Are you trying to tell me three-layer shirts aren't traditional Polynesian attire?!?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts
- Thread starter ronito
- Start date
Are you trying to tell me three-layer shirts aren't traditional Polynesian attire?!?
The funny thing about that was there was a guy in traditional polynesian garb (no shirt, etc) and the girls in the boat looked like they could've come out of a BYU-I catalog. White (obviously) with coral or pistachio layered shirts with a white shirt underneath to cover the sinful cleavage. It was really quite funny.
Also, this policy thing still isn't going away. NY times just posted another story.
So this was on the Huffington Post today
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mette...e-ne_b_8629388.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Like I've said the church wont listen to the inactive members. And also they'll only nominally listen to people leaving (they'll just say they're offended). But at the same time don't think these steps (aside from the leadership refusing to apply the policy) will do anything. Some of these are laughable (wear black, yeah, that'll change things) to downright mind breaking (good luck telling your LGBT friends repeatedly that you love them unconditionally when you refuse to leave a group that is not just not on their side, but unabashedly anti-LGBT).
It sorta has a feel of "yeah you might not be happy, but you ain't going to do shit." I don't know though how the church can be made to see the err of their ways. Really the best one I've heard is some gay couples that are supposedly organizing to start attending LDS churches with their kids. Personally, I think if they can actually get people dedicated enough to do it that's the most brilliant thing. Once mormons get exposed to gay families and their kids and see there's nothing wrong with them, that will shake people to start putting the church in a position where it must drop the policy.
But this? I just don't know
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mette...e-ne_b_8629388.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Honestly, I don't know how I feel.
Like I've said the church wont listen to the inactive members. And also they'll only nominally listen to people leaving (they'll just say they're offended). But at the same time don't think these steps (aside from the leadership refusing to apply the policy) will do anything. Some of these are laughable (wear black, yeah, that'll change things) to downright mind breaking (good luck telling your LGBT friends repeatedly that you love them unconditionally when you refuse to leave a group that is not just not on their side, but unabashedly anti-LGBT).
It sorta has a feel of "yeah you might not be happy, but you ain't going to do shit." I don't know though how the church can be made to see the err of their ways. Really the best one I've heard is some gay couples that are supposedly organizing to start attending LDS churches with their kids. Personally, I think if they can actually get people dedicated enough to do it that's the most brilliant thing. Once mormons get exposed to gay families and their kids and see there's nothing wrong with them, that will shake people to start putting the church in a position where it must drop the policy.
But this? I just don't know
Thaedolus
Member
Yeah but ronitoswife friended me on facebook so you know, I got that going for me, which is nice...
But in all seriousness...I don't know the answer. Part of me wants to pull no punches and just let everyone know how fucked up this whole thing is. Another part of me sees that as being counter-productive and feeding into the persecution complex. I don't think there's a right or wrong way about it really.
But in all seriousness...I don't know the answer. Part of me wants to pull no punches and just let everyone know how fucked up this whole thing is. Another part of me sees that as being counter-productive and feeding into the persecution complex. I don't think there's a right or wrong way about it really.
ronitoswife
Neo Member
Purple Cheeto
Member
The LDS Church was ranked 22nd best company to work for on Glassdoor:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Places-to-Work-LST_KQ0,19.htm
which is all kinds of weird to me.
6 of the 198 reviews were from people who listed their job title as Missionary, 5 were volunteers, 8 were various types of interns, 5 more were facilities management (I thought the Church dumped this years ago?).
99% CEO approval rating though!
https://www.glassdoor.com/Best-Places-to-Work-LST_KQ0,19.htm
which is all kinds of weird to me.
6 of the 198 reviews were from people who listed their job title as Missionary, 5 were volunteers, 8 were various types of interns, 5 more were facilities management (I thought the Church dumped this years ago?).
99% CEO approval rating though!
Might be forced out of the church relatively soon due to age. I joined the church in my mid to late 20's. Apparently I should've been in a hurry to get married or moved because now they want me to attend the family ward after being a part of the church for less than six years. Needless to say I'm not thrilled and had a 45 minute conversation with my bishop about this.
He claimed I was less active and sporadically attend church because I don't attend the two weekly social events that the ward throws. I correctly pointed out to him that outside of that there aren't actual opportunities to get to know someone within the church. It would be one thing if there were a movie night or some opportunity to fellowship but there isn't one so that leaves me to force things with undergraduate students in brief social situations.
Yeah I am beyond frustrated and basically told bishop IF they're going to do this then I'll completely go inactive. My future within the church is literally in their hands.
