What the merry fuck did I just read?
In fairness, the entire thread is full of shite, so it's almost mean to pick on one post to quote.
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Scottish government apparently preparing to demand new referendum
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In fairness, the entire thread is full of shite, so it's almost mean to pick on one post to quote.
AuthenticM
Member
GO SCOTLAND GO
Oh but that's what people are convinced it is. When Scotland struck oil we MASSIVELY subsidised the UK and Thatcher's tax cuts for years. People conveniently forget that. If we'd been independent back then we could be in a position like Norway with a pretty large reserve of cash. Sure it's all in the past now but we pumped that wealth in and now people have the cheek to turn round and make out our entire nation is a scrounger... nope.
Whiskey is counted a Scotland's exports. The GERS figures are signed off by the snp government no one disputes them other than mentalists https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/whytepaper.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/meme-busting-whisky-and-the-non-existent-export-duty/amp/?client=safari
Orniletter
Banned
My favourite aspect of these threads is the outragous EU disaster porn.
Especially Madness' utter delusions whenever the EU is brought up.
Especially Madness' utter delusions whenever the EU is brought up.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This post is silly.
But that bit about Spain's "increasing nationalism" goes on to show how utterly lost you are.
France isn't leaving.
GamingKaiju
Member
I don't know why but a thought just popped into my head that Scotland are acting like the UK in the EU (pre-Brexit)
As an English man I would be gutted if Scotland left but I understand that recent events have changed your views on the union.
Perhaps wait to see what happens in negotiations and then decide whether the new status quo is better/worse. Trying to float another independence ref whilst Westminster is trying to get its shit together for article 50 won't go down well. Play the long game.
As an English man I would be gutted if Scotland left but I understand that recent events have changed your views on the union.
Perhaps wait to see what happens in negotiations and then decide whether the new status quo is better/worse. Trying to float another independence ref whilst Westminster is trying to get its shit together for article 50 won't go down well. Play the long game.
The polls haven't really shifted much in favour of independence though have they? It could all be a bit premature
Frankly if I lived in Scotland I'd be voting to leave now. The only reason I was slightly in favour of stay before (not that I had a vote) was due to the "unknown". If Scotland is going into the unknown with Brexit anyway, why not choose go into the unknown as an independent country?
Frankly if I lived in Scotland I'd be voting to leave now. The only reason I was slightly in favour of stay before (not that I had a vote) was due to the "unknown". If Scotland is going into the unknown with Brexit anyway, why not choose go into the unknown as an independent country?
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Nah. Tories need to feel the same uncertainty they've caused on millions of people in Britain.
I hope she doesn't set a date for the referendum too soon. Drag it out, watch it all burn, then announce a ref.
The 'unknown' being what exactly happens with Brexit. Economically, it could be hugely damaging or it could end up being pretty watered down from Theresa May's intentions of a hard Brexit, meaning not too much of a difference.
The chances of Independence being economically damaging at least in the short term is a lot higher.
So it really comes down to 'Do you want to split from the UK because the ideaologies are so far apart you're willing to take an economical hit?'
It's too early for me to answer that question.
Then again, I'm still reasonably hopeful that the insanity will eventually end and politics will actually happen, resulting in the least damaging compromise to honour the referendum.
We all have dreams.
Countries are better in a union of equals like the EU. The United Kingdom isn't that, England's comparative size and the complete lack of any protection for other component parts that you'd get in say a Federal system means that it's Englands show, and everyone else gets dragged along willingly or not.
Lets take back control.
I couldn't blame Scotland one bit if they did end up leaving the union, even if it ultimately ends up being against their own interests (a la Brexit, ironically). Theresa May and her cronies have shown nothing but disdain for their supposed friends north of the border and their attitude towards a hard Brexit shows a complete unwillingness to listen and compromise. I almost hope that the collapse of the union is May's legacy and history remembers her as the poisonous individual that she is.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Yeah it's impossible for small countries to split from a union and be successful
Please take us back UK, love ireland.
Please take us back UK, love ireland.
I'm also aware that the majority of Scotland's exports are with rUK.
I'd be surprised if we'd be given a nice trade deal from the UK government that helps us rather than hinders us in the event of a Yes vote.
(The appetite for another quickfire referendum seems low though, I'm still surprised they're trying to push this so early)
I'd be surprised if we'd be given a nice trade deal from the UK government that helps us rather than hinders us in the event of a Yes vote.
(The appetite for another quickfire referendum seems low though, I'm still surprised they're trying to push this so early)
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
I was in Ireland a few days ago. It's a lovely place and incredibly happy. Scotland deserves to see what it feels like to be an independent part of a Union that respects all its members.
Scotland has some of the most devolved powers of any federal state in the world. It gets more than equal representation in government.
Why is there a notion that it doesn't get respect, or that Scottish people aren't free?
Voted YES to leave Team GB the last time and would do so again in a heartbeat.
Would be interested in a vote from the other side of the border pretty sure it would be a resounding let them leave.
