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Pope Francis suggests gay marriage threatens traditional families

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H

HalfBakedProphet

Member
12qmDwb.gif
 
mario_O

mario_O

Member
Pope is on a roll this week, a couple of days ago he advocated for violence "a bad word against my mother, then a punch awaits" and now this...
 
H

Henchmen21

Banned
Lol at anyone that bought all that "Openness" he kept spouting. It was just PR to get more young people to join the catholic church and many millennials bought it hook, line, and sinker.
 
R

RM8

Member
Aureon said:
If i should even need to note this, i do not endorse nor excuse the veiled homophobic behavior of the catholic church.



May need a pinch of perspective, here.

The pope is in the Vatican, which is to say, Italy.

Italy has the third-lowest fertility rate of the world (1.4), after South Korea and Japan, and is going through a pretty harsh demographic crisis, with 2x the number of 29-34ers than 0-4ers, and 27% pension tax.
So, yes. At the moment, more reproduction would very much be helpful in italy.
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If anything it proves that banning same sex marriage doesn't affect fertility rate, since at least in Japan, same sex marriage doesn't exist.

Because we totally needed proof of this in the first place.
 
B

boiled goose

good with gravy
I don't even understand why people say this.
Gay people exist.
If gay marriage is not legal or we are not open to sexual orientation diversity then gay people will be more likely to enter 'straight' marriages?

How is that in any way a good thing????
The whole procreation argument is also becoming silly with so much overpopulation and orphan children without a home.

If you are pro-family, then encourage marriage and tight families with proper support, be they gay or straight.
 
S

soul creator

Member
I would assume this is what all those "snarky fedora atheists hurhur" in other threads about the pope were getting at, heh.

Better PR/messaging is nice, but you can only polish flawed ideas so much.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
soul creator said:
I would assume this is what all those "snarky fedora atheists hurhur" in other threads about the pope were getting at, heh.

Better PR/messaging is nice, but you can only polish flawed ideas so much.
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That's pretty much it. Pope Francis is miles better than Benedict in that he doesn't have outward disdain for homosexuals. He doesn't judge them and asks Catholics not to as well. That's about as buttered up as you're going to get from the Church though. They still consider the act a sin against God.
 
R

riotous

Banned
boiled goose said:
I don't even understand why people say this.
Gay people exist.
If gay marriage is not legal or we are not open to sexual orientation diversity then gay people will be more likely to enter 'straight' marriages?

How is that in any way a good thing????
The whole procreation argument is also becoming silly with so much overpopulation and orphan children without a home.

If you are pro-family, then encourage marriage and tight families with proper support, be they gay or straight.
Click to expand...

Well from the Catholic perspective straight couples aren't supposed to care much about being attracted to each other either... no sex before marriage.. no contraception.. sex exists for procreation only, anything else is a sin.. gay or straight.

From that twisted logical point of view it makes a sort of sense.

Homosexual acts are just another sin; Catholics do not deny that they sin or pretend to be perfect.. they simply expect you to ask for forgiveness and continually seek to sin less if possible.

Whether it's gay sex, sex before marriage, sex with a condom between a straight couple.. masturbation.. merely thinking about how badly you want someone else, etc.. it's all sin. No matter which of these sins you may or may not commit you are still encouraged to create a family that is defined within the rules they believe God handed down.

It's why welcoming homosexuals to the church while damning the idea of gay marriage makes sense to the Pope. Cheating on your spouse is a sin, but they do not deny you entry in the church for adultery.
 
B

boiled goose

good with gravy
riotous said:
Well from the Catholic perspective straight couples aren't supposed to care much about being attracted to each other either... no sex before marriage.. no contraception.. sex exists for procreation only, anything else is a sin.. gay or straight.

From that twisted logical point of view it makes a sort of sense.

Homosexual acts are just another sin; Catholics do not deny that they sin or pretend to be perfect.. they simply expect you to ask for forgiveness and continually seek to sin less if possible.

Whether it's gay sex, sex before marriage, sex with a condom between a straight couple.. masturbation.. merely thinking about how badly you want someone else, etc.. it's all sin. No matter which of these sins you may or may not commit you are still encouraged to create a family that is defined within the rules they believe God handed down.

It's why welcoming homosexuals to the church while damning the idea of gay marriage makes sense to the Pope. Cheating on your spouse is a sin, but they do not deny you entry in the church for adultery.
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So I guess it is God's idea of a sick game that he made some people different and with more 'burdens'. I guess same applies to all suffering and disease, except in this case suffering is avoidable by simple acceptance. How people continue to believe this nonsense continually blows my mind.
 