He claimed I was less active and sporadically attend church because I don't attend the two weekly social events that the ward throws. I correctly pointed out to him that outside of that there aren't actual opportunities to get to know someone within the church. It would be one thing if there were a movie night or some opportunity to fellowship but there isn't one so that leaves me to force things with undergraduate students in brief social situations.
Yeah I am beyond frustrated and basically told bishop IF they're going to do this then I'll completely go inactive. My future within the church is literally in their hands.
Sorry, but the church is more about policy than they are about people. I just read a reddit post about some guy's grandma that crawls up and down the stairs in her home because her knees are so bad. She won't move to an assisted living facility because the closest one is just outside the ward boundaries and the bishop won't allow her to remain a member of that ward (where she's lived forever and where all her friends are) if she moves. It's sad.
I know you probably don't want to hear this, but you'll want a better reason for going inactive. Not for others, but for you. Without one you'll look back and think to yourself "I stopped going for THAT?" and start the cycle again. That's just my take.Either way, keep us posted.
Truth be told, I preferred family wards to YSA adult wards. YSAs are so childish and I feel infantilize members. Of course, I can't blame you for not thinking family wards wouldn't be much better. We've had this discussion here before though that the church has not kept up with society. It in essence expects people to graduate high school, go on a mission, come home and get married right away. It STILL hasn't found what to do about young people that come home and don't get married right away. It hasn't figured out how to address people in this demographic and it's really a huge contributor to the exodus going on. I know that exmos like to be like "Haha! They finally did the research and found it isn't true!!" but really I think most of the exodus are people that leave just because there's no place for them in the church.
Also, this is making the rounds.
I actually think it's funny. Because I think it was in this very thread where I said that a lot of the stuff that the church is admitting now people were originally taught were anti-mormon lies. I remember someone calling me out and saying "No it's not!"
Well...
I actually think it's funny. Because I think it was in this very thread where I said that a lot of the stuff that the church is admitting now people were originally taught were anti-mormon lies. I remember someone calling me out and saying "No it's not!"
Well...
ronitoswife
Neo Member
Also, this is making the rounds.
I actually think it's funny. Because I think it was in this very thread where I said that a lot of the stuff that the church is admitting now people were originally taught were anti-mormon lies. I remember someone calling me out and saying "No it's not!"
Well...
I don't know whether to laugh or to face palm at this, That poor person is in for a rude awakening someday and it will probably hit hard.
Thaedolus
Member
I've got some real Poe's law going on with that post...I could see it as some sort of troll to get members to check out the essays. But I dunno.
My cousin just tried to re-engage me in some BoA debate. A long time ago I sent him this response to the LDS.org essay, which totally brutalizes the apologetics used there. First he tried to say this guy wasn't scholarly for misusing "ibid" in his citations. I pointed out that the usage was correct, and my cousin was like "oh I guess you're right." Then he tried to bring it up again, and told him to read the goddamn rebuttal because I don't have the time or care. Then he tried to pick apart a single point in the article.
Now he's asking me what I think about the things in the BoA which "Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have known in the 1800's." Like fucking what? He gets almost everything wrong. In like every single way the BoA is incorrect. Its history of Egypt is incorrect, translations of the facsimiles are incorrect, its Newtonian cosmology is incorrect. It's ridiculous. I'm still waiting on his specifics. I think I'm gonna post it to the ExMo reddit and let them shred it.
My cousin just tried to re-engage me in some BoA debate. A long time ago I sent him this response to the LDS.org essay, which totally brutalizes the apologetics used there. First he tried to say this guy wasn't scholarly for misusing "ibid" in his citations. I pointed out that the usage was correct, and my cousin was like "oh I guess you're right." Then he tried to bring it up again, and told him to read the goddamn rebuttal because I don't have the time or care. Then he tried to pick apart a single point in the article.
Now he's asking me what I think about the things in the BoA which "Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have known in the 1800's." Like fucking what? He gets almost everything wrong. In like every single way the BoA is incorrect. Its history of Egypt is incorrect, translations of the facsimiles are incorrect, its Newtonian cosmology is incorrect. It's ridiculous. I'm still waiting on his specifics. I think I'm gonna post it to the ExMo reddit and let them shred it.
Speaking of Poe's law, I saw this image
and thought, "Man that's a clever troll. Making him complain about people wishing him well in a way he doesn't agree with. Wonder who did that."
Turns out, it's really him. Yes, an apostle really wrote that.
https://www.facebook.com/lds.dallin.h.oaks/
and thought, "Man that's a clever troll. Making him complain about people wishing him well in a way he doesn't agree with. Wonder who did that."
