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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens

Burny

Member
Are you suggesting that the engineers and CIG in general spend more time talking about the technical underpinnings of the game than developing them?

Not the engineers, Roberts & Co.. Whatever these people have the engineers do, hasn't resulted in too many met Kickstarter promises, yet.

It's also not the talking about the "underpinnings" that's an issue (although the talk to delivering ration seems to be on a nearly unmatched low for Star Citizen), it's the constant overselling of everything they do as the next best shit. This doesn't come from engineers, who tend to be mostly honest about their work. This comes from the management.

Take procedural landings.

"Procedural landings" my ass. The term is manual. The initally shown and suggested landing (Gamescom 2014) was guided or "on rails", whereas having complete control from space to landing on a surface, no matter if the surface is procedurally generated or not, means it's manual. The landing itself has nothing procedural about it. There is no fixed, but random looking seed going into a landing algorith, which then generates the landing based on that seed and further parameters to look vastly different each time. But Roberts needs to give off the impression they're doing something special. And such, the procedural landing was invented.


As far as I saw in the video, I am not sure if those are traditional premade meshes that are instanced and then stitched together. The mountains looked very much so non-uniform and not-tiled.

The recent editor video they showed looked very much like a "brush" like tool to me, that places patterns and stitches them together. For patterns seem to be there or at the very least have been:

c3z1Dc3.jpg


Seems like an approach that isn't quite as procedural as other approaches and may potentially be much less computationally intensive, depending on how the stitching and reusing of pattern works, while delivering nice looking results. Whenever "Alpha 3.0" or whatever comes around, we'll be able to see for ourselves. Everything shown until then, I would put under tech demo.
 

SnowTeeth

Banned
What do you mean you wouldn't know? Right this wrong asap. Add artichokes to them crackers with cheese and pepperoni and you shall experience a true tastegasm.

00407624.jpg

RgscqTt.jpg





Not the engineers, Roberts & Co.. Whatever these people have the engineers do, hasn't resulted in too many met Kickstarter promises, yet.

It's also not the talking about the "underpinnings" that's an issue (although the talk to delivering ration seems to be on a nearly unmatched low for Star Citizen), it's the constant overselling of everything they do as the next best shit. This doesn't come from engineers, who tend to be mostly honest about their work. This comes from the management.

Take procedural landings.

"Procedural landings" my ass. The term is manual. The initally shown and suggested landing (Gamescom 2014) was guided or "on rails", whereas having complete control from space to landing on a surface, no matter if the surface is procedurally generated or not, means it's manual. The landing itself has nothing procedural about it. There is no fixed, but random looking seed going into a landing algorith, which then generates the landing based on that seed and further parameters to look vastly different each time. But Roberts needs to give off the impression they're doing something special. And such, the procedural landing was invented.

"These people" are excited and confident that their engineers will pull it all off. More often than not what you describe as them "overselling" things is them talking to their existing fanbase and having fun while doing so. You seem very bitter.
 
RgscqTt.jpg







"These people" are excited and confident that their engineers will pull it all off. More often than not what you describe as them "overselling" things is them talking to their existing fanbase and having fun while doing so. You seem very bitter.
Right?

He hates that they talk to us.

It's not like they are trying to please folks that don't care about the game or think it's a scam. That stuff is mostly for those who paid for the content to be shown and talked about week in and week out in the first place. All of which was promised from the kickstarter to backers. Something they continue provide in multiple forms.

The try hard downplaying is amusing though. Mad about a misinterpretation and or making of a new term, something that happens daily in game development.
 

SmartBase

Member
Do I ask about horizontal displacement in the art or programming thread? Probably the latter right? Was hoping to avoid the official forums but my inner graphics whore needs answers.
 

SnowTeeth

Banned
Right?

He hates that they talk to us.

It's not like they are trying to please folks that don't care about the game. Only those who paid for the content to be shown and talked about week in and week out in the first place. That which was promised from the kickstarter to backers to do so. Something they continue to do as promised.


Well, this is the first time a game has been developed in this fashion so it was bound to rub some people the wrong way. CIG are an easy target for those who like to think they know what's best.
 
Well, this is the first time a game has been developed in this fashion so it was bound to rub some people the wrong way. CIG are an easy target for those who like to think they know what's best.

