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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

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Member
But also theoretically, due to Liz's interference and omniscience among the time waves, she is equally capable of sorting out all of these other Comstocks and stopping their 'decision' as well, or any other circumstance which would foresee someone like Comstock rising up. (This is all contingent on Comstock behaving in an extremely similar way to the events in Infinite though, which limits the potential for the those specific universes in which he is able to fulfill his dream through Liz's abilities)

But doesn't travel between the multiverses cause rapid aging? There's no way that Elizabeth could sort out all other possible Comstocks before her inevitable death.

Moreover though how could she destroy the Comstock that exists in her own personal timeline, without erasing herself from existence? Even assuming that she is immune to the aging effects of interdimensional travel, that Comstock that created her would have to continue to exist.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
But doesn't travel between the multiverses cause rapid aging? There's no way that Elizabeth could sort out all other possible Comstocks before her inevitable death.

One possible theory is that if Liz can really see "all of the doors", or all probabilities through tears as mentioned by the female Lutece, then somewhere among infinite possible solutions, there is some answer that will absolutely stop all probability of something ever happening that can be obtained instantly.

Also, aging/cancer only appears to happen due to exposure of radiation from the tear machine. If Liz can produce them on her own, it is possible that she's not equally affected.

Moreover though how could she destroy the Comstock that exists in her own personal timeline, without erasing herself from existence? Even assuming that she is immune to the aging effects of interdimensional travel, that Comstock that created her would have to continue to exist.

She destroys all Comstocks at once, including the one that directly created her. As do all of the other Elizabeths created, as seen in the ending where another Booker and Liz are also making their way through the series of lighthouses.

This then creates the paradox of Comstock never existing, and thus, the universe 'rights' itself to only leave Bookers who could never become Comstock.

Like you and I both stated earlier, Ken is purposely limiting the nature of the multiverse around Booker's story at a specific moment in time to create his narrative to try and circumvent the truly 'infinite' nature of the multiverse. Booker's journey is still linear, because it has an end.
 

DatDude

Banned
If what is claimed in the article really was the case then this would lead to a clear contradiction with the backstory for Bioshock I (in particular the as told in the book that was released). In the book it is explained that Andrew Ryan comes from a Russian background and only emigrates to the US as a child after the Russian revolution. He chose the name Andrew Ryan as a translation of his original Russian name.

Perhaps Andrew Ryan is related to Booker in some sense, but they couldn't be the same person - even if you allowed for time travel. So either that whole Ryan background has been discarded, they forgot about the bathysphere restriction, or there must be some other solution.

it's an identical 1:1 ratio.

it's more symbolically, associated with the, "there will always be a man, a city a lighthouse."

In this case:

Rapture lighthouse=Columbia's lighthouse

Big Daddy=Song Bird

Elizabeth=Little Sister

Booker=Jack

Comstock=Ryan

Atlas=Daisy Fitzroy

it's all symbolic in nature.
 
Just finished the game, I'll probably post some more thorough thoughts later.

One thing, though, is that I noticed that everyone is referring to the Luteces as "twins". Aren't they the same person from two different universes, but one with no "Y" chromosome?
 

DarkKyo

Member
One thing I want to know about the Luteces... do they have powers similar to Elizabeth? They seem to warp around like crazy and they don't appear sick or aging like Comstock. How are they doing this stuff if they aren't using their machine? I must have missed the explanation.
 
Just finished the game, I'll probably post some more thorough thoughts later.

One thing, though, is that I noticed that everyone is referring to the Luteces as "twins". Aren't they the same person from two different universes, but one with no "Y" chromosome?
It's just easier to refer to them for the sake of clarity that way. Not to mention they both address each other as brother and sister in-game.
 

Neiteio

Member
Anyone F12 the moment where Songbird drowns outside of Rapture? Holy fuck I did not anticipate that is how the beast would meet its demise. Was too awestruck to screen-cap the moment, so if someone else did it, please share, or else I'll have to boot up Chapter Select just for that bit, lol.
 
hCE7AA55C
He forgot the funny.
 