Turns out, it's really him. Yes, an apostle really wrote that.
https://www.facebook.com/lds.dallin.h.oaks/
Speaking of Poe's law, I saw this image
and thought, "Man that's a clever troll. Making him complain about people wishing him well in a way he doesn't agree with. Wonder who did that."
Turns out, it's really him. Yes, an apostle really wrote that.
https://www.facebook.com/lds.dallin.h.oaks/
"A few years ago, I decided to judge and then criticize my fellow well-wishers because I had nothing better to do as an apostle of the Lord..."
Update: still in the church because bishop decided to give me a reprieve. At the point they send me to the family ward I'm inactive as being single shouldn't be the death knell for life in the church.
A move to SLC next year could wreck me emotionally. I hate this idea that I have to be a damn near public official in the eyes of the church in my private life. People are really judgemental as is and I'm not sure (read: definitely don't handle judgement well from sheltered people) I'll respond to living in a church sponsored city well. SLC has a darkside that is really something, allegedly and I'm a young church member as is....
On one hand I'm ready to move on but on the other hand I'd miss the church especially living in Utah. However, this idea that I'm an old running back in the NFL that needs to settle down is insane. What happens if I rush into marriage and fail? I'm a scumbag in the eyes of the church at that point so why even stay or get married in the first place? SLC is going to be weird for me after the clusterfuck that was that youth conference anyway.
A move to SLC next year could wreck me emotionally. I hate this idea that I have to be a damn near public official in the eyes of the church in my private life. People are really judgemental as is and I'm not sure (read: definitely don't handle judgement well from sheltered people) I'll respond to living in a church sponsored city well. SLC has a darkside that is really something, allegedly and I'm a young church member as is....
On one hand I'm ready to move on but on the other hand I'd miss the church especially living in Utah. However, this idea that I'm an old running back in the NFL that needs to settle down is insane. What happens if I rush into marriage and fail? I'm a scumbag in the eyes of the church at that point so why even stay or get married in the first place? SLC is going to be weird for me after the clusterfuck that was that youth conference anyway.
Depending on where you are in SLC, it can be a pretty liberal place.
Educate me pls? I need to stay clear, clear, away from the judgemental fuckery that is a part of the some single's wards. Let me enjoy my 2 percent mocha latte in peace without having a conversation with an EQ President or bishop.
I'm looking for a place with a maximum of $500 a month in rent unless I pass the notary public exam quickly.
Thaedolus
Member
You can pretty much find any crowd around Salt Lake. I never attended a ward there, though, but I imagine they're relatively par for the course. Salt Lake just elected a gay female mayor, and has a lot of small and independent restaurants, brew pubs, etc. The city proper isn't too bad. Suburbs east of the 15 quickly become MoMo towns, though. Ward dynamics are always a form of roulette.
On a side note, I've had a coffee pot going every morning while visiting my parents and nobody seems to care. Tender mercies that I'm ponderizing today
On a side note, I've had a coffee pot going every morning while visiting my parents and nobody seems to care. Tender mercies that I'm ponderizing today
Here's an interesting write up about the whole stand off thing.
http://www.feministmormonhousewives...e-more-violent-fanatics-than-other-religions/
http://www.feministmormonhousewives...e-more-violent-fanatics-than-other-religions/
Yes, keep close to the city. Anywhere around the city and sugarhouse area are quite liberal. As far as the wards go, you might not escape Utah mormon douchebaggery hardly anywhere. But best of luck!
My active wife gave me a Starbucks gift certificate in my stocking. Praise the Lawd!
DeviantBoi
Member
So Russell has confirmed that the new bigoted policies were directly words from God through his prophet Monson.
Just as things had begun to quiet down, he goes and stokes the flames! What a dumbass.
Just as things had begun to quiet down, he goes and stokes the flames! What a dumbass.
disastermouse
Banned
I lived in SLC off and on for a few years (I went to UCMT). Interesting energy and I've never seen as much good will between out-groups (gays, hippies, straight-edgers, new-agers, atheists, minorities, etc.) in any other city because everyone seems willing to give the other person a chance because, "Hey, at least you're not Mormon!" Also, gawd-damn hot girls and by my age at least some of them are Jack-Mormons (apologies if that term is offensive, not intending to be) and divorced.
