balladofwindfishes
Member
This isn't Catholicism at all. I've never met a Catholic who thought contraceptives and masturbation should be illegal
And I went to Catholic school for 15 years
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Ohio 'heartbeat' bill banning most abortions passes legislature, on Governor's desk
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And I went to Catholic school for 15 years
BrutishMrFish
Member
At least there's a slightly greater chance of that happening as long as people like you don't get into power.
Airola
Member
Internet discussions don't necessarily change the minds of those who participate to them, but a lot of other people are reading them and are genuinely interested in hearing opinions from both sides. They could swing either way. That's why even the most frustrating discussions can have serious value.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Huh.
Homophobia is "dislike or prejudice against homosexual people" according to Google. Not wanting equal rights to marry does not mean prejudice. That is like saying that not letting people in wheelchair run the marathon is prejudice.
That is not like saying black people cannot sit on white people seats. Nothing in their nature prevents them from doing such a thing but social rules. In comparison, homosexual people should not marry because they cannot have children together.
Hahahahaha... Oh wow, you're dead serious, aren't you?
Veritigo_X
Member
What you are describing is exactly prejudice... what do you think that word means? Please do not copy and paste from a dictionary. Use your own words.
balladofwindfishes
Member
"I'm not prejudice, I just don't want gay people having equal rights as me"
Seriously?
Seriously?
InfiniteBento
Member
Not wanting equal rights for a body of people is prejudice.
You don't want gay people to have the same rights as you because of the way they are born. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of prejudice
Vincent Grayson
Member
Here's the thing though, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but it's an important part of the discussion: in no other aspect of our lives does the government require one person to offer succor to another using their body.
Even if we accept the premise that the growing fetus is a morally-relevant person deserving of legal protection, there is no basis on which to ground the notion that the mother must then allow the fetus to stay inside her body for 9-ish months.
To me, that's the simple truth of it. We cannot require someone to keep another person inside their body, even if we believe both to be fully "persons" in the legal and moral sense of the word.
So infertile women shouldn't marry?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Jesus you are being such an ass, I'm sorry but that is such a dick thing to say. What you are describing is exactly that, prejudice. You want to deny people the same rights because they are different.
Me and my wife cannot have kids, guess we shouldn't be allowed to get married.
Homophobia doesn't stop with marriage btw.
Nice dig to couples who can't conceive too, I'm sure they'll appreciate !
Sterile women also should not be able to marry. Vasectomy? Forget about marriage... I mean, what's the point?
Psychoward
Banned
1) that is prejudice
2) that isn't the only view you had thoughts on about homosexuals. Wanting sex between the same gender to be outlawed and homosexuals to go to rehab for being immoral is pretty fucking prejudiced
You've crossed the line on being homophobic and have entered full grown hatred for homosexuals while convincing yourself you're not. It's sad.
AlexMeloche
Member
Sterile people shouldn't have the right to marry either. Ok,
Abilidebob
Member
Serious actual question:
Do you also think that "non-fertile" women can't marry? Or a "non-fertile" man? I mean, they can't have children together.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
He's also against divorce.
I wonder how he feels about, say, a couple that gets married, then find out they are sterile and can't have children. Can they divorce each others so they can then marry someone else to have kids with?
But divorce is also immoral!
Or if divorce is exceptionally OK in this circumstance, what about an older couple, where the woman is now infertile because of menopause, but the man can still breed, and he wants more children. Can he divorce his wife for a younger woman because "I want more kids"? Since making kids is the
CrudeDiatribe
Member
Thanks for sharing your harrowing experience.
If men could get pregnant then the anti-choice movement would be a lot smaller and a lot less successful.
And an infertile heterosexual couple? I had an ex-g/f that went through menopause at 15 because of cancer treatments. Should she have been forbidden from marrying her husband?
Mr Waluigi
Banned
I'm not a hardcore-as-fuck Christian, but I am a Christian, yes. As you've pointed out with your "nice try", I have not made any mention of scripture or anything because I hold those views regardless of religion.
>because evolution and biology are completely detached from morality. They do not inform morality whatsoever.