DatDude

Banned
I (obviously) didn't read the whole thread, but at the beginning of it people were saying it "didn't make sense" that Booker "suddenly became a white supremacist" after being baptised. I feel that people who think Booker "became" a white supremacist are thinking about it in the wrong way.

Booker was a white supremacist. Throughout the game, we learn of Booker's horrible actions during Wounded Knee. It's obvious that he was not a good person. This is why he went to get baptised -- to be absolved of his actions.

In one universe, he accepts the baptism and considers himself "absolved." Essentially, he feels that he's forgiven and doesn't have to think about his actions anymore. This leads him to a life of religious devotion and to the events that went on to create Columbia.

In another universe, Booker rejects the baptism because he feels that it won't change him or his actions; it would be a pointless gesture. Instead, he turns it down and is forced to live with the guilt of what he's done and reflect on his actions, leading to a downward spiral where he becomes in serious debt and sells his daughter.

I think the point Irrational was trying to make with this is that when Booker "absolved" himself of his actions whole cloth via becoming "born again," he never had to look back at his actions and learn from them.

Yet, when was faced with his actions in the past and forced to confront them, he came out of it a better person.

Just my two cents on that aspect of the plot.

Excellent post. Yeah, if Booker is racist all along, it explains why he took such delight murdering Native Americans at Wounded Knee. And it was only when he lived with the weight of his actions, not using religion as an easy out, did he grow to see racism for how ugly it is. Conversely, in the universe where Booker became Comstock, his religion served to justify his discrimination against others, and his cruelty took on a whole new level.

Excellent comments.

Really ties the loose end well as to why our Booker seemed so against the racial injustice that took place in Columbia
 

Neiteio

Member
Man, you guys criticizing the comic must be a ton of fun to hang out with at parties! I can picture the crossed arms and hard-bitten facial expressions when you see a puppy chasing its tail and you proceed to say, "3/10, not cute enough." You guys practically radiate joy.

Anyways, it's not Songbird drowning outside Rapture, but I did screencap the E3 2011 moment as it appeared in the final game. Since I'd seen it before, I had the presence of mind to hit F12, lol. Wish I'd done the same for the Rapture scene but it was too amazing.

Dat Liz cuddling Songbird. <3
 

Gorillaz

Member
Guize....GUIZE

I'm still on a buzz after that ending. I finished it Thursday but I still feel like I'm on a high from it.

I'm not the type to get hooked to vidya game stories but man.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
One thing I want to know about the Luteces... do they have powers similar to Elizabeth? They seem to warp around like crazy and they don't appear sick or aging like Comstock. How are they doing this stuff if they aren't using their machine? I must have missed the explanation.

The answer is in 2-3 voxophones around the Lutece lab and another location I can't remember off hand.

Comstock used Fink to kill them by smashing their time machine while they were using it. But instead of dying, their atoms/state of being were scattered/absorbed into the multiverse.

How much actual 'power' they have compared to Liz is apparently either limited or they just want to use Booker, since they can see that him helping Liz reach her Time Lord status is the 'best' way for the universes to reset.

They're essentially trapped in the universal consciousness by the time the male Lutece issues his ultimatum to female Lutece to fix things or he's leaving her. Even though she's fatalistic about it, since helping Liz will also prevent her meeting her brother, female Lutece acquiesces, because he is basically herself and she is the only other person able to really understand 'their' situation.
 

Neiteio

Member
Guize....GUIZE

I'm still on a buzz after that ending. I finished it Thursday but I still feel like I'm on a high from it.

I'm not the type to get hooked to vidya game stories but man.
You play 999? Makes Infinite look like child's play. I nearly skipped it because I didn't want to dust off the DS and I usually don't play those kinds of games, but damn... Simply amazing story.
 
