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Russell "Why Not?" Westbrook Named NBA MVP
- Thread starter Tragicomedy
- Start date
Colonel Nasty
Member
Lebron should have been finals MVP. He averaged a triple double.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I feel like it's really, really hard to complain about Russ winning MVP.
He carried a bag of bums to the playoffs. Reminded me of the early LeBron years when his best running mates were the likes of Zedrunis Illgaskus, Jamario Moon, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow, JJ Hickson, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes. In retrospect, LeBron's greatness can't be understated to have carried those husks to the NBA Finals.
Outside of a very medicore but servicable front court in Adams & Huges, Roberson (only because it's my mother's maiden name) + Oladipo, I can't even name any other players on that team.
Grats, Russ. For being willing to carry those scrubs for 82+ games. Better man than most, especially after having seen NBA Finals levels of success and being 1 win away just the year before.
He carried a bag of bums to the playoffs. Reminded me of the early LeBron years when his best running mates were the likes of Zedrunis Illgaskus, Jamario Moon, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow, JJ Hickson, Sasha Pavlovic, and Larry Hughes. In retrospect, LeBron's greatness can't be understated to have carried those husks to the NBA Finals.
Outside of a very medicore but servicable front court in Adams & Huges, Roberson (only because it's my mother's maiden name) + Oladipo, I can't even name any other players on that team.
Grats, Russ. For being willing to carry those scrubs for 82+ games. Better man than most, especially after having seen NBA Finals levels of success and being 1 win away just the year before.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
At least it wasn't LeBron for the 80 billionth time.
It'll be interesting to see what Westbrook and the Thunder do in the offseason. He's got a lot of power in the organization right now being a free agent. Either the Thunder get some big time pieces around him (and I mean BIG time) or he's heading to Cleveland or Golden State (but not the Knicks. PLEASE not the Knicks)
It'll be interesting to see what Westbrook and the Thunder do in the offseason. He's got a lot of power in the organization right now being a free agent. Either the Thunder get some big time pieces around him (and I mean BIG time) or he's heading to Cleveland or Golden State (but not the Knicks. PLEASE not the Knicks)
DarkJediKnight
Member
No he shouldn't have been. Cavs beat Warriors in 6 if not for Durant. Durant turned an already good franchise into possibly the best shooting team of all time.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm using outliers to explain why a statistic isn't meaningful because that's how you determine if a statistic is meaningful. If you have to add all of these qualifiers to a triple double (how many points did he score, how well did he shoot, did he turn it over a lot, did his teammates play well off of him?) to decide if a triple double is impressive, then simply the act of getting a triple double itself doesn't tell you much, and there are much better ways to analyze a player's performance, and much better stats to tell you that.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Ninja Scooter
Member
Simply that there are far better cases you can make for Russ' MVP worth than a completely random and arbitrary grouping of numbers.
I can't stand it when people say this about his rebounds, when he's casually out-rebounding 7 footers and shit from time to time. Totally discredits how hard it is to rebound as a point guard. His teammates let him rebound the ball occasionally so that he can start a fast break to get an easy bucket. Nevertheless, OKC still led the league in rebounding this year so it's clear it's not just Russ getting all the easy ones on his team.
Oh yeah, let's pretend a team that has the best SG in the league, the 6th man of the year, God-mode Nene (see 1st round against OKC), Lou Williams, and 1st team all defense Patrick Beverly isn't one of the better teams in the league. Compare that to Russ, who plays with a starting shooting guard that went 2-12 from the free throw line in playoff game, a bunch of rookies and young players, and Kyle fucking Singler.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Hardly. Talking about his triple doubles works for him (and most players who get triple doubles) since he wasn't averaging them while stinking it up on the floor.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Ninja Scooter
Member
And how do you determine that he wasn't stinking up the floor while getting a triple double?
MugiwaraCole
Member
If you're asking me whether or not the MVP winner's stats stunk lol
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Challenge, argue for wb scooter and see what you can come up with against someone opposing him.
Ninja Scooter
Member
No I'm saying in general if someone gets a triple double, how do you determine if they played well or stunk up the joint?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Triple double is an entirely meaningless metric. It doesn't highlight how that player actually performed on the night in question. It just tells you 10/10/10 was passed. I don't get the value placed on it. If a player averaged a triple double at 10/10/10 and Lebron put up 26/8/8 would we really think the first stat is more valuable?
Russ is deserving but if triple double is all that we are using to put Russ over Harden I think that is mostly laughable. Why not put value on wins then? They dont really tell you how well someone played but they definitely are shiney and fin
Russ is deserving but if triple double is all that we are using to put Russ over Harden I think that is mostly laughable. Why not put value on wins then? They dont really tell you how well someone played but they definitely are shiney and fin
ryutaro's mama
Member
By watching the games and not trying to apply some outlier to make the the entire thing "meaningless".
