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[King Gilga]

I mean he was he head of Ukip no? So like no shit?

This Donald Tusk guy seems like a class act.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Not quite, and that's one heck of a simplifying of reality to push your narrative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

All civic nationalism, huh? Sounds like a UKIP talking point. Surely you know something about the history of the SNP and how it formed? Don't pretend like the NPS was the sole source of members from the initial merger. Pre-Salmond the SNP had a lot of outspoken right-wing Scottish nationalists that they've tried to marginalise since. They were also viewed as almost a universally sectarian Protestant party, something Salmond hand waves here by basically saying Labour were so good with Catholics that there was nothing left.

The SNP is a coalition of vaguely centre-left to right-wing nationalists with a few populists in front and it shows in their base. Only a fool would suggest otherwise.

 

[whyamihere]

I like how there was already the attempt at blackmail over intelligence on day 1.

Gonna be a fun 2 years.

 

[Pandy]

UK is out. there is no way to rescind this procedure. UK will have to rejoin which will take decades (think turkey)

unless US, UK and russia form a new world order alliance (with UK being an annexure to US)

That's not strictly accurate. Nor is it strictly inaccurate. It's not specified properly in the legislation either way, so legally no one really knows.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39291512

At the end of the day the only thing stopping us from changing our minds is the Westminster Government. The EU are likely to be annoyed, but not refuse.

...Only a fool would suggest otherwise...

Debating 101. Hilarious.

 

[tuxfool]

This Donald Tusk guy seems like a class act.

The Polish far right hate him. Of course he is a class act.

 

[AlexFlame116]

I admire your restraint.

Haha! Gotta start small right?

I usually don't have a list of people I don't like cause I don't feel good about the fact that there are others out there who I can't try to get along with.

But recently I've been seeing differently. So when I say I don't like someone, I REALLY don't like them at all.

Yeah it's super naive I know. Can't help it!

 

[Pancake Mix]

Debating 101. Hilarious.

It's pretty much a fact that the SNP is a broad coalition. I'm justified in that statement, though I don't think Audioboxer would argue otherwise.

 

[Earthbound64]

Speaking of the S*n's front pages

And all the other people mentioning that "paper" as well:

 

[Pandy]

It's pretty much a fact that the SNP is a broad coalition. I'm justified in that statement, though I don't think Audioboxer would argue otherwise.

A broad coalition? Hard to argue with.
From centre-left to right-wing nationalists? Pretty fucking strange place to draw the lines. Pull the other one.

 

[Joni]

Well, that security threat is a good reason to stop border checks to the UK. We need thatl manpower to search terrorists.

Well guess what, you're in one. A currency union without a fiscal union is stupid.

So you admit you're on a sinking ship. Well, good luck going down with it.

 

[Haunted]

I just hope Scotland isn't planning to go down along with the UK. There's still time to save yourselves and stay in the EU, friends. Fingers crossed for that referendum.

 

[SteveWD40]

I just hope Scotland isn't planning to go down along with the UK. There's still time to save yourselves and stay in the EU, friends. Fingers crossed for that referendum.

It's not that simple, the EU have made it clear Scotland would not be a shoe in, could be years (and years) of uncertainty before they got membership, which is not a given.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Speaking of the Sun's front pages, tomorrows is especially gross..

You have to admire this in a perverse kind of way, they know Brexit is going to be a shitfest so they are doing everything they can to frame the negative fallout as the EU not wanting to security and putting British lives at risk.

The narrative is forming and it's going in directions no-one could have imagined.

 

[Kareha]

I just hope Scotland isn't planning to go down along with the UK. There's still time to save yourselves and stay in the EU, friends. Fingers crossed for that referendum.

Scotland already had their referendum and the majority voted to stay, plus it's up to Westminster if they get another one anyway.

 

[PdotMichael]

You have to admire this in a perverse kind of way, they know Brexit is going to be a shitfest so they are doing everything they can to frame the negative fallout as the EU not wanting to security and putting British lives at risk.