It just occurred to me that when you take the baptism in the beginning of the game, the guy drowns you. You wind up in the same room that shows up every time you respawn.

This totally blew my mind when I beat the game, because I've been thinking about it the whole time.
 

MormaPope

Banned

What stories do you enjoy or prefer in any medium?

what were you trying to tell me with that video?

That Infinite's storytelling is on the same level or comparable to Lucas storytelling, another snooty and extremely shoddy comparison once again.

If you think Infinite shares anything with Star Wars prequels you're really trying to shit talk something poorly.
 

DarkKyo

Member
The answer is in 2-3 voxophones around the Lutece lab and another location I can't remember off hand.

Comstock used Fink to kill them by smashing their time machine while they were using it. But instead of dying, their atoms/state of being were scattered/absorbed into the multiverse.

How much actual 'power' they have compared to Liz is apparently either limited or they just want to use Booker, since they can see that him helping Liz reach her Time Lord status is the 'best' way for the universes to reset.

They're essentially trapped in the universal consciousness by the time the male Lutece issues his ultimatum to female Lutece to fix things or he's leaving her. Even though she's fatalistic about it, since helping Liz will also prevent her meeting her brother, female Lutece acquiesces, because he is basically herself and she is the only other person able to really understand 'their' situation.

That's very helpful, thank you. I'm definitely going to have to look for those in my next playthrough. So if Elizabeth destroys all Columbia's, does that mean the Luteces lose their powers as they only gained them from the machine in Columbia? Or would they be immune to that, having already been sort of unchained from their original universe?
 
Booker dies during the Baptism? Theres a guy who says the Priest has to fill their lungs with water so they can appreciate the air. So I think he was just dumped out there as part of the initiation into Columbia.
 

DatDude

Banned
That Infinite's storytelling is on the same level or comparable to Lucas storytelling, another snooty and extremely shoddy comparison once again.

If you think Infinite shares anything with Star Wars prequels you're really trying to shit talk something poorly.

I don't understand why nbthedude likes to hate on this narrative so much.

I get not liking the presented concepts, that's personal tastes. But to say it was shitty storytelling, I mean what the fuck..where's his justification behind this? What's his thought prcoess? I just feel he just posts a bunch of random comments about how it's so bad, but never really fully discusses them..as if he himself doesn't really know what he hates.

Sure, video games narratives aren't perfect. Not even Infinite's.

But it's a great step in the right direction for this medium, and has given this forum alot to discuss and be excited for. That, surely we can agree on.
 

Gorillaz

Member
You play 999? Makes Infinite look like child's play. I nearly skipped it because I didn't want to dust off the DS and I usually don't play those kinds of games, but damn... Simply amazing story.

Not yet, but I heard a lot about it. Don't have a DS tho :/
 

DTKT

Member
Booker dies during the Baptism? Theres a guy who says the Priest has to fill their lungs with water so they can appreciate the air. So I think he was just dumped out there as part of the initiation into Columbia.

To be honest, pretty much all the theories are speculating about several key points in the story. We will probably never get a straight answer.
 
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey… stuff

Uh...right.

Anyway, I just read Wikipedia and understand it now. Jesus where does Levine get this shit lol.
 

Gorillaz

Member
Uh...right.

Anyway, I just read Wikipedia and understand it now. Jesus where does Levine get this shit lol.

I still don't think that was his first intentions on the game, since I know it went through a lot of changes during development. It feels like he made the best of a bad situation and, it turned out to still be impressive
 
You play 999? Makes Infinite look like child's play. I nearly skipped it because I didn't want to dust off the DS and I usually don't play those kinds of games, but damn... Simply amazing story.
I didnt like 999's story compared to Infinite... In fact I was annoyed by it. The writing (or probably translation) was pretty bad.
 

nbthedude

Member
Uh...right.

Anyway, I just read Wikipedia and understand it now. Jesus where does Levine get this shit lol.

