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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens

golem

Member
While that looks nice, that's your reason for no single player campaign right there. If you're making a Wing Commander reboot and it somehow morphs into Dune Wars the FPS, you're in trouble.
There were always going to be FPS sections in SQ42. It was never simply a Wing Commander reboot
 
While that looks nice, that's your reason for no single player campaign right there. If you're making a Wing Commander reboot and it somehow morphs into Dune Wars the FPS, you're in trouble.

Star Citizen and Squadron 42 are two different entries and have separate teams working on them with a bit off overlap. Seeing a tech demo for Star Citizen doesn't equate to effort taken away from Squadron 42.

I mean the OP was kind enough to provide this information in a huge post filled with pictures and links in the very first post.
And.....

There were always going to be FPS sections in SQ42. It was never simply a Wing Commander reboot

^ what he says.
 

XPE

Member
The v2 planet stuff impresses even more with a 2nd viewing and i love that you can see the space stations from the ground. I think a better paced demo would have done it more justice first time around also having to wait till the early hours of the morning to see it didn't help it ethier.
 
I assume a lot of the FPS gameplay comes from them making some module based moon and space station bases. Sort of like when you go into a dungeon or cave in Skyrim or Oblivion many of them are variations of one another, so they can build many of them and fill them up with bad guys?

Is there any procedual tech going into the base assault or mission structures?





I think that if you look at it in the context of something like Warframe or Diablo, it could be a good fit, and it can certainly be something to create a lot of different content from the same placeholder or basic part.

It could hopefully mean that once the procedural planet tech comes into its own, the actual element of adding enemy encounters and missions where a randomized tileset of a underground base with a random objective like "destroy the com link" or "hack the central computer" or whatever is easily carried out.


And really, I think- it goes back into that, that would be perfectly awesome as a solution if they can pair the experience with great fluid gunplay and a A.I that is really solid. A.I is such a big problem in not just online games, but really in games in general. I wonder how they will try and mir the experiences as a gradual one that can keep the core mission structure fresh.
Obviously it goes beyond the scope of any game to hand craft every single nook and cranny. And as we've seen with other procedural games, procedural is great tech but it needs to be handholded by a level of touch by deliberate design so it doesnt feel like a waste of time or purposeless indulging escapade of mediocrity and lack of proper conflict and razorsharp design.
 
I assume a lot of the FPS gameplay comes from them making some module based moon and space station bases. Sort of like when you go into a dungeon or cave in Skyrim or Oblivion many of them are variations of one another, so they can build many of them and fill them up with bad guys?

Is there any procedual tech going into the base assault or mission structures?





I think that if you look at it in the context of something like Warframe or Diablo, it could be a good fit, and it can certainly be something to create a lot of different content from the same placeholder or basic part.

It could hopefully mean that once the procedural planet tech comes into its own, the actual element of adding enemy encounters and missions where a randomized tileset of a underground base with a random objective like "destroy the com link" or "hack the central computer" or whatever is easily carried out.


And really, I think- it goes back into that, that would be perfectly awesome as a solution if they can pair the experience with great fluid gunplay and a A.I that is really solid. A.I is such a big problem in not just online games, but really in games in general. I wonder how they will try and mir the experiences as a gradual one that can keep the core mission structure fresh.
Obviously it goes beyond the scope of any game to hand craft every single nook and cranny. And as we've seen with other procedural games, procedural is great tech but it needs to be handholded by a level of touch by deliberate design so it doesnt feel like a waste of time or purposeless indulging escapade of mediocrity and lack of proper conflict and razorsharp design.

I'm not sure if this answers all your questions but here are some things I've heard from recent interviews.

