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[EndGame82]

There are also innocent victims not on death row. It's tragic either way, but it's a problem with the justice system not with the death penalty.
An innocent man losing his life to confinement is no less tragic then one losing it by other means.

Don't give me the garbage that we are a barbaric society because some feel this man got what he deserved. Consequences are a bitch..no?

Recite all the studies you want. Studies also show that prison has no rehabilitating effect on inmates. Should we stop sending them to prison for committing crimes then.
Maybe we should just shake hands, say sorry and share a juice box the next time a man commits murder?

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Recite all the studies you want. Studies also show that prison has no rehabilitating effect on inmates. Should we stop sending them to prison for committing crimes then.
Maybe we should just shake hands, say sorry and share a juice box the next time a man commits murder?

"you can post all the studies you want, I'm just going to ignore them because of my feelings"

 

[Suikoguy]

There are also innocent victims not on death row. It's tragic either way, but it's a problem with the justice system not with the death penalty.
An innocent man losing his life to confinement is no less tragic then one losing it by other means.

How exactly did you come to this conclusion? Do you ignore the people who have had convictions overturned after many years? You can't overturn a death sentence after it happens.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Recite all the studies you want. Studies also show that prison has no rehabilitating effect on inmates. Should we stop sending them to prison for committing crimes then.
Maybe we should just shake hands, say sorry and share a juice box the next time a man commits murder?

Sounds like a great opportunity for you to challenge yourself to engage in self-reflection and personal development by learning that there are more systems of justice than just the American style of retribution. If our goal is to rehabilitate criminals or prevent crime, and we know that our current system of justice not only fails to do so but actually makes it worse, then of course we should be actively trying to reform and establish new systems of justice. Surely you realize that many cultures and societies operated without any sort of prison/incarceration system and got along just fine. I'd suggest reading about alternative approaches like restorative justice or even historical accounts of say, Native American responses to crime, but since you pathetically defaulted to such an absurd strawman I think it's pretty clear you've made up your mind come hell or high water.

Similar to laws against homelessness, prison also works to shovel fundamental societal problems into the dark so we can ignore it and try to pretend it doesn't exist. It's much easier to ignore the plight of the homeless if you force them to live where no one can see them or imprison them for refusing to do so. It's much easier to "solve" crime and its root causes by just throwing everyone in a prison hundreds of miles away; that way we don't have to ask the tough questions about how to fix it. We don't have to tackle issues of poverty, racism, or mental health. Out of sight and out of mind.

 

[GaimeGuy]

There are also innocent victims not on death row. It's tragic either way, but it's a problem with the justice system not with the death penalty.
An innocent man losing his life to confinement is no less tragic then one losing it by other means.

If an innocent man is exonerated and still in prison, you can't give him back the time he's lost, but at least you can give him back his freedom. You can not do this for people who die while imprisoned, but their deaths are not on your hands.

If an innocent man is exonerated after he's been executed, though? You can't do anything for him. And you're the one who took that life away in the first place.

The latter case is literally state-sanctioned murder.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'm for the death penalty in theory. But not in practice.

Mistakes like this is why. Innocent people being put to death would be another. Prosecutors that intentionally withhold key evidence that could lead to an exoneration would also be on the list.

It's startling that in the 21st Century in America that ANY part of the execution process is "secret". That's a huge red flag.

The focus on the prison system should be rehabilitation. Even if it takes a lifetime for the offender. Even if they only rehabilitate behind bars. It's of a net benefit to society.

 

[Gotchaye]

There are also innocent victims not on death row. It's tragic either way, but it's a problem with the justice system not with the death penalty.
An innocent man losing his life to confinement is no less tragic then one losing it by other means.

This seems obviously wrong. Certainly it doesn't seem to be the case that people sentenced to "death by confinement" are indifferent between that and dying much sooner (edit: or even in other ways, mostly). It seems to me that you're ignoring that "death by confinement" comes at the end of a long period of confinement, and most people find that long period of confinement to be far preferable to not being alive. It's a little weird to think about life imprisonment this way. The hope is that people who die while serving life sentences die of old age, right? But of course it sounds absurd to say that sentencing an innocent person to die of old age is no less tragic than sentencing them to any other sort of death.

Don't give me the garbage that we are a barbaric society because some feel this man got what he deserved. Consequences are a bitch..no?

You understand that you're not actually saying anything that could be construed as persuasive here, right? This is just a rude gesture directed at people you disagree with.