First time or not. The skepticism is quickly bleeding into unbridled hate boners for more then handful of people. Some act like CIG broke into their house and forced them to watch half the stuff they showcase, say or produce. When it's on them to not care to pay attention.

Either way it's not that new of endeavor, game development is still game development. It goes neither fast nor slow at the game communities whim.
 

Akronis

Member
"These people" are excited and confident that their engineers will pull it all off. More often than not what you describe as them "overselling" things is them talking to their existing fanbase and having fun while doing so. You seem very bitter.

Dude literally spends his time in Star Citizen threads complaining about everything, don't even bother responding to him.
 
Dude literally spends his time in Star Citizen threads complaining about everything, don't even bother responding to him.

Also this.

More times then not he talks about SC/CR even in the ED thread. Can't stop himself really. It makes his hate boner harder when CIG shows stuff off.
 

SnowTeeth

Banned
Oh yeah the hate-boners won't subside even with a good amount of blood draining post release. They've got a new hobby - and that's to shit all over SC until the end of time. Let them have their "fun" I guess.
 
Oh yeah the hate-boners won't subside even with a good amount of blood draining post release. They've got a new hobby - and that's to shit all over SC until the end of time. Let them have their "fun" I guess.

When reality hits, boy is it going to hit like a red bull stabbed by a matador. The wave of denial will be legendary, the backtracking unheard of. Because whatever reality comes, i'd more then prepared for it three year ago.
 

KKRT00

Member
This AtV was sex! Cloud system, the lighting omg and PADM is back!

Its completely mindboggling that they manage to do this tech in a year!

----

This game is not using horizontal displacement and it does not need it. They are hardly even doing procedural terrain generation at this point, it is more like procedural modification of existing assets when placing them with editor.
What this means for alien like formations or caves? You can still do them, the difference between this system and something completely procedural is that for example caves will be samey on every the same 'biom'.
It is good and bad system, good because it is artist driven and gives you much more control, bad because much more assets needs to be created than in fully procedural generation, but for Star Citizen this does not matter much, because they need to do only few hundreds planets, not millions.
 

tuxfool

Banned
I may be completely off here, but from my experience, the people who really deserve credits for something spend more time doing things than patting their own backs or shouting from the rooftops about all the things they've done or are about to do.

I suggest you say the same thing in a Naughty Dog technology thread and watch well justified the pile on. This is such a prick attitude .
 

Burny

Member
I suggest you say the same thing in a Naughty Dog technology thread and watch well justified the pile on. This is such a prick attitude .

I'm in little danger of doing any such thing. Naughty Dog, at least what I know of them, are not constantly talking up their own game beyond any reasonable measure while passivly talking down other games ("not like other games" [C.Roberts, Citizencon 2016]). They also somehow tend to release games that just are technically outstanding.

Naughty Dog in comparison to CIG, are actually what I would consider poster people for doing it better than CIG, with my "prick attitude". Less talk, especially self-praise, more results. Starts with producing a bloody talk show, really.


When reality hits, boy is it going to hit like a red bull stabbed by a matador. The wave of denial will be legendary, the backtracking unheard of. Because whatever reality comes, i'd more then prepared for it three year ago.

This is really cute. Why would I go into denial mode "when reality hits"? I perceive Star Citizen currently as being a trainwreck. Should they so happen to release Star Citizen + Squadron 42 and they turn out to be everything they ever promised and then some, why would I not simply admit I was wrong, play the games and be happy about being wrong? Why would I have to backtrack? The only thing I'd have to reevaluate in this case is why and how I came to the conclusion that it's currently such a trainwreck.
 

Akronis

Member
I'm in little danger of doing any such thing. Naughty Dog, at least what I know of them, are not constantly talking up their own game beyond any reasonable measure while passivly talking down other games ("not like other games" [C.Roberts, Citizencon 2016]). They also somehow tend to release games that just are technically outstanding.

Naughty Dog in comparison to CIG, are actually what I would consider poster people for doing it better than CIG, with my "prick attitude". Less talk, especially self-praise, more results. Starts with producing a bloody talk show, really.




This is really cute. Why would I go into denial mode "when reality hits"? I perceive Star Citizen currently as being a trainwreck. Should they so happen to release Star Citizen + Squadron 42 and they turn out to be everything they ever promised and then some, why would I not simply admit I was wrong, play the games and be happy about being wrong? Why would I have to backtrack? The only thing I'd have to reevaluate in this case is why and how I came to the conclusion that it's currently such a trainwreck.