You could apply that outlier razor to any sports acheivement and make it appear less than meaningful.
QB throws for 400+ yards...pitcher throws a no hitter, a hat trick, etc.
What does setting records have to do with being the MVP?
How far did OKC go in the playoffs? Which team knocked them out again I can't remember
Latvian Hitman
Member
Gotdatmoney
Member
You don't pick MVP of your league based off those metrics. You don't give the Cy Young to someone because they threw a no hitter.
Going by this logic Kawhi should be MVP because he knocked out Harden.
MVP is a regular season award given to the player who most impacts his team throughout the entire season and is invaluable to them winning. YNB arguably fills that more than Harden and Kawhi. OKC would be straight up garbage without him.
ryutaro's mama
Member
But you DO give the CY Young based on a pitcher's performance, correct? Do we use some outlier metric to try and discredit his year?
Ninja Scooter
Member
So you are saying there are better ways of analyzing a player's performance than simply the act of getting a triple double, which is all I've been trying to say. To say "a triple double alone doesn't tell you much, but in Russ' case it tells you a lot because **insert qualifiers here**" is the entire point. In this case you are admitting it's not simply that Russ averaged a triple double that makes his season impressive. Triple Double is it not the be all/end all, hell its barely even really a stat. Due to historical context it's fun to follow, I get that, I just get annoyed when people take the stance of "he averaged a triple double case closed!" Which I heard a lot with this year's MVP race. It's lazy.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I don't think anyone is saying Russ isn't deserving. I think we are saying the tripe double is a dumb narrative.
This is exactly how I see Westbrook's numbers - unless he is the third option his play style absolutely puts a ceiling on his team's potential. And that doesn't even count the compromised play style he had to implement in order to get the arbitrary counting stat title this year.
FreedomFighter
Member
There was no other choice. He deserved it more than anyone else.
ryutaro's mama
Member
If a guy averaged a triple double, there is a better chance than not that he balled the fuck out. What you are presenting is a semantic argument. There is no need to go through the rigamarole you are doing.
Yes, in theory you are correct, Russ would be no less qualified for MVP if he averaged 9 rebounds or 9 assists. He would have still had a stellar year BUT the fact that it was a triple double is just icing on the cake.
He wasn't getting mariginal triple doubles and the impact it had on his team and their year is without question.
Same for James but like I have said, at that point it becomes a coin flip.
Latvian Hitman
Member
I think there's a fair bit of grey area between triple doubles being 'the be-all, end-all' and them being 'totally meaningless', and the truth lies somewhere in between. You're not averaging a triple-double and not having an MVP-like effect on your team. There's a reason it hadn't been done in 55 years, and it wasn't simply that it hadn't occurred to anyone to try in that span of time.
I agree that saying "he averaged a triple-double, case closed" is a lazy argument, though.
I don't think they're that much better with him either though. They only finished 6 in the west and went 4-1 against the Rockets in the first round. I don't think the MVP should awarded based on averaging a triple double.
I think you can make a better case for either Harden or Kawhi getting the MVP.
Kawhi was the best player all year. IT was probably the most valuable player on a team that mattered and performed above expectations. I'd take either over WB/Harden. Westbrook wouldn't even start for the Warriors :/.
Mrstriker09
Member
Harden should've won. I feel bad for the guy always ends up in second place. Everyone didn't even talk about Rockets before season started, thinking their a 7th or 8th seed team going into the season. Heck some people had the Thunder over them.
Its not Harden fault that Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson was finally healthy for a whole season. A lot of NBA teams thought their was done because of injury after injury an Rockets gave them a chance. Same goes fore Nene washed up but wasn't.
Harden made those guys look even better and get easy shots. It was tons of games Rockets would've lost if Harden wasn't in the game this season.
I thought Harden was clearly the better candidate until last 10 games-ish, then Westbrook elevated his game while Harden just continue doing what he was doing.
Its not Harden fault that Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson was finally healthy for a whole season. A lot of NBA teams thought their was done because of injury after injury an Rockets gave them a chance. Same goes fore Nene washed up but wasn't.
Harden made those guys look even better and get easy shots. It was tons of games Rockets would've lost if Harden wasn't in the game this season.
I thought Harden was clearly the better candidate until last 10 games-ish, then Westbrook elevated his game while Harden just continue doing what he was doing.
Hyperactivity
Banned
2006 MVP race went to Nash, and it wasn't even close. Nash had a 56 win record, 3rd best record in the western conference (2nd seed though), a fellow all-star in Shawn Marion, and far lower stats compared to the guy who was considered his main competition, Kobe.