Here's what Sean Tracy had to say about AI and mission structure in a recent interview:

“We have a system that we call subsumption. It's for AI and it'll be used for missions as well as some economy stuff. It's kind of a visual scripting system, so you've got notes within it, AI has certain activities or behaviors that we can form. They can be interrupted out of them, they can go into different behaviors, we can trigger off cinematic stuff, we can do pretty much everything that the flowgraph would have done, but within a little bit more systemic of a system, rather than a bespoke 'this entity does this function does this function.' It's more of a behavior to the AI. This same idea is going to be applied to the mission system, where it's a systemic system where you're setting up – I'm not a designer, so I hope I don't misrepresent their particular system – but when they're setting up missions, it's more of small portions of it that are kind of like little activities. Within that, we'll create the bigger missions. It's actually the same idea with the AI, and it's [done within the same toolset]

“This is a direction from all the tech directors in the company: 'Get it 90% of the way there with systems, then let the artist polish that.' You want to be able to bring as much content online as laissez-faire as possible, and then let designers go in and make it a little more fun. I think it was the same mentality at Crytek, so I really hope that it lends itself to not only tons of content, but content that doesn't feel generic – it doesn't feel copy-pasted. It feels very living and immersive.”

They do have procedural tech in regards to modular buildings from a recent AtV they showed.

"So for this first iteration we are just going to have small camps and research facilities that are placed on planets for humans to live and with this system that I’ve designed so far is we’re gonna build a location using components. We start picking an exterior, after you pick an exterior, you go inside and you gonna be able to switch between different interiors depending on what you want the location to be like. After deciding what we want the location to be – or the building – we can also add some exterior assets to it to make it more distinct and recognizable from far away. This is all used to how the gameplay and everything that this is built around so they- we can populate planets faster, inhabit planets faster. As that is just what we’re aiming for now, this aswell can be scaled up to larger buildings with more slots – this is also a building with just one slot and here we have one that has three room slots where we should be able to switch all the rooms between as we want to. For 3.0 however this is more what it is going to look like here, where it is these small camps with just one or two of these smaller buildings and a corridor connecting them so you don’t have to go through an airlock every time you walk between buildings and here we have another one that’s just three slots. As you saw in the presentation, you get an understanding for how we can faster build our locations that we’re going to place on planets – we still have to place this manually however this system is going to make it faster so that we can fill up the world, make it feel more alive and then more gameplay for you guys."

Finally Chris Roberts and Erin Roberts recently gave interviews about making worlds more content rich where exploring the world is a lot more fun. Chris talked about artists going in and placing things like mineshafts and ruins, Erin pointed to the broken javelin and sandstorms, and the hope is everytime you go visit the planet you see or experience something new and different.


For anyone interested, new interviews with Sean Tracy, Chris Roberts and Erin Roberts;

Chris Roberts
Sean Tracy
Erin Roberts
 
The v2 planet stuff impresses even more with a 2nd viewing and i love that you can see the space stations from the ground. I think a better paced demo would have done it more justice first time around also having to wait till the early hours of the morning to see it didn't help it ethier.

I'm waiting to see how it handles lush environments before getting too excited about the planet system. The sand and rocks look awesome here, but the low-fly through the "forest" was some really bad procedural generation work. I have no idea why they went below the canopy if it only served to highlight they don't know how forests work. Also, a complete lack of any flowing water. Just like No Man's Sky. Ponds, lakes, and oceans, are easy enough, but rivers, streams and waterfalls are an essential part of living environments. Especially when they've clearly put so much work into erosion systems that rivers would have caused...

I'm glad it's all coming together but they still have a long way to go. My biggest takeaways from the video were

1) Planets need running water, and forests need to be vastly improved (sub canopy, shrubs, ground layer)
2) The Dragonfly lacks a "punch" to how it sounds and feels. Seems more like a futuristic mobility scooter for the elderly at the moment.
 
I'm waiting to see how it handles lush environments before getting too excited about the planet system. The sand and rocks look awesome here, but the low-fly through the "forest" was some really bad procedural generation work. I have no idea why they went below the canopy if it only served to highlight they don't know how forests work. Also, a complete lack of any flowing water. Just like No Man's Sky. Ponds, lakes, and oceans, are easy enough, but rivers, streams and waterfalls are an essential part of living environments. Especially when they've clearly put so much work into erosion systems that rivers would have caused...