The narrative is forming and it's going in directions no-one could have imagined.

Well, we are seeing the narrative in this thread already.

 

[PJV3]

It's not that simple, the EU have made it clear Scotland would not be a shoe in, could be years (and years) of uncertainty before they got membership, which is not a given.

I don't know, it's probably just political niceties regarding a sovereign UK, if Scotland left It would probably change to reflect the new reality.

 

[Lagamorph]

I don't know, it's probably just political niceties regarding a sovereign UK, if Scotland left It would probably change to reflect the new reality.

No, it's actual EU laws around membership, not political niceties. Change to reflect the new reality would require a change in EU law. That would take even longer than the standard membership application process.

 

[Protome]

Scotland already had their referendum and the majority voted to stay, plus it's up to Westminster if they get another one anyway.

Circumstances change, we also voted to stay in the EU. Westminster isn't going to block a referendum forever, probably just until Brexit has happened.

 

[PJV3]

No, it's actual EU laws around membership, not political niceties. Change to reflect the new reality would require a change in EU law. That would take even longer than the standard membership application process.

Fair enough, I wasn't expecting them to back in after 6 months or anything, I just don't see Europe dragging its feet over an already independent Scotland.

 

[Veidt]

It's not that simple, the EU have made it clear Scotland would not be a shoe in, could be years (and years) of uncertainty before they got membership, which is not a given.

Pretty sure the EU is saying that because it likes to be polite. As soon as Scotland leaves, they'll get a huge basket of friendship right at their door.
Obviously the law will be adhered to, but don't expect it to be a difficult admission.

 

[daviyoung]

You have to admire this in a perverse kind of way, they know Brexit is going to be a shitfest so they are doing everything they can to frame the negative fallout as the EU not wanting to security and putting British lives at risk.

The narrative is forming and it's going in directions no-one could have imagined.

It's obviously talking about EU lives there

 

[Lagamorph]

Pretty sure the EU is saying that because it likes to be polite. As soon as Scotland leaves, they'll get a huge basket of friendship right at their door.
Obviously the law will be adhered to, but don't expect it to be a difficult admission.

Another issue is that there are several other countries ahead of Scotland in the membership queue. It'd seriously​ piss them off if Scotland got to jump ahead of them 'just because'

 

[jimbobsmells]

You have to admire this in a perverse kind of way, they know Brexit is going to be a shitfest so they are doing everything they can to frame the negative fallout as the EU not wanting to security and putting British lives at risk.

The narrative is forming and it's going in directions no-one could have imagined.

I think most of us saw it coming a mile off.
Even when we're out of the EU, you gotta blame the EU.

 

[PJV3]

Another issue is that there are several other countries ahead of Scotland in the membership queue. It'd seriously​ piss them off if Scotland got to jump ahead of them 'just because'

A former member being dragged out against its will is hardly just because. It's an already compliant and stable country that will be a benefit political wise to the union.


Ireland would also look less lonely on the maps(not a serious point)

 

[Bananajama]

I like the Sun for the Sports section though

They actually go lower than the Premiership!

I buy it once every 365 days though.

Usually when I'm travelling and need the scores and have no internet access

 

[Protome]

A former member being dragged out against its will is hardly just because. It's an already compliant and stable country that will be a benefit political wise to the union.


Ireland would also look less lonely on the maps(not a serious point)

Not sure this is accurate. We wouldnt get the exemptions the UK has, so surely we wouldn't be compliant?

 

[RalchAC]

Pretty sure the EU is saying that because it likes to be polite. As soon as Scotland leaves, they'll get a huge basket of friendship right at their door.
Obviously the law will be adhered to, but don't expect it to be a difficult admission.

The Spanish President is willing to make the problem much more painful that it should because of their stance regarding a potential independence of Catalonia.

