sustain your leaders. You’re taught that anything that comes from the church is from God, and to not sustain them is to not sustain God,” she says.

“But I don’t know how we’re supposed to sustain something that tears our family apart.”

 

[Thaedolus]

I'm just getting more and more disgusted by this over time. Christofferson can shove his "context" man, there's no spinning this debacle into positive light.

 

[ronito]

I don't know what the church is doing honestly. I've heard a lot of speculation that it's centered around some legal reasoning, to either keep the church from losing tax exempt status or the church insulating itself from a lawsuit to force it to preform gay marriages.

The accepting the gay marriage one, doesn't seem to hold much water. There's simply no legal precedence to force a religion to preform a gay marriage.

The tax-exempt status one though does hold a bit more water. But the thing is, I don't see how this doesn't backfire spectacularly against this threat.

I don't believe it has to do with doctrine, because it goes against doctrine. So there has to be some other reason.

 

[ronito]

I do think there is at least one positive thing to come out of this, the term "Mountain Meadows Mormon" to describe members that just follow whatever their told without question is a pretty apropos term, while at the same time serving the dark humor that sustains me.

 

[MIMIC]

And it begins. From an active LDS social worker friend of mine:

<snip>

That is so messed up

 

[CorvoSol]

I don't know what the church is doing honestly. I've heard a lot of speculation that it's centered around some legal reasoning, to either keep the church from losing tax exempt status or the church insulating itself from a lawsuit to force it to preform gay marriages.

The accepting the gay marriage one, doesn't seem to hold much water. There's simply no legal precedence to force a religion to preform a gay marriage.

The tax-exempt status one though does hold a bit more water. But the thing is, I don't see how this doesn't backfire spectacularly against this threat.

I don't believe it has to do with doctrine, because it goes against doctrine. So there has to be some other reason.

The paranoia for this is REAL tho. Any time you bring up anything the Church might do from a legal perspective, and basically any time members thumped about Religious Freedom in Idaho, this seemed to be the notion at the root of it. Which is kinda batty, but really I think the Church should just move away from American Sealings being legally binding. I think making the Sealing a legal wedding sorta detracts from the importance of the covenant by tying it too closely to the more mundane wedding event, personally. But more to the point: Sealings aren't legally binding in other countries. In my area in Brazil members would get wed by their Bishop in the Church one night, then make the journey down to the Temple (few states away) and be sealed.

Having that ceremony in the Church sorta allows that nonMormon family members may be present for the part they care about: the actual wedding, while also cutting down on the bloat of people in a Sealing Room not actually designed to hold so many people.

I realize this is high heresy, but I honestly feel that weddings and Sealings should be separate, because one is such a societal, communal, flashy event whereas the other should be a quiet, solemn, sacred occasion. I get that people are sometimes taken with the dream of getting wed in a Temple, and that the line for say, the Salt Lake Temple's Sealing Rooms is ages long for good reason, but I dunno, I just feel that a wedding and a Sealing are two different, if related events and would be better served as being two different, separate events.

Honestly very little would change anyway, outside of the order of events. John Blondeman and his intended Melissa Flatrack would got four lots down to the Chapel to get married by Bishop Oldviews, then three streets over to the Temple for their Sealing instead of getting Sealed first, then going to the Chapel for the living nightmare that is a wedding reception.

 

[Yoritomo]

The paranoia for this is REAL tho. Any time you bring up anything the Church might do from a legal perspective, and basically any time members thumped about Religious Freedom in Idaho, this seemed to be the notion at the root of it. Which is kinda batty, but really I think the Church should just move away from American Sealings being legally binding. I think making the Sealing a legal wedding sorta detracts from the importance of the covenant by tying it too closely to the more mundane wedding event, personally. But more to the point: Sealings aren't legally binding in other countries. In my area in Brazil members would get wed by their Bishop in the Church one night, then make the journey down to the Temple (few states away) and be sealed.

Having that ceremony in the Church sorta allows that nonMormon family members may be present for the part they care about: the actual wedding, while also cutting down on the bloat of people in a Sealing Room not actually designed to hold so many people.

I realize this is high heresy, but I honestly feel that weddings and Sealings should be separate, because one is such a societal, communal, flashy event whereas the other should be a quiet, solemn, sacred occasion. I get that people are sometimes taken with the dream of getting wed in a Temple, and that the line for say, the Salt Lake Temple's Sealing Rooms is ages long for good reason, but I dunno, I just feel that a wedding and a Sealing are two different, if related events and would be better served as being two different, separate events.

Honestly very little would change anyway, outside of the order of events. John Blondeman and his intended Melissa Flatrack would got four lots down to the Chapel to get married by Bishop Oldviews, then three streets over to the Temple for their Sealing instead of getting Sealed first, then going to the Chapel for the living nightmare that is a wedding reception.

Completely agree. This is what should have happened if they were worried about the ramifications of nationwide legal same-sex marriage.

 

[ronito]

of course, the cynic in me is like "They'll never do it because they'll lose the family hostage." I've personally seen a lot of people "get their lives in order" just enough to attend the wedding and then fall away again later.

A couple of European countries have to have it this way by law. Personally I think that's a much better approach. But I don't expect them to change it, many members would revile it after being taught that civil ceremonies are pitied and looked down upon. That and the paragraph above.

 

[CorvoSol]

of course, the cynic in me is like "They'll never do it because they'll lose the family hostage." I've personally seen a lot of people "get their lives in order" just enough to attend the wedding and then fall away again later.

A couple of European countries have to have it this way by law. Personally I think that's a much better approach. But I don't expect them to change it, many members would revile it after being taught that civil ceremonies are pitied and looked down upon. That and the paragraph above.