I'm glad it's all coming together but they still have a long way to go. My biggest takeaways from the video were

1) Planets need running water, and forests need to be vastly improved (sub canopy, shrubs, ground layer)
2) The Dragonfly lacks a "punch" to how it sounds and feels. Seems more like a futuristic mobility scooter for the elderly at the moment.

What was wrong with the part with the trees? I don't think it was a "forest", it was more of a Savannah.
 

mnannola

Member
I'm waiting to see how it handles lush environments before getting too excited about the planet system. The sand and rocks look awesome here, but the low-fly through the "forest" was some really bad procedural generation work. I have no idea why they went below the canopy if it only served to highlight they don't know how forests work. Also, a complete lack of any flowing water. Just like No Man's Sky. Ponds, lakes, and oceans, are easy enough, but rivers, streams and waterfalls are an essential part of living environments. Especially when they've clearly put so much work into erosion systems that rivers would have caused...

I'm glad it's all coming together but they still have a long way to go. My biggest takeaways from the video were

1) Planets need running water, and forests need to be vastly improved (sub canopy, shrubs, ground layer)
2) The Dragonfly lacks a "punch" to how it sounds and feels. Seems more like a futuristic mobility scooter for the elderly at the moment.

Do you have examples of games that do forests correctly in your eyes?
 

tuxfool

Banned
forests need to be vastly improved (sub canopy, shrubs, ground layer).

If you saw the demo afterwards you would see that the foliage "brush" they use actually does that procedurally.
https://youtu.be/XuDj5v81Nd0?t=7401

It should be noted that the assets were only a few weeks worth of work by a small team of environment designers. The tools used are exactly the same as those used to "paint" something like crysis, so it is only a question of creating foliage appropriate to the biome.
 
What was wrong with the part with the trees? I don't think it was a "forest", it was more of a Savannah.

Yep, it was more of a wooded savannah area, but it still made the common mistake of only having grasses and mature trees. No shrubs, no sub canopy, and only one tree model at one height copy/pasted a few thousand times.

I'm loving their decision to focus really intensely on individual planets though, rather than creating millions of planets. Gives me hope that they simply haven't gotten around to flora properly yet, or flowing water, hence choosing a desert location for the demo. I'm just not going to get excited for their shiny planet tech until I've seen it can handle more than rocks and sand well though. Not after the recent offering of space games have also promised wonders but fallen well short of expectations.

If you saw the demo afterwards you would see that the foliage "brush" they use actually does that procedurally.
https://youtu.be/XuDj5v81Nd0?t=7401

It should be noted that the assets were only a few weeks worth of work by a small team of environment designers. The tools used are exactly the same as those used to "paint" something like crysis, so it is only a question of creating foliage appropriate to the biome.

Oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing this =)

That's already so much better! Loads more tree models, varying heights, and they get denser and smaller at the edges (edge effect =D) - I'm an ecologist irl so I tend to geek out about flora in games. Fingers crossed they add shrubs and grasses to those "brushes" as well, but that's already a big improvement over the forested area they flew through at the start of the 30 minute video.

Do you have examples of games that do forests correctly in your eyes?

Best I've seen so far is The Witcher 3, but then those guys did obsess over flora details. There was even a blog post on Speedtree about it. Those guys understood edge effect, and the impact light has on the shape of a forest based on where it can reach. It's why woodland and forest tends to look incredibly dense from the outside (since you're only seeing the edge) but very open on the inside, since light can't easily reach the ground layer to encourage new growth. It's an effect very few games bother to implement, but looks amazing when they do. Skyrim is an example of a game that absolutely should focus on these effects of woodland and forest composition, but simply doesn't. Falkreath and the Rift don't feel forested as a result, but more like a smattering of random trees across a broad area, which is the same feeling that 30 minute video from Citizen Con gave me at the start. Certainly looks like that was just a procedural gen pass that hadn't been touched up by hand yet though. The video tuxfool linked above shows they're well on the way to working on this =)

2.10b.jpg
 

tuxfool

Banned
Skyrim is an example of a game that absolutely should focus on these effects of woodland and forest composition, but simply doesn't

It isn't so much that they don't, it is more of a question of can't. I was speaking to a modder and he said that the tools, even the latest iteration of GECK are an absolute pain to use with foliage. Placing trees etc is extremely limited and frustrating, so it is easy to see why the implementation in skyrim sucks.
 