Kobe averaged 35 ppg, made a first all-defense team, and dragged a far worse team (Kwame Brown and Smush Parker anybody?) to 46 wins and the 7th seed.
If you look at the voting though:
Code:
Voti Per Shoo Adva
Rank Player Age Tm First Pts Won Pts Max Share G MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK FG% 3P% FT% WS WS/48
1 Steve Nash 31 PHO 57.0 924.0 1250 0.739 79 35.4 18.8 4.2 10.5 0.8 0.2 .512 .439 .921 12.4 .212
2 LeBron James 21 CLE 16.0 688.0 1250 0.550 79 42.5 31.4 7.0 6.6 1.6 0.8 .480 .335 .738 16.3 .232
3 Dirk Nowitzki 27 DAL 14.0 544.0 1250 0.435 81 38.1 26.6 9.0 2.8 0.7 1.0 .480 .406 .901 17.7 .275
4 Kobe Bryant 27 LAL 22.0 483.0 1250 0.386 80 41.0 35.4 5.3 4.5 1.8 0.4 .450 .347 .850 15.3 .224
5 Chauncey Billups 29 DET 15.0 430.0 1250 0.344 81 36.1 18.5 3.1 8.6 0.9 0.1 .418 .433 .894 15.5 .254
6 Dwyane Wade 24 MIA 0.0 87.0 1250 0.070 75 38.6 27.2 5.7 6.7 1.9 0.8 .495 .171 .783 14.4 .239
7 Elton Brand 26 LAC 1.0 50.0 1250 0.040 79 39.2 24.7 10.0 2.6 1.0 2.5 .527 .333 .775 14.8 .229
8 Tim Duncan 29 SAS 0.0 33.0 1250 0.026 80 34.8 18.6 11.0 3.2 0.9 2.0 .484 .400 .629 10.8 .187
9 Tony Parker 23 SAS 0.0 9.0 1250 0.007 80 33.9 18.9 3.3 5.8 1.0 0.1 .548 .306 .707 9.6 .169
10T Allen Iverson 30 PHI 0.0 1.0 1250 0.001 72 43.1 33.0 3.2 7.4 1.9 0.1 .447 .323 .814 10.6 .165
10T Shawn Marion 27 PHO 0.0 1.0 1250 0.001 81 40.3 21.8 11.8 1.8 2.0 1.7 .525 .331 .809 14.6 .214Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 6/27/2017.
It wasn't really that close at all. Yet somehow, Nash got the MVP in 2006 (actually think it was a fair pick, although I think Dirk in '06 and Nash in '07 was likely a better choice) and Harden won't get it now.
Think about it this way. If next year, the exact same records and stats and everything happen, Westbrook probably loses the MVP to Harden without the narratives of averaging a triple double for the first time since Big O and Kevin Durant leaving to help him
EDIT: And yeah, the 2006 MVP race is what really, really bothers me about this MVP. The two just don't go together, they can't both accepted as a pair, there's too much of a contradiction here.
Diprosalic
Banned
Latvian Hitman
Member
Neither would Isiah Thomas. Shoe-horning Harden into your starting lineup wouldn't come without collateral damage, either.
You spoiled brats kind of have a special situation there in GS right now.
Diprosalic
Banned
Cavs would beat the Warriors in 6 without KD when they needed a miracle last year to win in 7 with a hobbled Curry and a Draymond suspension?
please.
Agreed - but his impact on a meaningful team was greater than Westbrook's. Harden could potentially start as I think he has the elasticity to his game although I'm just sure that would work out. Kawhi would definitely start as the Warriors would just forgo a real center entirely (in the starting lineup).
Hyperactivity
Banned
I honestly disagree. Well, actually, the better way to put it is that I think Curry had a better argument than Westbrook. The Warriors came out of nowhere and got 67 wins. Curry led in most of the advanced stats that year.
There were fair argument though that you can't just extrapolate Curry's stats to make them better with more minutes, because players get more tired with more minutes (it's why PER36 is a pretty terrible stat).
The other thing that bugs me is that Harden also carried a fucking terrible roster with a terrible coach to 56 wins and the 2nd seed that year. If he had that year in 2017, even with the worse stats, would the fact that he had a worse roster and took his team to that many wins get him the MVP over Westbrook? And if 2017 Harden was better than 2015 Harden, why wasn't he the MVP?
I just don't know man. MVP is narrative over all else, that's what this year shows.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Eh Warriors were sucky in a bunch of the games outside of Durant. He was the only one consistent basically the whole series.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Also, OKC's defensive core is incredibly underrated. Players like Gibson, Roberson, Adams, Oladipo, etc. were great defensively.
and curry obviously
CopperPuppy
Member
The funny thing about this is most teams manhandle Curry on every play. The dude can't get a call to save his life.