Recite all the studies you want. Studies also show that prison has no rehabilitating effect on inmates. Should we stop sending them to prison for committing crimes then.
Maybe we should just shake hands, say sorry and share a juice box the next time a man commits murder?

I don't think any significant number of people actually think that the sole purpose of punishing criminals is rehabilitation. If you did think that, and weren't just constructing a dishonest straw man, you might want to take this moment to recognize that you are shockingly ignorant of where the other side in this debate is coming from, and that probably your conclusions are suspect to the extent that part of the reason you're confident in them is that you think you've thought this through.

 

[M3d10n]

While I abhor the death penalty in all forms, why the fuck don't they just use carbon monoxide. Painless and relatively easy.

Yeah, I don't understand. There are well documented ways to kill of a person with near zero discomfort. Heavy inert gases like nitrogen and argon are supposed to quickly asphyxiate someone without triggering a suffocation reaction, since they allow the carbon dioxide out but prevent the oxygen from getting in (our bodies react violently to the excess CO2 in the bloodstream, not the lack of oxygen).

 

[EndGame82]

So basically you are going to insult me because I don't fully conform to your line of thinking?

You are cherry picking statements that don't fit your view or opinion and taking shots at them. It doesn't make your argument more persuasive in any way.

Anybody can google a study they put zero personal research in. My point is, for every study that says "X", you will find another study that says "Y". Nothing cut and dry about it at all.

I've heard quite a bit about the moral standing of our society in this thread; I believe the true reflection of our society lies within it's ability to be tolerant. I've seen none of that in this thread.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

This seems obviously wrong. Certainly it doesn't seem to be the case that people sentenced to "death by confinement" are indifferent between that and dying much sooner (edit: or even in other ways, mostly). It seems to me that you're ignoring that "death by confinement" comes at the end of a long period of confinement, and most people find that long period of confinement to be far preferable to not being alive. It's a little weird to think about life imprisonment this way. The hope is that people who die while serving life sentences die of old age, right? But of course it sounds absurd to say that sentencing an innocent person to die of old age is no less tragic than sentencing them to any other sort of death.

They also get medical care. They're no more sentenced to death than every other human being is. Everybody dies

So basically you are going to insult me because I don't fully conform to your line of thinking?

You are cherry picking statements that don't fit your view or opinion and taking shots at them. It doesn't make your argument more persuasive in any way.

Anybody can google a study they put zero personal research in. My point is, for every study that says "X", you will find another study that says "Y". Nothing cut and dry about it at all.

I've heard quite a bit about the moral standing of our society in this thread; I believe the true reflection of our society lies within it's ability to be tolerant. I've seen none of that in this thread.

You think he insulted you?

 

[Princess Carl]

So basically you are going to insult me because I don't fully conform to your line of thinking?

You are cherry picking statements that don't fit your view or opinion and taking shots at them. It doesn't make your argument more persuasive in any way.

Anybody can google a study they put zero personal research in. My point is, for every study that says "X", you will find another study that says "Y". Nothing cut and dry about it at all.

I've heard quite a bit about the moral standing of our society in this thread; I believe the true reflection of our society lies within it's ability to be tolerant. I've seen none of that in this thread.

But see, that's incorrect. in fact, instead of just spouting your nonsense, how about you link us some of these studies where the death penalty is a functional deterrent, or where the US system of incarceration isn't one of if not the least effective system of criminal justice in the developed world.

Or don't and continue with your "gut feelings" about the issue.

 

[ivysaur12]

"There are studies that show anything!" has to be one of the most reductive responses to the possibility of being presented with persuasive arguments to the contrary of a previously held belief. It shows an inability to engage because it summarily dismisses any evidence that might contradict your view.

 

[EndGame82]

But see, that's incorrect. in fact, instead of just spouting your nonsense, how about you link us some of these studies where the death penalty is a functional deterrent, or where the US system of incarceration isn't one of if not the least effective system of criminal justice in the developed world.

Or don't and continue with your "gut feelings" about the issue.

As a manager, when an employee comes to me with a complaint about how our system works I first ask what he or she believes would be a reasonable solution to fix it.
I'm interested to hear your proposal for fixing the US system of incarceration.

Here is the link to a study that says the death penalty works. I used google instead of my gut.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061100406.html

 

[GaimeGuy]

As a manager, when an employee comes to me with a complaint about how our system works I first ask what he or she believes would be a reasonable solution to fix it.
I'm interested to hear your proposal for fixing the US system of incarceration.

Here is the link to a study that says the death penalty works. I used google instead of my gut.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061100406.html

How about we try out what norway does?

 

[EndGame82]

As I said, for every "study" you throw at me, I can easily find one that backs what I say.

Again...my point was that studies don't really mean a whole lot when you weren't the actual person conducting them. You are basicaly using google to back your gut, just like I did there.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

As a manager, when an employee comes to me with a complaint about how our system works I first ask what he or she believes would be a reasonable solution to fix it.
I'm interested to hear your proposal for fixing the US system of incarceration.

Here is the link to a study that says the death penalty works. I used google instead of my gut.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061100406.html

From your "study"

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver.

Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory _ if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).

This is trash "science"

And no people aren't using google and their gut. They're using Meta-analysis which compiles many studies and susses out an consensus.

 

[Paches]

As I said, for every "study" you throw at me, I can easily find one that backs what I say.

Again...my point was that studies don't really mean a whole lot when you weren't the actual person conducting them. You are basicaly using google to back your gut, just like I did there.

Is this your actual belief?

 

[EndGame82]

From your "study"




This is trash "science"

And no people aren't using google and their gut. They're using Meta-analysis which compile many studies and susses out an consensus.

If you disagree with what I believe than you are going to crap over any study I provide a link to. It was apparent that was going to happen.

At best the data is inconclusive for each argument. AGAIN...my point was that citing studies is nothing more than googling your opinion and setting it to a link.

I have never once said one way or the other what my stance on the death penalty is. You are all so quick to ram your "study" based opinions down my throat that you keep missing the point.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

"Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal’s deed, however calculated, can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date on which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not to be encountered in private life."

If you disagree with what I believe than you are going to crap over any study I provide a link to. It was apparent that was going to happen.

At best the data is inconclusive for each argument. AGAIN...my point was that citing studies is nothing more than googling your opinion and setting it to a link.

I have never once said one way or the other what my stance on the death penalty is. You are all so quick to ram your "study" based opinions down my throat that you keep missing the point.

This isn't true.

 

[DarkFlow]

If you disagree with what I believe than you are going to crap over any study I provide a link to. It was apparent that was going to happen.

At best the data is inconclusive for each argument. AGAIN...my point was that citing studies is nothing more than googling your opinion and setting it to a link.

I have never once said one way or the other what my stance on the death penalty is. You are all so quick to ram your "study" based opinions down my throat that you keep missing the point.

What's up with the weird persecution complex all the sudden?

 

[EndGame82]

If you haven't done the study yourself, you are absolutely just using someone elses work to back your similar belief.

It is 100% true.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

If you haven't done the study yourself, you are absolutely just using someone elses work to back your similar belief.

It is 100% true.

What the hell are you even going on about?

 

[DarkFlow]

If you haven't done the study yourself, you are absolutely just using someone elses work to back your similar belief.

It is 100% true.

So unless you do a study yourself you can't use it? Is that what you're saying?

 

[EndGame82]

What's up with the weird persecution complex all the sudden?

No complex, I could post a link that says football is fun, if somebody doesn't like football they are going to disect the article because it doesn't fit their belief.
Hence, I knew going in that regardless of what study I linked, it would be disected by those who don't agree with it.

 

[benjipwns]

As I said, for every "study" you throw at me, I can easily find one that backs what I say.

Again...my point was that studies don't really mean a whole lot when you weren't the actual person conducting them. You are basicaly using google to back your gut, just like I did there.

The only "study" needed is a liberal morality. But I can understand why someone vaporized and reconstituted wouldn't put much value on that.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Is this the equivalent of the "were you there" defense?

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Barbaric.

Barbaric is what this guy did to his victim.

I like how people seem to forget about that.

 

[DarkFlow]

No complex, I could post a link that says football is fun, if somebody doesn't like football they are going to disect the article because it doesn't fit their belief.
Hence, I knew going in that regardless of what study I linked, it would be disected by those who don't agree with it.

Yeah, that's called a debate.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Barbaric is what this guy did to his victim.

I like how people seem to forget about that.

They aren't. And they don't disagree that his actions are horrible and unforgivable

 

[SpeedySwaf]

No complex, I could post a link that says football is fun, if somebody doesn't like football they are going to disect the article because it doesn't fit their belief.
Hence, I knew going in that regardless of what study I linked, it would be disected by those who don't agree with it.

Any study is open to dissection, if there are legitimate grievances with it. There's nothing stopping you, for example, from taking a study that supports the idea of the death penalty being an ineffective deterrent and criticizing it.

 

[EndGame82]

Yeah, that's called a debate.

Thank you for clearing that up, you have contributed smashingly to this one.

 

[DarkFlow]

Thank you for clearing that up, you have contributed smashingly to this one.

No problem, you seem to be having trouble figuring that out.

 

[EndGame82]

No problem, you seem to be having trouble figuring that out.

You still seem to have trouble comprehending my point, so I guess we are at a stalemate.

 

[Derwind]

Barbaric is what this guy did to his victim.

I like how people seem to forget about that.

I like how people keep implying that people simply forget how brutal the murder is.

Yup, its not like people are saying killing is fucked up and a society based on killing as a punishment for killing is taking that fucked up sensation to a higher level.

Yup, yup...

Fuck murders, they are scum sucking shits, but no one can convince me there is something healthy about glorifying the planned killing of a murder to appease some warped sense of justice. All that is, is just some high octane bloodlust running some already high emotions.

I wonder how people feel about cutting off the hand of a thief/robber? (Among other old world form of supposed "detterents" to crime and/or thinly veiled vengeance)

 

[Chumly]

"I can find a study that says the opposite" has to be the cheapest argument on the internet. Not all studies are equal and to pretend that you can throw any study to "prove" your claim is ridiculous.

 

[benjipwns]

"I can find a study that says the opposite" has to be the cheapest argument on the internet. Not all studies are equal and to pretend that you can throw any study to "prove" your claim is ridiculous.

I can find a study to say otherwise.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I can find a study to say otherwise.

lol

 

[ampere]

Heard about this... ugh.

Hope it moves our society closer to abolishing the death penalty.

 

[benjipwns]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/stat...cle_f7764efc-d036-11e3-af7e-0017a43b2370.html

Eyewitness account: A minute-by-minute look at what happened during Clayton Lockett’s execution

 

[Grug]

Don't give me the garbage that we are a barbaric society because some feel this man got what he deserved. Consequences are a bitch..no?

My problem with this line of thinking is that no one is born in a vacuum with a blank slate.

Some people have genetic flaws that cause abnormal psychological behaviours.

And EVERYONE is a product of their sociological conditioning. For example as disgusting and abhorent as I find the sexual assault of children, how often do you hear the backstory of a pedophile that they were systematically sexually abused and assaulted as children. With what we know about development psychology these days, there is no way you can argue against the fact that in many, many cases the behaviour of these perpetrators is linked to external circumstances.

Now again, I am not advocating for a second that this excuses this behaviour one bit and these people have to be removed from the society they are a threat to. But the tangled web of sociological and psychological drivers for these crimes definitely changes the way I think about how justice should be metered out.

Case study: a child is systematically sexually, physically and psychologically abused by their parents essentially from birth. As a result, they grow up entirely psychologically damaged, incapable of basic empathy with other human beings and ends up sexually assaulting and taking the life of a child in some maladjusted way to get even with the world and to deprive someone else of the same innocence that was taken from them. They subsequently die in agony and terror in a botched execution while people reading the papers sneer and say "he got what he deserved".

Is this justice? Doesn't feel like it to me. More like vengeance and a perpetuation of a cycle of misery, torment and injustice.

Those are my grounds for my anti-capital punishment views on sociological grounds. Life is messy and often unfair, and there are no easy answers, but I am confident that capital punishment isn't one of them.

On philosophical grounds, Nietsche says it all for me... "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."

Or Gandalf... if that floats your boat.

Frodo: It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance.
Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends

 

[curlyfriski]

Barbaric is what this guy did to his victim.

I like how people seem to forget about that.

It's not either/or. They're both barbaric. The difference is that one is carried out by the state, which in a democratic society is supposed to represent the people, meaning that atrocities like this are carried out in our name.

 

[EndGame82]

My problem with this line of thinking is that no one is born in a vacuum with a blank slate.

Some people have genetic flaws that cause abnormal psychological behaviours.

And EVERYONE is a product of their sociological conditioning. For example as disgusting and abhorent as I find the sexual assault of children, how often do you hear the backstory of a pedophile that they were systematically sexually abused and assaulted as children. With what we know about development psychology these days, there is no way you can argue against the fact that in many, many cases the behaviour of these perpetrators is linked to external circumstances.

Now again, I am not advocating for a second that this excuses this behaviour one bit and these people have to be removed from the society they are a threat to. But the tangled web of sociological and psychological drivers for these crimes definitely changes the way I think about how justice should be metered out.

Case study: a child is systematically sexually, physically and psychologically abused by their parents essentially from birth. As a result, they grow up entirely psychologically damaged, incapable of basic empathy with other human beings and ends up sexually assaulting and taking the life of a child in some maladjusted way to get even with the world and to deprive someone else of the same innocence that was taken from them. They subsequently die in agony and terror in a botched execution while people reading the papers sneer and say "he got what he deserved".

Is this justice? Doesn't feel like it to me. More like vengeance and a perpetuation of a cycle of misery, torment and injustice.

Those are my grounds for my anti-capital punishment views on sociological grounds. Life is messy and often unfair, and there are no easy answers, but I am confident that capital punishment isn't one of them.

On philosophical grounds, Nietsche says it all for me... "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."

Or Gandalf... if that floats your boat.

Frodo: It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance.
Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends

Now I can appreciate this. Also, anybody that quotes Gandalf is alright in my book!

Truth be told, I'm not Mr.Gung Ho, line em up and kill em all. I don't support violence or the taking of a human life as a measure of justice.
I absolutely agree that the justice system is failing us in many ways and badly needs an overhaul.

I do however believe in Karma and the existence of a higher being (that belief is a whole other can of worms I know.) I believe that is the way that man was meant to die, and I honestly don't think it is a coincidence.

I guess that gets me painted as a contributor to a barbaric thinking society, but I know my actions in life are quite the contrary.

 

[Rest]

Conservatives on twitter are gloating about this talking about bringing back the guillotine, firing squads, and hangings

There are still firing squads and hangings, it just depends on the state.

 

[KingGondo]

The Tulsa World acquired emails from an OK assistant attorney general that dismissed concerns about the state's untested execution method as "hysterical speculation."

http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage2/a...080-d1fb-509f-9ad7-a648fc58e376.html?mode=jqm

Also found this part interesting and ridiculous:

To execute Lockett and Warner, the state chose to use midazolam along with vecuronium bromide, a paralytic drug, and potassium chloride, which stops the heart.
Pruitt’s office has said the state consulted no experts in developing the new lethal drug cocktail, relying mainly on legal research and practices in other states.
Used as the first drug in place of barbiturates the state had relied on for decades, the sedative midazolam would likely not render inmates unconscious, especially when executioners delivered the second and third drugs, experts testified in a recent Florida case.
The Florida suit was brought by an inmate challenging use of midazolam in that state’s executions.
Testimony from the case has been cited by Pruitt in defending the new protocol. Florida, the only other state using midazolam as the first drug in its executions, uses five times more of the drug than Oklahoma does.

 

[Pumpkin King]

The Tulsa World acquired emails from an OK assistant attorney general that dismissed concerns about the state's untested execution method as "hysterical speculation."

http://m.tulsaworld.com/homepage2/a...080-d1fb-509f-9ad7-a648fc58e376.html?mode=jqm

Also found this part interesting and ridiculous:

They said on the news tonight they expect the results of the investigation in weeks, not months. It will be interesting to see what kind of results they concoct.

 

[benjipwns]

Also found this part interesting and ridiculous:

Do you expect regular black market drug buyers to do extensive research instead of relying on word of mouth?

 

[kehs]

The preliminary findings by forensic pathologist Dr. Joseph Cohen report that there were “skin punctures on the extremities and right and left femoral areas” of Lockett’s body, which means that the execution team made several failed attempts to place the IV in Lockett’s groin area. Eventually, they did manage to place the IV, but the autopsy report says it only “nicked” Lockett’s femoral vein. So the lethal drugs were actually absorbed into his muscle.

…

Oklahoma law stipulates that lethal injections require a “licensed/certified health care specialist in IV insertion.” But the official documents from the Department of Corrections state that a “phlebotomist” — an individual who is unlicensed, unregulated, and not specifically trained to insert IVs, at least in Oklahoma — was in charge of preparing Lockett for execution. After the Tulsa World investigated further to try to figure out exactly who was in charge of Lockett’s IV, state officials said it was actually an EMT.

…

One state legislator, Rep. Mike Christian (R), is already pushing for the return of firing squads, hangings, and the electric chair. Christian would also settle for even more gruesome options — he recently said that he doesn’t care if death row inmates are fed to lions.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/06/13/3448802/autopsy-oklahoma-botched-execution/

 

[Deified Data]

Getting to the point where hanging almost seems more precise and humane.

 

[DemurOnion]

Honestly, I don't really care. They'll figure it out. It's only a problem for me if it keeps on happening. I have too many other concerns than for some murderer or rapist.

 

[Mike M]

Christian would also settle for even more gruesome options — he recently said that he doesn’t care if death row inmates are fed to lions.

Really?