They don't want to make it look "easy" in order to set an example.

 

[PJV3]

Not sure this is accurate. We wouldnt get the exemptions the UK has, so surely we wouldn't be compliant?

To be honest I may be assuming too much, that like the UK result there would a period of negotiation between Scotland and Westminster and then a leaving date would be set.

So there would be a few years to get things like currency sorted with the EU before Scotland even became independent let alone a member of the EU. If it is quicker than I'm imagining then yeah the years to join are going to be tough.

 

[Lucreto]

It would be easier for them to join as most of the EU rules and regulations are already enforced in Scotland. Its a long process as countries have to change their laws but in Scotlands case they are in place.

But those talks won't start until after Brexit but can negotiated a deal with Europe as part of leave UK campaign.

 

[RocknRola]

The Spanish President is willing to make the problem much more painful that it should because of their stance regarding a potential independence of Catalonia.

They don't want to make it look "easy" in order to set an example.

Those days won't last forever. There is only so much they can do internally to stop Catalonia (and other regions) from fighting for their independence. One day, be it tomorrow or 50 years from now, that will end.

 

[Protome]

To be honest I may be assuming too much, that like the UK result there would a period of negotiation between Scotland and Westminster and then a leaving date would be set.

So there would be a few years to get things like currency sorted with the EU before Scotland even became independent let alone a member of the EU.

That's fair. The last referendum set around a year or so for negotiations after a Yes vote I believe but it wasn't a strict deadline, it was more Salmond trying to convince people itd be a relatively quick process.

The Spanish President is willing to make the problem much more painful that it should because of their stance regarding a potential independence of Catalonia.

They don't want to make it look "easy" in order to set an example.

Have I missed something in the last month or so where this was confirmed? Or is it just hearsay still?

 

[Pixieking]

Have I missed something in the last month or so where this was confirmed? Or is it just hearsay still?

As Scotland relaunches its independence bid, Catalonia has its own plan

”The Scottish way is the way we want to follow," said Carles Puigdemont, president of the government of Catalonia, a region in the northeastern corner of Spain. Puigdemont spoke to Today's WorldView during a visit to Washington and likened Catalonia's independence aspirations to those in Scotland. ”Catalonia and Scotland are very different, of course, but our demands are the same. We want to vote in a referendum for independence."

...

Puigdemont, like other Catalan nationalists, paints a picture of an independent state that fits seamlessly into the European Union, is open to immigrants, is welcoming to refugees and is a close partner to a separate but friendly Spain.

”We have no problem with Spaniards. We have nothing against Spain," Puigdemont said. "We have a problem against the Spanish state and the Spanish political system." It's safe to say that the feeling is mutual.

 

[Veidt]

Scotland is in a union of nations. Voluntary union as far as everyone is concerned. Scotland can leave the union, by its own will. Catalonia can not.

 

[Funky Papa]

Puigdemont is still living in fantasy land. Not content with pissing off a number of European officials with his antics, he keeps trying to tie Catalonia's referendum to Scotland even after Scottish nationalists have told Rajoy that they are willing to change their stance from supportive to neutral in order not to get vetoed.

Spain says independent Scotland would be at back of the EU queue.
Spain to Scotland: You're not special

And the EU has already said that despite Puigdemont's outlandish claims, Catalonia would have to apply for membership and start at the back of the queue. To that point, Germany backs Spain's Catalonia position, Scottish comparison avoided.

The thing with Catalonian separatists is that they tend to conflate support for the referendum (which is high) with support for independence (which is lower than 50%) in a glaring exercise of dishonesty. Further, Puigdemont pretends that an independent Catalonia would magically show up in the EU as a de facto member, which cannot happen for a number of legal reasons. This basically throws his push for independence off the tracks. But he needs to pretend it doesn't. Spanish politics and politicians continue to operate at kindergarten level

 

[Veidt]

So the EU is siding with Spain on the Catalonia question now? So now Spain can go back to not being worried about Scotland's independence?
And people were saying Scotland wouldn't get special treatment. The EU just put a stop to the whole Catalonia comparison. Whoops.