It isn't so much that they don't, it is more of a question of can't. I was speaking to a modder and he said that the tools, even the latest iteration of GECK are an absolute pain to use with foliage. Placing trees etc is extremely limited and frustrating, so it is easy to see why the implementation in skyrim sucks.

Sadly, while I'm sure it's a pain, there are mods for Skyrim that create wonderful forests. If there was a limitation on Bethesda's end it was the target hardware, not the toolset, but then even Oblivion had semi decent forests so I'm not sure what would have changed - dynamic shadows perhaps?
 

tuxfool

Banned
Sadly, while I'm sure it's a pain, there are mods for Skyrim that create wonderful forests. If there was a limitation on Bethesda's end it was the target hardware, not the toolset, but then even Oblivion had semi decent forests so I'm not sure what would have changed - dynamic shadows perhaps?

When I say can't obviously I mean that bounded by time. Everything is possible given enough time, but good tools help make that more manageable in limited time.

Then again, I myself don't rate Bethesda's theme park designers too highly in the first place. This isn't limited to foliage, they just don't think too deeply about environmental design in general.
 

iHaunter

Member
While that looks nice, that's your reason for no single player campaign right there. If you're making a Wing Commander reboot and it somehow morphs into Dune Wars the FPS, you're in trouble.

Huh? Those two are inter-connected.

They needed to tech for SQ42, while it's not going to be the main focus, they want to do planet combat in SQ42. From what I heard from Erin Roberts, SQ42 is technically done, rest of the content is in place, just waiting for tech and polish.

The forest ? :x

I really liked FC Primals forest but this is probably too heavy for an entire planet http://i.imgur.com/1ODKO3C.jpg

I mean...they could easily do that if they wanted to. They showed the planet editor after the demo.
 

Zabojnik

Member
So is there any summary of what was shown? When will we get the next major alpha release?

Procedural planets 2.0 demo was the main thing shown. Links can be found on this and previous pages. The next major alpha release is 3.0, due ... sometime in the next six months, probably. Though some (most?) would consider the upcoming 2.6 release to be pretty major as well.

Roadmap: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=219710369&postcount=6439
 
I am also a big fan of the forests as shown off in Kingdomcome atm, which seem really wonderful.

I am pretty sure btw we did not see "forrests" in the PG Planet 2.0 demo. Given the terrain nearby and the sparseness... isn't that more like savannah-like terrain moving into desertified areas?
 
I am also a big fan of the forests as shown off in Kingdomcome atm, which seem really wonderful.

I am pretty sure btw we did not see "forrests" in the PG Planet 2.0 demo. Given the terrain nearby and the sparseness... isn't that more like savannah-like terrain moving into desertified areas?

Yeah, that's quite obviously what was shown. I don't understand why people are confused about this...
 

Zabojnik

Member
I am also a big fan of the forests as shown off in Kingdomcome atm, which seem really wonderful.

I am pretty sure btw we did not see "forrests" in the PG Planet 2.0 demo. Given the terrain nearby and the sparseness... isn't that more like savannah-like terrain moving into desertified areas?

Yeah, that's quite obviously what was shown. I don't understand why people are confused about this...

Well, it pretty obvious that the tech isn't quite there yet, otherwise I'm pretty sure they'd showcase a proper forrest / jungle. From what Erin said it's just a matter of time.
 
Yeah, that's quite obviously what was shown. I don't understand why people are confused about this...