I don't think that is entirely fair. Everything He has written before was fairly focused and well developed (System Shock, Bioshock, Freedom Force, SWAT). This is the first time the reigns truly got away from him and the cart went off the narrative cliff..
 
well.. it looks like... from the tv show fringe.
unless fringe got it from somewhere else, and that is where ken is getting it from.

Fringe, Sliders, Lost, Doctor Who, Journeyman and Stargate...

are some of my faves shows. I found bits of all of them in Bioshock Infinite.

However, I found bits of all those shows in the other shows, so I really dont mind when similarities show up.
 
I don't think that is entirely fair. Everything He has written before was fairly focused and well developed (System Shock, Bioshock, Freedom Force, SWAT). This is the first time the reigns truly got away from him and the cart went off the narrative cliff..

Sorry, I think you misunderstood, by shit I meant "good". :p
 
It's awesome that you see Songbird lying at the bottom of the ocean in the intro to the original Bioshock. What foresight by the developers...






























...
that's a lie
 

MormaPope

Banned
I don't think that is entirely fair. Everything He has written before was fairly focused and well developed (System Shock, Bioshock, Freedom Force, SWAT). This is the first time the reigns truly got away from him and the cart went off the narrative cliff..

You still haven't answered my question about which stories you think were well done or good in any and all mediums.
 

g23

European pre-madonna
Any ideas for the next Bioshock universe/game? In continuation of the concept of "one man, one city."

How about a city in space/moon set during the twilight of the cold war?

Or a city deep inside the Earth's core during the age of discovery?

So many possibilities! I love the universe that irrational has created, such an intriguing concept.
 

Neiteio

Member
Guillermo del Toro, wherever you are, you would flipping love this game and become obsessed with turning it into a movie.

Also, regarding future BioShock games, I think it's time to retire the brand after this. They've touched on the greatest mystery -- the nature of all existence -- and in a profoundly intimate way.

Dabble in it any longer and they risk losing the magic. Best to create something new altogether.
 
Any ideas for the next Bioshock universe/game? In continuation of the concept of "one man, one city."

How about a city in space/moon set during the twilight of the cold war?

Or a city deep inside the Earth's core during the age of discovery?

So many possibilities! I love the universe that irrational has created, such an intriguing concept.

Id like "When" not "Where" tbh

A future civilization moved to the past, or a present civilization moved into the future.

A whole "City out of Time" theme with typical Bioshock overtones would be great!
 

NotUS

Member
Hmm, interesting ending, not what I expected. Kind of felt a bit of a waste to be honest, makes it open to sequels, and I guess we know how every Bioshock game will start now.

Rather than having something so convoluted, they could have gone with Columbia being destroyed, falling from the sky, sinking to the bottom of the sea, becoming Rapture I guess.
 

yami4ct

Member
Any ideas for the next Bioshock universe/game? In continuation of the concept of "one man, one city."

How about a city in space/moon set during the twilight of the cold war?

Or a city deep inside the Earth's core during the age of discovery?

So many possibilities! I love the universe that irrational has created, such an intriguing concept.

I like that they haven't really created a "universe". With the whole Infinite concept, they aren't really stuck with any particular continuity or rules. They can do whatever they want, yet keep an established IP. It's quite clever.

Honestly, as long as they keep making stuff as thematically interesting as Bioshock and Infinite, I don't really care what specific setting they choose. Whatever works best for the story they want to tell. In the end, that's the most important piece.
 

Neiteio

Member
were there any audiologs explaining how he was made?
Jeremiah Fink had an audio log outside his office (before Daisy kills him) that explained Songbird was a combination of man and machine, at the same time the lesser of each, and the greater. Very cryptically put. I don't recall the exact wording, but Fink indicated the technology was deduced from observing tears. So who knows? Maybe the Songbird tech was derived from Big Daddies in Rapture, or something else altogether (System Shock 3, perhaps!).
 
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