phosphor112
Banned
I'm not taking what he's saying with much grain, but you haven't contributed anything yourself.
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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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I'm not taking what he's saying with much grain, but you haven't contributed anything yourself.
Thats not quite the way it works.
bigtroyjon
Member
I'm pretty sure that's exactly how determining the reliability of someone's information works.
dragonelite
Member
More like 720->PS4->PC as after thought but atleast all games will feature some level of dx11 on pc unless you are From Software.
Yes, except it goes the other way around.
Sounds accurate.
Yeah, I can see them both targeting the same general performance figures.
It's likely each will have it's own strength and weakness, much like this gen, but I don't see either one eclipsing the other in terms of overall performance.
The only small concern I have regarding the PS4 is that OpenGL is not as mature as DX11 so that may require more work on Sony's side to prepare the API for the system. Maybe I'm wrong on this though.
Yeah, it could lead to better yields, that's true. That would just help with production though, not with the performance of the systems.
IMO it's too early to jump to any conclusions just yet.
phosphor112
Banned
Unless the chips they were waiting for were better, but just had poor yields.
I don't expect a jump in chips
AMD is indeed laying off people.
Switching CPUs (i.e. from Steamroller to Jaguar) would indeed cause a delay. Microsoft may have been targeting the lower-power cores from the start hence no delay.
From what very little I know, however, AMD has more engineers working on Microsoft's console so there is more resources on that project.
Switching CPUs (i.e. from Steamroller to Jaguar) would indeed cause a delay. Microsoft may have been targeting the lower-power cores from the start hence no delay.
From what very little I know, however, AMD has more engineers working on Microsoft's console so there is more resources on that project.
Where is the darth vader pic with the big NO!!!!!!
Remember when the Xbox was more powerful?
We still had games from Sony that looked like this.
Leave it to the devs to craft something truly amazing. Power helps, but dev creativity speaks for itself.
Multiplatform development has not been kind to the PlayStation brand this generation. There have been significant short cuts taken to make games run on the console. I really hope the next generation will allow Sony to factor in things like "free anti-aliasing", texture fill rate, and alpha effects.
Read more closely... MS is going with CPU+GPU, Sony is going with APU+GPU. Exclusive games could still end up very similar...
But will they both run Crysis 1 correctly this time?
Post-process AA works great at higher resolutions. Personally I don't see any reason for MSAA at 1080p, the MLAA on AMD drivers works great for me.
Remember that MSAA was introduced as a short cut for rendering at a higher internal resolution. MLAA is a shortcut for MSAA and it's becoming more relevant as we render at higher resolutions in the first place and just trimming the edges results in excellent image quality.
I'd like to know more about what your friend meant with "same chip."
Is it in the same family of chips i.e. Pitcairn, where the 7770 has 640 SP's and the 7750 has 512? They are still the same chip.
Or is it the same exact chip, in which case it's still not enough info to ascertain the performance. AMD 6630 and 6670 are the same chip but 6670 is clocked higher and uses GDDR5 and thus has more than 2x the bandwidth, and ends up being more than 50% faster on PC.
In short we need more info
Technically, a 7970 is the same chip as a 7750. They're all 28nm GCN parts, in other words.
What I think he was trying to say, in a non-technical manner, is that his friend told him they're equivalent to a consumer 77xx/78xx.
Probably like an underclocked Pitcairn-ish part, as has been a pretty consistent rumour.
Coldfoot said:
Post process AA, even the newer/better ones, is always off on my PC and I game at 1080p. It always manages to soften the image in some form. I'd rather play with no AA than post-processed AA.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I find it funny people say Sony has no money but then you hear about them buying companies or investing in something all the time.
PS division( where ever it is now) is on of the few places that makes money for Sony there not going to cheap out on PS4 but at the same time they have to get ROI.
It is all a balancing act ( something they did great with PS1 and PS2 but fail big time with PS3 ) the same can be said for MS .
These companies are not going to lose billions of dollars just to say look i have 400Gflops more than each other when that small amount won't even matter .
PS division( where ever it is now) is on of the few places that makes money for Sony there not going to cheap out on PS4 but at the same time they have to get ROI.
It is all a balancing act ( something they did great with PS1 and PS2 but fail big time with PS3 ) the same can be said for MS .
These companies are not going to lose billions of dollars just to say look i have 400Gflops more than each other when that small amount won't even matter .
I've read that even with higher fidelity, Kinect 2 shouldn't require a lot of memory.
This is one of the many reasons why I'm a multi-console owner and will be again next gen.
Don't remember where I saw it, but I wouldn't bet on either having the more powerful GPU.
At least they won't be as bad as the current methods. There's a chance PPAA can look pretty good next gen.
Honestly at 1080p, I would prefer developer's to focus on things like post processing effects, higher quality textures, and complex environmental geometry. I'm sure we will find a balance.