Because even if that's what they were aiming for, it was still one tree model copy/pasted thousands of times, with no real height variance, no shrubs, and no sub canopy. I was expressing concern because that part of the demo was objectively bad from an environmental design perspective. Thankfully, other posters have highlighted some fantastic examples of how the flora will be generated in the future, and it seems pretty clear that the forest section in the 30 minute demo hasn't had any developer attention yet. It was just a procedurally generated first-pass to give a sense of scale to the worlds, that will (hopefully) be given proper attention in the future.
 
Because even if that's what they were aiming for, it was still one tree model copy/pasted thousands of times, with no real height variance, no shrubs, and no sub canopy. I was expressing concern because that part of the demo was objectively bad from an environmental design perspective. Thankfully, other posters have highlighted some fantastic examples of how the flora will be generated in the future, and it seems pretty clear that the forest section in the 30 minute demo hasn't had any developer attention yet. It was just a procedurally generated first-pass to give a sense of scale to the worlds, that will (hopefully) be given proper attention in the future.
I mean, I agree 100% with you that this is first pass probably regarding what we will eventually see. BUt what we will eventually see in this context is a savannah. Not a forrest. Hence the type of trees we saw. Hence the lack of canopy and the typical forrest structure (underbrush, mid tier, etc.)

savannah-8.jpg

vlcsnap-2016-10-12-19xel7t.png

vlcsnap-2016-10-12-194wxd5.png

TvyamNb-BivtNwpvn7Sct0VFDulyAfA9wBcU0gVHVnqC5ghqXWfDoVBzu-X1ZUsyb-f464Mrt5z8g1I
 
I mean, I agree 100% with you that this is first pass probably regarding what we will eventually see. BUt what we will eventually see in this context is a savannah. Not a forrest. Hence the type of trees we saw. Hence the lack of canopy and the typical forrest structure (underbrush, mid tier, etc.)

There's always underbrush. And I wasn't referencing those screens you shared of the obviously polished (and incredibly impressive) sparce tree section, but the parts in the opening few minutes of that video where the camera flies through a much more wooded section of the planet. It's just the same tree thousands of times with some grass underneath. From above it looks like a light forest, but then they swoop under the canopy and you can see there's no detailing at all.

You don't need to defend them - I'm not saying they can't do a good job. Other posters already showcased the awesome flora tools they're building. That opening section had me worried, not the polished section, but I'm pretty sure there's no need to worry now.
 
What irks me is that they didn't even have a proper beach where the water hit the surface of land. And the quantum jump from one planets atmosphere to another? Shouldn't that rip the ship apart? Oh and let us talk about he magical sandstorm that disappeared right after it hit the derelict javelin.

And again... they didn't show Squadron 42.......


I dunno guys... CiG is on some shaky ground right about now.
 

XPE

Member
What irks me is that they didn't even have a proper beach where the water hit the surface of land. And the quantum jump from one planets atmosphere to another? Shouldn't that rip the ship apart? Oh and let us talk about he magical sandstorm that disappeared right after it hit the derelict javelin.

And again... they didn't show Squadron 42.......


I dunno guys... CiG is on some shaky ground right about now.

Sound like you are about to request a refund =P


Speaking of water I seen some oceans someone done for a procedural planet project and it looked really good some here's hoping CIG can do the same thing.
 

Megalo

Member
What irks me is that they didn't even have a proper beach where the water hit the surface of land. And the quantum jump from one planets atmosphere to another? Shouldn't that rip the ship apart? Oh and let us talk about he magical sandstorm that disappeared right after it hit the derelict javelin..

No proper beach yet ? The project is doomed.

The quantum jump from atmosphere was there to make the presentation quicker, but you will have to be in outer space to jump.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Speaking of water I seen some oceans someone done for a procedural planet project and it looked really good some here's hoping CIG can do the same thing.

Somebody on reddit blurted out that the water is only a first pass, they're already working on something better. I don't know if it is bs or not.
 

RK9039

Member
Somebody on reddit blurted out that the water is only a first pass, they're already working on something better. I don't know if it is bs or not.