R

riotous

Banned
Nazgul_Hunter said:
That is categorically not true though.
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Well I wasn't very clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust#Catholicism

I said "not care much." Which means.. you are supposed to be attracted to your partner and sexual desire is a recognized part of God's plan.. But you aren't supposed to be sexually driven outside of fulfilling God's plan of procreation.

"Not care much" isn't a bad paraphrasing of how Catholic's view sex even inside of a marriage.. any over indulgence of anything really is a sin. Lust for money, power, your spouse, etc.

I mean you aren't even supposed to test the waters before getting married...
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Frank . . . you were on a roll.

But now this 'you can't insult faith' and 'threaten traditional families' crap? Meh.

I guess you have to toe the line the a bit and keep the base happy.
 
H

hachi

Banned
Josh7289 said:
The pope has changed.
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Not at all. Did no one even read his address to the Humanum conference, shortly after all the popular reporting of the Synod?

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/11/17/full-text-pope-franciss-opening-address-to-humanum-conference/ said:
Dear brothers and sisters,

I warmly greet you. I thank Cardinal Muller for his words with which he introduced our meeting. I would like to begin by sharing with you a reflection on the title of your colloquium. You must admit that “complementarity” does not roll lightly off the tongue! Yet it is a word into which many meanings are compressed. It refers to situations where one of two things adds to, completes, or fulfills a lack in the other. But complementarity is much more than that. Yet complementarity is more than this. Christians find its deepest meaning in the first Letter to the Corinthians where Saint Paul tells us that the Spirit has endowed each of us with different gifts so that-just as the human body’s members work together for the good of the whole-everyone’s gifts can work together for the benefit of each. (cf. 1 Cor. 12). To reflect upon “complementarity” is nothing less than to ponder the dynamic harmonies at the heart of all Creation. This is a big word, harmony. All complementarities were made by our Creator, so the Author of harmony achieves this harmony.

It is fitting that you have gathered here in this international colloquium to explore the complementarity of man and woman. This complementarity is a root of marriage and family. For the family grounded in marriage is the first school where we learn to appreciate our own and others’ gifts, and where we begin to acquire the arts of cooperative living. For most of us, the family provides the principal place where we can aspire to greatness as we strive to realize our full capacity for virtue and charity. At the same time, as we know, families give rise to tensions: between egoism and altruism, reason and passion, immediate desires and long-range goals. But families also provide frameworks for resolving such tensions. This is important. When we speak of complementarity between man and woman in this context, let us not confuse that term with the simplistic idea that all the roles and relations of the two sexes are fixed in a single, static pattern. Complementarity will take many forms as each man and woman brings his or her distinctive contributions to their marriage and to the formation of their children — his or her personal richness, personal charisma. Complementarity becomes a great wealth. It is not just a good thing but it is also beautiful.

We know that today marriage and the family are in crisis. We now live in a culture of the temporary, in which more and more people are simply giving up on marriage as a public commitment. This revolution in manners and morals has often flown the flag of freedom, but in fact it has brought spiritual and material devastation to countless human beings, especially the poorest and most vulnerable.

Evidence is mounting that the decline of the marriage culture is associated with increased poverty and a host of other social ills, disproportionately affecting women, children and the elderly. It is always they who suffer the most in this crisis.

The crisis in the family has produced an ecological crisis, for social environments, like natural environments, need protection. And although the human race has come to understand the need to address conditions that menace our natural environments, we have been slower to recognize that our fragile social environments are under threat as well, slower in our culture, and also in our Catholic Church. It is therefore essential that we foster a new human ecology.

It is necessary first topromote the fundamental pillars that govern a nation: its non-material goods. The family is the foundation of co-existence and a remedy against social fragmentation. Children have a right to grow up in a family with a father and a mother capable of creating a suitable environment for the child’s development and emotional maturity. That is why I stressed in the Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium that the contribution of marriage to society is “indispensable”; that it “transcends the feelings and momentary needs of the couple.” (n. 66) And that is why I am grateful to you for your Colloquium’s emphasis on the benefits that marriage can provide to children, the spouses themselves, and to society.

In these days, as you embark on a reflection on the beauty of complementarity between man and woman in marriage, I urge you to lift up yet another truth about marriage: that permanent commitment to solidarity, fidelity and fruitful love responds to the deepest longings of the human heart. I urge you to bear in mind especially the young people, who represent our future. Commit yourselves, so that our youth do not give themselves over to the poisonous environment of the temporary, but rather be revolutionaries with the courage to seek true and lasting love, going against the common pattern.

Do not fall into the trap of being swayed by political notion. Family is an anthropological fact – a socially and culturally related fact. We cannot qualify it based on ideological notions or concepts important only at one time in history. We can’t think of conservative or progressive notions. Family is a family. It can’t be qualified by ideological notions. Family is per se. It is a strength per se.