Why do you expend so much effort on something that you clearly don't care about? Wait until it either crashes and burns or releases and then come to the thread.

It seems like literally any news of Star Citizen is on Google Alerts for you to shit on.
 

Zalusithix

Member
I'm in little danger of doing any such thing. Naughty Dog, at least what I know of them, are not constantly talking up their own game beyond any reasonable measure while passivly talking down other games ("not like other games" [C.Roberts, Citizencon 2016]). They also somehow tend to release games that just are technically outstanding.

Naughty Dog in comparison to CIG, are actually what I would consider poster people for doing it better than CIG, with my "prick attitude". Less talk, especially self-praise, more results.

Due to the difference in publishing paradigms, Naughty Dog doesn't have to talk at all. They just need to release games and let marketing do its thing. They only have to communicate to their masters at Sony. CIG can't do that. They have an obligation to keep the community up to date.

Also, if you want talk without excitement for what they're doing, then I'm not particularly sure I'd want to work with/for you. A team effort without a positive outlook on what they're doing would be great for morale. Objectivity has its place and all, but a pure fact's only interaction with the community would be sterile as hell and inherently foster negativity.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Naughty Dog in comparison to CIG, are actually what I would consider poster people for doing it better than CIG, with my "prick attitude". Less talk, especially self-praise, more results. Starts with producing a bloody talk show, really.

People that constantly whine about everything, absolutely engender a negative opinion. Yes, you have a terrible attitude. Take a break, have a drink, lighten up.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
c3z1Dc3.jpg


Seems like an approach that isn't quite as procedural as other approaches and may potentially be much less computationally intensive, depending on how the stitching and reusing of pattern works, while delivering nice looking results. Whenever "Alpha 3.0" or whatever comes around, we'll be able to see for ourselves. Everything shown until then, I would put under tech demo.

Any idea what the red circles are trying to show here? I can't see it. I think I found the source, but it doesn't shed much more light on it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-Thread-v5?p=4466977&viewfull=1#post4466977

Doing an initial procedural generation and then having artists touch things up with procedurally-blended "terrain brushes" seems like a good compromise.

Good question about the efficiency there. I don't think the representation on our client side would have any concept of those brushes - we'd just get the final result.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Any idea what the red circles are trying to show here? I can't see it. I think I found the source, but it doesn't shed much more light on it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-Thread-v5?p=4466977&viewfull=1#post4466977

Doing an initial procedural generation and then having artists touch things up with procedurally-blended "terrain brushes" seems like a good compromise.

Good question about the efficiency there. I don't think the representation on our client side would have any concept of those brushes - we'd just get the final result.

Lol, quoting 1500. This is the guy that was adamant that they couldn't so seamless transition to planets. This is a guy suffers from an extreme case of Dunning Kruger syndrome.

The client doesn't really have a concept of the brushes. Rather it loads data based on patches of land, you actually see the patches when they select the surface in the editor.
 
Someone on reddit pointed out that the lighting on the planet/moon in the background is accurate too. Dang
(crescent keeps pointing toward the star as it moves)
Glorious. Warms my heart, I was just complaining the other day about the static skybox in Infinite Warfare where the sun is right next to the Earth in the sky as viewed from the Moon, and the Earth is like 3/4 full.
 

elyetis

Member
Any idea what the red circles are trying to show here? I can't see it. I think I found the source, but it doesn't shed much more light on it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-Thread-v5?p=4466977&viewfull=1#post4466977

Doing an initial procedural generation and then having artists touch things up with procedurally-blended "terrain brushes" seems like a good compromise.

Good question about the efficiency there. I don't think the representation on our client side would have any concept of those brushes - we'd just get the final result.
Black is one patern red is another one, just a less obvious one.

I honestly find the current ED planetary tech far too "boring" to explore not to think that even if it come at the cost of some repeated patern ( which should be far less obvious from the ground even more so if the assets ( vegetation/rocks/etc ) isn't the same ) Star Citizen solution should end up more interesting.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Glorious. Warms my heart, I was just complaining the other day about the static skybox in Infinite Warfare where the sun is right next to the Earth in the sky as viewed from the Moon, and the Earth is like 3/4 full.