Tusk was not impressed yesterday, the EU is coming for blood. Brexiteers aren't ready for this.

 

[Funky Papa]

So the EU is siding with Spain on the Catalonia question now? So now Spain can go back to not being worried about Scotland's independence?
And people were saying Scotland wouldn't get special treatment. The EU just put a stop to the whole Catalonia comparison. Whoops.

It won't get preferential treatment. The EU said that Scotland needs to start from 0. That's not preferential at all. That's standard. That also goes for Catalonia, which is being warned beforehand about their case being very different from Scotland since separatists can't stop disingenuously comparing the situation.

 

[Veidt]

But the secession comparison is no longer there right? I'm sleep deprived so I may be thinking like a dumb dumb.

 

[PJV3]

But the secession comparison is no longer there right? I'm sleep deprived so I may be thinking like a dumb dumb.

That's how I read it, and Scotland won't get any favours or obstacles thrown their way, which isn't too bad depending on the timing of various issues.

 

[Xando]

But the secession comparison is no longer there right? I'm sleep deprived so I may be thinking like a dumb dumb.

Both Spain and the UK has declined a indy referendum (atleast for now). There isn't really a difference between Scotland and Catalonia. Both are secession movements that want to join the EU.

Now Scotland (and Catalonia) would already be mostly on point with what the EU requires but they still have to go through the process like everyone else.

We know Catalonia will never get in the EU because it would get vetoed by Spain. As far as it looks at the moment Scotland would be able to get in but it obviously wouldn't just get into the EU without any talks before.

Scottish EU entry would probably be faster than others but that is down to the fact that it already is/was a EU country

 

[Funky Papa]

But the secession comparison is no longer there right? I'm sleep deprived so I may be thinking like a dumb dumb.

Scotland wouldn't be blocked, but it would have to apply for membership and follow the procedure, which means several years of talks and legalese. It basically turns into another European country without member status.

Both Spain and the UK has declined a indy referendum (atleast for now). There isn't really a differebce between Scotland and Catalonia. Both are secession movements that want to join the EU.

Now Scotland (and Catalonia) would already be mostly on point with what the EU requires but they still have to go through the process like everyone else.

We know Catalonia will never get in the EU because it would get vetoed by Spain. As far as it looks at the moment Scotland would be able to get in but it obviously wouldn't just get into the EU without any talks before.

Scottish EU entry would probably be faster than others but that is down to the fact that it already is/was a EU country

There's a huge difference between Catalonia and Scotland: Scotland is part of a union and can legally request to go solo at any moment, whereas Catalonia is a region of a country and separatists are trying to seccede unilaterally, which is a huge no-no for a number of European countries.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Well, we are seeing the narrative in this thread already.

I didn't see the security narrative coming. Plays nicely into the taking back control narrative.

It's obviously talking about EU lives there

To reasonable people. To others, they'll see it as the EU threatening the UK's security by not offering a good deal.

I think most of us saw it coming a mile off.
Even when we're out of the EU, you gotta blame the EU.

I meant the security aspect. We all knew they'd blame the EU for everything. It's like immigration chicken, there's no such thing as fucking it too much.

 

[PJV3]

Scotland wouldn't be blocked, but it would have to apply for membership and follow the procedure, which means several years of talks and legalese. It basically turns into another European country without member status.

I can't find a hard number probably because it hasn't happened before, what is the fastest a country like Scotland could go through the process?. On the EU site it is all about getting a country ready law wise etc.

 

[SporeCrawler]

That's not strictly accurate. Nor is it strictly inaccurate. It's not specified properly in the legislation either way, so legally no one really knows.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39291512

At the end of the day the only thing stopping us from changing our minds is the Westminster Government. The EU are likely to be annoyed, but not refuse.


