Man, you have really gone of the edge with this one. I hope you don't get too heartbroken when the game is finally released.
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To the "Destiny 2 looks like DLC" crowd. Why?
- Thread starter StalkerUKCG
- Start date
Man, you have really gone of the edge with this one. I hope you don't get too heartbroken when the game is finally released.
I haven't in the slightest, which is apparent from my posts regarding my expectations which are very even.
Well you can tell yourself that, go head. Rarely have I seen such uncompromising fanboy defence, in all threads. To an even unatural extent, seeing as you haven't even seen much of the game. Well well, I've seen it many times on gaf and other places. Keep at it, I guess.
badnewsbeers
Member
The things you listed are tweaks. Where is the innovation?
I've been vocal in my stance against snap judgements yes, I'm sure that can be a little annoying and if I've been obnoxious or insulting about it I apologise.
I haven't been uncompromising, nor have I been a fanboy about any of this. Go back and read the posts I've made and you'll see for yourself.
yanipheonu
Member
The idea every game needs to reinvent the wheel seems unsustainable.
I love Pokemon, but I won't pretend that isn't the same game every time. Sometimes it's okay if things don't vastly change.
This seems to be devolving into irrational pessimism.
NecromorphTX
Member
Same as The Taken King dlc features list.
If you truly think that, then you don't know what the word fanboy means.
And yes to the rest, except the uncompromising part. Scratch that; I've seen you admit multiple times that Destiny 1 has major flaws. Which then in turn of course should make you much more sceptical about D2, but no, everything is "fine".
Exactly. Especially when the game needed a drastic overhaul at its core.
An effective soft reboot on next gen was always what we were going to get once they realised the foundation they had wasn't sustainable.
As long as it's a great game with enough content in its own right, I really don't understand the fuss.
Then find a a post ITT where I was a fanboy and explain it to me, please.
Destiny 1 had flaws, but they fixed a lot of them with TTK which shows they know what's good for the game. That went a long way in generating faith and good will in the community for a good reason.
Yes, they've made missteps since and will again, but I'm confident that the game itself will be in good shape at launch because they're proven they can learn from their mistakes and listen to the fanbase. I've also read everything they've said about the game and it all adds up to a convincing image.
This belief doesn't make me a fanboy, and neither does any post in any Destiny related thread.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
I don't think so, unless Activision starts fulling embracing the games as a service model similar to Ubisoft
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't think I'm the only person to skip several of their remakes if not entire generations because of this very reason.
X and Y was my first new Pokemon since Ruby and my last since.
yanipheonu
Member
Which you're allowed to. But it doesn't stop those games from being best sellers with a loyal fanbase.
Clearly many people don't have a problem with having the same basic game. Often the devil's in the details. What appears to be "just more Pokemon" is a whole array of new choices and strategies for the actual fanbase.
Perspective goes a long way.
I agree with sentiments that it seems to be all tweaks and no one new huge feature. PERSONALLY for me if they actually show off exploring the new worlds they might earn that huge 2. If they fulfill that "that's all playable space" promise from the D1 reveal, that would do it for me. And from the D2 gameplay reveal, they DID say European Zone is bigger than their biggest map by a power of 2.
Can start with a recent one. What the hell, man. What game's tempo is "fine" for 30 fps? You like, straight up write off the benefits of 60 fps with a simple "fine". This, this is fanboyism.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
I'm honestly surprised there isn't much of an uproar over how samey everything looks. Destiny 1 was a big let down compared to the initial expectations/promises, and the sequel just looks to tweak the formula. Bungie makes really great stuff, but it takes them FOREVER to produce content and I think this sequel should have been pushed out a few years.
Sad thing is, people will buy it in swarms, so the decision to release this year will be vindicated by those at Bungie/Activision who are more interested in chasing money at the expense of delivering a truly mind-blowing sequel, so...
Sad thing is, people will buy it in swarms, so the decision to release this year will be vindicated by those at Bungie/Activision who are more interested in chasing money at the expense of delivering a truly mind-blowing sequel, so...
yanipheonu
Member
Destiny feels great to play even at 30fps. That's not a bizzare thing to say.
A game like Quake wouldn't be because its tempo requires the precision of 60+, but a game like Destiny? It plays fine. Would it be better with 60? Of course it would!
Destiny also has very consistent framepacing and good use of motion blur which make the 30fps experience feel better than a lot of other titles. If it has to be 30fps for whatever reason (and I would always call for 60fps as a standard), Destiny is a good example of how to make 30fps feel good to play.