I wouldn't bet on anything with the vague info we have so far...I am either hoping that:
XBL fee goes away and the xbox is more powerful
OR
PS4 is more powerful (and still free online)
OR
Windows 8 gets all Xbox games + free XBL (best scenario)
And last but not least... Stable 30fps or 60fps.
While 1080p isn't the limit for human eyesight, it results in some damn small pixels and I have been finding 1080p + MLAA very very good for gaming on PC with no stair stepping that would irritate me at a lower resolution. Maybe you have younger and sharper eyes than me.
Sometimes you guys expect too much. Development on consoles is always going to be about compromises. For example, if you want 1080p you're going to sacrifice other things. If you want 60fps you're going to have to sacrifice other things (like resolution, detail, etc). Real AA eats a lot of resources as well, which is why people have come up with these various vaseline filters this gen. etc etc
Unfortunately I don't see any of the three options turning out true =/
MS will likely still charge for XBL, which IMO will hinder their ability to take advantage of f2p games. PSN may still be free, but I don't think either console will be more powerful. I also don't see all Xbox games moving over to Windows 8 since that would lessen the value of the 720 and give people less reason to pick it up.
XtremeXpider
Member
I want AA even at 1080p.
Uhhh... We had more stable framerates last gen. I'm not just talking about 60fps games... I mean 30fps games too.
Cinematic Framerate games became the norm this gen.
It's nice to want things. Developer's will take every short cut necessary. I am praying we see a visual fidelity similar to the Agnis Philosophy demo at 720p, with slightly lower AA.
With time, programming improvements could really push things forward and that tech demo might end up being "LOL" worthy.
Ever wondered why the lack of advertising for the Vita? The fact they have sold assets such as their stake in LCD?
Sony are under massive stress right now. Whatever they are spending money on is obviously important in their eyes to their future for survival. I'm sure if Sony had the dollars, they'd be putting everything into marketing the Vita and its games, unlike the actual reality.
I really don't agree with this. I've played plenty of games last gen that have sub-30 frame rates.
Let's not jump to conclusions =p
In my gaming collection I can't really say.
I don't remember lots of PS2, GC, and Xbox games performing like Shadow Of The Colossus.
Maybe Half Life 2 on Xbox. But I never played it.
This. Sony came into this generation with almost obscene arrogance. No company holds its monopoly forever, but to go from the dominance of the PS2 to having to hang on to MS's coat tails is amazing.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Fuck post-processed AA, the "blue filter" employed on PS3 games this generations was a MAJOR turn off... at least let us disable that crap in the settings I want a razar sharp image not a blur fest.
dragonelite
Member
Can we expect a 720p kinect 2 next gen?
If so then we can calculate the memory requirement for the buffers.
You need a extra 7.2mB of extra ram for double buffered depth info at 32 bits/pixel thats quite big considering that most sensors are 10 bits if i should believe the Elektro guys
Skeleton information shouldn't take that much info. Maybe some extra memory for different datastructures with predefined poses. So i would be surprised if kinect 2 took more then 10mb of memory. For 1080p kinect it shouldn't take more then 20mb.
AMD HSA should be perfect for kinect having the gpu process the incoming depth info.
I believe Lionhead or Rare already did that on the 360.
gundamkyoukai
Member
They selling there stake in LCD with Samsung was one of the best things they could have done there TV business has been a dead end for years .
Another problem is you have is thinking Sony care about Vita as much as PS4 .
Trust me when PS4 comes out you will see Sony spend money , if they had to kill Vita for PS4 they would do it .
The next iteration of Kinect will be looking at much more skeletal info and a bigger database to work with.
Sony is not willfully wanting to kill Vita.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I am saying if they had no choice in the matter , of course they want it to sell and make money .
Still most of there resources going to spend on PS4 compare to Vita .
jeff_rigby
Banned
Thru my filter, the 22nm part is believeable. Matches info that Microsoft was sent the Chip for testing. GloFlo is going to be 22nm and TSMC is 20nm.http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/104116.html said:Insider: Cliffy b ... Is going to be the head man at ms e3 2013 is going to be the biggest day in video game history. ms has over 30 studios making games the best of the best. Phil is genius
Misterxmedia: WOW, just wow. I knew Cliffy B left for MS side. Glad to hear about Phil and his achivements allready. Great news.
Insider: Dev kit is 22nm 20 will be final hardware or 22 ether or is 25% better. These system will have big power overheads 400watt+ over heads.. people can say what they think massive jump "massive jump" sony wont have the most powerfull console next round. 720 is deffently 30% more powerfull thrn ps4. Ms have open the bank. Cliffy b. And others are working 130% on system games. There is x devs from nintendo/sony first party working on games ms has hired the whos who of developers. 30 lunch game window. but every thing is tied down but there is a massive leak on the intetnet about to surface your going to be shocked.
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/david-manners-semiconductor-blog/2012/10/14nm-is-the-equaliser-says-glo.html said:
Their TV business was not dead in the sense that they weren't necessarily selling, more it was losing them seas of money and it had got to a point where they have had to take such drastic actions for the sake of their survival.