I think a lot of countries outside the US don't have the ceremony as legally binding. Of course this flowcharts back to "Can we please as a whole be less US centric?"

 

[CorvoSol]

Big words from a guy I know used to hide boxes of candy under his bed so he wouldn't have to share with his strange, foreign companion.

 

[Thaedolus]

Big words from a guy I know used to hide boxes of candy under his bed so he wouldn't have to share with his strange, foreign companion.

Well shit man, candy's candy.

 

[CorvoSol]

Well shit man, candy's candy.

Bootstraps Candy I got from my hard work that I'm going to zealously horde because it's MY PRECIOUS

 

[alejob]

Ronito is this the lawyer you were talking about? Anyone know more about this?


http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/us/mormon-mass-resignation/index.html

Hundreds of Mormons plan to resign from the church in protest Sunday over a new policy that labels same-sex couples apostates, despite an attempt by the Church of Latter-day Saints to clarify its new decree.

Article says 900 will resign.

As a non mormon living in Utah I find this thread fascinating.

 

[CorvoSol]

These days I feel like the only thing I can trust in the church is my Book of Mormon. Reading the other day just resonated with me in a way that I can't deny. But otherwise I'm just so disappointed with what I've seen go on. Today I just went to church to grab sacrament, then sat in the parking lot outside the temple, and was able to set my brother apart as a priest. I just feel awful though, nearly every attempt I've made to get something substantial at church has been somewhat fruitless.

In regards to the policy, I'll be honest and sat that I'm awfully disappointed but I can't let myself get too emotionally invested in policy. I fought that so much on my mission and it was a disheartening battle. People deserve better. Any way I frame it, this policy just makes absolutely no sense. Where was the need? What benefit does this bring in any way? I served in Post Prop 8 Southern California and I met so many people hurt and my heart went out to them.

I just feel that there's just a disconnect somewhere - on all levels. There just are too many people in this church with their concerns and heartache unnoticed.

Of course, who am I to talk; I've been holed up as a NEET since I got home.

I absolutely believe in core doctrines and foundational philosophy of this church; but right now I figure the Lord wants me to take time to focus on my self-improvement before I presume to make waves with his saints. Therefore I'm mostly in personal worship mode right now, like in Alma 32.

Peace, man, I absolutely feel you on being a NEET after you get home. I went through that, went to college, and wrapped back around to doing it again, haha. I definitely agree with the sort of dissatisfied feeling I get at Church, and the way it feels like so much of what people say is just kinda meh at best.

 

[Furyous]

And it begins. From an active LDS social worker friend of mine:

I spoke to my bishop about this and gave him questions that he needed to find answers to. He dismissed same sex married couples wanting to have their children attend church as wondering why they would want their child to attend a church that tells them their parents are sinners.

The rest of the concerns and 1400+ people leaving in a week were dismissed as ex mormon fuckery. Basically, people were looking for a reason to leave so they left. Anyone being summoned to BYU to choose between family and the church/university were dismissed as inaccurate.

I've invested too much in the church to leave but the resentment is now simmering as a result of the policy change and immediate clarification. The only saving grace is the fact that these decisions are now solely up to the discretion of local leaders.

 

[RoKKeR]

Ronito is this the lawyer you were talking about? Anyone know more about this?


http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/us/mormon-mass-resignation/index.html



Article says 900 will resign.

As a non mormon living in Utah I find this thread fascinating.

This is the guy I contacted about getting my name off the books. Got back to me over the weekend and said the forms were going out on the 14th.

There were apparently 2,500 people at a resignation event today downtown.

 

[ronito]

I

I've invested too much in the church to leave but the resentment is now simmering as a result of the policy change and immediate clarification. The only saving grace is the fact that these decisions are now solely up to the discretion of local leaders.

Come on man. A lot of us invested our whole lives and decades of time, lost friends and family in the transition.

on another note, My daughter wants to get her name removed. She also has a friend that is mormon and when my daughter told her about the policy her friend said, "No. You're just listening to anti-mormon lies. There's no way the church would do that. It goes against everything they teach."

Wonder how her Sunday went.

 

[Doodis]

Come on man. A lot of us invested our whole lives and decades of time, lost friends and family in the transition.

Yeah, not that my plight is any worse than anyone else's, but I'm almost 40, with 20+ years of tithing in the books, a fully believing wife and kids, hardcore extended family. I was invested. Don't let that be the only excuse keeping you in.

 

[Thaedolus]

Not to pile on, but yes: some of us struggled hard to stay. I passed up relationships to stay Mormon. I gave up a lot. I was looking for every reason to stay, not for reasons to go. But when I couldn't do it in good conscience anymore, my integrity took over and handled the rest.

On a side note, I'm sipping another Maui-brewed IPA looking at the gorgeous Pacific Ocean from a pool deck. Not everything about leaving was a sacrifice. I sat across from another couple from Rancho Cucamunga last night at a Luau. They went to the Polynesian cultural center a few nights before. I asked them how the fire dancer was because when I went like 12 years ago he dropped the baton a couple times. They said he was awesome and killed it. I asked what they thought of the area as a whole. They said it had a weird vibe that they couldn't put their finger on. I told them it was the spirit testifying to them. They didn't get it. We all took a drink hahaha.

 

[ronito]

Holly and I were just in Waikiki in the first week of October. It was hilarious because you'd see advertisements for stuff like Hanauma bay (girl in a bikini), or Diamond Head (girl in a bikini) or rafting tours (girl in a bikini) or parasailing (girl in a bikini) then you come to the advertisement for the Polynesian cultural center (girl in a raft wearing a three layer shirt). You couldn't help but laugh.