Of course I'd prefer it to actually be 60, which is why I'll be playing it on PC long-term.
Darkstorne
Member
Interesting example. Sun and Moon were highly praised for shaking up the core formula that many people believed to have grown stale, and is on track to become one of the best selling entries in the series as a result =P
I do get where you're coming from though. Destiny is very popular, so for a lot of existing Destiny fans "more of the same" seems fine. Excellent even. It's lapsed fans who wanted something more, or people who were never won over at all by the first game, that are feeling underwhelmed at how similar it is. And very few sequels are as similar as this, I think it's impossible to argue against that (I'm not saying that's objectively bad though).
Nonsense. TTK had 8 story missions, 3 new strikes (one being PS+ exclusive) and a handful of PVP maps.
We know there's at least 20 new story missions in Destiny 2. And I think it's safe to assume the number of strikes will at least match Destiny 1s launch.
I don't think it "looks like DLC" and I'm not entirely sure what that means.
But I will say this. Destiny 2 looks like a sequel made specifically for people who enjoyed Destiny. That's fine, and that audience is probably big enough for Activision/Bungie. However, myself and plenty of other people really didn't like Destiny. It was a massive disappointment for a lot of us. I think a lot of people wanted or were expecting Destiny 2 to try to win us over, and that's clearly not the case. I wasn't expecting that so I'm not really disappointed, but I can see why a lot of people are. Sadly, it's hard for people a lot of people to articulate their thoughts and they come up with dumb complaints like "looks like DLC" in order to voice their disappointment.
Also, 30 FPS is fine and the game looks fine. If people cared about that technical shit they'd buy a PC (which they can now play Destiny 2 on). Acting like that's the issue driving a wedge between people who are pro-Destiny 2 and anti-Destiny 2 is completely disingenuous.
But I will say this. Destiny 2 looks like a sequel made specifically for people who enjoyed Destiny. That's fine, and that audience is probably big enough for Activision/Bungie. However, myself and plenty of other people really didn't like Destiny. It was a massive disappointment for a lot of us. I think a lot of people wanted or were expecting Destiny 2 to try to win us over, and that's clearly not the case. I wasn't expecting that so I'm not really disappointed, but I can see why a lot of people are. Sadly, it's hard for people a lot of people to articulate their thoughts and they come up with dumb complaints like "looks like DLC" in order to voice their disappointment.
Also, 30 FPS is fine and the game looks fine. If people cared about that technical shit they'd buy a PC (which they can now play Destiny 2 on). Acting like that's the issue driving a wedge between people who are pro-Destiny 2 and anti-Destiny 2 is completely disingenuous.
A really reasonable voice of dissent. And a much better way to phrase the disappointment of the familiarity we're seeing than "it looks like DLC".
veloxStrix
Banned
Hi, Devil's advocate here. Destiny did have remarkably low input latency for a 30fps game. That lead to it feeling better than some 60fps games that came out on console and I can understand how people could feel that it ending up at 30 again would be fine.
Although I fully intend to get the game on PC so that I can - hopefully - run it at 144.
I think a BIG thing is that the people burned on content were expecting the transition to the new engine to result in content being created easier and faster. And they wanted the confrence to highlight or address that concern of why most of Destiny 1 was adding DLC content that was lost in the original release concept.
The fact that everything looks too familiar, the fact that there are a lot of remixed and reused assets/concepts, and most new additions promoted in the event not giving the impression that they couldn't have been done in the previous entry; kind of makes people ask 1: WTF were they doing for those 3 years, and 2: WTF was the new engine migration used for, why did we lose our gear technically?
One of the main things the beggining of the conference should have addressed is "Why Destiny 2 (from a technical standpoint)?" They didn't do that. It was "Destiny 2, GET HYPE, btw the community is awesome!"
The fact that everything looks too familiar, the fact that there are a lot of remixed and reused assets/concepts, and most new additions promoted in the event not giving the impression that they couldn't have been done in the previous entry; kind of makes people ask 1: WTF were they doing for those 3 years, and 2: WTF was the new engine migration used for, why did we lose our gear technically?
One of the main things the beggining of the conference should have addressed is "Why Destiny 2 (from a technical standpoint)?" They didn't do that. It was "Destiny 2, GET HYPE, btw the community is awesome!"
Here's the competition:
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/patch-notes/
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/patch-notes/
Didn't they have to rebuild it all over the 3 years?