I had the best work experience of my RN career working there as a travel RN a few years later. Working conditions were amazing because the LDS are so family and community-service oriented. Older LDS RNs were very nice to me. Some of that may have been unconscious patriarchal deference, though. I am expressively Buddhist nontheist - everyone knew it and no one gave me shit about it. Navigation is a breeze due to the grid system, light rail is plentiful, night life is thriving in the city due to all the out-groups. They got rid of the ridiculous system of private clubs and have a thriving microbrewery scene.
There's snowboarding in the winter and hiking or downhill mountain biking in the summer.
I was working there in late 2008 when Obama won, though, and I was one of maybe three people celebrating.
I'd love to ask which policy. The original policy or the "revised" policy and how that went down.
"Thus saith the Lord..."
Then a few days later, "Wait...hold on...When I said 'thus saith the Lord' I actually meant I said..."
But yeah, that whole thing was a new kind of stupid. Guy should've kept quiet, let it blow over, let people forget they're part of a bigoted religion. Don't throw it in their face again.
Which policy is revelation? I had a 45 minute conversation with a bishop over this issue when it happened and it was made clear to me that this is a policy not a revelation. The original document does not mention revelation. I can't ask this elsewhere so I'll ask it here:
Is this a way to encourage people to stay because revelation cannot be questioned? This was initially a policy issue not revelation so why bring it up now.
DeviantBoi
Member
He said it in a recent speech:
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3391057-155/lds-gay-policy-came-from-god
Here is the exact quote:
So it seems they're just doubling down and having a "sit your ass down!" moment. Lots of people weren't OK with the policy but stayed anyone thinking that it's just a messed up policy. This is to shut those people up.
Lately there's been a lot of people on facebook posting an insipid quote, "What's the point of having a prophet if you'll only follow him when you agree with him?" from Adris Parhsall. I always reply, "What's the point in having free agency if you'll only do what they tell you." Never a reply interestingly enough.
So it seems they're just doubling down and having a "sit your ass down!" moment. Lots of people weren't OK with the policy but stayed anyone thinking that it's just a messed up policy. This is to shut those people up.
Lately there's been a lot of people on facebook posting an insipid quote, "What's the point of having a prophet if you'll only follow him when you agree with him?" from Adris Parhsall. I always reply, "What's the point in having free agency if you'll only do what they tell you." Never a reply interestingly enough.
Is this a serious post? I think most people on this thread de-converted. And there are plenty of research links we can offer that you should read up on before you make your decision.
Looking for a long, in-depth read? http://cesletter.com/
Looking for the tl;dr version? https://youtu.be/qcQthyiTA7c?list=FLvQ6r8jFaqlArEZA0QYzq4w
*raises hand*
Go to church and see if you like it. Take your time as I met a young woman that investigated the church for four years before deciding on a baptism date. Not encouraging you to do anything other than come to church and soak up the atmosphere.
Dai Kaiju
Member
After seeing that...maybe God just wants me to live like a mormon. Minus the polygamy and statutory rape.
Thaedolus
Member
If there is a God, he wants you to be a good person. Despite the slick outward appearance, the Mormon structure doesn't exactly promote that. I know a lot of great people that are Mormons, but the more I've experienced life outside of the church, the more I've realized they're great people in spite of being Mormon, not because of the faith.
They'll probably tell you exmembers can't be trusted, but believe me, I've got no skin in the game. Do what makes you happy. Just think long and hard about a god who requires SOPs to be followed to a T and requires secret handshakes to enter into heaven.
So they're going after the guy who wrote the CES letter.
http://cesletter.com/jeremy-runnells-faces-lds-excommunication.html
On one hand, it's not surprising. The CES letter has been damning to the church by putting all the facts in a easy to read format. On the other hand, it seems a dumb move. It would be easy for Jeremy to come back with "tell me what's not true" or play the victim. It just seems to me a stupid move. You're not going to stop him from doing what he's doing. You're not going to silence him, in fact, you gave him reasons to be louder than before. Also, do you want people to read the CES letter? Because this is how you make people read the CES Letter.
It's shocking to me that they think this is a good idea. Can they be that out of touch?
http://cesletter.com/jeremy-runnells-faces-lds-excommunication.html
On one hand, it's not surprising. The CES letter has been damning to the church by putting all the facts in a easy to read format. On the other hand, it seems a dumb move. It would be easy for Jeremy to come back with "tell me what's not true" or play the victim. It just seems to me a stupid move. You're not going to stop him from doing what he's doing. You're not going to silence him, in fact, you gave him reasons to be louder than before. Also, do you want people to read the CES letter? Because this is how you make people read the CES Letter.
It's shocking to me that they think this is a good idea. Can they be that out of touch?