The winners of the past two campaigns Independence & Brexit have been won on lies, fear and hate(Brexit) IMO.
Would be interested in a vote from the other side of the border pretty sure it would be a resounding let them leave.
The winners of the past two campaigns Independence & Brexit have been won on lies, fear and hate(Brexit) IMO.
StWilson85
Member
I'm really sure that Greece feels equal to Germany!
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
What do you think about the fact that Scotland voted against leaving the European Union, then respectfully asked the government to take into consideration the Scottish people's democratic decision in its pursuit of a European Exit, only to be ignored and forced into a full on hard brexit? Never mind the fact that the IndyRef from a few years ago was littered with Westminster saying Scotland needed to stay to prevent it losing its EU member status?
The Tories are bullies, and if Scottish people can democratically prevent these people from further ruining their lives, they have every right to do so.
That...doesn't make sense.
I get that Scotland is pissed off about Brexit. I live in London, where the feeling is probably even more angry given the destruction it's going to cause here. But the fact that Scotland doesn't get to stop it isn't unfair - the only federal state I can find in the world where you could would be Belgium. Foreign policy matters are decided at the national level even in the most federalised of countries. The governor of Texas can't veto a presidential foreign policy decision, however much Texas doesn't want it.
And RE the pledge, significant more powers have been passed to Scotland. Which ones are outstanding exactly? Bearing in mind that Scotland has had tax raising powers for some time now and yet doesn't want to use them.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Another big factor is that EU citizens were allowed to vote in the previous IndyRef.
So most of them obviously voted to stay so that Scotland remained a member of the EU.
That's not how they are going to vote this time around. All EU citizens will vote for Scotland to leave the UK. As they should.
So most of them obviously voted to stay so that Scotland remained a member of the EU.
That's not how they are going to vote this time around. All EU citizens will vote for Scotland to leave the UK. As they should.
nelsonroyale
Member
Go for it. I am definitely going to be more proactive than I was the first time, and I was out and about the first referendum.
I think for people in Scotland with progressive aspirations, it is rather evident it needs to happen. Mainstream Scottish politics have a different direction of travel at the moment. The Tories would like to privatise most if not all of public services, have a hawkish foreign policy, and even civic society in England seems to be more hostile at the moment to the EU and immigration than in Scotland. These are good enough rationals for independence.
Moreover, I think what some people are expressing on here is a lack of polical and economic imagination, couched in the rhetoric of 'pragmatism'. There are a few points to be made:
(1) Firstly, in the bigger picture, the current trajectory that the UK is travelling is pretty fucked. It is far from meeting its carbon commitments, and with the tories in it isn't likely to happen at all. The Conservatives put a failing economic ideology far above the the scienfitic imperative. Scotland is a bit better on this account. Sure, carbon is aggregated and no one country will be enough to make a difference, but the difference in commitment on this is very significant divergence.
(2) Economic health isn't just predilicated on overal stock and flow, it is also contingent on the distribution of resources. Now I am not saying that the SNP aren't neoliberal (they definitely are), but under independence we could spend considerably less on defence, increase corporation tax, etc. Not saying this will happen, just saying there are mechanisms which can either improve or reduce the economic health of the majority of people. There are no foregone scenarios, just narratives and predictions (which are rarely neutral).
(3) There are presently political reasons why Scottish independence makes sense for progressive minded people. It breaks the hold and influence of the Tories on Scottish politics, so we can shift the narrative to more progressive measures, particularly related to tax and voting systems.
If a second referendum was rejected, I don't think it would fizzle down so peacefully to be honest. Given the times and which we live and the changes we need to make to our society (which should supercede the political 'game'), I don't think the status quo in terms of UK politics is feasible or desirable. I also think the kind of rupture independence would bring would also have profound affects on English politics. It absolutely needs a kick up the arse.
I think for people in Scotland with progressive aspirations, it is rather evident it needs to happen. Mainstream Scottish politics have a different direction of travel at the moment. The Tories would like to privatise most if not all of public services, have a hawkish foreign policy, and even civic society in England seems to be more hostile at the moment to the EU and immigration than in Scotland. These are good enough rationals for independence.
Moreover, I think what some people are expressing on here is a lack of polical and economic imagination, couched in the rhetoric of 'pragmatism'. There are a few points to be made:
(1) Firstly, in the bigger picture, the current trajectory that the UK is travelling is pretty fucked. It is far from meeting its carbon commitments, and with the tories in it isn't likely to happen at all. The Conservatives put a failing economic ideology far above the the scienfitic imperative. Scotland is a bit better on this account. Sure, carbon is aggregated and no one country will be enough to make a difference, but the difference in commitment on this is very significant divergence.
(2) Economic health isn't just predilicated on overal stock and flow, it is also contingent on the distribution of resources. Now I am not saying that the SNP aren't neoliberal (they definitely are), but under independence we could spend considerably less on defence, increase corporation tax, etc. Not saying this will happen, just saying there are mechanisms which can either improve or reduce the economic health of the majority of people. There are no foregone scenarios, just narratives and predictions (which are rarely neutral).