Darkstorne
Member
Yeah content is still the biggest question but also the hardest thing for them to convince us of. They can promise regular content update with big additions to the game, but they'd be relying on us all believing them, and where content is concenred they absolutely haven't earned trust from most of us.
E3 is a big opportunity for them to try and convince us it's better this time around, but certainly announcing only 4 planets at launch again, a huge criticism of D1, is like Bungie putting obstacles in their own path here. My other BIG concern with this is even on their pre-order page if you look at the description for the expansion pass it details the expansions providing "new story missions, strikes, raids, and PVP content". It says absolutely nothing about new explorable locations, which is giving me serious concerns that they're about to repeat exactly the same damn mistakes as D1. 4 planets at launch, bugger all else for years.
The idea that weve reach the the pinnacle of innovation and creativity, or at least are on the precipice of it, with Destiny of all games no less, is one of the most laughable things I have ever seen used to defend anything.
Also talk about strawman with your pokemon example.
Earlier DLCs were okay, but the game still had fundamental issues.
TTK was a huge boost in faith, a justified one. RoI was a decent DLC, nothing amazing in comparison to TTK but certainly not bad or substandard.
I mean, they could botch it entirely, but do you really think they'll forget all they've learnt?
Twilight Gap
Member
They originally planned to do something a bit more akin to an MMO, and word has it that their modified engine will allow them to drop in content (new and old) more in line with their original vision for the game. To facilitate that, D2 had to be a "reboot", so it is a blank slate and for all intents and purposes a new game with completely new content.
I didn't think it played great, especially in pvp. And as you can tell, tons of people are disappointed by it not being 60 (especially in PVP).
Of course Quake needs higher framerate even more than Destiny (I would argue 60 isn't fine for a game like Quake these days, I think it needs more).
But to write off criticism with a simple "its fine" is fanboyism.
Yes. But to write off pretty much all and any criticism and not even entertain the idea that a game isn't looking all that hot despite a huge community of people, nonfans and fans alike not really feeling the game ... that is fanboyism, not just liking a game.¯_(ツ_/ ¯ Is it even possible people can be fans of a game, even with its flaws?
I didn't write off criticism with an "it's fine" I gave my opinion that it's fine, for me, in my opinion.
I can see how many wouldn't be happy, I get that.
I'm honestly surprised there isn't much of an uproar over how samey everything looks. Destiny 1 was a big let down compared to the initial expectations/promises, and the sequel just looks to tweak the formula. Bungie makes really great stuff, but it takes them FOREVER to produce content and I think this sequel should have been pushed out a few years.
Sad thing is, people will buy it in swarms, so the decision to release this year will be vindicated by those at Bungie/Activision who are more interested in chasing money at the expense of delivering a truly mind-blowing sequel, so...
Your comment is super frustrating because youre angry people aren't angry about the state of Destiny 2... without offering what it should have been instead.
Like what did you expect from a sequel to Destiny that they havent addressed yet?
Complaints about Vanilla Destiny:
- lack of any interesting campaign (they addressed it)
- lack of characters or a story (they addressed it)
- lack of anything meaningful to do in the environments (they addressed it)
- lack of any diversity in encounters (they addressed it)
- lack of matchmaking for end game activities (they addressed it)
- lack of social features (they addressed it)
- loot and "the grind" are unforgiving (they fixed this a long time ago, and its only gotten better)
Praise for Vanilla Destiny:
- movement and gunplay are awesome (they kept it)
- enemies and art direction are awesome (they kept them)
- raids are really cool (they kept them)
- music is really good (they fired Marty, lol)
I try really hard not to tip over into Bungie apologist mode, but a ton of people have this sense of what Destiny *should* be and how they know better than Bungie does. Meanwhile Bungie is playing the game they made alongside the people who do like it, and addressing a lot of the totally valid criticism they got.
What are they delivering at the expense of? What are they doing wrong?
I guess most of this stuff was introduced in each of the paid expansions in Destiny 1. New loot, new areas, nem PvP maps, new strikes and raids, new currencies were all available in most(if not all) of previous DLc.
That's why I think D2, from the reveal so far, tickles the "could've been dlc" bones.
veloxStrix
Banned
I'm actually really tired of hopping into random debates between people, but some of these posts are fairly aggressive and high-handed despite being pretty dumb.
The term "reinventing the wheel" doesn't even imply reaching a pinnacle of innovation or creativity. Nor did the person you are quoting say anything about a pinnacle so I'm kind of confused by how you got there on your own. Uber, I guess. Destiny has a large and dedicated fanbase even years after release. The idea that Bungie and Activision would rather cater to guaranteed numbers rather than chasing a whole new market doesn't seem too laughable.