NMS did something weird with the sun, in that it was a point light in the skybox that rotated around all the planets. I suspect IW has to make do with such a skybox, for them it would be pointless to model the sun as a physical object in 3d space.

I also doubt the average player would actually notice.
 

Outrun

Member
People that constantly whine about everything, absolutely engender a negative opinion. Yes, you have a terrible attitude. Take a break, have a drink, lighten up.

In all fairness, I think he is a skeptic.

All long as the conversation is respectful, I don't see a problem with that.
 

tuxfool

Banned
In all fairness, I think he is a skeptic.

All long as the conversation is respectful, I don't see a problem with that.

You can be a skeptic or not, but dude seems like a born whinger. Ask yourself if you'd want to be around people that whine about anything and everything.
 
NMS did something weird with the sun, in that it was a point light in the skybox that rotated around all the planets. I suspect IW has to make do with such a skybox, for them it would be pointless to model the sun as a physical object in 3d space.

I also doubt the average player would actually notice.
I think it's just a texture with a light source. The map is lit in a way that's consistent enough with the position of the sun. Just to be clear, I don't care if COD doesn't model the position of the sun in 3D space. I wouldn't expect them to either. But at least draw the lighting on the Earth portion of the texture in a way that you understand that the Sun is really far away compared to the Earth.
 

Burny

Member
Any idea what the red circles are trying to show here? I can't see it. I think I found the source, but it doesn't shed much more light on it.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-Thread-v5?p=4466977&viewfull=1#post4466977

Doing an initial procedural generation and then having artists touch things up with procedurally-blended "terrain brushes" seems like a good compromise.

Good question about the efficiency there. I don't think the representation on our client side would have any concept of those brushes - we'd just get the final result.


The lower left red circle is misplaced, I think. Can't see a pattern there, but the two red circles to the right show the same landscape pattern. When looking closely, I personally discovered at least one (edit: two) more repeated pattern:


I don't know if the first image originates from the Frontier forums, or somewhere else, but the patterns are visible and have been discussed in CIGs forum.

I'm not sure, if having half-automated placement "brush" tools already counts as procedural generation. That's been done by editors for ages. Most any open world game would probably be procedural by that definition. Moreover, if having an unchanging seed and not generating random results is prerequisite for being "procedural", then such tools may not count as procedural at all. If however not each object's placement and each heightmap detail is stored as level, but rather the "brushstrokes" of the placement tools and the actual game level is then non-randomly generated from that on the fly at the client's side, that may be counted as procedural, but it's somewhat less so, than a solution that also procedurally generates the "brush strokes", as in determines that a mountain or lake has to be in a certain place, how they are shaped etc..

Seems pretty much like a tradeoff from a functional PoV. Store every objects placement, and you have pretty little computation overhead for loading the level. Load everything, render it and you're done. Disadvantage: lots and lots of data for storing everything. At the other end of the spectrum, there's what' Space Engine, NMS and Elite are doing. Generate almost everything procedurally from a seed. Little storage space required, but a large computational overhead for generating the levels. In the end, they're just going for different tradeoffs, each with distinct advantages and disadvantages. Star Citizen seems to lean on the less procedurally generated side, Outerra has a fixed dataset from which it generates the Earth's geometry rather than a seed (edit: for everything, finer detail might use seeds) and any other solutions in between are also imaginable.
 

Zalusithix

Member
they misspelled "precision," therefore Chris Roberts is a buffoon

if he can't even spellcheck his employees, how can he make game?

Without those spelling mistakes how will we verify that something is indeed from CIG? They're like signs of authenticity. Does this slide/image/whatever have a spelling mistake? No? It's fake! =P
 
If they had done it in house it would have been released faster. It would have made more sense if they actually thought about it instead of bragging about it on these videos.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Without those spelling mistakes how will we verify that something is indeed from CIG? They're like signs of authenticity. Does this slide/image/whatever have a spelling mistake? No? It's fake! =P
If they had done it in house it would have been released faster. It would have made more sense if they actually thought about it instead of bragging about it on these videos.

hahahaha


This is what happens what you outsource your spelling, they should have done it in-house and on another engine.

damn you illfoniiiiiiiiiic!


Seriously, though, about that Around the Verse, I hope they make good progress on the cloud tech because they basically look like flat floating textures right now. The sunlight filtering through them looks great, though.
 
Why do you expend so much effort on something that you clearly don't care about? Wait until it either crashes and burns or releases and then come to the thread.

Please. Don't have this mentality. It is a blank shield of everything negative which may be reasonable at times. Don't have the circlejerk thead of "Everything is awesome".

I don't like how CIG champion their tech. It is similar to basics of World Machine's Noise + Erosion at this point. Presenting it as an intelligent solution is just deceiving fans into thinking that there is something special about terrain, it is wrong and I feel even less confident that they are succeeding with the project.
 

tuxfool

Banned
I don't like how CIG champion their tech. It is similar to basics of World Machine's Noise + Erosion at this point. Presenting it as an intelligent solution is just deceiving fans into thinking that there is something special about terrain, it is wrong and I feel even less confident that they are succeeding with the project.

They specifically mentioned that it was inspired by World Machine's solution, only applied to spherical objects. Nobody is deceiving anybody.

I love it when people come into the thread, holier than thou, end up posting nothing but utter crap.
 
It's tough to balance a healthy amount of skepticism and optimism for a game that isn't out yet. It's much easier to maintain an optimistic, hopeful, positive outlook because there is that "there is a lot of time yet" feeling.

At the same time, having a thread that is an echo chamber of positivity is boring and unproductive, too. That's part of the reason why I lurk but don't post too much here--I had/have a bad habit of getting really hyped about games and posting waaay too much about them and have been trying to avoid that lately. SC is what got me interested in the new gen of space games so it has this weird little place in my heart, even though I haven't actually played it in months.

What are y'all skeptical or not happy about with SC so far? Is there anything you hope will change?
 

Zabojnik

Member
What are y'all skeptical or not happy about with SC so far? Is there anything you hope will change?

I'm all about the journey, as long as Squadron 42 (my main interest) delivers. I'm skeptical about the PU coming together in what most people would consider a reasonable time frame. Then again, the sheer ambition of this project is what's so appealing about it, so, again, as long as SQ42 turns out good, I'm okay with waiting.

I enjoy reading both positive and negative / critical comments, preferably from the same poster(s), as having one-sided warriors having a go at each other tends to get old very quickly.

I feel both very invested and yet reasonably detached as far as Star Citizen is concerned. It's a great place to be, actually.
 
It's tough to balance a healthy amount of skepticism and optimism for a game that isn't out yet. It's much easier to maintain an optimistic, hopeful, positive outlook because there is that "there is a lot of time yet" feeling.

At the same time, having a thread that is an echo chamber of positivity is boring and unproductive, too. That's part of the reason why I lurk but don't post too much here--I had/have a bad habit of getting really hyped about games and posting waaay too much about them and have been trying to avoid that lately. SC is what got me interested in the new gen of space games so it has this weird little place in my heart, even though I haven't actually played it in months.

What are y'all skeptical or not happy about with SC so far? Is there anything you hope will change?

Only thing really bothering me right now is the Flight Model. It's not as bad as it was a year ago for sure and it is a lot more playable than it used to be, but I still find it a little awkward. At this point I think it's not so much an issue with the Flight Model directly, but more a disagreement about turning speeds. If the Connie turned a little slower with the smaller fighters being somewhere between where they are now and the Connie's turning speed I'd be real happy with it.

For the first time in a long time I booted AC recently and it was really fun. I had a much better time with it than I have in the past and managed to get some pretty tactical positioning going on in the asteroid field. I guess my point is, what I was most worried about has improved over time to the point where I can enjoy it now, so I'm not too skeptical really. I'm sure they'll iron it out as yet.

Only other things would be minor niggling issues like transitions between local physics grids, but again I imagine they're working on it. My concern there would be just how complex an issue that may actually be, but they must have some solution if they're almost ready to show S42. Oh and satiating my impatience! Every time they do a new stream I get way to anxious to get my hands on that build.
 

jaaz

Member
I can't understand half of what you guys are saying, but I will say something that bothers me about the flight model. The bigger ships don't feel heavy enough when they fly, as if they don't have enough mass for some reason. I'm not necessarily saying to make them slower, even though I understand that's in the cards for 2.6, but rather make them heavier somehow. Like when you're piloting the Starfarer, it should feel like driving a tanker. Not a larger version of the Connie. Anyways, that's my noob attempt at commenting on the flight model.
 

Zalusithix

Member
I can't understand half of what you guys are saying, but I will say something that bothers me about the flight model. The bigger ships don't feel heavy enough when they fly, as if they don't have enough mass for some reason. I'm not necessarily saying to make them slower, even though I understand that's in the cards for 2.6, but rather make them heavier somehow. Like when you're piloting the Starfarer, it should feel like driving a tanker. Not a larger version of the Connie. Anyways, that's my noob attempt at commenting on the flight model.

I think it's worth considering that the Starfarer is empty right now. Nothing in the tanks and nothing in the cargo bay. Tankers IRL can carry approximately twice their dry weight in liquid. Applying similar logic to the Starfarer would put its mass at 3 times what it weighs now when full, and have the same engines moving it. The mass would also be heavily rear loaded and change its center of gravity. That should massively change its handling characteristics. It's going to be interesting to see how handling is managed for the cargo ships in the end. They need massive amounts of thrust to move the sort of cargo they can carry (Hull E says hi!), but at the same time can have no cargo whatsoever.
 

Pomerlaw

Member
About Burny guys, he's pretty critical of ED too. Just have to learn to live with it, everyone needs a little Burny sometimes. I don't think he is out to attack SC, that's just how he is. :)
 

SmartBase

Member
MCorbetta_CIG said:
Hi,
I had horizonal displacement in one of the early prototypes, but was causing complications with collisions and elevation queries, so I took it off; I might look at it again at a later stage...

Good enough for me, it doesn't sound as unattainable as has been suggested.
 

Rondras

Banned
Why every single day that SC has a new video some idiot needs to come here,youtube,etc and say that the game is trash, will never come out,etc? Seriously I don't understand what's wrong with people.. and what if it's the worst game ever? It's our money, not yours, and if you spent your money on it and now you hate it then you should hate yourself, that's how it is.

Seriously leave SC be, nobody was shitting on Last Guardian when the game has been downgraded and is gonna come out after what, 10 years? Please..
 

tuxfool

Banned
Looks like the erosion effect is precomputed.

Of course it is. It is baked into the heightmap and blended on boundaries.

Good enough for me, it doesn't sound as unattainable as has been suggested.

One thing to bear in mind is that the planets aren't dependent on just the heightmaps for terrain. If they so desire they can make bespoke large objects and blend them into the terrain. Obviously it wouldn't be systemic but in locations of interest there are ways around it.
 

atpbx

Member
Well, this is the first time a game has been developed in this fashion so it was bound to rub some people the wrong way. CIG are an easy target for those who like to think they know what's best.

People don't like the unknown, it frightens them.

Lots of people who go on bed wetting rants and epic shit posting missives just don't understand why it's appealing to a lot of people and just want to see it fail because that.

They do the same thing with Warframe, with Destiny (although to be fair, fuck destiny and Luke smith)
 

atpbx

Member
Why every single day that SC has a new video some idiot needs to come here,youtube,etc and say that the game is trash, will never come out,etc? Seriously I don't understand what's wrong with people.. and what if it's the worst game ever? It's our money, not yours, and if you spent your money on it and now you hate it then you should hate yourself, that's how it is.

Seriously leave SC be, nobody was shitting on Last Guardian when the game has been downgraded and is gonna come out after what, 10 years? Please..

People don't like things that are different.

And to be fair, it can seem very much like SC is a bit of a rip of, as the lazy and the stupid just see the hugely expensive game packages, and not the $45 ones.

They see the tiny little aurora or mustang they get for that and think P2W! Rather than equating it to buying ED for the same price and starting off in a sidewinder.
SC is funded by people like you, people like me, who divert money we would only be spending on buying computer games anyway to CIG.

Gaming has been my hobby for 32 years, it's not like I've just fallen off the boat, ive seen vapourware like BC3000 and Daikatana and Duke Nukem and Aliens Colonial Marines et al come and go, and they ALL seemed rotten or off from the get go in a lot of the cases.

I don't get that vibe with CIG, I don't feel like they are lying or deceitful, or incompetent, like the likes of Derek Smart, John Romero or Randy Pitchford have been in the past.

I get the feeling they have said they are going to try and build something really really complicated and, it's turning out to be lot harder than they thought and they are doing their best to get there.
Whether they succeed or not, it's not really important in the grand scheme of things, it's only a game after all, but it's fun to be a part of.
 
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