(3) There are presently political reasons why Scottish independence makes sense for progressive minded people. It breaks the hold and influence of the Tories on Scottish politics, so we can shift the narrative to more progressive measures, particularly related to tax and voting systems.
If a second referendum was rejected, I don't think it would fizzle down so peacefully to be honest. Given the times and which we live and the changes we need to make to our society (which should supercede the political 'game'), I don't think the status quo in terms of UK politics is feasible or desirable. I also think the kind of rupture independence would bring would also have profound affects on English politics. It absolutely needs a kick up the arse.
In terms of EU law making it is. That it got itself into dire financial trouble is largely its own fault. Greece can actually veto a lot of things, what it can't do is make the rest of the Eurozone continue to flood money into it's black hole.
But hey apparently when you lie on the application form it's now the responsibility of the people you lied to to make things right.
The US senate gives disparately sized regions equal say in one portion of the bicameral system. As does the Australian senate. It's the US senate which is responsible for treaty ratification so while Texas can't veto the US president on foreign policy it does has the same say on substantive foreign policy as say Wyoming despite having 54 times the population.
That's not the same at all. We don't even have a senate, and Scotland gets representation in the house. Also, the senators from Texas can't stop a foreign policy decision either?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't think Nicola really wants a second referendum right now. She just wants to make Theresa say 'No'.
CyclopsRock
Member
Well they're subsidised by the rest of the UK to the tune of about £9bn a year, so there would need to be cuts beyond what's already occuring just to maintain the current deficit of the UK government. But that's not really the big thing. The big thing is that the UK is harming itself economically because it's leaving a free-trade area with its largest export market, and this is generally agreed to be a bad thing for the UK. If Scotland were to leave the UK - even if it managed to immediately join the EU - it would be doing exactly the same thing except to an even greater degree, since over 65% of its "exports" currently end up in rUK.
This doesn't all add up to not being "self sufficient" but I guess it depends on how you define that. I mean, what's clear to me is that Scotland leaving the UK would result in a dramatic reduction in economic activity in Scotland, both in terms of central spending and the cost of doing business outside of Scotland.
As things stand at the moment? Most definitely, but hypothetically it could work well for all countries involved if things were to change (not that they will, unfortunately).
It's the US senate which is responsible for treaty ratification so while Texas can't veto the US president on foreign policy it does has the same say on substantive foreign policy as say Wyoming despite having 54 times the population.
The point is that most federal bicameral systems have a second chamber which equalises population disparities within the component parts of the federal structure. Otherwise you have the UK system where one nation in the UK controls all even if the other three are against it.
As an Englishmen, it kind of depresses me to have to agree with the sentiment here for the benefit of my Scottish friends.
A Senator from Texas can filibuster a treaty.
EarsOfASnake
Member
I don't understand how anyone can get up in arms about Scotland leaving on the basis of EU membership and Cameron lying to them previously. They would be in the exact same situation had they left during the last referendum, out of the EU and fucked.
Fair points.
Isn't there some kind of option for Scotland to stay within the EU and be a part of a single Great Britain market? Wouldn't that create a very decent loophole for the UK to get access to the European free market and still 'be in control', allow Scotland the same advantages plus the benefits of free trade with the rest of Great Britain?
Wasn't that basically the campaign slogan for Brexit? Why is that situation any different?
Don't the people of Scotland deserve to chose their own union?
I have no issue with Scotland choosing to be independent. I think it would be a mistake, even in these awful Brexit times, but that's their right. I just object to this weird notion that Scotland isn't already free, or doesn't get respect. It's like when people post pictures of that fucking awful Mel Gibson movie.
It's as dumb as the Brexit folk claiming the UK isn't free in Europe. Being part of a union you choose to be in for the benefits it gives you, that you can leave if you want to, is not slavery or occupation! Hell, by every definition any state in America is not free given they can't leave the USA if they want to.
nelsonroyale
Member
Well it is hardly just what 'Nicola wants' is it? The UK is in political disarray, and while the May's Tories do have a surprising amount of support considering their shambolic performance pre and post EU Referendum, there is always opportunity in chaose. Sure it is soon after the last one, but it is always going to be a gamble, and internally the situation in the UK is comparatively worse than it was prior to the first vote, particularly as perceived by those on the centre and left of politics.
Maledict: A philosophical discussion doesn't seem very fruitful here. An independent government would have more freedom to enact policy than they do now. That is the bottom line. If the direction taken by the Tories countermands opposite tendancies expressed by a majority within Scotland, then that is fine grounds for considering independence. Union is an arrangement that is expendable given certain conditions...A lack of serious political alligment is one, especially when in this case Scotland has a more a direction of travel which is at least more logical given global sustainability challenges.
I think the main issue for a lot of Scots is that the political divide north and south of the border has become so vast it would just make much more sense to divide things to the point where Scotland could at least Veto things like Brexit or Trident. That'll never happen, so instead we're stuck with a bunch of stuff we didn't vote for and have no say in preventing.
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