Strawman -"an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."
Comparing Pokemon, a series known for its relative lack of changes with Destiny 2 - a game where people have been confused and concerned by its seeming lack of changes relative to other sequels - doesn't seem very misrepresentative or unrelated to the argument at hand. User 1 asks where the innovation is, User 2 gives an example of a series that doesn't innovate in a traditional manner, and then User 3 comes in and throw around the logic fallacies they learned in high school. Which one of these is the odd one out...
yanipheonu
Member
Wait, did you just misconstrue accepting a series as iterative with me making do with Destiny as the "pinnacle of innovation" ?
In no way do I imply Destiny 2 as some pinnacle of innovation that will not be surpassed.
That, my friend, is a straw man fallacy.
Comparing two games series with iterative updates each sequel is what we call an "apt comparison."
It is odd to answer someones argument on a matter, with just a differing opinion, and state it as an argument. You could've just written "I think it plays fine at 30", but you wrote "it IS fine". Both the way you expressed yourself, and the fact that you answered and countered another poster, really doesn't make it seem like you "gave your opinion".
Also, I remember another post, where you said it is straight up rediculous to ask for more than 3 classes. Rediculous, really? You mean it's rediculous to ask for something that almost all other MMO/RPG style games add in sequels since the dawn of games? Yeh. Not a fanboy.
Missingnomer
Member
Destiny 2 seems to be content with their current fans, which is okay, I guess. They do have a lot of players. I just feel kind of left out being a person who didn't really enjoy the Taken King expansion. There is no reason for me to get Destiny 2.
They aimed it at fans, and getting old/new players into Destiny 2 wasn't their top priority. At least, that is what I took away from the reveal.
They aimed it at fans, and getting old/new players into Destiny 2 wasn't their top priority. At least, that is what I took away from the reveal.
Right, because in my opinion Destiny is fine at 30fps. It would be better at 60, but it's fine at 30.
I really don't get your problem here.
I didn't ever say it was straight up ridiculous to ask for more than 3 classes. No, you're making things up now or you're very confused.
Right, because in my opinion Destiny is fine at 30fps. It would be better at 60, but it's fine at 30.
I really don't get your problem here.
I didn't ever say it was straight up ridiculous to ask for 3 classes. No, you're making things up now or you're very confused.
Well it wasn't clear, and I explained in great detail why.
That post:
Rediculous to suggest otherwise, that choice of word.
It's obviously my opinion. I have no idea what you're doing here anymore...
And again, I didn't say asking for more than 3 classes is ridiculous.
You need to read that comment again.
And again, I didn't say asking for more than 3 classes is ridiculous.
You need to read that comment again.
Unsustainable reinventing the wheel....Like where in this thread did anyone call for reinventing the wheel, please show me. Asking for innovation is not asking for reinventing the wheel and calling that a model that is not sustainable is laughable. Again, point me to where all these posts are asking for destiny to become a totally different game. Because Most people haven't done that, theyve asked for more innovation.
Strawman, the fact you pulled the definition and failed to understand how its applied to a game no one is talking about is beyond me. No one was saying every sequel to every game innovates or reinvents the wheel, which is where the strawman came from. Hes asserting that because some sequels don't also do much to add innovation, that its ok for destiny, but no one was saying that was the case or making that argument to begin with. Hes knocking down an argument no one was having.
No I was talking about the fact that you said its impossible to reinvent the wheel with every sequel but next to no one here is asking for that, theyre asking for innovation.
Your pokemon example, that not every game reinvents the wheel, is a strawman because no one was arguing that that was the case.
Ok, you said exactly what you said. And that's what I would call a fanboy statement. So now you have two examples. Whatever though, this is off topic, but you asked for it so.
There's nothing fanboy about saying Bungie's design philosophy is valid.
You're free to think it's shit, but a game based around 3 classes is totally reasonable if there's enough content to justify it.
The PvP number is weird, it's completely out of alignment with everything else.
Classes - 3
Fireteam - 3
Raids - 6
I really was hoping for larger scale battles, not smaller.
yanipheonu
Member
0_0 This argument is so flawed I'm actually stunned.
You know when someone says something "is fine" or "is good" it's implied that is an opinion, right?
Unless you think people can only say something is good or fine if it's empirically true. Which is impossible.
This is English 101 stuff.