Debating 101. Hilarious.

its not in the treaty so there is no way to rescind. If all memberstates agree they can change the procedure of course

 

[PJV3]

its not in the treaty so there is no way to rescind. If all memberstates agree they can change the procedure of course

I thought that only applied to extending talks, cancellation is really vague depending on the interpretation of "constitutional requirements".

 

[Lagamorph]

The thing with saying that Scotland should be fine as they meet all the criteria already is that they meet those criteria whilst part of the UK, but there's no guarantees that uncertainty/instability means they'll meet those criteria right away when independent, economic criteria especially. During the last referendum I believe Scotland was a net contributor to the Barnett formula, but right now it's actually a beneficiary.
Isn't Scotland's defect quite large too and essentially seen as unsustainable under current spending if Scotland were independent?

its not in the treaty so there is no way to rescind. If all memberstates agree they can change the procedure of course

It's not in the treaty that it can't be cancelled either, that's why nobody really knows for sure.
The person who wrote Article 50 believes it can be rescinded though.

 

[Funky Papa]

I can't find a hard number probably because it hasn't happened before, what is the fastest a country like Scotland could go through the process?. On the EU site it is all about getting a country ready law wise etc.

The youngest member state is Croatia, which required about 10 years from application to member status without accounting for previous work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Timeline

Serbia aimed for a record 4 years, but they are still on it.

The thing with saying that Scotland should be fine as they meet all the criteria already is that they meet those criteria whilst part of the UK, but there's no guarantees that uncertainty/instability means they'll meet those criteria right away when independent, economic criteria especially.

This is the most salient bit. Legally speaking Scotland could have half of the work cut out for them, but there are many other aspects that they'd need to be worked out, particularly in regards to the economy. Plus, other aspiring countries wouldn't accept Scotland being fast tracked so cheerly.

 

[Pandy]

Here's a Spanish MEP from Partido Popular saying they aren't thinking of a veto because the situation is "very, very, very different" to Catalonia.
https://youtu.be/XYIMvEvmwSs

But let's get hung up on the word "procedure" and pretend that it'll be a long drawn out process.

Oh, hello, Mr. Brok:
https://youtu.be/eQzm0FXXerM
"...there's not much to negotiate..."
It's just another strawman thrown together hastily by Unionists struggling to deal with reality. No one says it's going to be an instant process, the biggest threat to it is allowing the UK to alter legislation applying to Scotland so it no longer complies with EU legislation.

I think the politically if the chain of EU membership can't be maintained completely then the best option for an independent Scotland would be to very quickly agree an EFTA (Norway) deal, and then hold an EU referendum before applying for full-membership.

To step away from the Scottish side of things, I see Merkel has ruled out parallel negotiations. May's masterplan is going well, then.

its not in the treaty so there is no way to rescind. If all memberstates agree they can change the procedure of course

It's not in the treaty that it isn't rescindable either, it's a deliberately crappy bit of legislation that the writers didn't think anyone in their right mind would use. Either way, your second point is the relevant one. No country is yet at the point that they would refuse the UK re-entry, and if required they'd quickly re-write the rules to accommodate a u-turn.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Posted? Lloyds of London will open up an office in brussels.

 

[Auraela]

Funny thing is if scotland leaves and joins eu the narrative will just chaange to bloody scotland letting all the immigrants over


Not funny as such but you know thats where the shit will fly if it happens

 

[Xando]

To step away from the Scottish side of things, I see Merkel has ruled out parallel negotiations. May's masterplan is going well, then.

France did aswell.

No good cop/bad cop negotiations like with Greece.

Funny thing is if scotland leaves and joins eu the narrative will just chaange to bloody scotland letting all the immigrants over


Not funny as such but you know thats where the shit will fly if it happens

Best thing about Brexit is that we don't have to care anymore about what British eurosceptics or British media has to say