I pray that your colloquium will be an inspiration to all who seek to support and strengthen the union of man and woman in marriage as a unique, natural, fundamental and beautiful good for persons, communities, and whole societies.
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His position is very clear and consistent, and Catholic, whether or not one agrees with it.
 
R

riotous

Banned
Fudgepuppy said:
"Hey dope pope, you need to cut back on the progressive stuff, it's ruining our rep" - The Vatican.
Click to expand...

I think it's really more like "We cherry picked statements to make the Pope look super liberal for clicks, now let's cherry pick to make it seem like he's changed!" - The Media

(not meant to be snarky, but the Pope's statements on gay marriage aren't anything new)
 
R

riotous

Banned
boiled goose said:
So I guess it is God's idea of a sick game that he made some people different and with more 'burdens'. I guess same applies to all suffering and disease, except in this case suffering is avoidable by simple acceptance. How people continue to believe this nonsense continually blows my mind.
Click to expand...

Pretty much; temptations are a test of humanities will.

At the very least Catholic dogma doesn't focus too much on the idea that humans should seek perfection in their lives.. the Dogma is about being humble under the glory of God (and Jesus, and don't forget Mary the virgin).. recognizing that you are a sinner, and seeking forgiveness for your sins.
 
T

Tugatrix

Member
Francis man did they put an horse head on your bed?

Mariage used and still is a contract, just some decades ago fathers used to sell their daughters, how can you defend the remains of such abomination?
 
B

boiled goose

good with gravy
riotous said:
Pretty much; temptations are a test of humanities will.

At the very least Catholic dogma doesn't focus too much on the idea that humans should seek perfection in their lives.. the Dogma is about being humble under the glory of God (and Jesus, and don't forget Mary the virgin).. recognizing that you are a sinner, and seeking forgiveness for your sins.
Click to expand...

Not as bad?? meh.

As a former Catholic, I find the whole 'you are sick' and 'we have the cure' dogma pretty disgusting.
 
B

bannedmelon

Banned
Don't worry, for plenty of people this will just blow over, just like the things he said in the past blew over which is how some people still manage to be surprised.
 
W

wildfire

Banned
Daft Fear said:
Yeah…. I thought his comments on the Charlie Hebdo attack were pretty bad, and now this?

....

I should just give up the hope that one of these days a Pope will wake up and realize the world is a complex and beautiful place when you stop being so exclusive of everyone.
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Considering his earlier statements I would suggest seeing more nuance in his approach. He seems to be advocating infinite forgiveness and patience with homosexuality.

That said he firmly asserts the church won't administer wedding ceremonies to such couples.

This is still a step up over exclusion outside of wedding ceremonies which some cardinals tried advocating.

The one thing I dislike about the Pope's speech is that he assumes homosexual couples aren't open to creating new life. Well they are but currently aren't capable of doing it through natural means. Various medical technology though is converging to make that possible without assistance from a surrogate sperm or egg donor.
 
Q

Qassim

Member
Aureon said:
May need a pinch of perspective, here.

The pope is in the Vatican, which is to say, Italy.

Italy has the third-lowest fertility rate of the world (1.4), after South Korea and Japan, and is going through a pretty harsh demographic crisis, with 2x the number of 29-34ers than 0-4ers, and 27% pension tax.
So, yes. At the moment, more reproduction would very much be helpful in italy.
Click to expand...

And for some more perspective, that reproduction rate is entirely unaffected by gay people being able to marry.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
I'm personally bloodletting all of my goats over my new pentagram altar so that the SCOTUS will legalize gay marriage nationwide.
 
Y

Yen

Member
The whole "what can you expect? It's a long tradition, it's in the bible, of course he won't approve of ssm etc" spiel bugs me. He can't be that interested in equality and is out of touch with the modern world, and I'm not sure those are valid defences for that.
edit: yeah, I'm being overly reductionist, but eh.
 
K

krypt0nian

Banned
Lo! And so it came to pass the the Cool Pope was no more. His name struck from the gay temple walls; his effigy burned at Andrew Christian outlets across the land.
 
E

Earthstrike

Member
Aureon said:
If i should even need to note this, i do not endorse nor excuse the veiled homophobic behavior of the catholic church.



May need a pinch of perspective, here.

The pope is in the Vatican, which is to say, Italy.

Italy has the third-lowest fertility rate of the world (1.4), after South Korea and Japan, and is going through a pretty harsh demographic crisis, with 2x the number of 29-34ers than 0-4ers, and 27% pension tax.
So, yes. At the moment, more reproduction would very much be helpful in italy.
Click to expand...

Well, either that or immigration, since immigrants have kids at a quicker rate than the general population in most developed countries.
 
C

Chariot

Member
Wait, are we sure that this is the real Francis and not some robot double the archbishops build to replace him as an more suitable leader for them?
 
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