He wanted to meet with a Stake President to ask questions and 16 months later they went from asking questions to excommunication. WOW.
Meanwhile the church has yet to address Brand Thornton's blatanly false apostasy in an interview that mentions Priesthood curses. The Bundy family is allowed to tarnish the name of the church but this guy asking questions is subject to an excomm hearing. Words cannot express the disdain I have for this set of actions moving forward.
Purple Cheeto
Member
The Church is gonna Church.
Edit: Also this is the first I've heard of the CES letter and wow, just wow. I mean I knew some of this stuff, either from the Internet or from reading Under the Banner of Heaven, but damn. There's no logical way to resolve all this and still come away believing in the church.
Edit: Also this is the first I've heard of the CES letter and wow, just wow. I mean I knew some of this stuff, either from the Internet or from reading Under the Banner of Heaven, but damn. There's no logical way to resolve all this and still come away believing in the church.
Purple Cheeto
Member
I said logically. Those aren't logical arguments.
Unfortunately, the church isn't high on promoting logic. It's all about the feels.
EDIT: Damn, forgot to refresh after I opened this thread. Beaten like a child of wife number 19.
So it looks like they've rescheduled the "court of love" until March. Didn't say why, but eh.
One thing that this has shown in the last 3 or 4 days is that exmormons are given to the same echo-chamber/masturbatory thinking as TBMs. Sure, I think the church stands more to lose in this than gain, but man a lot of people have gone off the deep end, like that guy who tried to sue the church.
I would be interested to see if there are any mormons here that have read the CES letter and still believe. And I mean really read not look at it smugly and say, "Oh I already heard about this." Personally I have only met very few mormons that really read the CES letter and still believed afterwards but very very few (like I an thinking like 2)
One thing that this has shown in the last 3 or 4 days is that exmormons are given to the same echo-chamber/masturbatory thinking as TBMs. Sure, I think the church stands more to lose in this than gain, but man a lot of people have gone off the deep end, like that guy who tried to sue the church.
I would be interested to see if there are any mormons here that have read the CES letter and still believe. And I mean really read not look at it smugly and say, "Oh I already heard about this." Personally I have only met very few mormons that really read the CES letter and still believed afterwards but very very few (like I an thinking like 2)
I took my wife through most of the major issues and points covered in the letter half a year ago...she's still as devout a believer as ever. Sigh.
Apparently it's a dangerous to be a blogger right now
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/
Another excommunication.
http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/
Another excommunication.
Thaedolus
Member
ExMormons are just as prone to the psychological shortcomings of being human as the rest, and it's not surprising to me to see them (us) sometimes fall victim to our own weaknesses. But, I will say, I think there's a pretty healthy skepticism that shouldn't be written off when you're talking about the community as a whole. The subreddit in particular has some pretty prominent bullshit-callers.
Honestly, I think the church is run by guys who mean well but are put in a system which promotes some sort of acquired narcissism and they just don't get it. I don't doubt when Oaks goes out there and says nobody grieves more than him about LGBT suicides, he believes it, because he's been conditioned to believe his thoughts are God's. It's dangerous and awful that these guys have the sway they do, but I don't necessarily blame them outright for it. They're victims of this system too
Honestly, I think the church is run by guys who mean well but are put in a system which promotes some sort of acquired narcissism and they just don't get it. I don't doubt when Oaks goes out there and says nobody grieves more than him about LGBT suicides, he believes it, because he's been conditioned to believe his thoughts are God's. It's dangerous and awful that these guys have the sway they do, but I don't necessarily blame them outright for it. They're victims of this system too
Thaedolus
Member
You know, after Bednar's latest I just can't even anymore. It's like a parody of itself at this point. My grandmother is about to pass and my mother is sending me articles about angels protecting us through the veil.
I'm sorry to the believers who ever check this thread, but fuck the idea this church is a net positive. No way, no how.
I'm sorry to the believers who ever check this thread, but fuck the idea this church is a net positive. No way, no how.
I have really tried hard to neutral but I have to admit I'm starting to see far more negative and hurtful stuff from the church than good. And frankly, the good? The church doesn't have a monopoly on it. You can get encouragement and inspirational quotes anywhere. And the family forever thing? Honestly I can't think of a single mormon family that I know anymore that doesn't feel like at least part of their family is a hostage (either by "satan" or by the church) It has taken a tack to create division first and seeks comfort in itself instead of looking outward at the world it claims to embrace. I'd say "sorry believers" but I know they don't read this thread anyway.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll