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Pachter on PS5: Bets on 2020 launch now, PS4 Pro to become "default PS4"

2

2blackcats

Member
RdN said:
I really hope it's 2020 and no 19.

Give time for current tech to become cheaper and thus, having stronger consoles.
Click to expand...

I really think it will be dictated by what tech is available to them.

If they can get a decent jump in 2019 but there's no big improvement by waiting til 2020 it will launch in '19

Similarly if by waiting til 2020 they get decent gains over what's available to them in 2019 they'll wait.

It comes down to what their development partners can get ready and when. (and how much stuff costs obviously)


E: I'm fine with either year.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
c0de said:
But that was special hardware back then, we knew both companies use more or less of the shelf hardware from AMD. Even you knew because otherwise you would not had come up with fp16. Last gen has no say in this sub discussion.
Click to expand...
A gimped GeForce 7 (2004-2005 tech) was special hardware?
 
N

Negotiator

Member
c0de said:
Of course not. But the system itself had nothing to do with PC hardware. Nowadays consoles do, though. But I guess you already knew that.
Click to expand...
PS3 was basically half PC (RSX) and half special/exotic hardware (Cell). Only the PS2 was truly special/exotic hardware as a whole.

The discussion was about the GPU though.
 
C

c0de

Member
tapantaola said:
PS3 was basically half PC (RSX) and half special/exotic hardware (Cell). Only the PS2 was truly special/exotic hardware as a whole.

The discussion was about the GPU though.
Click to expand...

No, the discussion was around whether we could have expected the X having a 3tf GPU when launching the console a year after the pro. Even it would have been at a certain point around E3 back then, do you believe they would've launched such a console?
It was clear it would be a console with an Apu, thus it was clear it was AMD and thus the options of what to put in there were quite limited.
OnQ tried to make the point with a less powerful GPU from last gen without giving context, meaning that Sony still was convinced that the cell would be the next thing in computing. They even had plans to release he PS3 without a GPU. Bringing this up as an example is just completely useless in this case discussing which GPU would be in the X.
 
B

BreakAtmo

Member
RoboPlato said:
I'm hoping that temporal injection becomes more widely adopted. Hoping Insomniac does a tech talk on it. Pro and XBX (to a lesser extent) are good for testing out these methods. I'm expecting adaptive res and reconstruction to remain common on next gen hardware given how taxing native 4k is and how nice those methods already are. On next gen hardware they should be even better.

If we can get something that looks like the Uncharted 4 60fps trailer on PS5 at a well reconstructed 4k I will be ecstatic.
Click to expand...

Yep - they're just so efficient that they really shouldn't be ignored. If they actually did go with my idea of choosing between checkerboarded/temporal 60fps and native 30fps, I honestly wonder how many would even choose the latter. It could end up being purely for marketing purposes. Well, unless Variable Refresh Rate is common by then. If so, the native option could be more like 35-45 fps, closing the gap a little.

There's also the question of games like Street Fighter and Gran Turismo that outright NEED 60fps. Would they be required to go with a single native 60fps mode?

I'm sure we'll get something like that Uncharted trailer though. Hell, probably better. The PS5 could probably even do that at native 4K.
 
O

onQ123

Member
c0de said:
No, the discussion was around whether we could have expected the X having a 3tf GPU when launching the console a year after the pro. Even it would have been at a certain point around E3 back then, do you believe they would've launched such a console?
It was clear it would be a console with an Apu, thus it was clear it was AMD and thus the options of what to put in there were quite limited.
OnQ tried to make the point with a less powerful GPU from last gen without giving context, meaning that Sony still was convinced that the cell would be the next thing in computing. They even had plans to release he PS3 without a GPU. Bringing this up as an example is just completely useless in this case discussing which GPU would be in the X.
Click to expand...


You said there was no reason for a console launching a year later to be inferior & I gave you an perfect example of a console releasing a year earlier with a weaker GPU, I could have also pointed out the Wii , Wii U & Switch but I only needed one example.

Right now we could end up with a PS5 that's not much more powerful than the Xbox One X if Sony has some marketing plan for a VR console.
 
C

c0de

Member
onQ123 said:
You said there was no reason for a console launching a year later to be inferior
Click to expand...

No. I said
c0de said:
"There was no reason for a console launching a year later to be inferior than the pro"
Click to expand...

Of course we are talking about MS and Sony here as these are the only two console manufacturers left who feel that consoles have to be powerful to exist on the market.

I gave you an perfect example of a console releasing a year earlier with a weaker GPU
Click to expand...
Which didn't make it an inferior console like I described above. But I already explained why this example is flawed.

I could have also pointed out the Wii , Wii U & Switch but I only needed one example.
Click to expand...

You could also mention Ouya and many other Android consoles and it would still be out of context. Not to mention that Nintendo intentionally decided to opt out of the performance competition, starting with the Wii.
 
S

Shazz_rulez19

Member
AmyS said:
Economics of scale? lol
Click to expand...

lol economics of scale indeed but it is some scaling tho. In all honesty sony hit the sweet spot this gen with the price and they will be looking to replicate their success so any imaginary specs that were listed would be out of question, the ps5 would be a low-end, starting-mid level spec'ed machine just to make it enough for the consumers and not something "premium".
 
O

onQ123

Member
c0de said:
No. I said


Of course we are talking about MS and Sony here as these are the only two console manufacturers left who feel that consoles have to be powerful to exist on the market.


Which didn't make it an inferior console like I described above. But I already explained why this example is flawed.



You could also mention Ouya and many other Android consoles and it would still be out of context. Not to mention that Nintendo intentionally decided to opt out of the performance competition, starting with the Wii.
Click to expand...

You been making the silliest arguments all week ,
 
A

almostjuliuscaesar

Member
Razgreez said:
I doubt one would hear anything regarding PS5 until the PS4 growth starts to decline. For now they likely have range of possible specifications they are targeting and that target will keep shifting based on existing technologies and the strength of the available platform.

If anything developers are, at present, still being asked what they would like as opposed to being told what is potentially available - as per Sony and their technology partners' roadmap/blueprint. If PS4 development was anything to go buy then just-in-time finalization of PS5 specs is pivotal in ensuring a competitive edge.
Click to expand...

this is where i'm at with it. im sure they are dipping their toes into the water on it but nothing that any one can parse for leak-able information. they are asking what devs would like in a new platform and my guess is everybody is asking for a CPU that isn't ready for console scale yet lol. on the graphics side of things they probably already have the ideas in mind but the CPU is what will determine everything this go around
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
unsubstantiated rumors. these one off website 'reports' never amount to anything usually
 
C

Cyriades

Member
PlayStation 5 will feature full discrete GPU, not an APU

Exclusive: In the hustle and bustle of Computex, I had an interesting conversation with someone who will remain anonymous, about Sony's next-gen PlayStation
Click to expand...

"After I had found out what this person did, I had a few questions to ask about the PS5 and what it will arrive as - especially when we look at Microsoft's upcoming Project Scorpio console. The first question I had was "will it feature a discrete GPU" to which I received a smile and a "I can't say exactly", and then I said would it feature an APU like Project Scorpio, and then there was a "no"."
Click to expand...

Let's think of the possibilities: PS5 runs a Vega-based graphics card that we've been hearing about in the GTX 1070 level performance range, with an 8-core Ryzen-based CPU. Sony could push for a more expensive console experience, while providing better than Project Scorpio performance
Click to expand...

"Another question I asked was when will Sony release the PlayStation 5, and my anonymous source said "definitely not in 2018", but wouldn't confirm a 2019 release."
Click to expand...

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/57845/playstation-5-feature-full-discrete-gpu-apu/index.html
 
J

jelly

Member
Is the APU a problem because it would be massive and like lava without a new manufacturing shrink process?

I can't see Sony going for discrete, power, heat, cost would be quite high.
 
S

shaneo632

Member
I bought a PSVR and Switch this year so a year or two without buying any more consoles would probably be nice for my wallet.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
c0de said:
But all the HSA features, the advantage of one address space, the die size...
Click to expand...

True, but how much die space will a ryzen take up? Jaguar is tiny, leaving most space for the GPU. While ryzen is an important and necessary step forward in CPU performance, it is much larger than jaguar, leaving disproportionately less space for the GPU
 
S

Sulik2

Member
Conceivably an advantage of keeping the GPU discrete is you could do a PS4 Pro style update of the GPU only without needing to fully redesign your APU for a new graphics chip.
 
K

kyser73

Member
Kyoufu said:
"while providing better than Scorpio performance"

no fucking shit
Click to expand...

‘Learned their lesson with the Pro when Scorpio slaps them around a bit.’

KWALITY JURNELISM!!

This guy needs a job at The Economist with winning prose like that.

Comments actually manage to be stupider than the article.
 
C

c0de

Member
mrklaw said:
True, but how much die space will a ryzen take up? Jaguar is tiny, leaving most space for the GPU. While ryzen is an important and necessary step forward in CPU performance, it is much larger than jaguar, leaving disproportionately less space for the GPU
Click to expand...

A setup with a dedicated GPU will cost even more space on the board.
How much space an Apu will take in the end, we will see. They will release soon, IIRC.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
c0de said:
But all the HSA features, the advantage of one address space, the die size...
Click to expand...
It can support hUMA if the RAM is attached to the GPU and the CPU goes through it, but I don't think they're going discrete, unless they have plans for a monstrous Threadripper CPU or something. TDP and cost would go through the roof, reaching the magical
$599
price point once again. Huge risk!

mrklaw said:
True, but how much die space will a ryzen take up? Jaguar is tiny, leaving most space for the GPU. While ryzen is an important and necessary step forward in CPU performance, it is much larger than jaguar, leaving disproportionately less space for the GPU
Click to expand...
This has been discussed before.

An 8-core Ryzen will easily fit in a 7nm APU, especially if it's the Mobile Ryzen Pro variant (less L3 perhaps):

ryzen-roadmap-better-100722917-orig.jpg


Sulik2 said:
Conceivably an advantage of keeping the GPU discrete is you could do a PS4 Pro style update of the GPU only without needing to fully redesign your APU for a new graphics chip.
Click to expand...
There would be no need for a PS5 Pro if they went discrete. They'd just release a PS5 Slim with a die shrunk APU combining both chips.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
This discrete GPU article got posted again? Why do people keep giving it any attention? Poorly sourced, little credibility, and a discrete GPU has zero advantages over a custom APU while adding to manufacturing cost and heat output.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
RoboPlato said:
This discrete GPU article got posted again? Why do people keep giving it any attention? Poorly sourced, little credibility, and a discrete GPU has zero advantages over a custom APU while adding to manufacturing cost and heat output.
Click to expand...

It does have some advantages if the GPU is big and complex enough to make the yields of an SoC solution troublesome... it may be a launch strategy with an SoC coming down the line although it is quite bold...
 
Azelover

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
Obviously he got his values mixed up, and therefore is totally wrong. I appreciate that he switched targets though, just for the merit of talking about something different.

He has a responsability, and his job is important I think, so at least for the sake of his clients I hope he can get it together eventually. I don't hate you Pachter.
 
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