We hold our views of morality not from a religious book and certainly not from making it up on the spot, but from what worked before. We don't kill each other because we see ourselves reflected in others, and we identify them as members of our community, and if we kill them we harm the community as a whole and also make ourselves subject to potential punishment. Our idea of morality is a result of both the way our species evolved and the way our society identified certain actions as good and certain actions as bad. (which is also how you get superstition and religion).
Psychoward
Banned
Guys he's purposefully avoided saying anything to do with sterile females for a reason.
benicillin
Banned
I wouldn't expect any kind of internal logical consistency coming from those posts.
Psychoward
Banned
Once again with your delusion. You are a hardcore as fuck Christian. You're an extemist plain and simple. Your views don't line up with the majority of Christians at all.
MisterShine
Member
I lived my life surrounded by them, I learned to shrug it off. There's injustice in the system to fight and rail against, regular people can live and let live.
My Apologies for the assumption here. There's just a level of shrillness here (what with the dozen quotes a minute) that I tend to associate with people who just can't believe what they're hearing!! when actually, yeah, this isn't exactly uncommon from what I've seen.
You understand that like 70%~ of people believe in some higher power and live their life by it? Sometimes they're super milquetoast in their beliefs, all these Christians these days who are totally cool with things like homosexuality but you've gotta understand those are pretty new developments.
I can only speak to my personal experiences of course, but as someone who was raised Muslim I've heard some pretty awful shit said by people who think there aren't any heathens around. Homophobia and anti-semitism were pretty regular. I've got to assume it's pretty common in Christian circles too.
Go over the catechism again a few more times. All of this stuff is in there, other than explicitly calling for them to be laws. I don't view that as much of a distinction.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Yep, and this is exactly why he is in the fringe of the fringe, i.e. this is NOT Christian teaching, not even in the slightest. He wants it criminalized, let that sink in.
If I understood it right earlier he said that infertile women who are naturally infertile can have sex but otherwise they can't?
balladofwindfishes
Member
It might be there, but Catholics don't really follow the catechism that much. At least all the ones I know. This includes nuns that are fine with gay marriage
I'm not taking up for him at all, but you are splitting hairs on that one issue. He says that about children only because it's physically impossible for two people of the same sex to create life. He isn't saying that sterile people shouldn't still get married if they can't get pregnant, since they technically could if there wasn't a medical reason that prevented them from doing so. There is plenty of stuff to work with here, but getting hung up on that one little thing isn't helping since that isn't what he meant.
Your views on homosexuality are as hardcore as they get, man.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
There's no reason to argue with Mr. Waluigi.
It's clear he went off the deep end a long time ago.
edit: nevermind
It's clear he went off the deep end a long time ago.
edit: nevermind
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You are absolutely a fanatical, extreme Christian. You're already deluding yourself with your beliefs, but now you're also deluding yourself on your level of extremism. It's pretty sad. There is nothing moderate about your Christianity.
And please stop citing evolution for your views. Evolution is a simple natural process that has nothing to do with morality.
I'm well aware that in some parts of the world, it's more common. In industrialized Western countries (and several Asian ones), however, his views are considered insanely regressive. To the point where, say, a politician saying those things would be an instant pariah; even our most conservative (but mainstream) politicians here in Canada wouldn't express those views.
I would guess, then, that you grew up in a Muslim country?
MisterShine
Member
...
For a thousand + years, since Constantine called forth the Nicean council, the Catholic church has been an explicit political organization and has pushed for laws following its tenants. It may have fallen out of fashion 'lately' (Okay the Enlightenment was a while ago) and held little traction in America due to the largely Protestant population but this isn't new.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-marriage-referendum-vote-defeat-for-humanity
There's the church freaking out because it lost the gay marriage battle in Ireland.
I do agree with you, these ideas have very little wider traction in Western (I'll take your word for it in Asian countries, I am woefully ignorant of their various social mores) but I'm just genuinely surprised that more people aren't aware that these kinds of things are said behind closed doors or right outside open churches.
I am actually African-American, my father converted to Islam right after I was born and he kept the family in Muslim-only circles. I was also raised pretty strict, we rarely were allowed to listen to music (one of those ideas that sound abhorrent to most but are actually not that rare) til' I was almost graduated from high school.
Netherscourge
Banned
So explain the Crusades to me, please.
I just wanted to point out that fetal heartbeats can be heard in ectopic pregnancies. If you don't know what those are, it's a pregnancy where the egg has become stuck in the woman's fallopian tube. The end of such pregnancies is either surgery to remove them, or the fallopian tube ruptures which has a significant chance of death attached to it, as many women don't know what's wrong until the internal bleeding is so severe that their lives are endangered. My wife nearly died of an ectopic pregnancy when she was young. It's a terrible and sad thing, and penalizing women and doctors for making hard but necessary choices is disgusting.
This is another great example of allowing people who don't understand medicine and biology to make laws determining how we treat things. I suspect Kasich won't sign it, but the people who passed it and support it should be ashamed of themselves.
This is another great example of allowing people who don't understand medicine and biology to make laws determining how we treat things. I suspect Kasich won't sign it, but the people who passed it and support it should be ashamed of themselves.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Are you sure? Kasich is a hardcore pro-lifer. :\
Bolivar687
Banned
Most people are expecting him to sign it from what I've read.
Why do you think he won't sign it?
Looking it up, he has 10 days until it automatically becomes law
He has said for years that he's against this exact thing as it is unconstitutional.
MisterShine
Member
These people rarely pay any attention to Biology. Someone let it slip to them that the zygote is the first distinct stage of a new life and they just ran off with it.
More on-topic: I got into this thread because I was surprised and a little displeased with some of the reactions to Mr. Waluigi's posts, not really to discuss the news, but since I'm here and an Ohioan- fuck these guys. There aren't even any rape or incest exceptions (which, to be painfully fair, makes 'logical' sense from a religious pov) provided.
Yes. As I've said, I've seen plenty of people express opinions very much like his before. Do I vehemently disagree with them? Absolutely. Would I ever vote, or even allow a person with views like that to take office? I would not. Apostates like me would be the first ones against the wall in a regime like that.
However, after the crushing defeat we all just suffered this election cycle because we didn't want to listen to anyone we didn't like, we're now getting 50 replies of "BWUH HOW CAN YOU BE SO AWFUL AND STUPID?!" instead of listening and understanding. You don't need to like it, you don't need to be cool with them, you don't need to let them have their way legally. But you should absolutely try to understand what they ACTUALLY BELIEVE and not just whatever shit you want to fill in. Like all of the hypotheticals about "What about infertile people HUH?!". Like, there's an answer to that. It's out there. Know who you're talking to.
Psychoward
Banned
The thing that got you to reply was displeasure at the replies directed to Mr. Waluigi? Uh, your piorities seem kinda skewed to me.
Because he's said previously he didn't support it, because it's likely unconstitutional and will drag the state into an expensive fight it can't win. The bill's been around for two years and he's been pretty consistent in his opinion that it's a bad bill.
There's another bill that tries to cap abortions at 20 weeks, the standard method of slowly eating up the amount of time available, that he does support, though.
SliceSabre
Banned
I'll say this: Kasich is a very much conservative person, but I'll give him credit he tends not to take the most extreme position one possibly can on an issue even though our shitty legislature in this state tries to push him that way. I suspect he won't sign it either simply because he knows it is a worthless bill, has mentioned before he isn't for this kind of bill and will be thrown out by a judge before the ink even dries.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
My Catholic family would probably be pretty happy about those things being illegal (minus masturbation) seeing as they believe morality comes from God and anything that goes against the written law of their religion isn't moral.
Abortion? Gone. Under ALL circumstances it is unacceptable and irredeemable.
Contraceptives? Illegal would be great because that aligns with their morality. Sex is only for procreation, only for a man and a woman, and only after marriage.
Masurbation? Not illegal, but again, immoral because it is a mortal sin which separates your soul from God. If they could monitor your impure thoughts as well they would.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Right that isn't really recent...
As noted, the church is freaking out over gay marriage, not criminalizing same-sex activities. There is a vast difference.
Ah, I see.
Airola
Member
I don't think we should lump an offspring of two human beings into something that is using the body of a human. It's a completely unique thing. There simply can't be any other situations of something living inside someone else to compare it against. People can try to compare that offspring to a leech or something like that, but I'm not sure they actually believe that comparison can really hold any ground. Government simply can't require that from any other situations because there aren't any other situations like that.
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