So, because the Vita isn't as important as the PS4, they do not care about it?
The only way the dev kit is 22nm if it's using the newest Intel Xeons (I don't think it is, though - I think they are older ones).
The Jaguars will be 28nm, as will the GCN GPUs.
GF/TSMC is struggling enough currently with 28nm yields, and widespread issues with smaller processes are well known in their immaturity and price. Die shrinks are not going to be much of a factor next gen, imo, hence the importance of initial pricing.
The Jaguars will be 28nm, as will the GCN GPUs.
GF/TSMC is struggling enough currently with 28nm yields, and widespread issues with smaller processes are well known in their immaturity and price. Die shrinks are not going to be much of a factor next gen, imo, hence the importance of initial pricing.
I think Sony would need a substantially more powerful GPU to compete with MS next gen. I just don't see Sony touching MS in providing tools, especially tools for parallel processing. Parallel processing is why I believe MS is going with the setup its going with. Corrine Yu has been playing around with parallel processing for a while and thinks its the future. She's on the directx board and seems to influence at MS through out the company.
Though recently I've been thinking Sony won't be in the games industry after the PS4 if they are out to compete with MS.
Though recently I've been thinking Sony won't be in the games industry after the PS4 if they are out to compete with MS.
I remember play some Clancy games like GRAW 2 on both the xbox and ps2 having moments of frame drops. Same with one of the Sonic games on the ps2, GTA games, Doom 3 and HL2 on the xbox, etc.
It was similar to this gen IMO.
I believe you're thinking of QAA by referring to the PS3 specifically, which I agree is pretty bad. KZ2 and Dirt are probably the only games that use QAA and don't bother me. Most of the PPAA implementations haven't been nearly as bad.
Can we expect a 720p kinect 2 next gen?
If so then we can calculate the memory requirement for the buffers.
You need a extra 7.2mB of extra ram for double buffered depth info at 32 bits/pixel thats quite big considering that most sensors are 10 bits if i should believe the Elektro guys
Skeleton information shouldn't take that much info. Maybe some extra memory for different datastructures with predefined poses. So i would be surprised if kinect 2 took more then 10mb of memory. For 1080p kinect it shouldn't take more then 20mb.
AMD HSA should be perfect for kinect having the gpu process the incoming depth info.
I believe Lionhead or Rare already did that on the 360.
I have no idea over anything regarding Kinect. The tech is interesting, but I've been turned off by it as a gaming input device. I don't even want it standard in the next xbox because I don't want to be forced to buy it if I pick up the system. =p
Edit:
Agreed. I don't even understand why people are questioning 22nm in this thread all of a sudden.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Not according to the recent news article.
Test chips have been produced and sent to clients, Microsoft from two "Rumors" just got their test chips (One rumor it's a 22nm or 20nm). Timing fits.http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/david-manners-semiconductor-blog/2012/10/14nm-is-the-equaliser-says-glo.html said:
Because of the following RECENT news article I started going back and rereading cites.KageMaru said:
The above meets the need of a Game console "the performance should be stretched at the launch time" and multiple Forges can produce it. (GloFlo & IBM are currently 28nm gate first so designs for them can't work with TSMC. At 20nm AMD is moving to gate-last and that design can be produced by TSMC.)http://www.guru3d.com/news_printer/amd_20132014_and_2015_gpu_codenames.html said:
gundamkyoukai
Member
Really now Jeff that whole post\site seem like bullshit .
Right now even Intel is having problems at 22nm and there are also wide know problems with GF/TSMC at 28nm .
Lol the whole site is about bashing Sony and calling out fan boys on neogaf what a waste of a click .
GF is certainly not known for gross embellishment or missing deadlines or anything
While were at it lets say they using 14nm .......
phosphor112
Banned
Sony has been doing parallel processing all this gen. ;]
Though I thoroughly expect MS to have better tools...
jeff_rigby
Banned
Google search TSMC 20nm, all news is the last 6 days; same for the AMD/GoFlo 20nm news. The Mistermedia post is 12 days old so the sweetvar26 post could be copying it and Mistermedia is trolling us but if they are from separate sources at least the news that test chips are now being sent out is accurate. I don't know how Mistermedia could know 20nm is now available from TSMC and GloFlo a week before it hit the news unless he has inside sources.Really now Jeff that whole post\site seem like bullshit .
Right now even Intel is having problems at 22nm and there are also wide know problems with GF/TSMC at 28nm .
Lol the whole site is about bashing Sony and calling out fan boys on neogaf what a waste of a click .
While were at it lets say they using 14nm .......
phosphor112
Banned
From what I recall, 14nm is counter intuitive to production and costs and will see basically zero benefit for how much money they have to put it in, just to get something out of it. That's what I recall. I think it was an article over a year ago though... things change.While were at it lets say they using 14nm .......
Anyway, GF has a 14nm process going =D
gundamkyoukai
Member
I did but i don't see it being ready in time but we will see.
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