Someone was talking about having tides as well, I think they already have the wind affecting things too.
 

Zalusithix

Member
And the quantum jump from one planets atmosphere to another? Shouldn't that rip the ship apart?

Nah, you got it all wrong. It just rips apart everything else in the surrounding area. If he returned to the planet, that desert would be a sheet of glass from the resulting explosion. ;)
 
It really is amazing that those planets we saw at CitizenCon were made in just a few weeks by 5/6 artists who were just trying out what they can do with the new tools. Once these planets are really in the production pipleline I can't wait to see what they come up with, it's just out of this world what they can do with this game. The weather/cloud systems driven by the biomes themselves, the different modular building sets they can place and design, the subsumption AI system and the encounters and things like derelict ships and what not are really going to make for some great mission design and amazing emergent gameplay. I have a lot of fun with my friends just messing around in 2.5, can't wait to see what we end up doing in 3.0 - 4.0.

Also, no word on the endeavor :( . I'm really interested in that ship due to the modules and how it seems it's just a mobile base with a detachable ship you can do anything with.
 
It really is amazing that those planets we saw at CitizenCon were made in just a few weeks by 5/6 artists who were just trying out what they can do with the new tools. Once these planets are really in the production pipleline I can't wait to see what they come up with, it's just out of this world what they can do with this game. The weather/cloud systems driven by the biomes themselves, the different modular building sets they can place and design, the subsumption AI system and the encounters and things like derelict ships and what not are really going to make for some great mission design and amazing emergent gameplay. I have a lot of fun with my friends just messing around in 2.5, can't wait to see what we end up doing in 3.0 - 4.0.

Also, no word on the endeavor :( . I'm really interested in that ship due to the modules and how it seems it's just a mobile base with a detachable ship you can do anything with.
Yep i can't wait to see how they will handle photogrammtery (if they can get time to build a database and figure out a reasonable pipeline) for environments and biomes once it gets out of R&D and implementing their weather system in relation to volumetric /cloud substance technology (folks out there have made it their life's work to get this stuff right). Along with whatever solution they take for making water render more realistically on a planetary scale without looking titled and or like oil or honey.

(lots of ways to handle based on what the internet and detailed papers provide in relation to game engines).

-Case in point-

https://developer.unigine.com/en/devlog/20160317-unigine-2.2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrsRraVUuM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlM0LJ1u4xU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se3wQbWwfv0

Plus if it runs this well relative to it running real time inside the engine and dev tools themselves. Then i can't wait how it run when it gets optimized more and they introduce more LOD and object streaming techniques.
.....................

It's crazy that only 5 to 6 people were able to bang this out and they were just testing the early versions of their toolset. I can't imagine how easy this well get once this becomes routine. Which is another crazy thought.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Also, no word on the endeavor :( . I'm really interested in that ship due to the modules and how it seems it's just a mobile base with a detachable ship you can do anything with.

They did mention farming as a feature of patch 3.3 on the roadmap (with a shot of the biodome), and science+research on 4.0. They didn't mention the Endeavor though, which is weird. Maybe they're thinking of implementing the features separately and having us access them via menus or something before the ship itself is ready.
Slides: http://imgur.com/a/BhUxp
 

Zabojnik

Member
System specs of the Planets 2.0 demo machine (running at 1080p):
- Asus X99-A
- i7 5820k @ 3.3Ghz (stock)
- 1080 GTX
- 64gb DDR4
 
They did mention farming as a feature of patch 3.3 on the roadmap (with a shot of the biodome), and science+research on 4.0. They didn't mention the Endeavor though, which is weird. Maybe they're thinking of implementing the features separately and having us access them via menus or something before the ship itself is ready.
Slides: http://imgur.com/a/BhUxp

That's what confused me, both the farming and Science/Exploration professions were shown as features in 3.3 and 4.0, and Endeavor is a pretty important ship for both of those. I hope we get some kind of news about it eventually.
 
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